He’s not blaming others. He’s making a valid point that we are thought Irish for 10 years in school as part of our curriculum and despite that rarely anyone speaks the language upon leaving. That’s pretty disgraceful and it must come down to how it is taught.

Padraic you come across as one of those Irish speaking zealots, who claim to have a superior moral and nationalistic claim because you can speak Irish, It is the Zealots who have had control of the language and destroyed it. school thought me to hate Irish, since the foundation of the state the teaching and promotion of Irish has been a spectacular failure driven by fanatics, I concur with everything Daniel said. The way we were taught French and Irish were complete opposites Learning more French in a few years than Irish in 14 years.

Well said Padraic! Too many people willing to blame the government or Dept of Education for their own shortcomings. Everyone got a similar level of schooling in this country, but most people find that, after the leaving cert, there are very few places where any knowledge of Irish is needed. So just like calculus, Shakespeare, and the effects of glacial erosion; most people forget everything that they learned & no longer have a requirement for. The problem is people… Not the system!

Thats a bad comment Padraic ….Hes actually making a good point in favour of Irish

ktsiwot: either you don’t understand what a zealot really is, or you’ve made some pretty dramatic assumptions about Padraic. All he said was that yer one could easily go & learn irish instead of moaning about it. That’s hardly a fanatical statement. (Wait, am I an English speaking zealot now that I’ve demonstrated a better understanding of the language than you???)

It hasn’t to do with the teaching of Irish per se. It has to do with the perceived possibility of using the language in the spoken arena, in a natural conversational setting. People learning French or German perceive the possibility of speaking the language in the natural setting. It is a shame that the pub owners don’t see the positive side of having willing Irish speakers. I’m sure if the bar had a French speaking member of staff speaking French to a French tourist then that member would not be told to not speak French because English is the business language of the pub. Anyway speaking one’s Irish language is a basic right. Imagine if an English speaking bar man in a Gaeltacht pub was instructed not to use English! Certainly if I spoke to a bar man as Gaeilge and he spoke back in Irish I would be very pleased.

There’s more that story than meets the eye.
Management was waiting for an opportunity to get rid of him.
It speaks volumes about his employers. in fact says more about management
than was originally intended.
Manager showed his colours – unfortunately he is in majority – remember our financial collapse
I agree with Dannielplainview

What I loved about learning Irish was that each year I had a different teacher. As they spoke different dialects with very strong accents I was constantly being told to pronounce words differently each year. Some teachers were extremely nasty about not speaking it their way and slagged off pupils for talking like a culchie or a jackenn

I learnt irish in school for 12 years and right now i can hardly speak any of it. Only recently have i tried to take it up because I think every Irishman should be able to speak to eachother through the language. But when you consider how much money is spent on promoting the language through education and TG4 etc. We are getting very poor value for money

I am ashamed as an Irishman I am unable to communicate in my native language. Due to the circumstances of the time I attend an left national school at an early age. My education was brought about by love of reading and getting involved in current issues. I resent your use of the word Zealot as it is my belief that the Irish language was deliberately destroyed by successive government policy of marginalizing the Irish language. Shame on us all for allowing this to happen

Thank you Dave.

síos leis an saghas rud

@ Jason Bourne : were you even “thought” (sic) English?

Serious question – but is this breaking the constitution with Irish being our first national language?

Not sure James Darcy, in my place of employment there are people from all over the world working there, there are signs up everywhere telling everyone ‘English is the spoken language of this company’, disciplinary procedures happen if you’re caught speaking your native tongue.

If you went to Wales , do you hear Welsh spoken that much in pubs or Scottish in Scotland?? Just saying like!! Guaranteed most people that come into the flying enterprise can’t speak Irish anyway !!!

In retail and on the shop floor staff must speak English but the fact that they were speaking our own language ( whether we can speak it or not ) means that they or he shouldn’t have been pulled up on it . The owners are treating this like its a foreign language , which is just so wrong …

If you went to Wales, Scotland or any other foreign country would you complain about staff conversing in their native language???

@Dave O’Mahony

My daughter started school last week. My Irish is extremely poor and was looking forward to the journey of working with her so that I could improve my own proficiency.

