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Religious education in schools: Two sets of rights in conflict

‘You can discriminate, including favouring one group in particular circumstances, if it is to enable the practice of that religion.”

AS 96% OF Irish primary schools are religious-run, enrolment policies are coming under more and more scrutiny each September. In this three-day special series, TheJournal.ie explores the role religion plays in our classrooms and what’s being done in the sector.

Across the globe, parents begin to worry about the schooling of their children from the moment they are born (and sometimes even before that).

For some mothers and fathers in Ireland, decisions around their children’s education are further complicated by the links between school and religion, the country’s equality and discrimination laws and the Constitution.

As it stands Ireland’s constitutional provisions around admission policies in schools contradict each other.

The Constitution says that a child has the right to attend a State-funded school even if they are opting out of religious instruction. Article 44.2.4 reads:

Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

However, while discrimination in schools is generally prohibited – there is one exemption for denominational schools in the 2000 Equal Status Act.

Section 7.3 (c) states that a school does not discriminate where it admits one child in preference to another, on religious grounds.

This means that schools run under the patronage of religious organisations are entitled to exclude a child of any other religion, if a member of its own faith is looking for a place in that school.

Come September, if there are 30 places in a Catholic school up for grabs and 30 Catholic and five non-religious children are looking to enrol, the school is entitled to choose the 30 Catholic children and reject the other five. (They would not be allowed, however, to reject the five if only 25 Catholic children were looking to enrol).

shutterstock_284502623 Shutterstock / Monkey Business Images Shutterstock / Monkey Business Images / Monkey Business Images

So, if a child that is not baptised applies to a school with a religious patronage – that child can be categorised based on not being baptised and will be far further down the list compared to a child that is baptised in the faith of that school.

“You can discriminate,” is the bottom line, according to David Kenny, an assistant professor in law at Trinity College Dublin.

Speaking about the complexity of the issue to TheJournal.ie, he explained that religious institutions have certain entitlements to manage their own affairs however they like.

“At the same time there are also constitutional provisions that relatively clearly say you shouldn’t discriminate against people on religious grounds,” he said.

Even though you shouldn’t discriminate against people on religious grounds –  you can discriminate, including favouring one group in particular circumstances, if it is to enable the practice of that religion.

“Essentially if a discrimination is really necessary, to ensure a particular practise, then it’s allowed and so that sort of balance has resulted in the current situation which is allowing essentially a very broad discrimination on the basis of ethos.”

Bruton’s new bill 

Last month, Education Minister Richard Bruton launched his Admission to Schools Bill, claiming it will ban waiting lists, admission fees and explicit discrimination.

ADMISSIONS POLICY

While certain types of discrimination are addressed among the new measures, the question of categorisation by religion will not be tackled by the Bill.

EQUATE is a children and family rights organisation which works for greater equality in schools. Discussing the proposed legislation, director Michael Barron said:

It is silent on the critical issue of religious discrimination in the admissions policies of most State-funded schools. The so-called ‘baptism barrier’, which allows the vast majority of Irish national schools to discriminate against children based on their religion, is not addressed in this bill.

However, the legislation will require all schools to publish their admissions policies which are to include details of the provisions for pupils who decline to participate in religious instruction.

Kenny said the new Act does not deem the current admission policies as discrimination:

It does not change the Equal Status Act 2000, so the ‘baptism barrier’ will remain intact and schools can continue to discriminate on religious ethos grounds.

April Duff of Education Equality Ireland added, “It doesn’t address religious discrimination in schools.

It makes there be transparency in admissions, but transparent or hidden discrimination isn’t any better.

“The Bill effectively skirts around the edges, in that it would seem it fails to address the most pressing problem in school admissions: discrimination on the grounds of religion in accessing places.”

Direction of the United Nations

Tackling the high rates of religious run schools and the problems of enrolment this creates for non-religious parents has been on the government’s to-do list for quite a while.

Back in 2012 previous Education Minister Ruairi Quinn announced a divestment plan, which requested Catholic institutions (which run 90% of primary schools) to assist in changing patronage and creating greater choice.

The first phase hoped to change the patronage of around 50 schools. However, so far only eights schools have actually been created as part of the divestment process.

This has been met with widespread criticism with director of EQUATE, Michael Barron describing how, “The pace of change in the area of school admissions has been frustratingly slow.”

The UN Human Rights Committee expressed its concerned about Ireland’s slow progress in establishing non-denominational schools, a report on the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights stated:

The committee is concerned… about the slow progress in increasing access to secular education through the establishment of non-denominational schools, divestment of the patronage of schools and the phasing out of integrated religious curricula in schools accommodating minority faith or non-faith children.

