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A SECOND CABINET minister has appeared to reject calls for the forthcoming legislation, allowing abortion in cases where the life of the mother is at risk, to include a so-called ‘sunset clause’.
Justice minister Alan Shatter this morning said other measures of reviewing the abortion laws would be more “appropriate”, and appeared to dismiss calls from backbenchers within his own Fine Gael party to include such a clause in the Bill.
A ‘sunset clause’ refers to the idea that a legal expiry date written into the legislation – meaning any laws being brought before the Oireachtas would only have legal effect for a fixed period of time.
The calls, initiated by backbencher Michael Creed and supported by a number of his Fine Gael colleagues, are intended to enforce a review of the legislation – and possible action to close any ‘floodgates’ that may emerge under the legislation currently being drafted.
This morning Shatter sought to play down the suggestion – saying he didn’t “think that’s what my Fine Gael colleagues were suggesting”.
When corrected, and the proposal was clarified by Morning Ireland’s Cathal Mac Coille, Shatter said a review “may very well be necessary” but that it was “always desirable that the manner in which it’s operating is reviewed at some stage” – though this was “like any legislation that was ever published and enacted.”
Shatter affirmed that the legislation was necessary “to let the daylight into this particular area”.
His comments followed those of communications minister Pat Rabbitte, who agreed with the need to review any legislation that TDs may pass, but said he was “not sure that’s appropriate” when queried about the prospect of a sunset clause.
Fine Gael TD John O’Mahony told yesterday’s The Week in Politics that the sunset clause would “allow the legislation to fall after a number of years” so that politicians could examine “if the floodgates were opening”.
“It would have to be put to the people, or put to the Dáil, again,” he said. “So it may help, and I certainly would support anything that would restrict any terminations.”
Another FG backbencher, Jim Daly, said he had canvassed constituents about the idea and that “there is a widespread support for it from the people on the ground”.
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Can we have the legislation now please? Sick of all this rubbish. Make it law and let the women decide what’s best for her. It’s no one else’s business.
The “sunset” clause is to protect the unborn baby
Sure. If a woman decides to have a termination at 8 months thats ok with you? Thats not abortion, thats infanticide!
A mum’s womb should be the safest place for a baby
For those who red thumbed my comment can you tell me how long after termination do you think it’s ‘ethical’ to have an abortion?
3months, 4months, 6months?
*after conception
@John stop talking rubbish. Amazing the amount of men on this still trying to control other women’s life.
@John the answer is none of your business.
It is not controlling a woman’s life. It is saving an unborn baby’s life, who would otherwise be killed. BOTH a man AND and a woman create a baby. Would you like your wife to abort your baby?
I’d like the choice.
You should have that choice Dublin City – you brought that baby into this world as well, your wife didnt do it all herself!
Brian: it’s “saving an unborn baby” AND controlling a woman’s life. Question is, do you treat women like fully grown human beings and let them decide what’s best for them, or do you force them to do things against their will completely violating their human right to bodily autonomy for the sake of an organism that is not yet a human being (though it has the potential)?
Amazing amount of.peoe trying to “control ” life full stop. Unborn have rights. Get over it.
Brian unless you have a womb its not up to you what a woman does with hers
Shane, there is a baby inside that womb
Here, here
Stephen, if we conducted all our affairs with a “get over it” attitude I’d imagine life would be cruel and chaotic.
You can’t “get over” the fact that you’re violating a human right. I’d like to see you tell a woman so desperate for an abortion that she would risk her life to “get over it”.
And if people didn’t “control” life, we wouldn’t have contraception, life saving heart transplants etc etc etc. Really now, you’re being reactionary and silly.
Brian, so if your wife decided to kill her unborn baby, that is also YOUR unborn baby, you would do nothing to stop her?
Well Brian how would you like it if you were raped then had to be reminded of that rape every minute that you are awake for 9 months would you enjoy that.
Brian how would you like your wife being denied cancer treatment because she was pregnant?
Bryan whilst a man may be involved the woman is committed.
A sunset clause means that legislation will lapse at a given point in the future.
I am not sure how lapsed legislation in relation to providing legal clarity to clinicians, and reassurance to women and their partners, when very difficult choices have to be made in obstetric practice can protect human life.
