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Updated 12.14pm
A JUNIOR MINISTER has admitted that some Labour TDs, including himself, may miss today’s Dáil vote on Clare Daly’s fatal foetal abnormality bill.
Kevin Humphreys, the junior social protection minister, told Morning Ireland that it may not be because of the particular vote but because “a Dáil deputy’s schedule is a very busy schedule”.
His comments come as party colleague, Anne Ferris, prepares to oppose her party and vote for Daly’s bill. The vote is due to take place in the Dáil at 5pm. The government is opposing the bill on the advice of the Attorney General that it is unconstitutional.
“First of all it’s a Tuesday, many people have the different things to do, and different commitments. I myself may not be in the chamber because I’m taking legislation through the Seanad today,” Humphreys explained.
“So there may be people missing. It may not be because they’re particularly missing to avoid the vote.”
He added: “I would say the maximum number of Labour TDs that are there, are present, will be in the house and will vote with the party.
Humphreys said that he was surprised by party colleague Ferris’s decision to defy the party whip and support the bill but said the advice was that it was unconstitutional.
However, he added: ”In principle, what Clare Daly has said, I agree with it.
“It’s not really the right thing to do to put a woman on a place to go over and have an abortion when the foetus isn’t viable, is not going to survive and make her go through that nine months. A woman in that position should have a choice.”
The Dublin South-East TD also appeared to agree that the Attorney General’s advice to government on this issue should be published and said that the wider issue was the need to repeal the 8th Amendment.
Speaking on his way into cabinet this morning, Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin said Labour had a long record of campaigning on issues surrounding abortion law, but that the bill being proposed would be “cruel”.
“We want to give real redress to these people, real solutions to these people, not enact legislation that constitutionally is infirm and therefore will have no effect for them. That, I believe, would be cruel.”
Elsewhere, while Sinn Féin plans to abstain on tonight’s vote, Fianna Fáil will allow free vote.
The party’s health spokesperson Billy Kelleher plans to vote for Daly’s bill while its children’s spokesperson Robert Troy said he remained undecided.
“I believe the idea of a free vote would allow this parliament to mature and have a very open debate on this issue, that it wouldn’t come down hard and fast on party lines,” Kelleher said.
Speaking outside Leinster House today, Kelleher called on the government parties to allow a free vote among their TDs, arguing the constitutionality of the bill can only be tested by the Supreme Court.
The Cork North-Central TD added: “I don’t see why the parliament is always obliged to take the Attorney General’s advice. The government is, but the Dáil certainly isn’t.”
Last night, Anne Ferris confirmed her intentions in an interview on RTÉ’s Claire Byrne Live last night, saying: ”It is a matter of principle for me.”
The Wicklow TD will automatically forfeit the Labour whip with her vote against the government, the party’s chief whip Emmet Stagg confirmed to TheJournal.ie last night.
Speaking to RTÉ, Ferris said she was willing to accept the consequences of her decision if it results in her being expelled from the Labour Party.
The bill is above politics.
Ferris said that she has been campaigning for this all her adult life.
“I am pro-choice and I make no apologies for it.”
She clarified that the vote today will not enact legislation, but is merely allowing it to go on to Committee Stage, where the bill will be gone through line-by-line by legal experts.
Ferris said that Tánaiste Joan Burton had not been in contact with her about her decision or the impending vote.
There is growing unease among backbenchers at the prospect of the government again opposing a bill from the United Left TD that was debated in the Dáil last Friday.
Labour will hold a special briefing on the legal advice from the Attorney General in a bid to convince uneasy TDs of the reasons why it must be opposed.
This is set to take place at 3.30pm today before a Dáil vote sometime after 5pm.
The bill would provide for two suitably qualified medical professionals (an obstetrician and a perinatologist) to jointly certify in good faith that the foetus in question is suffering from a fatal foetal abnormality.
Proponents of it have argued it does not confer any new rights in relation to abortion, merely clarifies existing rights and, they argue, it is constitutional.