However, Kenny explained that the UN is making this assessment based on international human rights standards but that in terms of a domestic situation it doesn’t have a direct bearing in legal terms.

“You can’t rely on those international instruments in a direct way. Though it’s a very important statement –  it’s mostly of political rather than legal use.

If our State can’t come up with any good solutions then we will continue to be in breach of our obligations.

Two sets of conflicting rights 

Kenny also explained that, constitutionally, there are two sets of rights in conflict regarding religion education in schools and that “not everyone’s rights can win”.

shutterstock_284501777 Shutterstock / Monkey Business Images Shutterstock / Monkey Business Images / Monkey Business Images

“You have the rights of parents who wish to get their children into primary schools being discriminated against because they aren’t the right religious status. And there are the education institutions and the parents – who are being served by them and getting preferential admission – whose rights are also at play.

If that’s the situation and you have multiple sets of conflicting rights that are in a zero sum clash, then the State and the Oireachtas legislating in that area has very wide discretion to balance those rights.

He added that there would only be a constitutional problem with the legislation if the balance struck was very unreasonable to one party and put “an overwhelming burden on one set of rights”.

Essentially it’s a higher standard than you would normally face if you were trying to challenge a piece of legislation because of the conflicting rights at play.

shutterstock_382368697 Shutterstock / Lisa S. Shutterstock / Lisa S. / Lisa S.

Chairperson of Atheist Ireland, Michael Nugent told TheJournal.ie, ”The State will have to recognise its obligations under human rights law and stop discriminating against its own citizens. You can’t have half measures in this, ultimately the laws are going to have to catch up with reality.

The people are no longer in the control of the Catholic Church the way they used to be but the laws are still in place from when the Catholic Church did have control over the people so the State and the laws and the constitution have to catch up with the people and put in place laws that respect everyone’s rights equally.

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Is this constitutionally acceptable?

Ultimately, while Bruton’s Bill has been widely welcomed – it seems it doesn’t do anything to clarify the contradiction that surrounds the religious discrimination in our schools’ admissions policies.

EQUATE has published legal advice stating that there are no constitutional issues in amending Section 7.3 (c) of the Equal Status Act.

However Kenny stated, “If push came to shove and someone challenged it – the likelihood is the courts would say it’s constitutional to have this discrimination.” 

While he warned that “it’s very difficult to say any of these things with certainty”, Kenny concluded that “the current situation probably does pass the test for constitutionality”.

religion

Read: ‘Like most of my friends, I baptised my children so they could go to school’: The anger of Ireland’s non-religious parents>

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122 Comments
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    Mute Adrian Matthews
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:35 PM

    Well as a practicing Buddhist I would prefer religion to be left tp the seeker rather than having it compulsory in schools. To me, I can go to the temple when I want to, or go on retreat, but I don’t expect everyone to follow suit. Do I think however that RE could be changed into a mental wellness class, or something similar, for the better yes I do. I mean I would rather that my kids be able to feel happy in school rather than be part of something that is inherently fractious. They’ve enough going on in school as it is. School is a time for children, teens and young adults to grow up and discover themselves to become well meaning members of society. Relgion has its place in this world, but not in schools. There’s much more we can do for kids then have this phony war every few months.

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    Mute epo eire
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 10:48 AM

    Currently the Catholic education curriculum as of 2015 have amended the RE section to be used as religious instruction rather than religious education which is different. With the addition of 2 “world” and “multi denominational” classes brought over from educate together programme world culture and worl religion into the main curriclum and out of the previoaus RE remit it has reduced the need for any other religion to focused on during this 20minute class per day. Instead teachers are instructed to prioritise and promote the stories of sacraments and other religious stories and prayer. An intensive 20 minutes of catholic religious instruction. While previously RE was used as a time for reflection and community and learning how to love your fellow man there is now a new programme in place of preparation of the sacrament for communion from junior infant rather than age 8. This information is not provided to any parent at any stage. In addition if the teacher is part of the Catholic Teacher Association that teacher does not have to reveal that to you and neither should they have to. That teacher chooses how many religious during the week and the content in addition to what the non religious children will do. So while it would be nice to educate children on stress management and mental health that seems very far away of this was the last thing they brought in 12 months ago.

