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Updated 23 August, 8.30am
IT IS HARD to strip away the emotion which pervades the debate about abortion, making it one of the most divisive issues in Ireland of the past 25 years.
The legalities surrounding abortion services were propelled into the spotlight in 1992 when the X Case was heard in both the High Court and the Supreme Court.
Usually not a country of protesters, Ireland saw thousands of people take to the streets divided into two camps – pro-life/anti-abortion and pro-choice.
The Supreme Court ruling eventually led to multiple constitutional referendums, numerous expert groups and further cases in the European Court of Human Rights.
Last year, the government of the day legislated for the 1992 Supreme Court ruling, a move avoided by all of its predecessors.
But far from putting the debate to bed, the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act has kick-started the arguments again. Less than a year since its implementation, the new laws have been criticised by both pro-choice and pro-life groups.
The new uproar comes after a young, asylum-seeking woman who said she was raped and suicidal had her pregnancy terminated with a Caesarean section. The baby, born at just 25 weeks, is said to be doing well in hospital.
TheJournal.ie has been following the debate from all angles, featuring columns from both sides. However, the peculiarities of certain cases and various legal wranglings can confuse the matter and lead to much misinformation being spread. Here we aim to provide details of the legal aspects of abortion in Ireland in a dispassionate and factual manner.
First off, abortion is illegal in Ireland.
The only exception is when there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother. This includes a risk arising from a threat of suicide, which was initially allowed for under legal precedent set by a 1992 Supreme Court ruling in what was widely known as the X Case. In 2013, the government legislated for this ruling with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.
In the subsequent guidance for medical practitioners, hospital doctors are told to fulfill a number of requirements before certifying an abortion. In the case of a physical illness to the pregnant woman, two doctors must sign off on a termination, jointly certifying that there is a real and substantial risk of loss of her life and that this risk can only be averted by a termination of pregnancy.
They both also need to confirm that they have had, in good faith, “regard to the need to preserve unborn human life where practical”.
In the case where there is a risk to life because of suicidal intent, more requirements are necessitated by law.
Three doctors – two psychiatrists and an obstetrician – must examine the woman and jointly decide that there is a risk to her life that can only be averted by a termination of the pregnancy, having regard to the need to preserve unborn human life.
One of the psychiatrists is seen first. If he/she believes the woman’s condition “satisfies the requirement of the Act”, then she will see the second psychiatrist who must agree with the first if an obstetrician is to become involved.
The Health Service Executive said it can ensure this process happens in a “timely manner”.
It is illegal in Ireland to have an abortion in the case of lethal foetal abnormality. It is also illegal to carry out an abortion in cases of rape and incest.
Abortion information and travelling abroad
It is completely legal to provide information to people in Ireland about abortion services abroad. However, this is subject to strict conditions as set out in the 1995 Abortion Information Act. The Act does not permit just anyone to give information on abortion and lays down rules for those people or agencies who do provide it.
Names and addresses of abortion clinics abroad may be made available by doctors, specific agencies or individual counsellors. The rules apply to all providers of information but a distinction is made between information that is provided for the general public and information that is made available directly to a pregnant woman by a doctor or an advisory service.
It is also legal for women to travel abroad to avail of abortion services. A doctor in Ireland then has a duty to provide care, support and follow-up services for those women on their return.
However, it is illegal for a doctor or a one-to-one counsellor to encourage or advocate an abortion in individual cases. It is also unlawful for a doctor to make an appointment with a clinic on behalf of a pregnant woman.
Figures released by the Department of Health in the UK showed that more than 3,500 women gave Irish addresses when attending clinics in England and Wales to have terminations during 2010.
Referendums
On 7 October 1983, the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution was passed by the Irish electorate. It provided for the State’s acknowledgement of the right to life of the unborn with equal regard to the right to life of the mother.
It effectively brought in a constitutional ban on abortion ever being legalised in Ireland. It ensured that any changes to the legal status of abortions (for any reason) would have to be put to the people and could not simply be completed at Government level.
Current arrangements around abortion services in Ireland stem not only from the Supreme Court ruling in the X Case but also from subsequent referendums.
Ireland has never voted on whether abortion (on demand) should be introduced in the State.
The electorate has voted on the right to travel, the right to information and whether or not to repeal the Supreme Court judgement in order to disqualify the risk of suicide as a grounds for an abortion.
On 25 November 1992, the Government put forward three possible amendments to the Constitution in the first abortion referendum after the X Case.
The people of Ireland voted to allow for the freedom to travel outside the State for an abortion. The amendment covering the right to obtain or make available information on abortion services abroad was also passed.
The third question on the ballot paper, the Twelfth Amendment, proposed to legislate for legal abortions. However, it said that the risk of suicide was not sufficient grounds to allow for such a legal abortion.
It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction.
This proposal, which would have seen the ruling in the X Case rolled back, was rejected by the electorate.
As a result, the status quo remained – that is, terminations are allowed where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother, including the risk of suicide.
A similar amendment was put to the public again in 2002. Once more, it was rejected (this time marginally and the turnout at the polls was much smaller than in previous abortion referendums). If passed, the change to the Constitution would also have introduced new penalties of up to 12 years in prison for anyone who performed an unlawful abortion.
Legal cases taken
The landmark X Case came in 1992 after a 14-year-old girl became pregnant after being raped by a man known well to her family. The victim and her parents decided to travel to the UK to undergo an abortion.
The family informed the Gardaí of their plans and asked whether the foetus could be tested after it was aborted to provide proof of the paternity of the accused in the rape case. After being asked his advice on the matter, Attorney General Harry Whelehan obtained an interim injunction to stop the termination in order to protect the Constitution.
The High Court upheld the injunction but an appeal to the Supreme Court was successful and Miss X was granted leave to travel for a termination. The presiding judge deemed that the risk of life to the girl was not less than the danger to the right of life of the unborn.
Just five years later, a similar case arose when a 13-year-old girl, who became known as Miss C, became pregnant after being raped. She was taken into the care of the Eastern Health Board, and requested an abortion. The EHB was granted an order to allow for an abortion abroad but this was challenged by Miss C’s parents.
The High Court found that she was entitled to a lawful abortion here on the grounds that her life was at risk because she was suicidal and that risk would increase as her pregnancy advanced. Despite being legally granted an abortion in Ireland, the health board brought Miss C to the UK for the termination.
The case of D versus Ireland was heard in the European Court of Human Rights in September 2005 with Miss D claiming her human rights were violated because of the lack of abortion services here. Her baby had been diagnosed with foetal abnormalities so severe it could not live outside the womb.