Enter the snobby Irish educational system.

To my shock, I discovered her junior infants book is completely in Irish! No english translations. No phonetic conversion to help us on our way. Nope. Just snobby Irish, and you must learn it their way or the highway!

I can speak two foreign languages. Self thought I might add. All adult learning books tend to have:

1. the target language (the new one you are trying to learn)
2. a translation in your own language (so your brain can relate it to something it already knows)
3. a phonetic spelling of the new word and/or phrase (so anyone can take a stab at speaking it, as some learn better that way)

But no, not Irish. Unless you’re at school teacher level, forget about
it! It’s become a language for snobs and zealots. Such a pity really as most Irish people have a yearning to learn it.

No it isint. The constitutional guarantee only applies to public bodies and your interaction with the state and its organs, nor do the language acts as they again only apply to the public bodies. English only policies are legal and were upheld recently in the equality court.

The journal did a piece on it where polish workers in McDonalds sued because they had to speak English. No case to answer no discrimination and thus policy was upheld. If you give good reasons you can mandate a business language policy within an organisation.

But if the customers can’t understand you why use the language? You are no good to the employer !

As a German who is learning Irish, I ask you: Would I be a zealot, if I expect people to learn German in my country? Probably not, because German is our national language. Same should apply to Irish. It is the FIRST official language according to the constitution.

I agree with you that especially at the time of the Free State the Irish language was taught by religious fanatics who created a mess instead of helping to reintroduce Irish. On the other hand many people in Ireland seem to forget that it’s English who is the foreign language.

Brent, did you mean to write self-taught? Reading and speaking a language without translations is probably one of the most efficient methods of learning.

Yes. Thinking faster than i type here. Self-taught.

The point i’m trying to make is that there are different modes of learning. More ways, and often better ways than the rigid one way of the Irish Educational system.

I have only encountered a handful of people that have learned well without translations. If you are in the environment such as a new country, yes, that way is better. If some one can pick up a cup and tell you the word in the new language, your brain can associate the image of the cup, to hearing the new word, to english version already stored in your brain. It’s a good method of learning. However, this method is not really practical in a classroom setting. Or for sending kids home to parents to help when the parents dont know themselves!

If you are learning a language, almost entirely, from a book, you need translations and pronunciations to make up for the lack of a “real environment”. Irish, in the main, is learned from a book. A teacher may run through the pronunciation in class, but what happens when the child comes home? “Daddy, what does that say?” “Sorry, do not know” Or “Daddy, how do I pronounce that word?”…..

Longshanks would be proud . Irishman with connection to the country and ancestral history of his birthplace and habitat gets chastised by man with Irish accent with ancestral connection to an invading imperial force . Up the pale . They know where them from around those parts.

Name any other country where you get berated for speaking your national language and turn down 13 billion euro in one week. The Republic of Serfdom. Great place for mice. Aww insulted. Truth hurts.

Interestingly, my daughter did French and German all through school and pursued both at university – Joint Honours, with Distinction in Spoken French.

Whilst travelling in South America she attended Spanish lessons and, although only lasting a few months, she was competent enough to speak and understand it more than adequately.

She seems to be a natural linguist but . . .

She says she prefers the grammar-based approach to mastering any new language.

Language Nazi.

Some students are brilliant at Irish, of course the all Irish schools are a great help. It certainly is an inditement on the system that the mainstream students, at least very many of them , are unable co converse after spending from 5 years to about 18 years at it, I believe if they concentrated on just speaking it and later get the grammar correct it would be successful.

In our school the teacher sends home a translation for us ..

Thats brilliant Suzie. A start at least.

I remember the calculus, a bit of Shakespeare and also the effects of glacial erosion. I also remember, in national school (1980s), that we were physically punished for making mistakes in Irish and only in Irish. Punishment for other transgressions was not prima facie physical, we got extra Irish homework! I hated that language for years, and feel cheated out of a part of our birthright. Watching the Nuacht now and not a notion what’s being said.

Brent .. it does help a fair bit .. a few of the parents got together and mentioned it to her .