I think those who are promoting this notion of a sunset clause need to seriously reflect on the possible unintended outcomes of their suggestion.
Agreed Margaret. I don’t for one moment believe that these are issues of ‘conscience’ since these politicians have none – as they have ably demonstrated in their attacks on people who have been born. Both able bodied and the disabled. This is more to do with re-election than anything else.
John F, you’re wasting your time. They don’t want to answer that question
It is a ridiculous suggestion to put a collapse date on such a vital piece of legislation. Fair enough, all laws should be reviewed frequently but to have a date that the law would cease would be a grave mistake. Typical spineless Fine Gael backbenchers trying to keep the vote of the local holy Joe’s instead of doing what’s right for the country.
Actually, FG are bringing in legislation “spineless” FF wouldn’t touch with a barge pole. It’s a sensible suggestion that the law would be subjected to a very thorough review as laid out in the Sunset clause idea lest any suicide provision is abused.
Fine Gael are a “prolife” party. That is why they want a sunset clause
Yes, Brian. Absolutely. And it’s one of the reasons I vote for them.
Yes, Vincent, I saw a picture of an aborted baby when I was 12 years old. I have been prolife ever since
Personally, I think those shock tactics do more damage than good to the pro-life argument. Makes it very easy for the pro-abortion advocates portray pro-life as extremists or religious zealots. Anyway. I hope sense prevails.
Vincent I am not a “religious zealot” – all i care about is the baby in the Mum’s womb, which doesnt have a voice, unlike the pro abortion lobby which have a very loud mouth – not naming anybody!
“all i care about is the baby in the Mum’s womb” – says it all really.
Grow up…people are not pro abortion it’s called pro choice…..
are you female eleen? – it doesnt sound like you are
Nobody should be given the “choice” to kill their unbon baby.
it shows you never had a baby yourself sharon – you would feel differently if you had a baby growing inside you
What, because she’s pro-choice? Funnily enough Brian, not all women fantasise about being pregnant 24/7.
”it shows you never had a baby yourself sharon – you would feel differently if you had a baby growing inside you”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh I do love irony!!
This brian dude is a piece of work, isn’t he?
The only reason why he’s asking me if I’m female is so he can go “ohh, you’re a man so you wouldn’t understand how it feeeeelz” or worse: “well as a woman you should be super happy to have a cute little happy baby growing in you, will make you feel complete because women can’t feel complete without it. if you don’t you’re not a real woman.”
@brian that comment shows your ignorance..I have a gorgeous little daughter and yes I am still pro choice…my life, my body, my choice. I don’t know any woman who would choose abortion lightly. ..it is a personal decision….
I know women who chose abortions lightly
Sure ya do, Chuck. And I’m sure they talk about it with you too, Mr. judgmental anti-choicer.
There’s posters up around where i live…with local f.g candidates on it with the slogan…”will they keep their election promises of no abortion. There’s a lovely youth defense logo at the bottom. Id love to rip them down but that would be pointless
The Sun will never set on this argument, and the debate will be dragged on to infinity.
… and more babies will be killed
News flash Brian, people die all the time, I don’t see you up in arms outside a hospital or cemetery! Give it a rest.
A so called sunset clause for legislation that will either criminalise or legalise an activity is at best perverse or at worst plain stupid.
How can any sane legislature create a situation were a perfectly lawful activity will become illegal merely by the effluxion of time?
A sunset clause is to protect the unborn baby – surely you cannot be in favour of murdering an unborn baby
You’re getting tiring, brian. These old-school anti-choice tactics are stale and just damage your cause.
Are you female eleen?
So how would that work?
It’s not a baby, and it’s not murder. Stop making things up.
If you believe it’s murder, wouldn’t your time be spent better lobbying for the offence to be changed from procuring an abortion to murder and pushing for prosecution?
Joh F. Have to admire your lovely red herring there. There is no call for abortion to be brought in up to 8 months and well you know it. Go and read the reports of Savita Halapanbavar’s last few days of life. Read the text of the proposal which was voted for in TWO referenda and then come back with some sensible suggestions to support your argument.
If you actually read my reply you would have realised I was responding to the comment that stated that abortion is no ones business except for the woman concerned!
21 years and two referendum later, rulings and supervision from the EU Court of Human rights, and still they delay in X Case legislation, which will not cover the right to an abortion which the majority of the people agree to.