The case was dismissed after the court ruled that the aggrieved individual had not brought an action before the Irish courts, thus failing to exhaust all domestic avenues open to her.
Oddly, the Irish State argued that if she had brought the case to the domestic courts, she may have been successful. There have been no test cases of this since.
The most recent legal challenge to Ireland’s abortion laws came in the A, B and C versus Ireland case at the European Court of Human Rights in 2010. Taking the case, three women said their rights had been violated because they were forced to travel abroad for terminations. The court found that Ireland had breached C’s constitutional right to a lawful abortion in Ireland.
C had a rare form of cancer and when she discovered she was pregnant she feared for her life as she believed the pregnancy increased the risk of her cancer returning. She argued that there was no effective procedure available in Ireland for assessing that risk – and therefore she nor her doctors could ascertain if she was entitled to a lawful abortion in Ireland.
The government were forced into action to legislate for the X Case following the judgement in the A, B & C versus Ireland case. The European Court of Human Rights had said the reality in Ireland is different to the legal theory.
It said it was concerned about the “effectiveness of the consultation procedure [between a woman and her doctor] as a means of establishing… qualification for a lawful abortion in Ireland”.
The Court noted that while the Constitutional provision (as interpreted by the Supreme Court in the X Case) allows for certain lawful abortions, the fact that it had never been legislated for (at that point) meant that “absolute prohibition” and “associated serious criminal offences” remain in force and contribute to the “lack of certainty” for a woman and her doctors.
Therefore, women who legally qualify for an abortion in Ireland often ended up travelling abroad to have the procedure.
Against this background of substantial uncertainty, the Court considers it evident that the criminal provisions of the 1861 Act would constitute a significant chilling factor for both women and doctors in the medical consultation process, regardless of whether or not prosecutions have in fact been pursued under that Act.
Both the third applicant and any doctor ran a risk of a serious criminal conviction and imprisonment in the event that a decision taken in medical consultation, that the woman was entitled to an abortion in Ireland given the risk to her life, was later found not to accord with Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution. Doctors also risked professional disciplinary proceedings and serious sanctions.
An expert group was set up in January 2012 to examine how best to deal with the court’s ruling. It issued its recommendations in November 2012, in the weeks following the death of Savita Halappanavar. The young woman’s death made headlines around the world after it was reported that she was denied an abortion as she miscarried and contracted an infection. She died of blood poisoning.
Since the 31-year-old dentist’s death, the United Nations has also been vocal on Ireland’s abortion services. Just last month, the human rights panel criticised the State for its highly restrictive laws.
Committee Chairman Nigel Rodley said that Ireland treats its women like vessels “and nothing more”.
The death of Savita Halappanavar and the beginning of the process to legislate for the X Case are often conflated but this may not be wholly accurate.
The government were being pressurised to clarify the Constitutional and legal positions because of the 1992 Supreme Court ruling and the ABC case.
Therefore, it was the learnings of the expert group that would be crucial.
Made up of medical experts, lawyers, and officials from the Department of Health, the group was tasked with setting out “options on how to implement the judgement” in the A, B, and C versus Ireland case.
It made no firm recommendations but gave options to the government, including to bring in new laws plus regulations for the medical community. The Justice Minister of the time, Alan Shatter, was explicit in the government’s view that there was “not an option” to omit a provision for suicide from the law.
This week there have been calls for the Eighth Amendment to be repealed. For this to happen, a Constitutional referendum would have to be held.
The current government is not keen to do this, especially after the battle it had last year when introducing the new laws, with coalition partner Fine Gael losing a number of members.
As is, there are a number of reviews and reports ongoing. Including continued assessments by the United Nations Human Rights Committee and an internal report into what happened in the most recent controversial abortion case.
A referendum seems unlikely unless the protests grow to a much larger level. This week saw hundreds of people take to streets, significant numbers but nothing near policy-influencing crowds.
There are a number of different abortion procedures and the methods used generally depends on how long the woman has been pregnant.
Early medical abortions can be carried out in the first nine weeks of pregnancy. It involves taking two drugs – one which blocks the pregnancy hormone that is necessary for a successful pregnancy and another which breaks down the lining of the uterus. Essentially, they induce an early miscarriage.
A medical abortion works in a similar fashion as the same drugs (mifepristone and prostaglandin) are taken – just in a higher dosage. It is described by clinics as similar to having a late miscarriage as it is used for pregnancies in the nine to 20 week stage.
Suction abortions, or manual vacuum aspirations (MVA), are classified as surgical terminations. During the procedure, a small tube is inserted into the uterus to remove the pregnancy by suction. A local anaesthetic is used and MVAs can be undergone up to 10 weeks into pregnancy.
After 10 weeks and up to 15 weeks, women may undergo a vacuum aspiration. Instead of a manual suction technique, an electric pump is used.
A surgical dilatation and evacuation (D&E) abortion is the option usually used after 15 weeks. It is carried out under general anaesthetic as the pregnancy is removed through the cervix by a special forceps.
Complications that can – but rarely – arise from abortions include infection, excessive bleeding or damage to the cervix or uterus. According to statistics from the UK, up to 14 out of every 1,000 medical abortions fail to end the pregnancy and further treatment is required.
In the most recent case, the pregnancy was terminated by Caesarean section after the foetus became viable, which usually happens at between 24 and 26 weeks.
Debates about abortion are not confined to Ireland. A US politician’s opinion on family planning matters is of major significance to voters – the 2012 Republican presidential nomination race was partly dominated by talks of scrapping funding to Plan Parenthood because it provides abortion services.
In Europe, abortion is legal in some guise in most countries. Malta is the current exception where it is completely banned under all circumstances.
Most European states allow for abortions only under certain conditions, such as when there is a risk to the mother’s health – be it mental or physical. There are also differing gestational limits in countries which offer on-demand abortions. In Belgium, Denmark and France there is a 12 week limit, while others, including Austria and the Netherlands, allow terminations up to 24 weeks.
Many countries loosen their restrictions in the case of rape, incest, teenage pregnancies (Finland offers abortions up to 20 weeks if the pregnant girl is younger than 17), where there is a risk to the physical or mental health of the patient or when there are foetal abnormalities.
Northern Ireland
Laws relating to abortion are not as restrictive in Northern Ireland as they are south of the border but they are not as loose as other parts of the UK.
The 1967 Abortion Act legalising terminations in England, Scotland and Wales was not extended to the six counties because Westminster left it up to Northern Ireland’s own parliament to decide. It never took up the issue and even when Direct Rule returned, the Act was never extended to include the province.