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    Mute Matt Donovan
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:11 PM

    This makes my blood boil! My 6 year old is coming home telling me about God & Jesus without any concept or understanding of any of what it’s supposed to mean. That is indoctrination not education. Communions & confirmations are peer pressure induced money racket. Now she tells me that when her Nana (my mother) dies she’ll be able to still see her as she’ll be in heaven. When I enquire further she tells me that she’ll go to heaven straight away so Nana won’t be sad. Then she tells me that she has to die to get to heaven. That is the level of understanding that indoctrination & inculcation require. Leaves me fuming! Dear Jesus freaks; keep your religion at home not in schools.

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:18 PM

    You obviously don’t have the courage of your convictions.

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    Mute Keano
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:21 PM

    Sounds like your child is doing pretty ok to me to be honest. You’ve little to be worrying about if that all that’s bothering you.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:24 PM

    Incredible that our teachers,who have been trained to educate children with facts,can then so easily just flip a switch and start feeding kids as small as four years old with complete lies about Holy Spirits hovering over their heads and wine turning into blood,that’s like a doctor practicing witchcraft in an operating theatre. Surely they are signed up to a code of professionalism and have a duty of care to these children?

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:42 PM

    if you are impugning his courage Randy (which I would not presume to do), at least he has the courage to use his real name

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    Mute Joey_Westland
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:46 PM

    One of the VonDooms from Oughterard I presume?

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    Mute Seán Domhnall O'Sullivan
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:53 PM

    Im not sure what makes me madder- that or the fact Im agreeing with Tariq on something! Lol!! ;)

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    Mute Seaghán Corcoran
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 9:47 AM

    Why did you send her to a Catholic School?

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 4th 2016, 9:21 AM

    Because they have control of most of the schools in the country, and his taxes pay for it. Try to keep up.

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    Mute Seán Domhnall O'Sullivan
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:11 PM

    Don’t push your religious bias on your kids (unless rural Ireland leaves you no real other choice but to send them to local Catholic school)

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    Mute Joey_Westland
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:17 PM

    ‘Don’t push your religious bias on your kids;
    Conversely:
    Don’t indoctrinate your kids in atheist ideology.

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    Mute Joey_Westland
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:37 PM

    All parents indoctrinate their kids.

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    Mute Tony Doyle
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:39 PM

    That’s why they are parents

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    Mute Alien8
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:40 PM

    you know the difference between indoctrinate and educate?

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:42 PM

    Do you understand the concept of secular schooling, Joey? No ideology gets pushed anywhere. That’s how it should be, at least in state-run schools.

    Leave religion at home. It’s not complicated. You can tell all your kids about all the evils of atheism in your own time.

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    Mute Paddy Ryan
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:42 PM

    Remember what happened when the first kid to find out there was no Santa Claus came into school and how quick the word was spread to other kids…. It’ll eventually start happening with “god” if enough non believers send their kids to religious schools… and with teachers not really giving a crap about the god squad it’s eventually going to be impossible to stop it spreading…

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    Mute Tony Doyle
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:44 PM

    The entertainer Dave Allen always closed his show saying ” MAY YOUR GOD GO WITH YOU “

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    Mute Alex Murray
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:49 PM

    why us it so difficult just to allow state paid for education available to everyone, it’s fairly obvious that it’s the admissions process discriminate on religious grounds. can they not just make it that it’s based on locality to the school and just leave religion out of it. come on people it’s 2016 ffs

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:05 PM

    Parents are their child’s primary educator.

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    Mute Greg Kelly
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:26 PM

    Yet in every country where they have “secular” eduction, everybody scurries off to then get their kids into faith based schools like in UK France and US as they always do better and their ethos instillls the values their parents want, even if they are atheist! Go figure:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/03/14/primary-school-tables-faith-schools-dominating-rankings/

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    Mute Keano
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:29 PM

    Is it ok for atheist parents to push their ideology on their kids or are you against that too?

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:30 PM

    Secular schooling where leftie clowns teach the future generations that all cultures are equal and we should embrace a global world without Borders in the name of “love and tolerance”….no thanks, I’ll pass.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:34 PM

    What’s an ‘atheist ideology’ is it the same as when you stop believing in Santa Claus and Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer? ‘Santeist ideology’ perhaps?

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:35 PM

    No. Secular public schools where one religion isn’t promoted above others or none. Nothing to do with teaching cultural relativism (which I agree is silly).

    Why do you feel the need to conflate different issues to back up your point, Randy?

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:44 PM

    Malachi that is what the likes of Educate Together preach, they use the guise of “peace, love and tolerance” as a smokescreen to push a political worldview. Cultural relativism is at the very core of secular education.