However, speaking for the government last Friday, Health Minister Leo Varadkar said the bill was flawed legislation and would require a referendum which the government has no mandate to do.
Labour’s official party policy is to seek the repeal of the 8th Amendment which provides the mother and unborn child with an equal right to life. But the party argues it currently has no mandate for a referendum and would seek one after the next election.
Just one Labour TD, Joanna Tuffy, spoke on the bill last Friday, saying she believed it was unconstitutional.
Other TDssaid to be particularly uneasy about opposing Daly’s legislation are Ciara Conway and Michael McNamara. Several Labour TDs contacted by TheJournal.ie yesterday did not return comment.
It’s thought that several could fail to show up for today’s vote as happened last December when 13 Labour deputies failed to show for a vote on a bill that would have provided for a referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment.
Dublin Mid-West deputy Robert Dowds said the issue could not be tackled until the 8th Amendment is repealed, and added: ”That won’t be until after the next general election.”
There have been calls on the Labour leadership to allow its TDs a free vote on the legislation.
However, this could prove problematic as a whip was applied to Fine Gael TDs during the debate on the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill in 2013 and several members of the senior coalition partner were expelled for opposing the government.
Speaking to LMFM yesterday morning Meath East TD Dominic Hannigan said that he didn’t know why the AG’s advice was that the bill is unconstitutional.
“I want to hear what the legal expert says before I make up my mind,” he said.
He said that many within the party would “love to support Clare’s bill” and added that the “time has come for legislation on this”.
- additional reporting Christina Finn and Daragh Brophy
First published 10.22am on Monday, 09 February 2015
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Our political elite couldn’t lie straight in bed.
Apple, anyone?
@Trevor Hayden: I think its rather funny that you think our politicans could be described as “elite”.
@Trevor Hayden: Very well put.
@John Ryan: That’s how they see themselves.
@John Ryan:
They have elite salarys
@John Ryan: Their pensions and Salaries could be described as Elite their intellect on the other hand…..
Of course the tax haven is not gonna admit to being a tax haven.
LOL!
And NAMA is ‘doing a fantastic job’
Chemical Pascal.
@Jack McGready: Tax loop holes for the wealthy. none for the PAYE workers. FG/FF gravytrain.
@Jack McGready: The government should now move to apply the 12.5% rate on everything that flows through Ireland, not just Irish sales. To eliminate this talk once and for all.
The multinationals would still prefer it to paying 30% in France but we would be Norway rich!
@Irish “Design”: good idea as long as the “new tax riches “are used to reduce the burden on current tax payers
@Sean Conway:
Why crib? Corporations & multinationals dont have the vote.
Just vote to give citizens living overseas the vote and then we’ll sort out the individuals’ tax woes.
We need a reversal of VAT/Corporate Tax, ie: 22% corporate tax & 12.5% VAT.
How about a new Political Party:
-The Tax Justice Party
-cloud funded
-Tax Policy: Corporate Tax, Individual Tax & VAT set annually at the average rates of the EZ
-That all Irish Citizens are permitted to vote (Stop selling Citizenship to all not born in the island of Ireland & phase out existing citizenship for those
living abroad who were not born in the island of Ireland (Bord Failte using
easy citizenship to Americans who have an Irish ancestor is absurd and
devalues genuine citizenship with full citizen rights including the right to vote)
-Budget health , education & welfare at the EZ average
Let’s face it , if we are genuine about being wanting to be Europeans then what’s wrong with a political/economic policy which aims at the EZ average.?
Perhaps we dont have the self confidence to compete with our EZ peers on a level playing field. It would seem that we prefer to be smartassed as opposed to being smart?
@Sean Conway: It isn’t wealthy individuals that are not paying tax. If you work for Apple here and earn, say, €100,000 the state will quite happily take as much of that as it can get, far more in fact than the UK or most European nations. It’s corporate profits that are the issue in this.
