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“REALLY? I’M AMAZED. We used to live straight across the road from the church… And we would have seen a massive fall-off in churchgoers.
I’m a good Christian myself… But I’m not a good Catholic.
People in Tipperary seem pretty surprised to hear they live in the most Catholic county in Ireland, during TheJournal.ie‘s visit on a blustery, showery (almost spring-like) Tuesday.
The default reaction: furrowed brows, quizzical looks.
“Hmm… How are they measuring that, exactly?” a woman asks…
The figures, as is happens, come from the most recent Census.
As far as the CSO is concerned, if you’re looking for a Catholic county in Ireland, South Tipp is the place to be: over 91 per cent of residents ticked the ‘RC’ box in the 2011 survey.
North Tipp, for that matter, isn’t too far behind.
In any case, when we were looking for somewhere outside the main urban centres to assess how the same-sex marriage debate is shaping up – the Premier County seemed as good a place as any to start.
Come to think of it, wasn’t Tipperary itself the subject of a pretty historic union around this time last year?
The polls, nationally, have shown a slight narrowing of the Yes side’s lead, since the campaign proper started.
One in last Sunday’s Business Post said 1 in 3 Yes voters have reservations about their intended vote. Voters in Munster are also a little more likely to vote No (support is highest in Dublin and the rest of Leinster).
So… Would that spread be borne out on the streets of Roscrea and Cashel?
A veteran local journalist, before we set out, said he reckoned the vote would be around 65:35 AGAINST in the county.
A local politician, who will be voting ‘no’, said people were more concerned with other issues.
A Yes activist said many hadn’t really engaged properly with the debate yet – and that some weren’t even certain what they were being asked.
‘Yes… Of course, yes’
First stop on TheJournal.ie’s trail is the family home of a Yes Equality activist on the outskirts of Roscrea.
25-year-old Karen Eastwood has been taking the photos of locals happy to affirm their pro-change stance over recent weeks – posting the pictures to the local group’s Facebook page. The subject today: her father, Gary (definitely voting yes, but would prefer not to be interviewed).
Along with her husband-to-be, Stephen, and another local, Damien McKelvey, she’s one of three active campaigners with the Yes umbrella group in Roscrea.
They’re getting plenty of support, Karen says. Shops and businesses are happy to take their leaflets – and people are even signing-up to help drop them through letterboxes. In terms of face-to-face canvassing, however – they’re pretty much a three-person team.
There’s a lot of people supportive of it but they’re not really getting up and helping. I suppose they don’t want to put themselves out there, or they’ve no experience of canvassing [...] I suppose people maybe don’t want to face the risk of getting abuse at the doors.
He’d be comfortable putting himself out there, sharing his thoughts and experiences. He’s from a big family, seven brothers and sisters – they’d all be well-known too in their own right.
There’s still quite a bit of confusion around what’s being asked – even three weeks out from polling day, says Karen.
“Someone was asking me at the weekend ‘Will the church be forced into performing same-sex marriage forever?’ and I have to explain – no, it’s totally different.
So there’s a lot of uncertainty about different aspects of it.
Lashing rain, firm opinions
Back in the centre of town, however – there’s no sign whatsoever of that uncertainty.
Of the ten people who speak to TheJournal.ie around Castle Street (mostly sheltering from the torrential rain in doorways and lanes) the vast majority – across all age groups – are very firmly in the Yes camp. For that matter, the one person with an opposing view is equally unequivocal.
“I’ll be voting yes,” says local Debbie Reynolds.
“I’d vote yes for the simple reason that I have a child myself and… You just don’t know from one day to the next – kids are growing up, and its their choice really.”
Outside the shopping centre, Margaret Fletcher first says she “can’t see why there’s a big ruckus about it” before giving an enthusiastic argument in favour of a Yes.
People are entitled to be who they want and marry who they want.
The one opposing view comes from a woman in her 60s, with concerns about same-sex couples raising children.
“I think it’s not normal.
In my own mind I think that as children are going up – that they’ll get maybe the wrong perspective on life. Now I could be as far out as a lighthouse – I’m sure that there are many people doing it, but I just don’t agree with it.
Back on the road
Heading further south, it becomes apparent that, whatever about the battle for hearts and minds – the No side have certainly won the race to the lamposts.
There aren’t that many – but, as in Roscrea, the centres of Templemore and Thurles are all dotted with posters from campaign group Mothers and Fathers Matter. (Before we set out, however – a press officer for the Iona Institute-backed group had said they didn’t have any spokespeople available in the county to meet us.)
Down in Cashel, one figure who has been vocal in opposing the change is Fianna Fáil councillor Roger Kennedy – going against his party’s official stance. He’s been making his views known at party meetings, and on local radio.
Over coffee at Mother Hubbards it becomes clear his opposition is based pretty much entirely on the title given to the institution of marriage, which he describes as “the building block society is based on”.
He’s not opposed, however, to further rights being given to same-sex couples.
They have Civil Partnership – and if there is a problem then the rights of Civil Partnership should be upgraded to accommodate them, whether it’s inheritance, financial or whatever, the Civil Partnership should be upgraded.
He also has no problem with the recently-enacted Children and Family Relationships Act – which, for the first time, allows same-sex couples to adopt. ”If they’re going to be suitable parents, that’s not an issue.”
I don’t have any problem with gay people. I work with them and I’ve always known them. I’m not homophobic in any manner of means.
In terms of the wider picture – on polling day, he reckons, the balance in Tipp will be slightly in favour of a ‘No’.
“I am actually amazed at the number of people on both sides of the debate who will say privately, one to one, ‘yes, I’m on the no side’ but will not voice their opinion publicly.”