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:44 PM

    atheism is the absence of belief rather than a belief itself, educate yo’self Keano.

    48
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:48 PM

    If we did secular schooling right we wouldn’t need Educate Together or any organisation like Amnesty to have any say. My suggestion is remove religious ideology from schooling and don’t replace it with any other ideology, neither political nor religious.

    Indoctrinate your kids with whatever you like at home, school is for learning the facts.

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    Mute Ger
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 2:32 AM

    Atheism isn’t a theology, just the way the “off switch” isn’t a tv channel or not collecting stamps isn’t a hobby.

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 6:35 AM

    Do tell us what you think atheist ideology is, Joey. LOL

    Atheism is simply a refusal or failure to believe the unbelievable and is no more an ideology than complete abstinence is a sex position.

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 10:11 AM

    That’s easy to explain. Not having an unfair monopoly anymore, faith school really up the ante on quality. As an openly gay agnostic teacher I never have experienced discrimination in UK faith schools. In saying that, my experiences were only with COE schools.

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    Mute Get Lost Eircodes
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 10:05 PM

    Kids are born Atheist…

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    Mute EmmaQ@gmail.com
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:17 PM

    As ridiculous as organised religion is, I think now would be a good time to swallow your pride and be grateful there are Christian religious schools running the show in Ireland.
    It helps stems the flow of Religious nutters from the East who want to expand their barbaric religious cult this direction.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:19 PM

    The religious nutters from the East arrived a long time ago,from The Vatican.

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    Mute EmmaQ@gmail.com
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:31 PM

    Better the nutters you know, Tariq6

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:47 PM

    Having religiously run schools does not stop other religious nutters trying to take over.

    Having secular schools that give no special privilege to any belief system will do a fine job of stopping any religious nutters no matter what flavour their ideology.

    48
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    Mute EmmaQ@gmail.com
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:54 PM

    Will Secular schools insist that no religious garments be displayed?
    Will girls be made remove headscarves? If so I am in favour, however I know it won’t work that way, they will bow down to their Islamic overlords out of fear of being called Racist.

    37
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:59 PM

    Our Government don’t have, and will never have the balls to implement the kind of secularism they have in France, no.

    But if we could get off the starting blocks and at least remove religious ideology from publicly funded schooling, that’d be fantastic. Do you think we’d crumble into an Islamic state if that happened?

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:00 PM

    Classic Emma. If it’s a poke in the eye to Muslims you’re all in favour of it. Got ya.

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    Mute EmmaQ@gmail.com
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:09 PM

    Malachi, as the only English speaking nation in the EU and with a generous University system I would suspect there would be a high demand for “Duel Pakistani/ EU citizens” to migrate here.
    Just like vampires, the sign of the cross and perceived christianity of our nation probably scares a lot of them away for now.

    Petr.. Don’t expect me to apologise for addressing one of the major threats facing this generation. How we react to it will define how future generations will live.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:16 PM

    Germany is a largely Christian nation with lots of Christian ideology in schools too, that didn’t scare any Islamists off. I don’t think the two are linked very heavily.

    Anyway, I don’t want our schooling system to be dictated by Islamists from abroad who ‘might’ come here if things were different. That would be letting them win.

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    Mute Greg Kelly
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:21 PM

    Malachi, Yes that worked so well for France with their “secular” education taking everything Christian away from the country to bow down to the Islamists . The lefties on here trying to take away our Irish heritage and culture also. Reminds me of the movie independence day where all the left loonies were on the roof of the skyscraper with signs welcoming the aliens and their culture and then they got exterminated!

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    Mute EmmaQ@gmail.com
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:22 PM

    Fair point. I just don’t like the idea of giving an inch to those who will manipulate and mould it to further that ideology.

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:25 PM

    Malachi hand the education system over to luvvies like Educate Together and they’ll be pouring the Colm O’gorman / amnesty international approved open borders, appeasement of Islam narrative into our children’s heads. If we think the current generation is “Generation Snowflake” I shudder to think what future generations who’ve gone through the Educate Together Politically Correct academy will be like.

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:27 PM

    “all cultures are equal and great” is one of Educate Together’s cornerstone and we know that to be demonstrably untrue.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:38 PM

    I don’t know why you feel the need to bring Colm O’Gorman into the discussion.

    Making our public schools secular wouldn’t give Amnesty International divine power over our education system.

