We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
NINE THOUSAND EURO.
That is the figure, probably conservative, that I posited in a recent discussion amongst friends.
We have all played in bands and we were wondering how much of a loss we were running at.
For me, having played in bands for over a decade, that figure was €9,000.
You won’t know my name from anywhere but TheJournal.ie and you won’t have heard any of the songs I’ve made, so losing that amount of money isn’t a huge deal.
I mean, it is a huge deal. Nine grand is a good chunk of a house deposit or a car (or 90 cars if you buy my first car again).
But as a payment towards a hobby for over a decade, it’s not that bad.
While home recordings and the internet make getting your music made and heard easier in theory, the reality remains that making music remains pretty unprofitable for the vast, vast majority of people.
Where does it go?
Obviously, this begs the question, where does all that money go?
Let’s assume you get your first instrument as a Christmas gift because Santa is good to you. So that’s anywhere from €150 – €1,000 saved.
If you play a guitar or keys, you can get away without buying an amp for gigging or practice, but you wouldn’t want to. So you need to shell out a minimum of €350.
Practice spaces run from €40 to €70 a week, so you’re paying that around 45-60 times a year depending on how busy you plan on being.
On top of that, there’s travel, food, leads, pedals, website hosting, photographers, Facebook ads, gear rental, recording, mastering and CD production.
So, you can see how €9,000 can come up fast.
Jonathan Savino has made music under a plethora of names. Having been around the Dublin music scene for over a decade, he is preparing to release an album under the name Super Hyper Giant.
For him, the trick is to not think about the money.
“For me, it’s not about the money at all. I do this because I love making music and I love writing music.
For the latest album, I’ve had to ask people to invest in me and I’ve had to give away parts of the songwriting. So I’m asking people to trust me when they don’t have a reference point.
“If I went and did the Kickstarter, or Fundit, I’d be asking people to fund something that they’d never heard. And then you’re in a position where it’s your mates funding it, and you can’t ask people to do that.
“You can also only go back to that well a couple of times.
“But I’ve discovered the art of asking. If you don’t put yourself out there and ask, you’ll get nothing.”
Fund Me
The crowdfunding model Savino touched on is an interesting one for bands. It’s also one fraught with anxiety if you don’t have a built-in fanbase.
You’re essentially saying to your friend and family: You’re going to be guilted into buying this anyway, can I have the cash upfront?
For established bands, however, crowdfunding is a perfect way to eliminate the middle man between yourself and your fans. You get to pre-sell a product, the fan feels involved and no record company is there to skim money off the top.
But while you’re not getting any money from venues and taking time off work, it can be difficult to fund things yourself.
One interesting addition to this landscape is Patreon.
The Patreon model allows users pay anywhere from €1 to €500 every time a creator posts something. This allows musicians who post videos or songs to nail down a regualr income stream at minimal cost.
Founder Jack Conté is a musician himself and told Music Ally last year why he set the website up.
There are people who have an audience of 100,000 fans. Imagine that: 100,000 weekly visitors who are enjoying your stuff. But with modern advertising CPMs, that’s nowhere near enough to make a living.
“Yet that’s a football stadium full of people! That should absolutely be enough.”
Patreon last week announced it had taken in €27 million in new funding as it plans expansion, and last year signed up artist Amanda Palmer, who now makes $33,000 (€29,000) every time she posts.
State of the Nation
Given that Ireland has always had a history of churning out bands and musicians, some might question why the State doesn’t offer more support. Others will say that the arts should be a private enterprise, but we’ll leave that argument to the comments section.
In fact, Ireland does have a support mechanism for bands – an Arts Council-funded board called First Music Contact (FMC).
There, bands are given practical advice on how to manage themselves and given opportunities to attend some of the world’s best festivals – such as South By Southwest, Eurosonic and Canadian Music Week.
FMC has helped basically every Irish band you can think of at some point in the last few years – Kodaline, Lisa Hannigan, James Vincent McMorrow, Delorentos, The Coronas, Jape, Declan O’Rourke, Fionn Regan.
While Arts Council funding to make an album or go on tour is difficult to come by, the body does run CultureFox and is actively encouraging bands and musicians to see themselves as part of the arts community across Ireland.