Outside the diner, in a video chat, the councillor warns that legalising same sex marriage would be akin to drafting Garda Reserves into the police force proper…
Confusion abounds
In Cashel town centre, it appears at first that the pattern of strong ‘yeses’ from Roscrea might be repeated.
A (slightly startled) mother, on her way back from the shops:
“Of course, yes.”
Diane, who runs the NCBI charity shop:
“I know a lot of people who are gay and I think they should have the same rights that I do.”
A young woman, waiting for her friend at the bank:
“I’ll vote yes – I might as well, sure. Sure doesn’t affect me in any way.”
However (and it might be something to do with the fact that we have much more time to canvass the town) a much more diverse selection of opinions soon emerges.
Those contentious No posters, for instance, have kicked off quite a debate…
Sinead, a solicitor and confirmed Yes supporter:
“As if adoption had anything remotely to do with it, I’ve got friends who were raised by mothers on their own.”
An undecided voter:
“They’re upsetting people. It’s on Facebook that they’re annoyed about the posters coming into town.”
The woman at the bank, again:
“They’re ridiculous – aren’t they?”
While most people, it should be noted, are keen to talk – there’s also plenty who clam up once they hear the question.
A well-dressed woman, for instance, simply smiles and puts her finger to her lips – in the universal ‘shush’ position.
A factory worker in his fifties says it’s the first time anyone’s spoken to him about the issue – and predicts a very low turnout.
While butcher Donald Walsh – a keen observer of politics in the town – says it’s just not something customers are talking about…
There are plenty of undecided voters happy to talk too.
A woman in her 50s, visiting town with her husband:
“I haven’t really decided – but you know the question I would have is why gender balance is suddenly out the window in a family situation.”
One of two women in the undecided camp, walking on Main Street:
Myself now, I’ve a nephew that’s in a relationship with another man. But that wouldn’t tell me whether I’d vote yes or no.
John, a sales rep from ‘around 20 miles away’:
Just haven’t my mind made up… Having two same-sex parents – will it lead to confusion down the road?… At the same time, I don’t want to deprive same-sex people of their rights either.
Indeed, even among Yes voters, issues like adoption and custody keep coming up – even though we’re not being asked about them at all in the 22 May vote (the provisions of the Children and Family Bill will still apply, regardless of the result).
“I don’t think that it’s good for children to be brought up in single-sex homes,” Patrick Hourigan, a retired council worker says – before going on to say he thinks there will be “a massive yes” and that he’ll be voting in the affirmative himself.
He speaks movingly about a young relative who recently came out to the family (“we’d have no problem whatsoever with that – absolutely none”) and agrees to a video chat with TheJournal.ie.
As we head back onto the M8, Yes Equality gets in touch to confirm that its posters will be going up around Tipperary at the weekend – and to put forward more spokespeople we might want to talk to (thanks, we’re done for the day).
The political parties, of course, will also be out canvassing and holding information nights in the days and weeks to come. Those No posters will have company on the lamposts, soon enough.
In Tipp – as in the rest of the country, it’s clear that while there are plenty of firm opinions out there – there’s no shortage of uncertainty and misapprehension either.
As seasoned commentators have been telling us for months, the outcome of this vote is far from certain.
The campaign, as far as most of the country’s concerned – is just getting going.
[Note: Please be mindful, none of the people who stopped and spoke to us in the street were professional politicians or campaigners. Bear that in mind if adding to the comments section? Thanks. - DB]
Originally posted 8.30pm Saturday.
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Tipperary is the holiest county, the place is full of fecking potholes
This just goes to show how little the census results on religion actually mean. People who don’t even believe in god claim to be Catholic in this country.
The first part of this article proves how wrong the census can be, on paper we are all Catholics. in reality if you didn’t need a baptismal cert to get into a government run and tax funded school I’d say you could half the figure.
Mass-holes!
Michael Lowry
John Tierney
Noel Coonan
all Tipp men I think – the first two definitely !
I will be producing an international website of towns and counties that vote ‘no’ in the referendum. Gays and their friends will be able to decide where they want to spend their $,£,¥ or € based upon how locals vote. My new website will inform potential tourists who supports gay marriage and who doesn’t!
That is absolutely brilliant Liberty! If people want to vote no, they must understand that their actions have repercussions. I wouldn’t stay in a town that voted ‘no’ to equality! I think you will have a lot of support for your website.
Meanwhile in Kerry the Healy Raes are still wondering after all these years what two pallets of Gondola Food are doing down the back of the warehouse after the unexpected piece of insider information from Kerry County Council led to them ordering it from a shady Chinese business man on the internet ..
Some say the order was placed from a computer in Dail Eireann – but like the person who closed down Galway City for Enda’s visit with a bit of grass-cutting no evidence exists of its existence …
conversely (in the interests of balance not ignorance ) I will be providing the exact same information to heterosexual couples who wish to visit Ireland in a less gay place than they are currently in ….
may the best sexual preference get richest fastest !
ON a separate issue altogether – if it is passed will people be allowed to say they live “straight” across across the road or will they have to now live Equally across the road from the church ..
Just askin’ like ….
If you live across the road from the church do you get a special dispensation for having across to bear – looking at the church and having the bells ringing in your ears ..
Anglers want to know where the fishing is good, walkers want to know where the good treks are, gays want to know where they are welcome. Why would anyone have a problem with that? It would be disingenuous to say to gays you are not equal, but we want your $! Is your area gonna be pink on the map or blank – with the advice: ‘people in this area think you are not equal to the heterosexual population’. Call a spade, a spade!