    And sorry to break it to you, the types that would advocate Amnesty’s beliefs are already ingrained in the religious schools we have now. In fact the lefties you are so opposed to often visit during religion class under the guise of religious inclusivity!

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:47 PM

    i don’t know Randy i reckon they’d be able come up with something more educated than that

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    Mute EmmaQ@gmail.com
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    Aug 1st 2016, 11:03 PM

    Tariq6
    Tariq7
    and Tariq 4 all in the one thread. Its an honour.

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    Mute Yvonne Shaw
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    Aug 1st 2016, 11:06 PM

    Nope that is not one of their “cornerstones”, they just want children with different social, cultural and religious backgrounds to be treated equally.

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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Aug 1st 2016, 11:40 PM

    Lol !

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    Mute Anne de Croix
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 7:32 AM

    I think the current generation is being called ‘generation sensible’.

    I think the ‘generation snowflake’ thing is so funny because you clearly have a different idea about what it means than I do. For me, the snowflakes are the ones who whine every time anyone threatens the white, straight male social theology. I think it’s so funny. This generation is being called ‘generation sensible’ because they are not so brainwashed and indoctrinated by these thankfully dying ideas of racism, misogyny, homophobia et al.

    Long may the reversing of the indoctrination continue!

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    Mute Anne de Croix
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 7:33 AM

    By current I mean the kids who are now teenagers………the next generation

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 8:21 AM

    Nurse! Emma is having another of her turns.

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    Mute Thomas McGilly
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 10:16 AM

    Malachi, why is French secularism the way to go?

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 1:57 PM

    Because they’re the only country I know of that properly implements state secularism and punishes violation of said secular principles.

    Religion should be private, and that’s what the French system advocates.

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    Mute Thomas McGilly
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 3:35 PM

    Are you advocating that a religious world view be private while other world views are allowed in public?

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 4th 2016, 9:17 AM

    ” I just don’t like the idea of giving an inch to those who will manipulate and mould it to further that ideology.”

    This is why we don’t want 92% of our tax paid for schools run by one religion.

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    Mute Joey_Westland
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:16 PM

    ‘Chairperson of Atheist Ireland, Michael Nugent’
    Interesting.
    The atheists on these forums constantly argue that they are not part of any collective mindset yet here we have a spokesperson for this ideological groupthink.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:51 PM

    Yeah but there’s a difference between Michael Nugent going on the radio every now and again trying to change minds about religion in schools and a Pope who is supposed to speak for all Catholics.

    Michael Nugent has never claimed to, and doesn’t, speak for atheists in this country or anywhere else. Groupthink? Nah fam.

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:01 PM

    Nugent is a clown. He’s a ‘New Atheist’ in the Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris mold. In other words, a complete and utter knob.

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    Mute Randy Rukus
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:07 PM

    Great point Joey well spotted. Athiest by and large are nuts thats why I remain agnostic.

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    Mute Keano
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:27 PM

    Atheist Ireland. The answer to a question nobody asked.

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    Mute Jeremiah A Craic
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:08 PM

    I think the whole issue is a bit of a damp squid to be honest

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    Mute John Ward
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:15 PM

    @Jeremiah A Crab: I agree, its a bit fishy!

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    Mute rewop
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:13 PM

    “The people are in the control of atheists.” Those who rally most against the church are guilty of absolutism the very thing they define themselves against. History repeating itself they won’t be happy until there is only atheist schools.

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    Mute John Ward
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:22 PM

    @rewop: “Atheist schools”? WTF are atheist schools? Do you mean schools where they have sensibly decided that one religion’s dogmas should not be imposed upon the pupils. I’m all for comparative religion to be taught in schools, outlining the philosophies of world religions.

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    Mute rewop
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:36 PM

    Atheist schools where your thought to believe in nothing

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:44 PM

    Right, you do realise that no one is asking for atheist schools? I actually haven’t heard one person ever ask for such a thing.

    What people do want is religious ideology out of tax funded schooling. Or at the very least, give the religions an equal playing field.

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    Mute John Ward
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:50 PM

    @rewop: “thought” has nothing to do with it!

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    Mute Ted Logan
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:07 PM

    Children should be given the tools at school to think critically, think for themselves and explore all the possibilities.

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    Mute Theresa Cosgrave
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:16 PM

    Agree with you John.

    The secondary school system is already moving towards all religions. For JC you learn about the 5 major religions of the world and I think it goes along way in understanding cultures.