There have been some moves to close the gap in legislation but these have been shelved at various times in the past decades. Abortion is only legal in very exceptional circumstances but these include when there is a substantial risk to the long-term physical or mental health of the woman.
Although women who discover their babies are not compatible with life outside the womb may legally have an abortion in Northern Ireland, many travel to the mainland for terminations.
Women in Northern Ireland are not entitled to an abortion through the National Health Insurance scheme (the NHS).
Great Britain
Although women in England, Scotland and Wales can have an abortion up to 24 weeks of pregnancy about 90% are carried out before 13 weeks.
Terminations are provided for free through the NHS for citizens but private-run clinics charge around £500.
Those aged under 16 do not require parental consent to undergo a termination. The partner also has no legal rights in the decision and does not have to be told about the procedure. In fact, where partners have tried to prevent an abortion by legal action they have failed.
The Netherlands
Anecdotal evidence shows that Irish women have started to travel to the Netherlands for abortion services, as well as the UK. Abortion has been legal there since the 1970s and terminations are allowed up to 24 weeks. However, in practice most clinics set a limit of 22 weeks.
Legislation sets certain requirements about how a woman arrives at her decision to terminate. There are also laws which lay out conditions for the quality of care given by hospitals and clinics where the procedures are performed.
Despite access to abortion services being relatively free and easy, the Netherlands actually has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world, according to its Centre for Contraception, Sexuality and Abortion.
A version of this article was first published on 28 April 2012; it has been updated and republished on 23 August 2014.
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The hypocrisy of the so called “Pro Life” campaign is astounding. They aren’t pro life really they are pro birth. They want all foetus’s brought to term regardless of the mothers situation but when it’s born they really couldn’t give a damn about it. If they were pro life you’d think they’d be protesting about the growing levels of child poverty and the shocking provision of state help for children.
Why is it acceptable to have an abortion in Great Britain but not the island of Ireland. If precious life cared so much why aren’t they picketing the departure gates at Dublin Airport? The cowardice of our politicians, the geographical proximity of Great Britain and the fervour of the Catholic Church has created a situation in Ireland which is truly appalling and a national embarrassment.
Conor.. Have you ever heard of Cura. They help care for familes before, during and after crisis pregnancies so your argument that pro lifers dont give a damn about the baby once its born is a untrue.
Very well put young man.
How do they help. Is it only verbal help or practical help like costs associated with having a child such as nappies,baby milk etc. School costs and clothing. Help with college fees. In the case of the child being born to a single parent how do they help. Do they provide a babysitting service so the parent can go back to work.
Connor you got a fair deal. The laws of this country meant you were born without question to your life. Yet you advocate and a lot of people advocate the killing of unborn Irish citizens? It’s pure hypocritical for people that have had these rights to say well it was okay for me. But I don’t want to extend these rights to future generations….why because Britain and Europe are in close proximity. Abortion is a disgusting thing. If it has to be done it has to be done in certain circumstances. But it is nothing for any civilized society to aspire to. Why? Because it kills the most vulnerable and the weakest without asking because the victims cannot ask. They rely on the mother and father and others to be responsible for their existence.
PS wake up to the media every week and a half a new story comes along and p.c people like you jump from one story to the next with your shock and circumstantial anger. Condemning everything that is not being done yet you do nothing yourself. Government…..argh…..Israel…..Argh…….Russia…..Argh……Britain….. Argh… etc It’s pathetic.
Emotional and practical support for all the family which is very important when facing a crisis.
Not sure about college fees (for a baby???)..
Your a very angry sounding person Pol. Maybe see someone about that.
Sid the organization provides milk and nappies but doesn’t provide baby sitting services so let’s all run out and have an abortion…
Everyone wants something for nothing in this country. If you have a kid. It costs money. Deal with it.
Dublinguy I am not actually. I am in great form. About to workout and then head off for the day. Geebs you say a few things and you get accused of anger management….
Can cura provide the same support as a parent or just advice. Will they for example come at three in the morning when baby needs a nappy change. Babies and by extension young children and teenagers going to school and college need help. I’m asking what practical help they provide cos on their website I see nothing about specific practical help. Anyone can give advice on the end of a phone but any parent will tell you that listening to someone telling u how u should do this and that is not really help. Do they offer to go shopping for you or help to put out the bins. That’s practical help.
If you have a kid deal with it !!!! Is this the kind of advice that’s given. Would u happen to be part of the pro-life group? This is people’s concerns, that the “support” that’s offered is not really help at all but a vehicle to push ideology. Parenting involves a lot more than having a phone call service. I don’t know if you have any kids yourself but if your wife complained she was tired from looking after the kids and needed money for food and the answer given was “you had a kid deal with it” I suspect you’d be getting a divorce.
Sid , there is a ton of help out there for single mothers and there is schemes in place so that they can go back to work too .
Sid.. They offer every kind of emotional, financial and practical support..
A crisis pregnancy is an awful experience. No one only the woman involved quite understands how scary it is. Its life changing. The most important kind of help you can give a woman is confidence in herself and her ability to raise a child. And of course practical help is vital too.
What about your kids pol. Are they heading out with you for the day. If you have none maybe you could help a mother who followed pro-life advice and give her a day off. That’s practical help.
Sid, why do you think a person with kids might need help to do the shopping and put out the bins ? . like seriously , they are not helpless ya know .. Seriously !
Thanks for that Sinead. Does the financial help have to be declared to the revenue, is it in the form of a non refundable tax credit. If you don’t know could you find out, thanks. What practical help is given. I think i asked this before cos I can’t see any examples on curas website. I have a doctor’s appointment next wens at two thirty. Can they help with stuff like that.
Sid, you have the internet there , try google ? Can you not check it out for yourself instead of asking people on here to do it for you ??
Jeepers Joan is that what you said to your parents when they asked you to help tidy up the dishes or if they asked you to run to the shops. Seems to me that not one instance of the practical help has been mentioned here apart from that they help with nappies and milk. How does the nappies and milk get delivered. All I’m asking is the sort of everyday questions that parents ask all over the world.what I’m getting is anger and no direct answers other than do it yourself. I don’t find that very supportive. Is it ok for me to say that or will I be attacked for that too.
Ok. Joan thanks for that. Is that the kind of advice that’s given by cura. To do it yourself? are you involved with them.I’m not being smart here. Be honest with me. Have you an affiliation with them? I wouldn’t feel that advice like “do it yourself”would be very supportive. the comment made by someone here that only a woman can really understand what it’s like after a crisis birth is distressing to me. I could have had a wife that died in childbirth due to complications due to present legislation. The website has a section on men. How do you cope with feelings liike that. Thanks for your help.