When you think how much money is spent on teaching English….. all that Shakespeare rubbish … etc .. and the amounts spent on the English language service of RTE …. all thst Tubridy, Finnucane, Pat Kenny stuff …. what a waste of money. I say let’s spend more better on our own language and culture. We can get English language TV from England perhaps

The man in question was interviewed on radio today. I believe he was using it only with those who understood it and could, or wished to, converse with him in it. One assumes he used English with those who spoke to him in that language.

Excellent comment . Imagine going to a evening course to learn french and the teacher said.

1. Most of the course will be dealing with french poetry and prose.
2. from next week , i will be speaking to you in french
3. as you will see, your textbook is in French
4. if we get some time, we will speak some french but most of our time will be taking up with grammar

I believe the teaching of irish should be privatized , with a basic fee and a bonus fee for each fluent student. For sure, they would not be teaching Irish as it is now been taught

Hey, danielplainview, you could make it relevant by speaking it outside school. Like in pubs.
Unless they are racist and ban you from speaking your own language in your own country. Nobody is that stupid or bigoted these these of course. Right, The Flying Enterprise? I mean that would be nuts. A pub where people are go to talk, like visitors to Cork from other countries who won’t be allowed to speak anything except English.
Mad.
The No Foreigners or Natives Pub
Dheara, deireann dul isteach ann, le uisce amháin a cheannach is Gaeilge amháin a labhairt. iad ag iarraidh Gaeilge a choinneáil amach? Tóg isteach í. Go láidir le bród.

Immersion is great.
Try it.
Tum isteach.
Fiú sa phub.

Sehr Heehrter Hismet – but that’s the problem. The only place Irish is ‘first’ is in the constitution. In real life, even historically, English is (literally) our mother tongue. Mit freundlichen grussen, ….

The Padraics and Daves are the ones who ruin it.
Most attempts to speak Irish by non-natives is met with derision by the over possessive native speakers.
Probably something to do with the ludicrous amount of gaelgóirí jobs invented by successive governments to buy votes. The translation of EU documentation being a prime example

The whole point here is that English is the spoken language in this place of work, I say fair play to the manager. Sounds like a bit of a gob shite to me , he had to be told the second day. It’s not fair on other staff that don’t speak the lingo, as anything could be said . It’s quiet Rude.

If it helps, Brent, focloir.ie has pronunciations as well as an English to Irish searchbox. And Potafocal.com is a good website for learners.

Irish is not used outside the classroom, just like Latin. If you want a language to live it has to be spoken by a large number of people, emigration has ensured that it will only be used in the Dail or on roadsigns. It was a waste of school time grappling with it for years.

I have learnt more Irish off the duo lingo app then I did in 12 years at school.

I had taught that 2 that we can speak English or Irish as they are the official language of the country

Go learn it now then and stop being a victim! Man up Mary!

Of course. Unless one is learning through immersion there must always be some glossary with translations and a basic pronunciation guide. Certainly at infant level. Most people cannot send kids to Irish medium schools.Therefore they are learning a target language. As in French , German etc. But not , alas , in Irish. Hence the grind schools….

It is quiet rude Alan Williams? Is English your first language?

Read the article before you comment

Well said Hismet

Indeed, I learnt French for 5 years but I have forgotten it due to lack of use. Who do I blame? No one but myself. Use it or lose it.. Take responsibility for your own laziness.

I’m curious Fergal McDonagh, how are Padraic & I “the ones who ruin it”? I’ve re-read all the posts from both of us (a few times now) & the only things we’re ruining is people’s illusions that their lack of effort is automatically someone else’s fault.

The bottom line of what we both said was that the responsibility of speaking the Irish language outside of school lies with people, not the school. Neither of us said a bad word about the Irish language, more about the laziness of people who need to blame others for their own shortcomings. I personally lament my own inability to speak Irish as fluently as I did when I was 12, but I am the only person to blame for that. When entering secondary school, my focus shifted to learning new subjects (e.g. French & science) from the ground up. Irish took a back seat, as I thought I my level of fluency wouldn’t decrease so it wouldn’t need as much attention. By the time the Leaving cert came around, I had to drop down from Higher level because I hadn’t been putting in the work.