Great idea lib I would certainly like to know when I go on a staycation with the family that they are surrounded by people that believe in equal rights. But some will not get the concept and ridicule you for it. Vote yes if you want to equal rights for all.
Fair point Lib ..
But just because a town votes against a change in marriage doesn’t necessarily mean that they are anti-gay – it might just mean they hate Enda ..but enough of this politics talk ..here’s a laugh for ya …
That is way too funny, Hermes!
I know – it”s my favourite youtube moment ..nearly died when I saw it …
Jake–God is so smart that he knows he doesn’t exist.
It’s early to be out confirming the national consensus.
As the debate progresses it becomes clear that the YES side, relies exclusively on emotion. That is why the YES side is so strong with young persons. You just don’t hear the YES campaigners laying out the huge improvement in gay peoples lives, or society as a whole, where marriage is redefined. That’s because there is no evidence. Instead we have Una and Colm with me, me, me, me and me. And when ME isn’t listened to, the angry underbelly jumps our.
If you are young, and intent on voting yes, pause and consider the evidence. We often are puzzled by the way many populations of the twentieth century foolishly followed charismatic leaders, and are confident we would have acted differently. Well now here is our opportunity. All media, government, police, unions, celebrities, county councils, charities, etc.; are singing from the same script. Nature stands alone in opposition, it’s only potential ally, you and your personal vote. Is nature a fool?
Have a read below. Eyes wide open!
The article below is from a real person, in a real environment where marriage is redefined. It doesn’t paint a pretty picture.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/gay-activists-claim-redefining-marriage-wont-hurt-anyone-but-thats-a-lie.-j
Ní mór don fhachtas “Tá”a bheith níos eagraithe is cosúil. Tuige nach bhfuil níos mó postaerí suas sna bailte beaga? An bhfuil duine gairmiúil i gceannas ar an bhfeachtas? Cupla seachtain suimiúil in ann dúinn!
Thats quite interesting. But im more concerned it how family law will change in order to be brought in line with the constitutional change.
Do you realize that by doing that what you aim at doing (provided you succeed, but that depends on the intelligence of your public) is boycotting also all the “gays and their friends” who live in those counties…? There’s nothing liberal in this, on the contrary.
Era look Paddy, we just don’t know. It will run its course. But on the me-me-me front, you claim you should have the right to marry who you want and that such a right should not be aforded to Ian Phillip or any other lgbt people. Did ya ever see the seagulls in Searching For Nemo? “Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine!” You and your Catholic Comment cohorts and your Iona buddies sound a bit like that. But when black people demanded equal rights, they were told not to be so pushy abd selfish. Protestants in the North used the same poisonous words trying to silence Catholics. We’ve heard that me-me-me guff from reactionaries before. It doesn’t wash. But who knows, I might walk down my street on 23rd May equal, for the first time in my life, to my neighbours. It would be nice. But then again it might not happen. I will continue to be a voice for equality no matter what happens.
@Paddy
It is emotional for gay people, you are discussing our lives.
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
I understand that religious orders convinced you into thinking that marriage is a natural thing. In fact, that IS going with the emotions. But pause for a moment, you are still in time, it’s never to late to get rid of all your conditioning and think with your head, getting rid of your self-imposed glasses and looking at what nature REALLY is, just with your brain. Ready? Here you go:
Marriage doesn’t exist in nature, it’s a cultural institution between human beings, not a natural thing.
(and, if you wandering, so just that you know… homosexuality does exist in nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals)
I think this referendum it’s about not letting the ignorance and catechism about “nature” of someone lead the life of the others… it’s a “script”, as you call it, that it’s time everyone sings. And you are still in time to join, it will do good to you and everyone around you.
Let me know when it’s up, maybe it will give me even more of a reason to leave where I am as I hate it here.
I wonder if that is the reason they keep voting for Michael Lowry
In every referendum I’ve voted in I’ve understood/appreciated both sides of the argument before deciding.
Thus far in this campaign the No side don’t seem to have made any logical argument for me. The “think of the children” line is just wrong. Surely the main thing is a stable upbringing for children regardless of the gender of the parents?
This referendum is to decide whether to extend the right to marriage to everybody.
Other than within the overheated imagination of the country’s ten or so Ionanists who totally dominate the anti-equality side of this debate, it’s got nothing to do with children and frankly, it’s grossly dishonest of them to claim it does.
Was down in Tipp last weekend and drove through several towns with not a single a Yes poster, and plenty of No posters. The Yes campaign seems to have forgotten people exist outside the main urban areas.
Although it’s stupid there aren’t many signs, hopefully people down the country country will still vote yes and don’t need a few signs to make them vote for equal rights.
To be fair it’s only relatively recently any yes posters even went up in and around Dublin. The yes campaign were very slow to start putting up posters in comparison to the no side.
Sur there’s no gays in Tipperary lad and besides its the holiest county in feicin Ireland!!
What’s the chances of a mohaMad avatar getting licence to drivel on any other social media site.
The arse has feel out of the Irish and they’re trying to shore it up in the most peculiar way.
I haven’t seen a yes poster in Dublin.
Try Cherrywood, the FF yes posters are up, very bland I must admit..
I just think the No voters are targeting rural areas basically pigeon holing people. I live in a rural village there is no posters at all and I like it that way. I have open minded inclusive neighbours. Posters will not sway people however the No posters have insulted many people. EVERY Irish citizens vote matters. What amazes me is the gay community its of Ireland contribute to our society pay taxes etc and yet a foreign national can come to Ireland get married and have more legal rights in their heterosexual relationship. The referendum is not about children it is about equality that is why I am voting YES
Or maybe they know they are smart enough not to be swayed by a poster
I think in terms of yes campaign there so confident in the yes next time your on the street look out for #fianna fail posters there f# all money put in to it compared to the rest with pictures and fancy text.