But sid the things you are asking about are normal everyday things that people get on with ? Why would you need help to put out your bins and do your shopping for you just cause you have kids ? If a mother has a disability , then that is a different story of course . and if a mother is getting free nappies etc then as a mother you go and get them . I could be wrong but it seems to me, from your questions that you want everything handed to you .
Sid I posted that comment before your other comment came through , there is a lot of charities that can help with pretty much anything these days . St Vincent de Paul is great if you need a food parcel or any kind of help ..
I don’t want to in my ignorance and without offending anyone in a single parent situation due to whatever reasons. but I’ll say it anyway. Society in Ireland holds a family to be a man and wife. This is Catholic teaching. And it’s got to be harder to raise kids on your own rather than with two people. I’m sorry but the answers I’ve gotten today here haven’t in any way convinced me that cura could help a person with a crisis birth. I asked people who told me thay provide financial emotional and practical advice. When I’ve simply asked for specifics I’ve had no real answers other than that nappies and milk are provided. Please if your going to suggest that people avail of a service can you please familiarise yourself of the actual support given so that if asked you can be of actual help. Thanks.
Sid , what is it that you actually need to know ?
Thanks Joan. I’d rather not rely on charity and by the comments here about people wanting freebies etc. I’m sure you’d understand why. To be honest all the answers I’ve gotten here to straight forward questions have not gotten one response except do it yourself.except the nappies and milk. Look through them if you don’t believe me. Other than cura provide help but when asked what help us given no one knows. How do you know thay provide help? Have you been a client of theirs? Thanks in advance.
Thanks Joan. I asked a question about the financial implications of monetary help from the perspective of the revenue. Also the nappies and milk that’s offered. How do I get them ? Is it in the form of a voucher or is there a depot to collect them from. I have no car. The help that’s offered too further education. Is there childminding help provided. Thanks in advance.
Hi Sid. I availed of their services when I was a pregnant 18 year old, on the advice of my GP. I was just finished school and unemployed, they didn’t tell me about any financial or practical assistance available to me from them. All I left with was two leaflets, one on giving your baby away for adoption and another for my partner explaining that unmarried fathers in Ireland have no rights. Sorry I couldn’t shed any light on the practical assistance they offer. Maybe someone else on here will have had more help from them than I had..
Hi Sid. I availed of their services when I was a pregnant 18 year old, on the advice of my GP. I was just finished school and unemployed, they didn’t tell me about any financial or practical assistance available to me from them. All I left with was two leaflets, one on giving your baby away for adoption and another for my partner explaining that unmarried fathers in Ireland have no rights. Sorry I couldn’t shed any light on the practical assistance they offer. Maybe someone else on here will have had more help from them than I had..
I have never used their services . If it is help with cash you need , like in an emergency , you need to go to your community welfare officer and they will help you depending on what it is for and it has nothing to do with the revenue , St Vincent de Paul can help with food and may also help you in other ways too and sometimes they can come to your home .as for going back to work? The social welfare is where you need to go , there is after school childcare schemes and other schemes in place so you can go back to work , but you need to go to these places yourself . there is help out there but it’s up to you to go and find them ! They won’t come knocking on your door .
Joan. In fairness to yourself you never stated you were an advocate of cura. You did however say that there’s a ton of help out their for people. The cwo is a discression payment and not an ongoing thing. The dole is not two hundred Euro a week. If these services are so readily available and good at providing a backstop to abortion legislation as it stands now why then do statistics show that single parent family’s and especially woman are at a greater risk of poverty. Clearly the legislation falls way short of providing an answer to society’s needs and the woman that said she actually went to cura and was given two leaflets and no nappies etc would have to prove my point that it’s all just lip Service by religious fanatics.the woman who said she went at 18 Is the person we need to help.really all you’ve suggested is that I sign on the dole and try to work my way around the HSE and the myriad of dysfunctional service’s it purports to provide.
Sid, I never said anything about two hundred euro for the dole . you asked what help was out there for a single mother and about going back to work . I responded to those questions on that basis only . I never once told you to go out and work the welfare system . . you came across as if you genuinely were looking for help , which obviously is not the case !
I also never refered to these services as a good backdrop with abortions .!
Joan. You said earlier that st vdp are great. But am I right in saying you have never used them. How do you know their great.? Is that from second hand information or do you volunteer for them. So what do they give you, is it cash or food, do they pay off electric bills directly.thanks.
Isn’t the dole around two hundred Euro a week. I don’t know cos I don’t sign on. I’m a married man of two small kids. I never once said I was a single mother. Do you have to be to ask wyest
Do you have to be a single mum to ask what services are available or can you be a member of another segment of society to ask. How do you know I’m not asking on someone else’s behalf. At The end of the discussion I’m none the wiser as to the supports available,just mixed messages with an undercurrent of anger.
Sid, You do not have to be a single mother . St Vincent de Paul is there to help anyone who is going through financial hardship , they will also call out to your home too . if it is food that is needed then a person can go to one of their shelters and receive a food parcel .
Thanks for that. To be honest I’m still not really at ease with the level of support available to mothers with the current legislation as it is. If the state is able to force you to have a baby against your will but unable to provide any real and meaningful support aside from a few leaflets and the charity of others and discretionary payments or the dole, I don’t think that’s good enough. We have a long way to go as a society, you must surely agree that the situation is not perfect. Why not let woman deside for themselves. If they want one so be it. If not we’ll then so be it.
I know you didn’t say the phrase “work the welfare system” but saying the cwo is there is in away pointing me to the welfare system. I know you didn’t say anything about the dole. I did,. You said to me and I quote ” the social welfare is where you need to go” the social welfare isn’t enough to live on in this country without serious problems arising if you want to mentain any sort of a standard of independent living. By denying woman the right to choose the own futures you are consigning them and there kids to a possible lifetime of welfare dependency. This country does not have a favourable history of looking after single parents and orphans. Would you disagree with that.
Sid it’s a lovely day out there. Yet you sat in all day and questioned the financial viability of having kids or have an abortion. As Joan said there are plenty of supports there that are used to support kids in need. Now go out get some fresh air and relax.
I am not condemning anybody to a life on the welfare system , I just pointed out that there is help if needed , that’s all . I do not believe in abortion except for certain circumstances only but that is my own personal feelings on it .
Pol , nice one ..well said !