Angela Dorgan who runs FMC told TheJournal.ie that they pay a larger percentage out to bands than they get from the Arts Council.
“We run Hard Working Class Heroes as a showcase. So it’s not a professional festival in that way, but the cost of flying bookers, agents and label reps is all covered as well as the backline costs.
But after it, we run Music Trails on New Year’s Eve. At that, 38 of the 100 HWCC bands got paid €150 for a 20-minute acoustic set.
FMC is also involved in the soft-launch of an app called Firststage, which allows acts play “live” using augmented reality. That app delivered €700 for eight bands involved with the early testing.
While that may not sound like life-changing money, it represents an avenue for musicians that never existed beforehand.
Dorgan also pushes bands to back each other.
We have 11,000 bands on our Breaking Tunes website. Imagine that the 11,000 bands in Ireland’s music industry were buying each other’s albums.
In Canada, things are different.
“We have some great organisations like Factor and OAC (Ontario Arts Council) and Canadian Arts Council that all fund musicians projects,” says Beth Moore, a Niagara Falls based singer-songwriter whose most recent album Five Out Of Ten was released last year.
There are varying levels depending on what level you are at professionally. I personally won the OAC popular music grant for $6,000 and the Factor (Foundation Assisting Canadian Talent on Recordings) juried sound for $13,000.
She says that many don’t apply for grants because the system can be obtuse and you “have to work for it”.
Live funding
It’s generally repeated nowadays that playing live is where the money is for bands these days. But what if venues and promoters don’t pay?
You pay to book the space yourself, bust your backside to promote it and get your friends and family to go, and… hope.
Savino is hopeful that when he launches his album on 4 March in Whelans that he might make €1,000. Not small money in any man’s language, but not exactly huge, when you factor in the costs.
I had to get a live band because I did the album myself, so once I pay the five of them and pay costs, there’s not a whole lot left over.
Even if the Canadian grants system is better, the venues still don’t pay much, says Moore.
“Especially not in comparison to the amount it costs to put out albums.”
This situation is largely similar for acts in the US and UK, where “exposure” is the currency of the day.
“It would be great to get musicians together and form some kind of a union,” says Savino.
But there’ll always be a band hungrier than you willing to do it for free.
Success story
Dorgan says that all kinds of things are working for bands, citing Sleep Thieves as an Irish band doing well on Spotify. However, the margins on streaming services are thin.
Here’s one day in October for my own band. 17 streams worked out at a massive 0.078 cents. American. Split four ways.
Dorgan says that the strategy has mixed the new ways – Spotify, crowdfunding, pre-selling – and old: gigging, meeting with labels, working hard.
There is no silver bullet to funding an album for unsigned bands. We found a few years ago that the Credit Union funded more Irish releases than all the major labels.
Love of the game
The vast majority of people in bands will give up around about the time “the real world” comes calling. Mortgages and babies take precedence over microphones and basses.
But some will stay in it, spurred on by their desire to create.
“I’ll be doing it for as long as I’m alive, money or no money,” says Savino.
Some people are happy enough to put thousands into a car or following a football team. For me, it’s making music.
Moore echoes that sentiment.
“Everything will cost you money and you’ll have to hustle no matter what you choose to do in life.
If you’re passionate about it you’re going to naturally want to push beyond your limits creatively, financially, emotionally, in every area, so it’s kind of what I signed up for.
“It’s been a struggle, but it’s been worth it also.”
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
I played in a band in the 90′s as did many others. We would be paid for gigs in beer or small amounts of cash. We would then spend that money on beer at that club/pub and so giving it back to the people who paid us. Never made a money but had the time of my life and would not change that for anything.
Fully agree with the last bit. You get a good night, a good gig and it’s amazing.
All the time undercutting professional band that are paying vat at the upper rate and taking on earned income. Yeah you’re ledge’s.
Taxed*
How do you know they are not professional? When my band gets booked we never ask are they sure they don’t wan’t someone more professional. Venues only pay cover bands and tribute acts well enough to get close to tax levels. If a band is paying tax at the upper rate they are doing ok for themselves and probably needing bigger venues than WJH is talking about.