To be fair again, the yes campaign was still raising money for postering the country while the no posters were going up (by virtue of their mysterious funding ;-) ). Yes campaign posters solely funded by the money raised publicly in front of us all.
Just you wait. I have open minded inclusive neighbours too and live in tiny village with about 600 on voting register. No posters went up last night some time after 10.30pm, and in neighbouring villages too. Nobody happy to see them.
Well I can tell you no posters will be struck down in my village. They are insulting and offensive to all.
Michelle the foreign national point is interesting, and one way to view the debate
I don’t get the point about foreign nationals. If someone is working in Ireland, aren’t they entitled to marry the same as anyone else, regardless of whether their spouse is Irish or not?
Tipp woman, in my sixties, went to school in Cashel, I’m fervently hoping that the people of Tipperary and every other county will give a resounding ‘Yes’ in this referendum, so that I can finally feel that the country that I love has finally thrown off the shackles. Yes to Equality.
Fair fecks to you Babs
Unless you’re into bondage Barbs!!!!
Roll on the revolution.
Me too Barbara!
I really hope the “yes” vote comes through. Strange how when you ask a “no” voter why they’re voting no if it has no effect in their lives or others they don’t have an answer…..
Jebus
Yes, I have noticed the YES faction like to ask for reasons why people vote NO, very funny that, since they then say you don’t have any evidence and NO right to disagree with their monopoly on information, only they can be right, so why do they bother asking ?
Because we are waiting for a credible answer!
Because “God thinks it’s wrong” isn’t an actual reason because it’s civil marriage not in a Church.
And the whole “children deserve a mother and a father” argument is made completely invalid by all the great single parents all around the country. But when you tell them that they say “but you can’t deliberately take one of their parents away from them” so they’re basically picking and choosing what situations their arguments make sense in…….
It’s coming #Androgyny
Great answer to a stupid question Dave.
Haha I know jebus that’s the best part of it they have no excuse to hide behind other then homaphobia
Gerard
Straight up question: why are you voting ‘no’? Is it because your God told you or is it because you don’t think Gay people are equal to you?
Cue the protecting the children excuse in 3…2….1
My new website will inform potential tourists which towns voted for equality and which voted against. People will be able to plan their holidays on the basis of who respects their lifestyle and who would see gay people as less than straights. My website will be in all languages and I will look for Bord Fáilte support!
That’s active discrimination Liberte ..it is also a threat …
I am still voting Yes by the way – but that kind of post does your side no favours – it is like the Trichet Letter in spirit …
I understand it is an emotive subject – but you should never use a threat to win a logical argument – and logic is very much on your side on this one !
Just a friendly word !
Hermes, we ain’t friends!
This is a bus-op! Gonna make mullah from people’s ignorance! Are you anti-capitalist?
I’m Anti everything in the absence of truth Lib ..
I am merely appealing to your intelligence not your spite !
Still voting yes !
Missed the humour there lib . ..it’s late !
Where do you hear spite in my commentary? This is purely a business opportunity in guiding tourist $ to areas that respect the tourist! Tourists don’t like to sit at the back of the bus!
it’s cool lib. – just picked up the shovel the wrong way around again ..
Hey, you’re cool Hermes! You sound like a real gent! Soz ’bout the we ain’t friends comment. Just used to sleezebåll ärsehølls on this site when it comes to equality!
Bet you can hardly wait! #buggeryisanolympicsport
What!? How do you make that out? Are you also wearing a billboard warning of the apocalypse?
Lib, I honestly can’t tell if you are joking or not with your website idea. At this stage, I really hope you’re joking. Good joke, well done!
Dave Martin
Therein lies the problem, you presume to be the arbiter of credible answers, very Orwellian of you, freedom of expression is the best badge of creditability.
George Hogan
Straight up answer, because I refuse to support in any way a government that has no creditability, nor will I give any credence or succour to those that wish to destroy our society.
I will never support the use of minority issues to subvert the right to self determination of any nation.
I’m referring to civil unrest and wars all over the world, where the established order uses the funding and support of minorities to destabilise others society’s, even as in Russia, using LGBT to try divide others society’s.
Thank you, Gerard!
Living in Cashel, I’ve taken no notice of any posters, yes or no. I never do, they’re an eyesore! Among peers, there’s no big debate. Who am I to decide another persons fate? The same applies to any aspect of life. Who are we to judge anyone? Of course it’s a yes!!
Oh thank christ I thought it was Clare
To be honest I’m surprised too!! I thought it was Kerry
Clare’s grand as far as the Catholicism is concerned. I was thinking it would be Mayo or Kerry.
When I first read the headline I thought Donegal.
Daily or Burn ?
Clare like …
Bhuel is é Muigh Eo an chontae is spioradálta – Cnoc Mhuire, Cruach Phádraic, Baile an Tobair , An tAth Payton srl.
What????
Ní spioradálta é ach, is é an contae níos Caitliceach Rómhánach in Éirinn.
@Gaeltán, bhí tu ag labhairt faoi an Co. Mhaigh Eo agus an spioradálta – gabh mo leithsceal!
@george
Faidhb ar bith. Ní raibh ann ach píosa spraoi. Sonas is Síochán ort:)
Go raibh maith agat, a Ghealtán!
I’d love to know where the Ionanists are getting all that money to plaster the country with those expensive posters.
Probably from the same ones who support the yes campaign as well???
No. Negative Michael. The Political Parties that’re supporting the Marriage Equality Referendum are supplying some under their own banners (Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Labour, Shinners, AAA among others).