Hi pol I was out and about and at home doing housework. Went out with my two kids to smyths and bought some toys as well. I’m sorry pol but anecdotal evidence doesn’t butter bread in the real world. If you can’t give real life examples of help available except for vague comments about help being there. I think I’ve been more than polite in asking questions regarding people’s knowledge about the details of this help. But if you look through the thread you will notice that apart from a comment about nappies and milk. Not much else has been divulged. Then a woman who said that she actually went to cura and was given two leaflets and nothing else disputed your comment about nappies and milk. I think the truth is that you don’t actually know what supports exist but just came up with that comment either to try to placate me or were you taking the piss.either way I couldn’t possibly take you seriously. You obviously don’t know what your talking about.sorry for wasting your time.
I’m sorry Joan. Maybe I’m a little confused here. As far as I can see and I’ve lived here for give or take forty five years apart from a stint abroad. A life where the community welfare officer and svdp and single parent allowances are your source of income doesn’t lead to a life of ease. Maybe I’m wrong but any woman I know or have known have wanted to be independent and get away from the dole. The system here doesn’t allow women or single fathers equal rights or the ability to live the same level of comfort as two parent family’s simply by the fact that the chores etc are not shared. I asked what supports are available. Pol said nappies and milk and to get over it as he headed out the door. This was in turn disputed by a woman who said she went to cura and was given two leaflets. You said go to the social welfare and the cwo or svdp and that theirs lots of supports available.what are these supports. You have never availed of svdp or cura yourself. So what are you basing your advice on. Is it from a TV ad or something a friend said.
I’m sorry Joan but the level of help that’s required of people in Ireland having a crisis pregnancy and the follow up supports are not in any way adequate for a first world country. Really this is part of the problem. The girl that had the baby said herself that she wasn’t happy with the service provided. That’s an actual client of the services telling us what she thinks. Are we to continue to stick our heads in the sand and insist that things are grand when the actual people involved are telling us that it’s not. Don’t you think that’s a little bit insensitive to her. After all she’s been through the experience so shouldn’t we take on board what she says.if we are going to continue to have abortions illegal shouldn’t we make sure that for the sake of the people that are effected by our laws that a remedy exists to right it. In law thats part of the law of tort which is a law which has been in existence for a good while now. As I stands now the help available isn’t adequate.
Sid, I am not basing it on a TV ad , did you not hear the old saying knowledge is power ? Everyone should know what their rights and entitlements are , should they ever need them . if you just click onto the St Vincent de Paul website for instance the information is right there in front of you . although there is some serious issues with the situation regarding abortion that needs to be addressed , a woman can go abroad to get that abortion if they want to and while it’s not ideal it was a way out for them . if they go on to have the baby then there is help there too . you make it out as if the woman is going to be left barefoot and homeless if she has to keep the baby .
Barefoot and homeless. Was there not a case last month where a pregnant homeless woman was found on o Connell bridge. Sure every day of the week young families are consigned to living in b and b’s because they can’t pay their rent due to rent caps etc. You say knowledge is power. Well I’ve asked you specific questions regarding help that’s available but you have not been able to give me one number or name of a home help or details etc. I asked about the financial help that appartantly exists with cura and if I had to declare it. You don’t know, do you. That’s not very knowledgeable about either practical or financial help. Can you please just be honest and admit you haven’t a clue really about what help exists. Thanks
Hi Sid. Your getting a bit annoying. Joan is not the SVP or the Social Welfare. If you want to know about these things why don’t you go down to your local Citizens Information office. They are friendly people and they will direct you to the services that you are entitled to. There is One Parent Family Allowances, Childrens Allowance, Rent Supplement, Jobseekers payments, Family income supplement, hardship grants, fuel allowance. There even used to be a payment for dog food for your dog, but this was axed. Cura like the Citizens Information is an information body. It will not intervene with financial or legal matters. It can only provide counselling and verbal support. Joan has said this a number of times and even suggested the SVP as another reasonable avenue to get support. I don’t know what is so difficult to understand about that or whether you are thick or something?
Did you not state that they provide nappies and milk. Are you now saying that’s not true. Everyone in the country knows about the services you stated. What you haven’t talked about is specific help that’s available to woman who have had a crisis pregnancy.a woman who went to cura said she was given two leaflets. No practical help was given, would you dispute her version of events. Sorry if I’m boring you but unfortunately sometimes you have to go on and on to actually get to the truth. To tell someone help exists but not be able to actually say what the help is but be insistent it is there even when faced with first hand evidence that it’s not is futile. The help isn’t there. That’s the truth of the matter.
Sid, I gave given you the information you asked about , I have answered your questions already . if the answers have not registered with you than that is not my fault . please do not tell me that I don’t have a clue about what help is out there when I have already told you what is out there and even Pol has told you . or is it that you that you are the type of person that likes people to agree with you ?
Get a room.
I’ve been to the citizens advice before with a few issues and all they did was look on the internet. They are volunteers themselves and are well meaning but not an ideal service. People who have had a crisis pregnancy would inevitably have a unique set of problems and need help outside of the general services you quoted. Cura give out leaflets.I’m sorry if I’ve angered you and that you have had to resort to name calling. Can I suggest that you dont offer your own services to people having crisis pregnancy in the future cos you seem to have a low threshold when it comes patiently listening to others needs. You have a tendency to get angry when you dont get the response you feel you deserve. You have to bear in mind that it’s not about you all the time.other people have pointed this out to you too. Sorry to wreak your buzz.
I was being sarcastic. Sid feel the atmosphere of the room before you make stupid comments. She was given two leaflets. If it was me I would be saying is that the best they can do and ask them for the rest of their services. The help is there I outlined it to you. If you want to think otherwise that is your ignorant opinion. This government and the last government have created a lot of services for people but they cannot shove them down women’s throats. It is up to people to look for and follow up the things they want and need. But then again a flipping coach potato like you wants the whole world to be carted into your living room. When it isn’t you are the first one to give out that “Ireland is crap, there is nothing here for me. This country is pants.” I just cannot believe that you have spent the whole day moaning.
Did I come across like that. All I wanted to know was what specific help is available to woman going through a crisis pregnancy. You directed me to the social welfare, I don’t think they are trained in the unique set of circumstances that effect a woman that’s gone through a forced pregnancy.cura give out leaflets on adoption and that men have no rights to the child. Am I not allowed to dispute you or do I just have to except what you say. If a service is no good what’s wrong with saying it. We have a tendency in Ireland to just except the status Que and questioning is frowned upon.