Incidentally, my fluency in French has dropped dramatically since I did the leaving (I used to be quite good) so now it’s on par with my level of Irish. I rarely have need for either language so I rarely practice. Obviously it would be fantastic if every Irish person were bilingual, but the reality is that we’re not. My point (and I think Padraic’s point as well) is that anyone who wants to be able to re-learn Irish needs to get off their backside and do it, instead of just moaning about it.

Go díreach.
Is bheadh siad iomlán as bealach.
Ná glac le ciníochas aon áit.

Míle maith agat, Juan.
Ayuda mucho ♥ é sin a chloisteáil.

What?

@ Phil Polish, French and Chinese are native languages of other countries, not Ireland, where this has happened. Irish is the native language of Ireland.

It’s bemusing that you had to explain that to him Alan.

Maybe you want to have a look at Deborah’s comment…

Phil is right to ask the question because it’s covering deeper matters: is a company expected to tell us how to speak now? why would people feel paranoid only by hearing a different language? what’s that need for homogeneous people wearing the same thing, saying the same thing, feeling the same thing, etc.?

“Polish, French and Chinese are native languages of other countries, not Ireland, where this has happened. Irish is the native language of Ireland.”

Yes, Alan, I am aware of that. But it doesn’t address the reason given by the bar, they state that it is not about the Irish Language, but about communication with customers who were uncomfortable with others speaking in a language they couldn’t understand – which woudl also presumably be the case with Polish, French and Chinese.

“It’s bemusing that you had to explain that to him Alan.”

It is unsurprising you didn’t understand why I was asking.

You’re in for it now Piotrek.

Prouesse f, “the perpetually offended”, has just joined the conversation.

It has everything to do with the language and exceptionalism and racism and paranoia that is wrong and dangerous. Ní haon ionadh gur vótáil daoine ► Brimeacht má tá siad chomh xenophobic sin. Monolingualism can be cured. Start teaching British history right including the crimes of Empire and the exceptionalism may crumble.

Jesus Christ (-_-)

Beachmaster.. anyone who dared voice opposition was called a “shinner” and told to move on from the past.

Ah, the comments I was responding to were deleted. Well done Journal for deleting juvenile drivel

What about other Europeans speaking their languages while working in Ireland, always happens and nothing ever done !

Cork people did not get to dine with her as did her old enemy Martin McGuinness; then again, she pays him and SF well in her own lovely shillings! Cork people are naturally generous and welcoming- and the Queen did not have to pay them for their kindness,

The Flying Enterprise is a despicable establishment, my sister worked there for a few months and was bullied out of the place because the other staff members and managers were utterly nasty to her, It’s a family owned business.

I think boycotting is a futile exercise because people who like to drink in a particular pub will continue to do so in any case, as is their right. It’s also people’s right to hate the Irish language if they wish, whatever one might think of that as a strange attitude towards a major and important part of our National heritage.
As far as “having the sh*te beaten out of him at school”, I had this delightful experience myself on a couple of occasions. Nor for Irish though – it was for English and Maths.
But I am a bit puzzled; Irish is an official language (in fact, constitutionally, it’s still the premier official language) of Ireland. So, are customers in this place permitted to speak in Irish – as is their constitutional right, like it or not? Would a customer be refused service for ordering a pint (for example) in Irish – as is their right?
At the end of the day, it would have been interesting, if not indeed useful, to have this man’s case argued before the Employment Appeals Tribunal, just to have a pint established (sorry, “point”)

I’ve had friends work in the Flying Enterprise over the years and they all got on fine. However as you said it’s a family owned and run business. I’ve worked for a few such businesses over the years and I’m glad I don’t any more. Family run business are weird to work for as you have to deal with all the family politics on top of all the work politics. As a staff member you always be an “outsider” to the family and they’ll never fully trust you.

Order you tipple in Irish just to get a message across.

I would have thought that everyone in the Flying Enterprise was equipped with universal translators.

Cliste.
Aistear na Réalt abú.

No, because he’s a gowl.

It’s not really like that at all as the majority of the population can’t understand the slightest bit of Irish (unfortunately). Put yourself in the position of a new member of staff whom may be from abroad. They come in hear 2 other members of staff speaking Irish and is not able to integrate by joining in the conversation. It could lead also lead to paranoia (are they talking about me etc. ) It’s a sensible policy to insist that English is the only language used in the place of work. I wish it was different and more people spoke Irish but that’s not happening any time soon.