To my knowledge all the main political parties’re supporting it.
Renua’re a bit dodge/iffy on it; Ms.Creighton’s saying yes mind so I’ll take my lead from there from her on that one; they party aren’t in a position financially however to put up Yes Posters nationwide unlike some/many of the other parties; certainly not of the quantity expected and being done by the others and all the more so since they’re going at it hammer & tongs here in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency to get their first candidate elected in the bye-election).
Only fringe “partys” like Identity Ireland aren’t taking a stance either way and the justification for that is/was they don’t want to appear exclusionary as their party membership is only 100 so far; again there’s the Carlow-Kilkenny issue in the mix here with their candidate saying this is the position they’re taking in an interview on local radio. Ironically or perhaps hypocritically or indeed both, the “party” are described as an Irish UKIP (along with groups like Anti-Islam Ireland, Pegida Ireland, Celtic Peoples “Party” of Ireland, National Independence Party of Ireland, Irish Voice, ICP/Immigration Control Platform etc.). Saying you’re not being exclusionary while practicing same….?
The issue with both referenda is there’s no votes to be won; neither referendum is going to topple the Govt., force them into a snap/early General Election (despite this group of loonies thinking otherwise > https://www.facebook.com/pages/If-the-Government-wants-a-Yes-we-have-to-vote-No/136372569749726?fref=ts).
The other issue is timing. We’ve a National Election in the Spring of 2016; party funds have to be conserved for this purpose.
As someone who’s contributed to the Yes Equality crowdfunding campaign which is a-political (I.e. “We” don’t believe in currying favour with any particular political party or politician), the generosity & support of the Yes voting public.
€100k+ has been raised thus far; this doesn’t actually spread that far but it is a phenomenal amount to have been raised.
There are posters going up but it will take time; there’s logistics to deal with, issues regarding delivery of same.
There are others such as my local (students) union who’ve put up some of their own posters too. Such pro-activity is to be encouraged.
These polls are a load of crap
They appeal to the simple voter who doesn’t want to be on the loosing side … appeals to their frightened “safety in numbers ” thinking ..
Very good point. Groupthink is hugely prevalent in this country. .
“They have Civil Partnership – and if there is a problem then the rights of Civil Partnership should be upgraded to accommodate them” …this is one of the reasons I’ll be voting Yes, if we can break down the barriers of us and them all the better.
It’s a curious angle to take, it being the ‘most Catholic’ county and how it will vote on what’s a civil matter. They’re really nothing to do with one another… Interesting reading nonetheless.
They have EVERYTHING to do with each other.
Definitely voting No. Everyone is on about equality. Two men cannot make a baby, two women cannot make a baby. Only a man & a woman can create a baby. Ok you have if ,donors, all these other ways, but you still need male & female. So it is not equal.
And lots of married men and women can’t or choose not to have children. I think you’ve kind of missed the point.
Other men and women are born with defects too, what’s your point ?
This voting has nothing to do about creating babies !!! What is wrong with the no people. This is about marriage. Not making babies. Nearly 160 laws in the areas of finance, taxation, etc are not recognised under the law in Ireland for same-sex couples. That is a fact. The marriage situation will create more equal rights for them to live their lives like anyone else. Therefore, it is about being equal in relation to alot of laws that are not recognised for same-sex couples in this country.
Marriage has nothing to do with babies. Ask single parents.
It’s not a referendum on allowing same sex couples to have children. Many of them already have children and they are doing FINE, thank you very much.
This is a referendum on civil marriage, nothing else. The issue of children is for another time (the past, actually, since it’s already been sorted).
Also, i’m in a heterosexual relationship. We’re not planning on having children, but if it turns out that we physically can’t, does that make us “not equal” too?
If you say that it doesn’t – perhaps you might need to examine your attitude to gay people.
@micheal, infertile couples, elderly couples, couples who choose not to have kids and gay couples are technically in the same category, and you’re saying they shouldnt be allowed marry? Hmm..
Michael, my husband and I are celebrating our 10th wedding anniversary this weekend. We have not had any children, and are now in our mid to late 40s, so are resigned to remaining a happy family of two. Are you trying to tell me that our marriage is inferior to any other marriage which has produced children? Or should we be seeking to have our marriage annulled?
Replace the word “gay” with the word “infertile” in the following sentence and ask yourself if it sounds offensive…. Gay people should not be allowed to marry as two gay people cannot make a baby.
If a hetrosexual couple cannot have children that does not make them gay, thats ridiculous to say they are the same.
That’s not what I was implying David, I’m pretty sure my husband and I are straight! What I meant was, if you apply the argument if “only people who can have children should be legally allowed to get married”, that implies that infertile people like us should not be married, which I think is offensive.
The potential for hetrosexual couples to have children is much greater than a gay couple.
Concieve.
You shouldn’t be using a phone while at the pump.
Michael, using a phone at the pump makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. It is an old wives tale that they could start a fire.
When i was young i had a mammy and a daddy i never found anything wrong with it,was never in any other situation but to hear young people who have same sex parents speak about it, it certainly seems to work quite well in some cases
I don’t think we should always bring up religion in debates I find it really annoying. If yr Catholic/ Protestant / atheist it is about what you think is right…
I just decided to vote no in both referendums. I don’t like the fact that I feel like I have to vote no. But there has been no proper discussion….only crazy evangelical no zealots, tear jerker coming out stories and every politician, sports ‘star’ and celebrity yes agendas….claiming a gay sibling, brother, son or daughter…..politicians also coming out as gay…..I am very concerned…..by the lack of factual debate…..there are bigger issues than Leo Varadkar coming out as gay…..high unemployment, increasing poverty, immigration, mortgage issues, lack of control over banking and NAMA……I will happily pay for my water….sorry……to any gay people….I am not a religious zealot….but this is not a band wagon I feel happy to support, especially as I feel that both the matter of abortion referendum has not been resolved, which actually affects about 4,000 women in this country. I note it’s all about gay men…..where are all the lesbians in this discussion.