Yes they are volunteers but the thing is there is literature available in the form of pamphlets there too. They can direct you to the service you need. There are even solicitors that give free impartial non binding legal advice if someone needs it on certain evenings. The fact is the services are there. It is up to women is this situation to engage and go after them. Sid also your asking questions yet you are flippant about the answers given. Your doing my head in to be honest. I find it hard to listen patiently to you because you don’t accept simple facts. Women are not this fragile thing that have to be wrapped up in cotton wool. You seem to think otherwise but they are equal in society and currently and hopefully for a long time their children will be seen as equal too. Hence my original point. I have friends that have had children. Some of them need help more than others. I am always there to help any time they need help. When they ask. But I am not going to run around there unannounced like some loon. It just doesn’t make sense. Not everyone that has children needs help.
Sid, no you asked me what help was out there for a parent with a child , that’s why I said the sw so please get your facts right . your questions have been answered . for you they just don’t seem to be the answers you want to hear. there is professional people out there , all the resources you need to help you when you go through a crisis pregnancy . they will even give you the information you need should a woman decide on an abortion and will be there for you after you have it . but all this doesn’t get handed to you on a plate ! Why is that so difficult to understand ? They only thing these services cannot do is make the decision for you .
Sid right. Look up Cura and their services. The woman that wrote a previous comment said she went there and got two leaflets. That was not the best she could get from them. Look up the website Cura offer counselling and targeted advice specifically for situations like crisis pregnancy and abortions. You even said it yourself that us Irish accept the status quo and with all respect she should have demanded better of the organization. Social Welfare will look after the money side which you alluded earlier to being a big part of the problem earlier in your comments. You can dispute all you want to me about what you want but the truth is your brandishing a stick in fury and asking questions at the same time. Your just not making any sense when sense is given. Ireland is not some backward place to have children. It’s not China and it’s definitely not West Africa. If you feel anxious about these things contact your local politician. Wreck their heads about these issues. Why? Because you pay taxes and they are paid to do it. I am not!
Isn’t the saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. So you think crises pregnancy deserves sarcasm. I don’t feel I’ve spent the day complaining, I’ve been asking about services that are available, so if you were given two leaflets and then proceeded to ask what other help was available to be told no financial or legal help is there. Really what does that leave. You say the govt have set up services. Why haven’t you told us what they are then, is it a secret? Bare in mind that not everyone thinks like you, it may be a young girl that’s been raped by her father and pregnant she may not have the life skills available that you possess.she may be quiet and withdrawn. She may be hysterical.who knows.it’s not like she just off to the shops to buy milk. This is going to be hopefully a once off really distressing episode. She would I think need actual help and not just leaflets on adoption and fathers rights. That’s been my question all along. What help is available for people with crisis pregnancy.
Hi pol. I appreciate your efforts in helping. Thanks. It just seems to me that the govt have rammed the law regarding abortion down our throats and papers all over the world have been commenting on the situation and not for the first time. Isn’t there something barbaric in insisting that an under age rape victim be forced to have her attackers child against her wishes.I know you haven’t got kids yourself but can you imagine how you’d feel knowing your daughter was to be forced to have a rapists child. If you asked for help and were given leaflets would you be satisfied. This is the situation as at present.it’s wrong.
Sid, I’ve told you what help is out there and so has Pol told you and you don’t seem to want to believe us so here’s the thing , if you are that interested in it then why don’t you click and type away there on your computer and see what information you come up with and then come back and let us know instead of waiting for it to be handed to you . I would be very interested to hear what you come back with .
Sid I told you what services there were and you stupid little man won’t accept the answer for whatever twisted reason. You are talking about hypothetical scenarios. Yet you say the services that are actually there are not real. What Joan and I have been trying to say is that these services cannot jump into the lives of these women. They are there. They need to go reach out to them. If one of my friends had an issue like the one you describe I’d say this service is there reach out to them. I would also make sure a father that abused their own daughter never walked again. But what would you do Sid? Would you write an email asking why he did it? Ask someone via the internet to help the girl? If your that bothered get up off your fat backside and join a charity and make a difference. Otherwise continue being all talk and no action.
I have no kids Sid. What difference does that make. I personally wish to do things the old fashioned way. You know the meet someone I like, spend a bit of time with them for a while get married and have kids. But I want to do the career thing first. There is nothing wrong with that and I don’t look down on anybody that has made a mistake because there is no right or wrong in life anyway. Do you have a problem with that Sid?
Btw Sid I don’t want to think such things about any of my future children. It’s sick to ask someone that. In fairness as much as I hate the government. I don’t think they want to ram this down our throats. Pro Choice campaigners and Pro Life alike want changes the government just want to get on with their holidays. I don’t understand the international papers. We had a minister at a UN meeting getting stick for things that sadly happened to women decades ago to justify the introduction of abortion on demand. But the minister sat there and unfairly took these unjustified statements. Ireland’s record is not exactly pretty but it is one of the only places in the world that the constitution states that both the woman and the baby is equal. And I don’t see the issue with this.
Sorry Joan but didn’t the girl at the centre of the current storm say that she didn’t have the cash to get to England and that none was made available for her. How is a under eighteen girl meant to get a thousand Euro together while she’s pregnant. To tell her to go to England on her own, I presume cura wouldn’t bring her. Is really no help at all. I’m sure she’d get the same level of advice from her schoolfriends. The girl herself said in the media what her experience was with the Irish system of help and she sounded pretty upset at it. It’s not satisfactory at present. Sorry but I have to go now. I haven’t been converted to a pro lifer tonight. But thanks for the effort. Maybe next time.
You are on about sarcasm too. When you do it it is okay you mutt. But when I do it I get a nasty little comment.
I get it we ask you a few questions and you haven’t got an answer? Your some man aren’t you? I hope when your children need help in their lives you are not as bloody useless as you came across today. Some boy alright.
Sid, did you not read the article that said that the government has paid for asylum seekers to go abroad for abortions ? You need to go now ? Grand so , try fit in some time to do that research for yourself as I’ve mentioned before knowledge is power and by the way , I really hope you are never faced with a real crisis !
Your a strange guy pol. If you assaulted someone that did that if would only satisfy your own needs. You could also end up with a criminal record. Your daughter would probably be better off with your support. For the record I’ve done plenty of volunteer work and lead a pretty active life. If you worked for cura and a man walked in and said that his daughter had been raped would you suggest he assaulted him. I’ve not heard that one before. Interesting.like I said before you’d probably be best not to get involved in that line of work. Anyway i still don’t agree with you dispute the insults. But good luck with your approach. Have you considered meditation for your anger issues. I’ve to go now, thanks for the debate I’ve really enjoyed it. No hard feelings. Night.
Pol , that is a real case of when the going gets tough …. Ya run a mile !!