Then the right hand said “whatcha’ doin leftie?”
“blinding ‘em with science and baffling ‘em with bullshite” says leftie.
“oh, I didn’t know that!” crys right hand.
Just so typical of Irish politicians. Doesn’t seem 2matter, Whether its matters of economic survival, abortion or any other issue/legislation dat mite require sum thought process and work. Our politicians always try 2simply kick d can down d road and leave it as the next guys problem. F*ckin cowards.
I only agree with abortion in certain cases, where a woman has been raped or in extreme medical circumstances. I think to prevent the need for it in other cases,the education of people in the use of birth control should come into play. I would hate to see it being used as a late form of contraception.
Education, better access to contraception as well as a significant mark down in the price, or make it free. We’d also need a change in our culture as the stigma and shame attached to anything sex related is still pretty strong. Teenagers and children need to be taught at an early age to respect themselves and each others boundaries. The nasty double standards need to go.
Then we’d see a significant decline in people needing abortions.
But that’s never going to happen any time soon.
Vanessa that is a mute comment. There has been 2 referenda on this subject. It is time to implement the will of the majority. Not discuss it for another 20 yrs.
Moot point not “mute”.
I am wasting my time writing my prolife comments here – everybody is in favour of abortion on this site
no , just sick of your trolling
Oh don’t go. We love reading the same exact argument over and over from you…and how you insist on calling a foetus a baby.
@Brian you are wasting your pro life comments because you are not looking at the bigger picture on this issue what about the rights of the mother to life?
Fred, did you ever put your hand up to your wife’s tummy and feel the “foetus” kicking?
Did you ever go into the hospital with your wife and look at the monitor of the “foetus” growing within her?
I suspect not!
Brian, you ever had something growing inside your body that you were desperate to not be there?
Ever suffer from post-natal depression, back pains and pelvic problems, all at once?
Ever felt traumatised by the idea of giving birth?
I suspect not.
How could you not want a baby growing inside you Penelope?
That is not natural for a woman
Brian if u stuck to facts instead of scare mongering u and ur cause might be taken more seriously. The x case ruling does not allow abortion on demand. It only allows termination when a woman’s life is in danger. Including the suicide clause. Nowhere I know of wud consider a termination at 8 months. So wise up.
Brian I think I can safely say most women would agree with me that your last comment is skin-crawlingly disgusting.
No Brian I have not. I am happily unmarried and childless. I am happy for you that you’ve experienced these things, but not everyone views a foetus the same way as you. I’m not being pedantic. I feel it’s important to distinguish between a baby and a foetus – particularly in the early stages or pregnancy when most abortions occur. Pretending they are the same thing clouds the argument, which I am sure is your intention.
Yeah, seconded. Go home Brian, you’re drunk.
Seriously? Troll.
I think, brian, that you would drive me to drink.
“I think, brian, that you would drive me to drink”
… you might get pregnant then eleen and love a baby growing inside you!
Brian.
You will never have a baby grow inside of you. I have had two miscarriages – thank goodness, because pregnancy could be fatal for me.. But you “pro lifers” don’t like to admit that it’s not all sweetness and light, there’s times where abortion is necessary otherwise you lose the foetus and the woman carrying it. So how about you join the rest of us in reality huh?
The Irish people have spoken. Abortio. Is permissible if there’s a risk to the woman’s health – including the risk she may commit suicide. If you don’t like it, tough.
Careful brian, your troll is showing.
Of course he’s a troll, from a North Korea article “STOP SENDING THEM MONEY AND STOP FEEDING THEM!”, such humanity, he’ll stand up for the right of a single foetus to be born, but he also supports the starvation of millions. Bravo.
Your right there Brian…almost everyone on here is Pro -Abortion (even though they don’t like that terminology.)…
They prefer to use “Choice”, as if that “word” would make any difference to the end result of the abortion, the ending of a Human Life..
They are all in favour of legalisation for the x case, even though they know it’s flawed (and all the top perinatal doctors at the hearings said it was not treatment for suicidal thoughts, plus recent research shows its not best treatment) because they see it as a stepping stone to abortion on demand..
Which is most of the Pro Abortion ultimate aim..