So you’re punishing gays for your unrelated grievances
Do you even follow the news??? Yes there have been a load of hysterical articles about the SSM, but there have also been many well balanced articles, here and elsewhere. There was a very well presented and balanced debate on the late late show last night. Also, there have been several articles here and in the irishtimes specifically addressing relationships between two women. So just because you couldn’t be arsed keeping abreast of current affairs you feel it is justifiable to give a knee jerk no vote? That is, quite frankly, the shittiest reason I have yet to hear for voting no.
No I am voting no for the lack of a proper debate
YOU MAKE AN EXCELLENT POINT MAIRE -There is no intelligent debate – just populist showing off from a eunuch government who pretended to be both human and men when they begged us for our votes …
If you feel you need to use your vote as a protest then you are perfectly entitled to – you could of course just restrict it to the Presidential vote because it is riddled with discrimination , ignorance of modern science and hypocritical on behalf of the current government ..
I have based my voting yes on the simple fact there are citizens ion this State who feel that they are discriminated in society to the point where they have to take to the streets -
I haven’t seen hordes of young people marching because the president has to 40 – that’s when the suspicious turns on for e – particularly after all the people who took to the streets for a water referendum and were promised there was no need –
Inconsistency in interigation means guilty of criminal activity in my book !
The news or ryan turbridy isn’t where I go to decide to vote! Do you? Cause if you do then you are terribly naive.
There has been no proper articles discussing the wording of the change to the constitution or the legal ramifications…..for the abortion referendum it was debated and ruminated over in full detail…..this has been knee and tear jerking sensationalism…….the stroke being pulled is that a no vote means you are anti gay……unlike the abortion referendum…..where the vote boiled down to two camps, where a yes vote meant your were anti baby….I voted no in the abortion, even though I am pro abortion in a situation where a foetus is not viable….why torture a woman even more
@maireuiriain, you seem to be voting No for no good reason so you may as well vote Yes??
Ryan Longshanks Tubridy is it ?
Not a chance ! I was told years ago that R.T.E. was strictly C. of I. – and then it all made sense – section 31 and Paisley roaring and shouting pure bigotry etc. etc.
@Don’t feed them.That’s just the latest lie from the No side.If they truly didn’t understand the arguments they would simply either not vote or spoil the vote.It’s up there with ‘a no vote will collapse the government’.Load of manure.If anyone finds themselves in a polling booth and realises they don’t understand the issues voter wants to send a message to government I would urge you to just spoil the vote. That’s the way these things are done without giving acknowledging either side of the debate.
Where do want the debate to be Maire?
Like all modern referendum debates it’s been in the news, on the radio, on T.V. and all over social media.
Do you have a specific place in mind where all debates need to happen in order for them to be ‘proper’ debates?
Do you feel the government should be doing more or less?
I have seen 2 of the major newspapers publish articles giving a completely unbiased run down the ins and outs of use referendum and talk about what the new wording will be. This info is also readily available online and will soon be coming through your door in booklet form.
If you haven’t found what you’re looking for it can only be because you haven’t really looked.
Last night when I went to bed it was a fifty fifty spilt when I posted this commentary. Now it 60 40 and it’s about 8 am. I suggest that a lot of yes voters are kids etc up late in the wee morning hours. Remember many of verbal yes vote are third level students and young people who never vote. You can’t enshrine something in the constitution, the MOST important legal document in the state based on the daft no and the ludicrous yes debate to date. If this test has shown it has shown that there has been absolutely no serious debate and people who vote regularly are very sensible about how they vote. An unconvinced or uncertain voter will vote no. This will be tighter than the abortion referendum.
No you obviously don’t realise the importance of our constitution, and even more so it’s reconfirmed to me when you suggest this to me.
No it’s not….I was voting yes all along….my godfather was gay and died of HIV in the late eighties…..so don’t talk claptrap and make ridiculous comments about my opinions using your ignorant no vote is anti gay stupid argument
Online what sort of twit are you……I don’t think the journal.ie or Google word is a sensible place or the appropriate medium…..I want proper scientific research. I am an academic and I have looked up journal papers on the matter and there is no conclusive evidence on the effects or otherwise of same sex parents, single parenting or female/male parenting…..I want to hear barristers and our legal experts debate…..not happy clappy well educated gay men with good lifestyles or religious Iona zealots who’d have us all saying novenas and praying for the Angela’s. So if there is no proper evidence I can’t change my constitution for a very small minority. Irrespective of the fact that in my personal opinion women are not equal in this country or any country in world…..so don’t you judge me again you don’t know me at all.
I want to hear our legal experts
The numbers changing again….country folk don’t this this sort of Twitter debate and people with kids are busy….sorry I must make a camp for my kids
Download https://www.yesequality.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Lawyers-for-Yes.pdf for detailed legal look at the wording for changing article 41 of constitution.
@Maire Ui Riain
Having a good conversation with yourself there, Maire! What did you decide in the end…to vote yes?
If Iona and co have lots of posters but can’t provide local volunteers that raises obvious questions.
and also the truth behind the power of the media in forcing a population down a route it may not want to or have to go !
Yeats despised journalists !