Wow, if Paschal Donohoe and the Dept of Finance say that Ireland isn’t a tax haven, then it must be true. Because as we all know, they are great at explaining anything away with their mumbo jumbo management speak. What a douche.
@Ron O’Keefe:
I’m becoming more and more convinced that Pascal is a programmed humanoid.
Either that or he just loves taking the pith out of the public.
@Jack McGready: He’s an absolute embarrassment. They couldn’t run a newsagent, let alone a country.
@Wez Moore: If they ran a newsagents they would be short on papers.
Setting a minimum tax liability for the multinationals of a paltry 6%, less than HALF of the normal rate, would bring in billions extra and would solve our housing national emergency in the medium term.
@The Risen: Its not that simple. The rate is irrelevant. What’s relevant is what are you applying that rate to. Most multinationals, don’t have a defined revenue stream in Ireland. They bill other entities of the same company in other EU countries for their products or services. Basically they set the price and hence define the revenue and profit for the selling entity. It’s known as transfer pricing. This allows a multinational to increase profits in low tax countries like Ireland. The internal pricing is agreed with the Irish Revenue. And it tends to be a percentage of cost. so they more you pump into the Irish economy the less tax you pay. Its very clever from an Irish point of view.
@CrabaRev: to clarify: so the more you pump into the Irish economy you pay less tax globally, but you pay more tax in Ireland.
Still very clever form an Irish point of view.
@CrabaRev: That’s how Starbucks list Switzerland as the world’s biggest coffee producer. It’s just white collar theft.
There are just two rules for creating a successful tax haven:
1. Don’t tell them everything you know.
2. [Redacted]
Home of the Filthy Rich Tax Haven Emerald Ireland wins Hands Down !
@Johnny Mason: Hah, Pathcal and his somantics.
Good man paschal,keep telling fairytales.
The corporates don’t pay the taxes, their employees do however. We’ve one of lowest entry point to the higher tax band in europe at 33,800. The UK is £46k sterling before 40% kicks in.
@Joshua Walsh: Not to mention that many things which are free at point of use in the UK (GPs, hospitals, university admission and books, the list is endless) are charged for here so that what you are left with doesn’t go as far. Then there is the higher VAT rates, VRT on cars, higher insurance costs…
“Ireland is the number one shifting destination”
Can’t argue with that.
Its the dept of finance job to protect its hidden tax haven status, GDP growing by 26% in 2015 thanks to apple. Wasting taxpayer funds fighting the European commission to protect one multinational knowing that Ireland can’t win only delaying and giving apple cover.
Our labour market is distorted thanks to our tax haven status creating manufacturing jobs in china while we pay more to Europe because our GDP on paper is higher.
Irish people can’t afford homes because that’s another market that completely distorted even the mafia cleans its money on our shores. we allow multinationals to steal other European countries taxes and profit little ourselves.
We have the best paid politicians on this planet who rule without ever worrying about a conflict of interest because they are all at it. Just like the guards and penalty points, no politician will every face justice because we would need to jail they lot.
@leartius: But leartius, don’t you realise some people on here know someone who know someone who works for Intel or Google or Ebay or PayPal or Apple? Their jobs are far more important than the law, justice, morality, fairness, or any of that oul nonsense!
Just from a pragmatic perspective, if Ireland is the base of global operations and they move all non-US profits to Ireland, then to the US via the Caribbean, as long as they are paying EU tax compliant corporation tax rates on those profits, then we are not a tax haven. If we don’t apply those rates through either independent deals to hide or evade those, it is corruption, not systemic tax evasion. We are facilitating lapses in the home countries tax systems, especially the US, but not a tax haven.
@Gulliver Foyle: but if the profits are booked in Ireland and never repatriated to US or anywhere else for that matter and these global corporations are paying negligible amounts of tax then clearly that makes Ireland a tax haven, regardless of the dictionary definition of that term.