You will be called a Troll, a Fundamentalist, Brainwashed, or just plain ignorant…
You obviously Must be a Catholic because obviously its only “them” that would possibly object to a Human Life being ended..
You never speak for yourself, U have to be a mouth piece for either Youth Defence of some other “crazy” Pro Life group..
We are all Anti Woman of course, even though some of the aborted may be female but that doesn’t matter as long as the woman involve doesn’t have the inconvienence of “being a brood mare”, or “being a host for a parasite with the potential to be Human at some stage”. Or the “inconvienence of having to start parenting again after sending their youngest off to university” etc etc etc”
They don’t like to look at the situation in England where restricted abortion was permitted and it has been abused and misused by thousands upon thousands of woman..
Of course we don’t believe that any woman should be allowed life saving treatment as we value the foetus above all else..
Or so that is what they would like to convince themselves and everyone that is how we are!! I’m sure have missed some more things though, but I’m sure i will be told soon… sad really
It’s never possible that you just do not believe in abortion.. The direct intentional ending of a Human Life..
By all means, have your beliefs Bridget, that issue is not in question, don’t have an abortion if you don’t want one. Why deny someone who does not share your beliefs what they accept is right for them (for a multitude of difficult scenarios)?
I take back all I said about this Lydon – this is evidence of mental illness, which I had mistaken for stupidity. My bad.
60% of those having abortions are mothers – maybe we should listen to those who have actually been pregnant and borne a child?
@Shanti Om, my goodness, I’m sorry to hear that. All the best.
Cheers Who’s Yer Man, obviously I use contraception but it has failed twice before.. Can’t tell you how scary it is to be in this country when your period is late and you have the complications I have..
Everyone here is pro abortion – I am giving up!
Oh don’t go. We love reading the same exact argument over and over from you…oh wait. I already said this. No need for me to repeat myself. Sorry Brian.
How many abortions do people want? Can any of the pro choice types give me an indication of what numbers are accepable to you? 1,000? 2,000? 5,000?
Who wants 4 or 5 thousand abortions per year? Well?
What limit would you but on the number of abortions per year to save the lives of women, to safe guard the health of women, for fatal fetal abnormalities or in cases of rape or incest?
By the way 4,000 women already travel to the UK a year, so those abortions are already happening.
That’s what I thought, there’s upwards of 4000 happening as it is, so talk of “acceptable numbers” is kinda academic is it not? In reality they’re likely to make the criteria so restrictive that anyone who can travel still will.. It being FG they are most likely to just be window dressing to keep the ECHR off their backs..
So out of curiosity, how many females would you allow to die from complications that arise from a pregnancy, who could be saved by an abortion, in order to preserve the rights of an unborn foetus?
* HINT: If it >1 then you can hardly class yourself as Pro-Life.
If they are given the correct treatment then none have Ti die..
Doctors do give life saving treatment to woman in this country all the time even if it means the ending of life for the unborn but you see it’s all in the intension…
30 or more terminations are carried out here every year. We all know the figures by now. What I’m asking is how many do you people want.
Do you want New York type numbers? Fogging me off with off-handed stupid comments isn’t any kind of reasonable answer.
I’d like no Irish women to have abortions (if not medically necessary) because they had free and useful access to birth control and sex education. Yet so long as this is not available, Irish women will have abortions.
Why are you not lobbying to reduce unplanned pregnancies (which would mean less abortions) rather than petitioning for a situation where they still occur, you just don’t know about it?
It’s hardly “fogging” you off (it’s fobbing). People don’t “want” abortions in that if it was avoidable, they wouldn’t. So, your disingenuous suggestion that people who are pro-choice want a fixed number is rather offensive, and you in fact undermine your own “high-road” with petty insults and jibes like this.
Me & my family have always voted FG.
Most FG voters I know, have reservations or concerns, regrding the upcoming legislation.
Very few Irish people want to go down the road, of what is happening in the UK, – which is truly horrific.
The ‘sunset clause’ would give legislators, some reassurance, regarding this.
Evidence of your assertions there please Zoe. And your family aren’t necessarily representative of the whole country…
Or has it slipped your mind that the Irish people have voted, twice, to deem suicide risk valid grounds to access abortion services (as well as the right to travel and information).. All the recent independent opinion polls have shown support for legislation.. Ireland may be more pro choice than you wish to admit to yourself..