If you guys are into it my new album is up for preorder on iTunes or google. Sorry bout the shameless plug. I’m the broke musician in the article
Retro / Futuristic by Super Hyper Giant
https://itun.es/ie/S4Uoab
I will if you will…;-) – https://danielprendiville.bandcamp.com/album/d-o-ub-t
Never stop hustling, I’ll check you out
Was ploughing away in original bands for 17 years, always at a loss but was more than worth it for the times and the craic. Alas, I’ve recently fallen into the ‘gave up around about the time “the real world” came calling’ category. Oh well.
I played in a band for a number of yrs. It’s a young man’s game. It’s the cute hoors over last 10-15 yrs singer songwriter types, ya those guys, feck all gear and set up shop most anywhere. Chix love em. But Every band has been ripped off, it’s a right of passage. It’s a dirty game but all loves of the heart are.
It’s a shit business.
…You’ll find out.
If you’re good enough and the songs are good enough you’ll be successful. To be honest its a bit lousy and sounds like sour grapes to blame the cost or record labels. It’s like me saying the reason I was never scouted to play for Real Madrid as a kid was because they never gave me the chance. Wrong, it was because I was $hit!
I wholeheartedly disagree. Some bands I’ve known have made amazing songs, but the key is in the 11,000 number. That many people making music means that only the best organised away from the songs stand a chance. Some incredible bands can’t get out of their own way or don’t know how to promote themselves, so they never get heard.
One major problem is because so many people are now recording at home, the market and many sites have been flooded with pap. It’s very difficult to record at home when using instruments. Much easier and cheaper if you’re involved in synthetic music of any kind. It’s also simple to mix. Not so, when dealing with instruments and vocals.
It’s all about PR. No matter how good your song or album is it doesn’t matter if no one gets to hear it.
The proliferation of shit bands has never been so obvious, Paul. I’m a full-time musician myself with one of the best equipped studios in the county. Probably the best outside of Dublin in fact. It certainly was 3 or 4 years ago, but I haven’t checked since. As studios have generally downsized and become very common too, you have absolutely sub-standard recordings all over the place.
What you have now are bands that can play only the album they have recorded. That’s pretty useless when it comes to making a living by playing live. Playing live is now the earner for bands, yet the vast majority of bands these days never earn their apprenticeship. They are mainly studio bands consisting of average musicians and it’s the recording engineer who makes it sound far better than it actually is. They can;t play live together even in the studio half the time and so it’s multi-tracked instead. There are very very few good bands out there.
Ireland’s independent music scene is unfortunately lacking in comparison to what Canada offers up. At many of the shows I’ve played/attended in Canada, the floor is packed with music fans who dance and gyrate, basically get really into it, and frequently attend shows and buy merch/CD’s (AKA, there IS A SCENE). I’m even talking small towns in Ontario, AND the music IS ORIGINAL (not all covers). The many times I have travelled Ireland (although admittedly I have not spent a lot of time in Dublin or Cork, where there are likely decent scenes that I’ve missed), I have tried to find the same kind of thing but the vast majority of what is on offer is either cover bands in bars, or Irish trad music. On top of that, the crowd sucks, sorry to say. Lot’s of people hanging around pints in hand, not even paying attention to the band. It’s sad too, because on average, I’d say Irish musicians are quite a bit more talented than the average Canadian player. I REALLY want to bring my band to Ireland, but it seems like it would be very difficult to justify it/find a decent scene to play to. Please tell me I’m wrong!
Jamie to be fair you’re not really in an informed position to comment on the state of Ireland’s live scene if you havn’t visited the two biggest markets in Cork and Dublin. International bands tour here successfully all the time.
Yeah foreign bands like HOLLANDS U2, play here also from time2time & all their profits earned here are tax free.
If they are talented, can write and sing good music? Then they’ll succeed, the rest are just vampires and suck at it.
That’s not how it works at all.
Leaders of Men, New Secret Weapon, The Ground will Shake, Neon Atlas.. Just 4 bands that are playing well above average music and not making it right now. Playing to venues of 300-4000 punters while Jedward fill the 3 Arena. Being good has nothing to do with it.
Amazing bands
Ok so I say this as someone who makes their living as a full time musician (which is all I ever wanted to
Be) So for once I know what I’m talking about on the journal comments. There are many bands that make money in this country. They’re called wedding bands!