I really wanted Journal.ie to post that comment I just made. I will give you the jist Sid. Go get help for your confrontational issues. It’s clear you have passive aggressive tendencies and no answers to simple questions. I wish you all the best and please have a hot chocolate to settle your nerves before bed. It’s okay because when the going gets tough Captain Sid with write a strongly worded email to the wrongdoers. They are quaking in their boots……Said no one ever!
Sorry to interfere with your discussion but… Who is responsible for conceiving a new life? The kids do not come from nowhere… If someone had the brain to irresponsibly conceive a baby they should have enough brain and determination to cope with the new situation. Are we not too convenient? Everything should be given on a plate to us? When I feel responsibility for my decision I need to face all the consequence which results from this. Our parents had to deal with such situations and the family were always at hand to help…because they knew that is their problem as well. Do not expect from the state too much if have not given to it anything at all. I know it sounds harsh but on the other hand people should feel responsible for their decisions… In my country (Poland) my cousin, a single mother had to work having had to find a nursery for her son… She got help from the social services over 6 months and that was all. Obviously she has still been getting some help but she needed to prove she wanted to work… Life is not easy and we should be taught responsibility for what we do….
To add to my previous comment… I believe that pregnancies coming from incest, rape should be allowed as well as the ones when the mother’s life is at risk. But to have sex irresponsibly, get pregnant and remove the baby for free (or even for money) is too easy… Young people should be taught responsibility and to know if they do something wrong they will need to face the results…
Sorry but I found a lack of clarity in expressing my views… I meant ” I believe that pregnancies coming from incest, rape should be allowed to be aborted as well as the ones when the mother’s life is at risk.
I do not base my opinions on any religious criteria. I just wanted to stress that people should act responsibly and take that responsibility on when something happens.
There are so many ways to avoid unwanted pregnancies (contraception, education etc.) Today’s world is different and it is easier to control such issues. (for responsible people)
Joan, the govt paid for asylum seekers to go to the UK for a termination, once they were deemed to be suicidal. It was in accordance with the provisions of the constitution but, as no govt had put any legislative framework in place, abortions were not carried out here even in those circumstances. With this new legislation, terminations can be carried out for suicidal women in Ireland so therefore the state will no longer bring women in their care to the UK.
Grace , thanks for that but I wasn’t disputing that fact ?
Andrezej , well said .
really? why aren’t you out doing all that if you feel so strongly about those matters?
sounds like you are quite hypocritical yourself.
the only national embarrassment here is ..
1) your view that it’s OK to abort unborn babies to death here or elsewhere,
and 2) that Irish people, like colonial slave peasants, and Irish society, should slavishly ape the evil UK abortion on demand regime (currently 200,000 abortions per year).
When did you ever picket anywhere to stop unborn babies being aborted?
We need an yes/no referendum with arguments being lead by doctors not crackpot church loonies.
Doc.s oath “First do NO harm” I’d say killing the pre-born qualifies as ‘harm”
yeah, and guess what, any good doctor, or even a cursory survey of Ultrasound scans, will show you that unborn human babies, as we all once were, get done to death in abortions.
There is only one thing you really need to know about abortion in Ireland:
If you are a woman with money or with means then abortion is fully available to you and you have full choice over whether or not to proceed with a pregnancy. It may not be easy but choice and freedom absolutely exist.
If you are poor or powerless then the laws and restrictions outlined above apply, and choices will be made for you by people who may or may not have your best interests at heart.
So really, this is simply a matter of control over the poor and powerless. But then that’s always been the Irish way.
A very good point Katie, however, the same could be said for a number of other things in Ireland. Education, health and the rising wealth gap.
@Katie Does
it has ALWAYS been easier for the rich to end up in hell dear!
Formulating state policy and constitutional law based on pandering to those that believe in sky fairies must cease.
I want to know why the pro life advocates aren’t out protesting against Jehovah’s witnesses who deny medical treatments to children? Isn’t the concept the same? A defenceless child having the will of an adult imposed on them which in many cases threatens the life of said child.
Because everybody cacks themselves when they see them approaching their doorsteps. So nobody is going to engage or force a debate with them.
I want to know why pro-choicers aren’t aren’t protesting for legalised prostitution, the right to die, the de-criminalisation of all drugs and the right of men to legally abrogate responsibility for a child they helped to conceive
Whaaaaaat???!!!
Read it again, Michelle
Small Retort, Jehovah’s witnesses can’t deny children life-saving medical treatment on religious grounds. It was established long ago and most recently affirmed in the Baby AB case centring on blood transfusion. Why protest against a law you agree with?
Because the so called pro life brigade do not care about the child once its born. They only care about the fetus!!
Hi support the Right to Die (Euthenisia) if you do not then you are ok with torture. i also support legalising prostitution and the de-criminalisation of all drugs. I would love to have the opportunity to vote on these issues. if you do not support these issues then you do not care about other human beings. i can understand being anti-choice honestly i can, when your spiritual and personal beliefs blind you to the suffering of so many woman and children and make you so stubborn in your stance.
why aren’t you out protesting against unborn babies being aborted needlessly to death if you are so concerned about children?
yeah, rubbish, Mary. prolife people care about children, born and unborn. They would not fight the aborting of unborn human babies to death otherwise.
Your terminology, on the other hand, depersonalises such babies as “the fetus” . Depersonalised so that they can more easily be killed by abortion.
Boot pro abortion politicians out of office, boycott sponsors/advertisers of the abortion pushing media outlets/programmes now.
“Abortions for some, miniature Irish flags for others”
Kronos 1996
I am against abortion, however, only when there is a threat to mothers life, rape and incest should it be used. And it should be carefully regulated. Outside of that no.
I would fully support your choice to only have an abortion in those circumstances.
You’re not really against abortion then are you? So in that case you and your partner can choose to not have an abortion. Let the rest of us make our own decisions.
@Mal, and your point is exactly ???.
Abortion should be legal.
@Mal, that is a rather vague reply. Please expand as I have made my point perfectly clear. Abortion under certain circumstances and regulated.
Personally I don’t particularly agree with the concept of abortion, but like yourself, I don’t entirely disagree with it either, it’s not a religious thing for you.
I’m sure there are other people who have different criteria under which they feel abortion is acceptable or not.
My point is since you agree with abortion in certain circumstances, then by default you agree with abortion. If it’s acceptable for those instances why is it not acceptable for other reasons?
I mean, the incest one stands out as having a separate legitimate reason, but your other reasons don’t.
There are many, many different reasons where people feel justified in aborting a pregnancy. I’m saying that since you have circumstances where you feel it may be acceptable, then you shouldn’t feel the need to restrict others options.
The service is needed, education is the best way to ensure people act responsibly. I think the vast majority of people are reasonable, sensible people.