Correction he requested staff speak in the native tongue of Ireland i.e English.

Irish language has not been native in the majority of this country in hundreds of years.

The only mention of it is a constitutional protection that has very limited legal affect and is mostly confined to the justice system and converting massive amounts of documents to Irish.

From the states point of view “Irish” is a native language in a “constitutional sense” however to a private business holder they can do what ever the hell they want and so should it be.

Liberty over state interventionism I say. If he doesn’t like it (which he clearly doesn’t) he can leave his job ( which he clearly did) and he can work in a bar that facilitates a language spoken by less people than polish nationals.

dar.iam: as a member of staff (different establishment) who is from abroad I would like it very much if workforce at my place used Irish. At the end, it is the original language of this country, and it would help me when my little one reaches the age of doing Irish at school.

It isn’t the original language either. There were people in Ireland for about 6500 years before the johnny-come-lately Celts got here.

Of course there were languages before Irish, but I think we all got the point I was making. Maybe all population of Europe used to speak some sort of proto-Bask, but that’s a question for prehistory.

The point of people saying that it is the “original language” is that it has some sort of special place. But I don’t buy that. It wasn’t handed down to the nation on Croagh Patrick on tablets of stone. It’s just that it was part of the furniture for a while. If people want to speak it, they’re welcome to go for it, but they’re not going to tell me that it’s somehow my language or that I’m a traitor for wanting nothing to do with it. That is BS.

Don’t excuse the paranoia. Xenophobia is unhealthy. Racism is plain wrong.
Ní bheidh Gaeilge aon áit má tá cosc uirthi.
Seo ciníochas.
Glaoigh amach é.

David unlike France where everyone speaks the language, Irish is only spoken in school.
The fanatics that tried to force it down kids throats and a government whose policy was to
fail candidate doing their Leaving Cert unless they passed Irish made sure it was hated by
most kids. For me it was a waste of 12 years, never spoke a word of it. Would have been better
to have studied French or German.

@John Moylan:
With all due respect to Proinsias Ó Foghlú, I have never come across “bodalán” until now, and I of course looked it up:
<>
Maybe it’s Donegal Irish.
An approximate translation might be: “Good man, Cormac, you were right and the owner was a big ungainly person (or, indeed, sea slug)”
I myself would have written “bodach ab ea an únaér” , being more familiar with “bodach” which means “an ignoramus” and preferring the conventional Irish language formation which places the description before the subject.
Hope this helps

Oops, missed link in last comment:
http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/bodalach

Bodalán = arsehole.

Dé chúis? Nach bhfuil cead againn Gaeilge a úsáid gan aistrúcháin a chur ar fáil duit?

@Proinsias
Míle bhuiochais!

An-deas a fheiceáil go bhfuil daoine ag foghlaim teanga úsáideach nár mhúin siad dúinn ar scoil anseo. Anois, ar aghaidh linn go dtí an pub leis na focail nua seo a chleachtadh.

Yes translate

Yep. Ní chuireann siad aistriúcháin ar an mBéarla ann dúinn.

Go raibh math agat, Tuskar, bhí mé ag lorg an focal sin tar éis an méid atá scríobhta anseo ….

Iontach! Sár-fhocal!! Ceann eile go bhfuil gean ar leith agam dó: “magairle” (boll*x).

*of

Of.*

I agree thomas it’s the truth that a lot of people don’t want to hear

I had this experience myself, but not for Irish which I was fairly good at – it was for English and Maths. Pupils were regularly whacked for getting sums wrong for instance.

Th Constitution says otherwise, like it or not.

In the real world, English is by far the most common spoken language in this country, it may not be in a constitutional sense however in reality it is, this tread is in English anyone who disagrees with this fact does not live in the real world.

That must be parody, right?

Defo Sarah, just stating the plain facts. I think Irish is a beautiful, unique language , but I’m not into this whole deluding ourselves thing that it’s our first language or that anyone other than a small percentage of the population can actually speak it with any degree of proficiency. It’s a farce that distracts from the real problem; how the language is taught and promoted.