There are gigs you do for art and there are gigs you do for money. Don’t over-mystify the role of a musician. There is a role for music as a means of self expression. But there is also a social role wether it’s playing wedding, parties or corporate functions. Good musicians want to earn a living. And like anyone in any job they want to do the stuff that interests them but you can’t expect to do that all the time and maintain a good standard of living. To believe you can is self indulgent.
If you want to be an artist and believe that technique or ability is not as important as the vibe well then the chances of success and working in music are slim at best. If you want do want to you spent the endless hours leaning your instrument go to college get your degree. Take every gig you’re going you don’t know what gig you’ll get from another Bands may be losing revenue but music directors who are versatile, are as adept at recording techniques as they are at arranging and playing ability are more and more in demand. It will also give you the experience and leanness as a musician that will strengthen your more personal work.
Technique and ability is important but some people want to create and not be defined or put in a box by others. I don’t make music to make money but to be expressive. When I make money great but it’s not my main concern. If your happy being in a wedding band great, if your happy giving people what they want great. It’s just not for me, I’d rather keep my day job. Music for me is a joy, it’s shouldn’t feel like work.
To be totally honest, and a lot might not agree, but from what I’ve seen from friends and friends of friends, it’s gotten a whole lot easier to make a living from DIY music. The internet opened the floodgates, and if you’re making great music, have a decent enough online image and know how to interact with people you’ll make money. Not millions, but enough to live off your music. Then once you have that you keep building, touring, videos etc. And the cream always rises to top.
BUT, saying that. I’m basing those examples off people in know in the UK, when it comes to making a living off music in Ireland you’re screwed if you don’t have connections to people in the biz. And chances are until you make it big in the UK, they won’t want anything to do with you over here.
Not a chance you can make a living off music in the UK these days. Possibly if your doing it as a hobby and have an full time job doing something else.
@Nikki
Off the top of my head I know at least 5 doing it. They’d probably make more if there were working a 9-5 but they are scraping, and not living in London which is a blessing for price and close enough to get there when needed for gigs, which is how they are making the majority of their money, some playing multiple sets in a night. Bandcamp is another blessing, merch, digital music and CDs/Vinyl all bringing in a steady enough amount of income for them as well. Pretty regular releases though, you can’t throw up an album a year and expect to make enough profit from it!
In many ways it is like the cottage food industry. Some people like making their own jams and relishes. If one day they decide its good enough to sell they have to form a strategy to bring it to market and ensure sucess. A badly formed and exexuted strategy will mean failure. If the relish or jam is not that tasty it will also fail. If the market is smothered in people trying to sell these products then it will be even harder for your product to suceed even with the best marketing strategies. U2 are like the mayonnaise of music while kodaline are the light version of mayonnaise. I also feel ballymaloo are like the script. One final point is that of demand. Ketchup and mayonnaise are always going to be on top and if you think you can knock them off the top with your curry and apricot relish your need to come back to reality. Sometimes there are rare succuess like Chipotle reggae reggae sauce when you have a good strategy and nice financial support. In summary, do what you love, try to make others love it. If you fail keep trying and still do what you love. Its win win.
This day and age singers will find it hard to make money as there’s links to download the singers YouTube song to a MP3 why wd people want to buy their song on iTunes then as they already gave the full song for free …
It’s a case of just wanting to play. Forget about the money or making it, but the reality is you need to fund it by working or whatever. So if you’re working and you’re doing ok, and it comes time to take more and more time off work in order to play abroad or midweek etc. What do you do? Do they tour, then come back to Ireland with no income? It’s hard to call.
They sing
Work from home
Jobs for all. I recommend Clixsense. Join free and start earn money
These 70 quid a week rehearsal studios definitely interest me. We would pay 50 per night sometimes.
When I think back to people like The Beatles, Rolling Stones and a host of others, they all played covers as well as their own stuff. Somewhere along the way, a serious snobbery kicked in and divided the original acts from the cover bands. That snobbery was pretty much original artists shooting themselves in the foot. Your average music listener wants to hear things they are familiar with, and if you throw in some of your own, it just might capture their imaginations. Yes, there are a limited amount of people who like to go and listen to original bands, but they are too few to keep a scene going or mean that the bands will get paid.
have your say