The state of this comment section… Zero understanding of global taxation and no interest in trying to understand it. They just wanna sound off and say something populist. Thejournal.ie have linked the research paper at the top. I encourage folks to read it and reflect on why Ireland topped the global list, the nature of the balance sheet items on Irish entities relative to employee numbers and how as a services economy connecting the US to the EU, the results become inevitable. Especially considering the size of the companies relative to the domestic population… Sorry, I meant, that Pascal fella, some fool eh…
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: You cant expect the anti everything crowd to spend their time actually informing themselves of the facts about taxation, what would they complain about in the comments section if they couldn’t ignorantly talk about apples 13 billion?
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: so what your saying is people have it all wrong and that we should encourage the little or no paying of tax by multinationals because we don’t understand the great global taxation plan……ok maybe explain that to the Irish businesses who employ people and who don’t get those sweet heart deals, seems to me if we gonna give it to one why not all companies. Imagine the help this would give struggling Irish businesses who are paying and playing by the rules…..funny that
@Ian McNally: must be great to think you know more than the rest…..and despite what you may have gotten about people’s understanding of this taxation issue, people can see that yes it’s helping employee people and that brings in taxes another way, but also makes a mockery of the likes of the government and IDA etc telling us these companies are here for the great workforce and the rest when it’s only a small percentage of the reason and as I pointed out since we feel so generous giving these deals to multinationals, why not just give it to Irish companies who won’t upsticks and leave when something better comes along……just a thought of a simple lad you think doesn’t understand the global taxation plans
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: it’s good for Ireland in that we get to keep a very small fraction of the forgone tax (200bn annually in the EU) and that helps our economy but we are a global pariah for doing so. Let me put it to you this way. If somebody showed up and said let me sell hot dogs from your front garden and I’ll give you 2% of my takings. Steady income rolling in for us but obvious downsides for all the neighbours. Now do you get it Ciaran with all the fadas? Simple when someone explains it to you really. For tonight’s homework I want you to do the 2 times tables and read page 4 from Ann and Barry.
@Thomas Michael Newell: and yet you still refuse to accept that we arent by any definitionof the term a tax haven, the double irish issue which is what you are refferring is also now no longer possible and will be completely gone by 2021, the narative that we are the worst culprit of this is also incorrect the netherlands dutch sandwich example is far worse, also France who constantly like to hit us as they have a published rate double ours but in reality it is about the same as ours once all their loopholes come into effect, so yes i do believe you dont know anything about this subject. And finally if all the above is true, which it is, then your reasoning that they are primarily here for the tax is completely incorrect.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Keep putting those fadas in, Fallon. Makes you feel more Irish than other people does it? Superior? Not populist?
Nearly 100 years of FFG.. We deserve em..
It’s a disgusting practice the department of revenue do the VRT tax it’s an illegal tax they do what they went and allow company’s pay little tax
It’s a bloody joke the sooner the better they sit in front of the EEC and face vast fines for what they are doing
@laurence o neill: VRT is a disgrace, but it’s not unique to Eire. Netherlands, Luxembourg too AFAIK also have the equivalent. The state attitude is only rich ( that is people who work) people run cars, so they can afford it. Can’t be having (little) people not paying tax now, sure we’d be a tax haven then!
Without these multi national companies a huge percentage of the population would be unemployed .
@Jack Goff: We would be back in Ireland post 1990 or probably a lot worse with our debt levels…..basically broke and every Tom Dick and Harry looking for work in other countries, but these countries are fast pulling up the draw bridges to new migrants, so it would be very interested to see what would happen to our unemployed masses if they did pull out…..