I’m very much pro-choice, I believe that my belief of what is acceptable for abortion shouldn’t restrict your ability to avail of those services for different reasons, even if I don’t agree with them.
My argument is that since in principle you agree with abortion in certain circumstances you should be pro-choice.
I don’t think anybody is pro-abortion, but how could I tell another woman what to do.
Here’s an idea: don’t send your child to a religious school – so many of them in recent inspections had not implemented the Department of Education’s prescribed Relationships and Sexuality curriculum, even though they have had years to do so… why are we contracting with these schools and funding them to deliver our state education system if they can simply decide not to do some of it because it conflicts with their ethos?
Perhaps better relationships and sexuality education will lead to students being able to explore relationships and how they wish to act in them, how to withstand societal pressure to have sex if they do not want to, the importance of using contraception if they do choose to have a sexual relationship – after all, better to avoid unwanted pregnancies and the countries with the most open and frank sex education have the lowest unwanted pregnancies.
We need teachers who are totally comfortable with talking to young adults about sexuality to the extent that girls will feel OK to carry condoms if they have chosen to be sexually active – I really cannot see that in some Catholic schools and it annoys me – our young adults deserve better than the shame of the past.
Exactly.
As the article points out – the Netherlands have a really low abortion rate and they also have the most open attitude toward sex.
They have legalised prostitution (and cannabis and mushrooms) – and yet they have far less drug issues in society, far less teen pregnancies, far less abortion.
What is it they are doing that the rest of us are missing?
” i don;t think anybody is really pro-abortion…..”
really?. What planet are you on? And where have you been for years? Don’y you follow our pro abortion media?
i’d say you are pro-abortion, for a start. You think it OK if unborn babies are aborted.
“how could i tell another woman what to do?” , the plaintive cry goes.
Right, if another woman, say, “choose” to throw herself off the Cliffs of Moher, how could you possibly interfere? It’s her choice after all. You’d stand idly by, right.
You should be defending the unborn, not condoning their death by abortion.
Here’s an idea, send your child to a school where your child will see living, growing unborn human beings in their mothers womb (some will even grow up to be women – unless, of course, you and your ilk, encourage their mother to abort them). Real biological facts on-screen.
Sorry you are annoyed, — it must be a real bummer, having to deal with the basic facts of human Biology, as taught in many good schools, Catholic and otherwise.
Yet another article that wi attract hundreds of comments but which will not change the situation one whit.
No party is going to run with this. Not even the party that has members whose stated aim is abortion on demand. Forget it. It’s not happening. Move on. Stop wasting your time.
Nice try, Alan but it ain’t happening.
It ain’t happening is exactly my point.
I’d lay good money (and I’m 44) that I could live to 80 and nothing is going to change.
Being anti abortion is not a deal breaker for most voters who are in favour but it absolutely is for people who are anti abortion when it comes to voting for pro abortion candidates.
March away. Enjoy the day and enjoy the weather. But both sides are really wasting their time. What’s there is there and even though both sides are unhappy with it it’s just not going to change any time soon. That’s politics for you.
Nope Alan, YOUR attempt to hide the issue ain’t happening. As with most societal changes, this one will come about as part of increasing secularisation in Ireland, as did decriminalisation of homosexuality, marriage equality will be next and so on. Accept it.
You are right about the voting thing, although this is becoming a hot issue for both sides. One thing for sure, the demographics are changing and the current voters won’t live forever.
I get the point Alan is making though Clodagh. If people were asked what their top 10 priorities were when casting their vote, very few would list abortion. The economy, jobs, schools, health, crime, local facilities etc are all more important. We seem to be missing that massive civil society element present in other countries in the 60s, 70s and 80s when those countries were having their national abortion debates.
In most cases, protests demanding gay marriage are much better attended than those demanding less restrictive abortion laws. I’ve no idea why that is, but it makes me wonder.
… demographics?
…as young people move on thru life, marry, have children and families of their own, see their unborn babies in their womb on Ultrasound screens, feel babys kicks in their tum, hold their joyous new baby, watch them grow…….they will wisely come to know the truth about the abortions you advocate.
…they will then thank God, as older, wiser adults, that they did not listen to the pro-abortion liars In Student Unions, media and politics, who told them it was OK to abort their babies, that its just “a clump of cells”.
meanwhile, the pro abortion Student Union advocates will have moved on to feather their career in media and politics, where they will seek to drive forward their abortion agenda.
Vote pro abortion pushers out always.
First of all I am not pro life or pro choice if that is possible and there are crazy people on both sides on here
I agree with the current legislation and I would agree with if an abnormality exists if the baby is not going to survive or very severe abnormalities I thing they should have a choice but not on the ground that it is not the perfect baby
I disagree with allowing full abortion as I think it make the value of life mean nothing
In the uk and Canada they have a massive issue with abortions based on the gender of the baby and to me that is just sick to abort a baby because it was a boy or girl and anybody that agree with that is just sick
Yes at all time the mothers life should be first and then the babies
As balanced and explanatory an article on their subject in the Journal as I have seen so far.
Factual and clear.
The only point I would add is that prior to the1983 referendum abortion was illegal, whereas today, should the constitutional protection be removed, the procedure would become immediately lawful on the back of the various European Treaties that have been adopted in the interim.
On your last point, the pro-life people always claim that. Yet I read much more of the Lisbon Treaty than Mary Coughlan did and I never saw any mention of abortion in there.
You wouldn’t Ryan, the provisions will be contained in a general services directive. The EU doesn’t consider abortion providers as any different to any other service provider, if there is profit in it they will regulate it.
which is exactly why pro-aborts want Art. 8 repealed.
It’s nice to see the Journal finally paying some attention to abortion. That was a scary couple of hours
Excellent article Sinead. Thank you for setting out the facts.
QUOTE: Although women who discover their babies are not compatible with life outside the womb may legally have an abortion in Northern Ireland, many travel to the mainland for terminations.
This is, unfortunately, incorrect. The new draft guidelines that were issued state it’s not a reason. Abortion access is also severely restricted as the NHS hospitals are now forced to publish detailed records, so many doctors don’t dare to perform one as they may end up in court to prove there was indeed a risk to the (mental) health of the woman. A threat of 10 years in prison for everybody involved in abortion has also been added.
Access is in practise near impossible, unless you are willing to go to The High Court, but who is? In rare cases where the State did, due to wards of the state legally incapable to make decisions, legal abortions were granted.
What is the time limit for abortion in this country since the act of 2013 .Can’t find the answer and am teaching 6 th years at present about it
have your say