    Personally the whole mass in the PE hall and the new classrooms being blessed by the local priest is what annoys people the most. Also the admission on religion is only being used by people in these schools, that are bigots so your prob best not sending your children there. Unfortunately the other problem is the other school is already full by the time you find out (if there is another school close by).

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 6:38 AM

    Some of them teach spelling, punctuation and the use of the apostrophe as well. Pity you didn’t attend one. ROFLMAO

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    Mute David Quim
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 7:13 AM

    @ rewop “Atheist schools where your thought to believe in nothing …”

    I wonder what school you went to, because you were never taught spelling or the difference between your (a possessive pronoun) and you’re (an abbreviated form of “you are”).

    Please brush up on your English before posting again. I know you mean well and want to promote conservative, good Christian values, but you are actually doing us a disservice by coming across as an ignorant semi-literate fool.

    I’ll say a Rosary and ask God to help you improve yourself. I’ll get Breda, John and Patricia to pray for you as well.

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    Mute Anne de Croix
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 7:36 AM

    ‘“The people are in the control of atheists.” Those who rally most against the church are guilty of absolutism the very thing they define themselves against. History repeating itself they won’t be happy until there is only atheist schools.

    Seriously????? Oh dear Gods- and you want a say in how schools are run! Pah ha. No thanks.

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    Mute Catherine Mc
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    Aug 1st 2016, 11:08 PM

    If I was asked a year ago about schools and their patronages, I would have said religion should be kept out of the equation, now I think very differently, for the simple reason of what has been happening in recent times, eg the vast numbers of Muslims entering Europe and eventually Ireland, could very easily jump on the very changes that are happening in Ireland, we should keep our Christian ethos but make sure children are not discriminated against for their beliefs or none in any school in this country.

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 12:27 AM

    Swap one set of oppressive fairy tale tellers for another? If you think you’ll submit to sharia at the first threat, that’s something for you to deal with. Some of us are made of stronger stuff.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 1:16 AM

    Yes, of course Germany had this problem with Islamist predators when they secularised their scho…

    Oh wait. Germany’s schools are more religious than ours! And it didn’t stop the Sharia-fictation we all fear.

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 4th 2016, 9:23 AM

    OR maybe teach them to think for themselves and look at the facts and they will realise they are all a con. Telling them our magic man is better than theirs is not going to work.

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    Mute Keano
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:10 PM

    Looking forward to an unbiased and fair article from the Journal on this. Hahahahahahahahha.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:19 PM

    You’d love it over on the Youth Defence Facebook Page,it’s so imbalanced it fell off the Internet a few times.

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    Mute Keano
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:23 PM

    Yeah they’re well known for their views on education. Which is why I’m assuming you dragged this discussion completely off topic?

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:45 PM

    what is Youth Defence? the youth wing of the Civil Defence?

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 12:18 AM

    Jester, they’re the Hitler Youth of wombs.

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 12:27 AM

    oh good, that is exactly what the world needs right now. more people to tell women who don’t agree with them what they can and can’t do.

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 6:50 AM

    @ Jester VonDoom Youth Defence is a nasty organisation of anti-choice fanatics and street thugs who love to shove photoshopped foetus porn in the faces of passers-by, picket the homes and offices of persons who do not agree with their fanatical views and generally act like the stinking, steaming pile of turds that they are. They are, essentially, little different from that sickening and sick American organisation the Westboro Baptist Church, who picket the funerals of fallen American soldiers.

    They have repeatedly refused to reveal their funding sources, but in all likelihood they are receiving a lot of money from some of the craziest religious fundamentalists in the USA.

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    Mute Joey_Westland
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:11 PM

    ‘Section 7.3 (c) states that a school does not discriminate where it admits one child in preference to another, on religious grounds.’
    This is the substantial statement.
    Same rule applies right across the educational system.
    Is anyone going to argue that Educate Together Schools do not prioritise placement in their schools?
    That they would not give preference to a child from a trendy atheist family over a child from a Catholic background?
    OK, they may not admit it in public but we all know they do.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 1st 2016, 9:16 PM

    Wrong,the clue is in the title,they are not called Educate Alone schools.

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:59 PM

    atheists are trendy? have you been reading Pitchfork again Joey

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    Mute Bríd Uí Mhaoluala
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    Aug 1st 2016, 11:48 PM

    Educate Together do not hold the monopoly on multi d schools . Many Gaelscoileanna are also multi d

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 6:01 AM

    Children have been programmed by evolution to trust and obey adults; after all, a kid that disobeyed an adult’s command not to go near a river was likely to end up as a crocodile’s snack.