Wow Zoe while you think the situation in the UK is awful you would gladly allow Irish women to have only that choice. Why cant we look after our own women here instead of forcing them to the UK. I am not pro abortion but pro choice & I feel we need to take reponsibilty for our own here. Lets reach a compromise & do right by our women & give them a choice.
The ‘sunset clause’ would provide an ass covering for legislators who should not need any reassurance.
A ‘mute’ comment,surely thats a contradiction in itself. I am saying that i think there should be some abortions available in certain circumstances. I dont think they should be freely given out, when that happens i think they can be used as a form of contraception, which in my opinion is wrong. If young people were educated about prevention of unwanted pregnancies, it may reduce the need for this procedure. I think when you are a parent yourself it changes your view of what you consider a baby. Its very easy to become detached from that if you havent experienced it. I am not religious or part of the pro life movement so that has nothing to do with my opinion. I want to see abortion available in certain cases but not as a form of contraception. I also think that when it is used this way it harms the mental health of the mother,who can find it hard to deal with after.
Is that not fallacy though? Slippery slope.. Oh if we allow this highly restrictive access it’ll open the floodgates and before you know it everyone will be having abortions! Sounds like Youth Defence / Iona rhetoric to me..
I would agree, contraception is better than having to have an abortion. An abortion is expensive, it makes you feel rotten physically and mentally, no one in their right mind will use it as “contraception”, but contraception should be free and sex / relationship education mandatory.
In reality we’d likely hand over the termination process to clinics and specialits services same as the UK. You won’t get a chance to hear wht the terminations were for.
You might call it rhetoric, Shanti, but in the UK abortion is only legal where two doctors agree it is necessary to preserve the mental or physical health of the mother and yet 1/5 pregnancies ends with abortion
An apparently restrictive policy ended up being abortion on demand with a mere wink & a nod
So what Vanessa if its the same women coming back (which I imagine is exaggerated by the way), what business is it of anyone’s? Whether someone gets one abortion or 10, Is the woman who had 10 abortions and another woman who only had one any different to each other? Lucky for me my contraception has always worked but I still don’t think I have the right to make that decision for anybody else! Unfortunately we don’t live in an ideal world where we can all hold hands around the camp fire and sing kumbyeya. Once a woman has that baby nobody cares!!!!
Give me a break,i cant have an opinion without it belonging to someone else. Im not a sheep, i dont believe something because someone tells me to. A friend had to spend part of her training working in the abortion clinic of an NHS hospital, she said you would see the same women coming back time & time again. What would you call that only using it as a form of contraception. If we allow abortion in this country it should be in certain cases.
Some women can’t use contraception which involved artificial hormones and if it’s an repeat issue then those women need to be refereed on to follow up services.
Haven’t made a firm decision on it to be honest, when I do you’ll be the first person I consult Stephen, your opinion is of paramount important to me and many many others.
And thats why this shower want a timed review of the legislation. Comprendes?
A first year law student could tell you that a sunset clause is unconstitutional.
Cowardly politicians seek way to diffuse concern about difficult issue in order to increase chances of reelection.
Take a stand based on belief, not popularity lads, and while your at it, can we stop using the term ‘Floodgates’?
Once again the government lacking in courage to address this issue, hiding behind empty words. Utterly disgusting that this government will not act on the wishes of the people.
Karolyn, there is a major difference in a woman having one abortion or ten. I think if a woman were to have ten it would prove my point that it can be used as a form of contraception. The girl i was speaking about was not exaggerating, why would she, she had no reason to, it was an obeservation. I think there has to be a limit on what is allowed in relation to abortion. After 6 weeks there is a heartbeat, so like it or not you are terminating a life however you view it personally. I know women & young girls can forget or not take their contraceptive properly & the result can be an unwanted pregnancy. It is an awful situation to find youself in & i have witnessed with close friends the effect of it. I’m not comfortable with abortion being too freely available without restrictions. There are dozens of forms of contraception available & more education about them should be more available. I think prevention is better than cure. I’m sick of repeating the same argument again & again here. I have no problem with abortion in the case of rape , if the mothers life is at risk or if the baby has a life limiting condition & will not survive after birth.
have your say