@Jack Goff: and the complete over reliance on them means at the drop of a hat they can leave and we are screwed……maybe give these deals to some Irish companies who actually are here cos they want to be not cos we are effectively bribe and begging them
@Jack Goff: Same argument many companies have made to explain why they didn’t pay their employer’s PRSI contributions, if I did I’d have had to close down. Apple et al employ precisely the minimum number they need here, many of whom by the way are US citizens who have moved over, arguably taking a job from an Irish person. Tax fraud is tax fraud, if we ignore morality then ‘but the slaves are keeping the economy going’. If employment is based on robbing our EU partners and the USA of their rightful taxes we should stop doing that and accept the job losses. It’s called not being a banana republic.
Paul Krugman was right this is Lepreachaun economics accounts for 26% growth rate in 2016, meanwhile the EU federalists are biding their time until post brexit , and they come after our 12% corporation rate. They are keeping their powder dry for the moment , because they are using us as a stick to beat the nasty Brits with for the time being, when that is done all bets are off, if it walks like a duck and if it quacks like a duck it`s usually a duck I find
@Patrick James Walsh: Just a matter of time and it won’t be just the EU, President Trump’s USA and Canada and the rest of the OECD want their due. I hope they get it as well. Time to stop the theft.
The dept of finance can dismiss it all they want. Their views on the matter hold very little credence to everybody else.
Sure it’s not a tax haven it’s just a low-tax jurisdiction to route your profits through to avoid paying higher taxes elsewhere.
I don’t particularly care if we’re a tax haven or not. We need jobs, skilled and well paid ones. And we should use every weapon in our arsenal to beat our EU partners into submission at every given opportunity.
@mike scott: Ah the true voice of I’m all right jack. Mixed with the usual Irish nationalist delusion that a tiny state can beat a massive entity like the EU. Cop yourself on.
We don’t do honesty very well, we are like a rogue state
What happened to several large corporations all registered in single houses in Holland. Still going on ?
Of course is the biggest tax haven for multinational corporations. Ask Apple !!!
It’s not for people who is living and working here in Ireland.
Ireland has full tax autonomy, given by the EU if Lisbon mk 2 was passed. The government can set any tax rate they like if it means attracting multi-national companies to set up in Ireland. Whether you think that is right or wrong just remember it has the EU’s blessing.
@John Hagin Meade: If you had followed any of this you would know that the EU is not complaining about the 12.5% rate. It is complaining that Apple et al are not even paying 1%.
“We’re phasing out” – not “We’ve completely phased out”
“We’ve made many of the changes requied” – not “We’ve made all the changes required”
Do we believe the finance minister or real economists at the University of California @ Berkley along with the Danes ?
Off topic, post Brexit is our EU contribution based on GDP or GNI ? – hope it’s the latter.
In shocking developing news, the department of taxation deny any wrongdoing in the department of taxation…
“fails to provide any definition for a tax haven”!
Maybe they assumed that people already knew. Try Googling it.
It is a tax haven. Study after study says it is. Of course our own central bank and politicians are going to reject this every time. Its not in our interest to be seen as such, but the fact is we are and we are seen as this.
If companies are setting up based on your tax model, then you’re a tax haven.
I will say that Ireland does offer more than just being a tax haven, like say, our neighbours Isle of Man, the difference is we do have other benefits, well educated workforce, robust company laws, ease to set up, etc… but these cannot still take away the fact that we are a tax haven. The US is also a tax haven, if you look at certain states like Delaware
Small and medium companies here pay 12.5%. Apple, Google, EBay and the rest don’t even pay 1%, FG need to rethink their attitude to this and own up. It’s at odds with their law and order policy, with fairness and with being a good EU member.
Ah,so that’s why we are doing business with China,,the beef deal and big Bio Pharma company proposed for Dundalk, once you mix with China,its bye bye small fry
My summation of Ireland’s Euro Politechnocrats…
Overweight and sweaty, Mr. Parsons swallows the Party lines whole. In addition to having to endure him as a neighbor, Winston has to work with the man. His unblinking acceptance of the Doctrine makes Winston think Parsons will never be vaporized. But he is surprised in the end to find him at the Ministry of Love, no poorer for having been denounced by his horrible children.
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