    Thus indoctrinating them with religious beliefs and stuffing their heads with fairytales about talking snakes, zombie carpenters, dudes turning water into wine and feeding Croke Park with a couple of bags of Tayto is a form of child abuse. And isn’t ONE form of child abuse – kiddy-fiddling – more than enough from the RC Church?

    A school must be a place where children actually LEARN things – perhaps even to think critically and analytically – rather than have their heads crammed with blatant lies. That’s why I’m glad my own children were able to get an excellent education outside Ireland without any church involvement.

    It must be the duty of the State to guarantee every child an education in a school within reasonable distance of their home. If parents are still misguided enough in this day and age to want to teach kids all that silly religious mumbo-jumbo, so be it, because there is little we can do about it, but keep the claws of that vile cult away from the children of rational parents who do not buy into religious guff.

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    Mute steve white
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    Aug 1st 2016, 10:00 PM

    anyone going to mention that Ruairi Quinn is an advisor to Equate who are depending on the son of a billionaire to progress equality in Education http://www.equateireland.ie/#!team/mm1tb a pretty sad indictment of his time as Minister of Education

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    Mute Screaming Toddy
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 7:49 AM

    Have voluntary Sunday school and replace religious nonsense in schools with something that’s useful. Sunday school would be like a ghost town

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    Mute Ana Montero
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 2:02 AM

    Could you please sign my petition for a Non Religious School in Dundalk? Many thanks. Ana.

    https://www.change.org/p/department-of-education-and-skills-ireland-educate-together-school-in-dundalk

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 3:53 AM

    Says Ana with a repeal the 8th logo.
    It seems like Ana is trying to change the world to what Ana wants.

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 6:15 AM

    Or maybe Ana is just trying to change Ireland into a country where the children of parents who do not subscribe to the irrational beliefs of a corrupt and discredited religious cult with a long and shameful history of ill-treating children in a variety of ways can receive an education without the danger of being exposed to that vile cult.

    Why are you religious people so afraid of losing the straitjacket that keeps you under the sway of the cult? You know that you would soon come to your senses if it were removed from you, as I have seen in many countries abroad. As soon as they get away from the peer pressure of their homeland, Irish people quickly abandon religious practice and start living a life instead.

    You should try it. LOL

    As for the Eighth, if you really think abortion is wrong, just don’t have one. Simples. And if you don’t want any woman unfortunate enough to be associated with you have an abortion, either, just keep your snag in your pants.

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    Mute oldschoolcelt
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 5:35 PM

    Says Ana with a repeal the 8th logo.
    =====

    Maybe you should change yours to a red thumb since you seem to enjoy collecting them.

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 11:49 AM

    “if there are 30 places in a Catholic school up for grabs and 30 Catholic and five non-religious children are looking to enrol, the school is entitled to choose the 30 Catholic children and reject the other five”

    The sad part here is 20 of the “catholic” kids are only baptised to get the school place. We need parents to stop doing this if it’s ever going to change.

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 12:45 PM

    Well parents stop doing it then.
    Let’s not blame the church.

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 1:50 PM

    I’m sure they will when the church stops discriminating against 4 year old children for beliefs they can’t understand never mind hold.

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 4:22 PM

    They don’t discriminate. They give preference to.
    It’s a completely different thing.
    If nobody gets a child baptised the school will take everybody.
    They don’t discriminate, however, if you feel they do then take legal action.

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 4:55 PM

    I would have thought it more Christian to prefer the honesty of the family not baptising over the family doing it for a spot in a school. These are state funded schools. hey shouldn’t be allowed to choose one 4 year old over another based on belief in some religion.

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    Mute Ana Nonymous
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    Aug 4th 2016, 8:01 AM

    These stories are complete BS in modern day. Religion is the last criteria applied even in Catholic schools. School places now days are filled up with D.O.B the cut off on the criteria before looking at anything else if needed it then falls to siblings or family in the school. Our school criteria has religion, parent teaching in the school, so billing in the school, use of Irish
    language at home, attended a naoinra and if needed a cut off point for D.O.B is applied. A colleague whose child met the criteria under, language at home, sibling at school, parent working in the school and attended the naoinra missed out on a place because of over subscription the school had to apply a cut off for D.O.B which she missed by 15 days and after all that she was still 38 on the waiting list. The problem with school places is not religion but failure to create more classrooms.

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    Mute fiona harte
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 12:27 AM

    A religious education suits most when they want it

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 12:46 PM

    It has nothing to do with whether you think religion makes any sense. It’s about choice as defended by the constitution.