One thing is certain , Donegal will always say No to State driven referEnda
Donegal’s silly for protest voting then. Especially if it’s going to harm about half a million people who’ll one day would like to get married to the person they love like.
Did you pull those numbers from your whole?
Wtf is love like?
Half a million ?
Half a million is the number of people on anti-depressants in this state – all tuned into R.T..E .
and all is good on R.T.E. with Enda in charge ….
Should people who are on mind-altering substances be considered medically fit to vote – now there’s a philosophical question ..
@Joost Bos.Not too far off on the figures.
Figures put the rate of homosexuality/bisexuality to be between 3% and 20% of the population.Kinsey Institute* puts the figure at about 5% to 6,5% actively bi/gay.
I’ll take 30 years in the future only as a reflection that its about then most kids born today will be getting married themselves.When they are considering marriage conservative figures work out something like this.
CSO puts the population at 6,75 m in 2045.
Given that Ill give the benefit of the doubt to the overall estimate in favour of lower number being gay/bisexual ,Ill use Kinseys higher number of 6,5% which gives you just over 450,000 of the overall population ‘eligible’ for a same sex marriage in 2045.Of course not all will actually want one but at least they will have the choice.
Even today if you were to take an average of the all the given estimates at 11.5% you get from todays population 4.59 million you get over 500,000.I won’t use those as Im being conservative with the figures.
So you don’t seem to be a whole lot off.
*The Kinsey Institute is an institute that has actually been accredited, unlike some others doing the rounds.
My new website will inform potential international travellers who voted for equality and who voted for the status quo. Let the market decide if they agree with your town’s decision. Will your vote increase tourism in your area? Website will be available May, 29th.
If you want equality then you should also advertise it too Heterosexual couples as well – otherwise you are just being a bitch – if I may write so …
and I know you are intelligent enough to know what I mean without getting personally insulted !
I don’t like threats from those who want equality !
Can’t understand why anyone would vote no…but sure this is Ireland we’re talking about
There is now no longer any such thing as North or South Tipp. They all decided to set up the free and equitable County of Tipperary. Vote might surprise as we’ve come ‘a long way….’
Regarding religion and studies of who believes what in Tipp; I’m from there (Carrick-on-Suir) and when I was in secondary school in the late 1980s I was on the the editorial team of our school magazine Voice, which decided to run a survey on religion in both the boys’ CBS and the girls’ Presentation Convent School across the road. In the ensuing mêlée after the local and national media got their hands on it it became clear that a) there was considerable denial of the then religious attitudes of Tipp’s teens and b) the last study of its type carried out ANYWHERE in Ireland had been 17 years previous to our study! So denial and data sparsity prevailed then so it’s no surprise to me that it prevails now…
That’s interesting. What do you mean when you say there was denial of religious attitudes? Are you just saying that people didn’t appreciate that their opinions might have a religious bias? Did you perform a control experiment to see how opinions differed amongst the nonreligious?
I had a decent detailed response sent to you with the Android app and apparently it didn’t send which is feckin frustrating. People kneejerked that we were punching the baby Jesus. We had over 100 people in each of the scoops, ~40 questions with Y,N,Don’t Know answers, test for presented in silence, % for each question for boys and girls presented, almost no interpretation provided.
We didn’t have a non-religious school control group mainly for practical reasons, girls’ school was across the road from out school. There was a (non-religious) Tech which would have taught religion too anyway (I think) and in any case Religion would not have been the main socioeconomic differentiator.
We later learned that the last survey of its kind had been performed 17 years earlier by a nun in Maynooth.
Struggling to understand the red thumbs on anything either of us have said. Show yourselves and elaborate, red thumbers.
In my opinion a ‘yes’ vote would put us on a slippery slope towards a future where everyone is forced to undergo surgery to make them into hermaphrodites in the name of “equality”
Don’t feed them ideas John.
@John
There was talk of that when women got the vote: men and women will become indistinguishable from each other. It never happened. But, it’s good that you are presenting such insightful commentary!
The yes campaign should put up posters saying “vote yes or your gay” that would really mess with the no sides heads!!!
The no campaign receives funding from the religious right in America, so had the funds to buy posters. The yes campaign are raising funds currently, and are at 50k now so posters should go up soon.
People don’t make a vote because of a poster, come on….seriously
It would appear that the presence of over-postering can have the opposite impact! People see the posters as an eyesore and they have managed to alienate 330,000 single-parent families in this country! It would seem the yes posters have produced an unintended result – they are encouraging people to vote YES! Very good! Well done, the no side!
Simple questions ..
Are LGBT couples allowed to adopt at the moment ?
If not will this referendum change that in any way ?
Why all the fuss about this marriage thing – the real referendum is the Presidential Vote piggy-backing on this popular subject …
Do you think Simon Harris or some such other young politician is fit to carry out the Constitutional duties of President ?
Hermes gays are already allowed to adopt. Until recently it was individual adoption but under the recent law the Children and Family Relationships Act gay couples can adopt too. This is already the law and not affected by the referendum. The idea that marriage is about children doesn’t make sense as thrtd are elderly couples married too. The no side see women as baby making machines who must ‘go forth and multiply’.
I share your questions on the presidential age limit.
Thanks Druid – I haven’t actually bothered to see what it is all about -0 a storm in a tea-cup in many ways …
So what is the point then – are we merely changing the wording in the constitution ? and if so why ? Enda doesn’t give a flying about what the Constitution says – if he did the Fiscal Treaty wouldn’t have even reached our shores after how the Troika treated us ….
I’ voting Yes anyway7 my children are too young for me to know their sexuality so it seems fair that they wouldn’t feel austracised by a future society -
I do know one thing though and this is a fact – there is no conceivable way that a 21 year old is fit to be President ! and besides if we say what age they can qualify then in the interests of equality we must also vote on the age they disqualify ….