    Every religion, any religion and no religion have an entitlement to have an educational system to support their ethos.

    I think non denom schools are empty, soulless and devoid of any direction but I completely support the right to have them.

    You see, Catholics don’t stand outside non denom schools calling for Christian teaching in the school. We respect the right for non denom schools to exist ALONGSIDE religious schools.

    If you want more non denom schools then go fundraise and build them, lobby your TD.

    You see, you say religion should have no place in education. That’s just your opinion. I say differently. The fair thing is to have the choice.
    Go build your non denom schools.

    You’re beginning to sound like the FAI who for years whinged at the GAA and the IRFU, moaning that they didn’t gave a stadium, simply because they were too disorganised to build one.

    Go fundraise for your non denom school. Call to my house and I’ll even give you a few euro.

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    Mute Get Lost Eircodes
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 4:14 PM

    There are no non denom schools in Ireland so if you find them empty soulless and devoid of direction you are a LIAR because you can’t have been in one.

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 4:20 PM

    Non denominational.
    I thought you might understand an abbreviation. I was wrong.

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    Mute Get Lost Eircodes
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 5:05 PM

    Ther me are no non denominational schools in Ireland you fool.

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    Mute FlopFlipU
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 7:43 AM

    Mmmmm I wonder if the child of a atheistic family started to believe in God would they kick him/ her out

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    Mute Fintan Oflaois
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 8:03 AM

    @FlopFlipU Your are, of course, trolling when you post such a silly and facetious comment. You could also turn the question around and ask what religious parents would do to a child who told them it could no longer believe in a god. Probably beat seven colours of doo-doo out of it. For the sprog’s own good, of course. LOL

    As an atheist, it didn’t bother me in the slightest that my children believed in the tooth fairy and Santa and I even went along with it and gave them money for the teeth they lost and got Santa to bring them presents as well. It was harmless, because they grew out of it.

    If only children brainwashed by religious cults in schools could likewise grow out of it as easily!

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Aug 4th 2016, 9:25 AM

    Thankfully most do nowadays.

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    Mute Patrick J. O'Rourke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 2:09 PM

    Unfortunately there are no local schools that are based on Bushido Zen for my kids locally. They will have to make do with the mainstream religious indoctrination until they start to question it and find their own path away from the ridiculous as I did when I was still young. The school religion just ensures that they will be determined to seek their own solutions to the big questions and whether there are actually any answers or not. We’re all just leaves on the big tree.

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    Mute Thomas McGilly
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 9:44 AM

    I wonder why, when writing about discrimination in education, the Journal doesn’t do a story on how Catholic and other voluntary secondary schools receive significantly less funding and resources than ETB schools.

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    Mute Firefeind
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 9:49 AM

    Anyone know whether the government can or can’t force the church and other school building owning religions to sell their property to the state? That’s the only way I can see that the state would have the right to exclusively dictate enrolment and curriculum

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 11:44 AM

    Government can’t force them.
    Ruairi Quinn tried that with tough talk but fell flat on his bald little head.

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    Mute Thomas McGilly
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 9:56 AM

    When writing a story about discrimination in education, could the Journal do a story on how the State discriminates against Catholic and other voluntary secondary schools by funding them significantly less than ETB schools?

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 11:42 AM

    Is the journal able to write about anything but the Church, Abortion or Gays?

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    Mute Get Lost Eircodes
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 4:15 PM

    ETB schools are Catholic ethos schools for which the state spends a further €9.5 million on unadvertised Catholic chaplain positions you fool.

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    Mute Thomas McGilly
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 8:38 PM

    Indeed. ETB schools get a further €9.5 million a year on chaplains while the schools under religious patronage don’t. Thanks for furthering my point. ETB schools don’t necessarily have a Catholic ethos either.

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    Mute Get Lost Eircodes
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 9:53 PM

    It funds supposed secular schools for chaplains of the Catholic religion only to the tune of an extra €9.5 million and this discriminates against religious owned schools??? Are you for fooking real?

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    Mute Thomas McGilly
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 11:24 PM

    Not only €9.5 million. That’s on top of the 30% less Religious schools get compared to ETB. Also, less teachers and less secretaries and caretakers.

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    Mute Get Lost Eircodes
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    Aug 2nd 2016, 4:11 PM

    Bruton is a Jesuit (megabucks Clongoes) educated shill for the catholic church dealing with the matter in a typical jesuetical manner i.e. Dishonestly with a veneer of honesty.

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