That and the fact that we have people in Ireland who are under the Social Protection if the State yet not consider fiscal adults until the age of 25 – makes a mockery of Enda and the Economic Management Council …
B.T..W. Druid – Diarmuid is an anagram of …… “I am Druid !” – Thought you might like to know that with the Draoicht rising and all that !
I’m also voting yes on the Presidential Age referendum.
I can’t see myself voting for a 21 year old – BUT I don’t thing people should be disbarred from running by law on the basis of age.
I can see myself voting for a 25 year old, or a 29 year old or a 32 year old etc – depending on the candidate.
I think if someone, regardless of age, wants to be president and is willing to put themselves forward and campaign, they should be allowed a shot at it. You still won’t have to vote for them!
Hermes civil partnerships unlike marriage are not in the constitution so as it stands. a future government could abolish them. By putting it in the constitution they can’t do do without a referendum. Secondly, civil partners don’t have as much access to hardship payments if the house is damaged eg floods. Also unlike married couples, civil partners have to pay charges for joint tenancies. Didn’t know it was an anagram.
Thanks druid I should know these things and now that we have shared information I do ..
I appreciate it !
I didn’t know it was either until a few weeks ago – it knocked me for six and me playing with letters for years !
Definitely voting Yes now ..how is it That this simple message is not out there and how is that the Gay rights lobby haven’t challenged this discrimination in the Courts !
B.T..W – Did you hear that a new “wisdom” is permeating our National Schools – St. Patrick didn’t drive the snakes out of Ireland – they were in fact druids who had snake tattoos on them – did you ever hear such a load of disingenuous Catholic crap in all your life – just shows who the Romans really fear !
Sarah …
If you win with the Yes vote then you are crystalising bigotry and inequality ….
For if passed then we could have two unemployed adult candidates in the eyes of criminal law both running for President and yet both on two different social welfare payments – hypocrisy rife on this vote – it looks like Enda has the job promised to some young wan !
And we also need a compulsory age for the retirement of Politicians – under the moving with the times cop-on…
Look at what the seventy year old Michael Noonan did – lied to the dail on six or so occasssions regarding the Siteserv controversy – Alzheimers , Dementia or crookery from a by-gone age or none of the above ?
Che Guevara was 30 when he rolled into Habana with Fidel.
Thanks for that guys. Cleared up a couple of important things.
So in essence, voting No on the SSM referendum will mean that children adopted by SSM couples will mean that they will always grow up in a “non-married” family…………….
One of the couples on the series “worlds strictest parents” were a gay couple and they did a fantastic job. Of course, that’s no indication of in the overall scheme of things but their sexual orientation made no difference to their excellent parenting skills.
Simon Harris for president? Don’t make me laugh!
Never saw Damien’s video until I read this article. Really beautifully put as to why a yes vote is important. I hope it gets more views.
I wonder if people will resume business as usual when this is over, the journal will be a quieter place after this.
It would seem,Ssm and equality fiction is the new reality.
no David.
after SSM – euthanasia will be the next for the Journal.ie
Removal of the 8th amendment, for abortion on demand, will be on the Media’s ‘wish list’ as well.
Yeah I forgot about those Zoe, its just a rollercoaster ride for the Journal.
I wonder just how far this separation of church movement will go, taking that green section out of the national flag may proove a little more difficult that the referendum.
Abolish the green lets make it pink with yellow poka dots. Referendum.
yes, David, never a dull moment on the Journal! SSM is just the beginning for them.
Tell the truth–are Zoe and David the same person?
Seamous what makes you think we are the same, ZOE and David are two completely different people, so since you have made a claim, back it up.
You accusation are outside the boundaries of reason, no evidenced.
No case.
So a “Journalist” walks around Tipp town asking it’s residents. What way are you voting ? and they tell him ” Oh we are voting yes of course, we aren’t bigoted haters here ” that’s a surprise.
The polls mean nothing.
You just been discriminated against a large portion of the country. Grow up.
Feic off!!! Tipper-hairy is the holiest county in Ireland!!!!! It’s a great place for potholing alright!!!
Why was Clonmel not surveyed, it is the biggest town in the county and has a relatively diverse population. Would it have skewed your figures? This article is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. To be fair ticking RC on census is just a statement of fact not a statement of faith or adherence to RC moral teaching.
Tipp will vote yes, and rightly so.
65-35 against? Living in a bloody fantasy world.
People keep saying “Look at what happened with children’s rights!” Yes it narrowed from a comparable high. It still passed by a considerable margin.
Talk about wishful thinking…
O yes get the GAA ones involved, a bunch of thick sods…
Would you say that to a man with ahurley in his hand Michael – sin an ceist i Eire an am i gconai …
As an older person, supposedly stuck in my ways, I have no objection and in fact, support it strongly. I think it cruel and old fashioned to deny people rights on the basis of sexual orientation and cannot think how it could be justified.
Churches have the right to stipulate their rules for weddings within the context of their different religions but the state should be a model for freedom, democracy and the treatment of all the people here should reflect well on them. Unfortunately it does not.
The old and disabled, children, the sick and gay folk, unmarried mothers, homeless and poor are marginalised and treated most unfairly. As a society is judged by the way its citizens are treated I must say Ireland is not showing well.
from south tipp and will be voting yes
Would he not talk to the councillor inside, can’t hear a word he’s saying with the wind blowing.
Why can’t Fine Gael debate the real issues of this very important Referendum?
Do we live in a country run by a dictator or do we have a democracy where voters views are important ?
have your say