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THE OIREACHTAS COMMITTEE on the Eighth Amendment today voted to recommend an abortion regime similar but not identical to that which was recommended by the Citizens’ Assembly.
On the substantive issue over whether the Eighth Amendment be repealed, the committee voted by a margin of 14 votes to six that it should.
This differed to the recommendation by the assembly which said that the Eighth Amendment be replaced or amended.
In 15 other votes taken today, the committee recommended what amounts to a significant liberalisation of Ireland’s abortion regime.
Among the recommendations were that a termination should be available without restriction up to 12 weeks of pregnancy. That matches the recommendation of the Citizens’ Assembly.
The committee’s report will also recommend that a termination be legal in cases of fatal foetal abnormality but it will not recommend that a termination be legal in cases where a foetal abnormality is not deemed to be fatal.
On that latter point, the committee differs from the Citizens’ Assembly which recommended that a termination be legal in cases of a “significant abnormality” that are not fatal.
The committee also rejected the Citizens’ Assembly recommendation that abortion be legal for socio-economic reasons.
Reaction
Now that its voting has been completed, the committee will now draft a report for the Oireachtas which the government will use to devise the wording of a referendum.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has stated that it is his desire to hold such a referendum in May.
For this timeline to be met, is expected a Dáil referendum bill would be required to be passed by the end of next month.
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have said that their TDs will have a free vote on matters relating to the Eighth Amendment.
Since the completion of today’s’ committee, campaign groups and political parties have been giving their reactions.
The Coalition to Repeal the Eighth Amendment
We warmly welcome the committee’s recognition that women’s healthcare does not belong in the Constitution and their clear recommendation for repeal of the Eighth Amendment.We are particularly pleased that the committee has recommended that legislation should include provision of abortion without restriction as to reason up to 12 weeks as this will provide for the majority of women who seek abortions in Ireland. We believe that the Committee’s recommendations reflect the wishes of a majority of the Irish people.
The Pro Life Campaign
Today’s vote for abortion by the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment is a total betrayal of women and their unborn babies and represents a tragic drift backwards for society rather than a step forward. Anyone who tries to suggest that today’s vote is not for abortion on demand is telling a lie.The decision to opt for a time limit of 12 weeks on request was plucked from thin air. It reveals a frightening disregard for the right to life of the most innocent and defenceless members of society, namely unborn babies.
Amnesty International
Today’s vote is an important step forward for the human rights of women and girls in Ireland. It is also a victory of expert evidence and reason over disinformation and ideology. It should finally put to bed the portrayal of abortion reform as too complicated or controversial.The committee’s acceptance of abortion as a health and human rights issue is not only of immense domestic significance. It is an important outcome in the global fight for women’s and girls’ sexual and reproductive rights.
Sinn Féin
“Today is a welcome day for the women of Ireland, who have been let down by the political system for decades in providing for their medical needs,” said Louise O’Reilly TD.“The recommendations of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth amendment represent a historic step forward in correcting that injustice and are a step forward for the campaign to repeal the Eighth amendment.”
“The challenge now is to have that referendum as soon as possible and to win that referendum. Sinn Féin has been unambiguous and consistent in our opposition to the Eighth amendment. The constitution is not the place to deal with any issues relating to women’s health.”
The Green Party
“The committee’s recommendation has put Ireland on track to providing full reproductive care to its citizens,” said Catherine Martin TD.“Over the last 13 weeks the expert evidence and experiences heard at the committee have shown just how pressing the need is to remove the eighth amendment from our constitution.
Women’s healthcare should not be constitutionally restricted and now, for the first time in 34 years, we have an opportunity to rectify that.”
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It’s about time this country grew up and took its head out of the sand. We have been exporting this issue to Britain for decades so we can claim the high moral ground. I don’t believe in abortion unless medically necessary but I respect the right of those who do believe in it to have access to it in their home country where they can be supported by their loved ones.
@Emachine: If the referendum fails, there will still be 4000 Irish abortions in the UK. The so called “prolife” hypocrites should be calling for repeal of the 13th amendment. As long as that’s in place there will always be thousands of Irish abortions a year.
I don’t get why pro life groups don’t call for a ban on the sale of alcohol and tobacco to pregnant women. Or for drug using women to be forced into rehab since they want equal right for born or unborn babies. What other rights can the they say foetuses being denied? Surely it’s not limited to the right to life?
@Emachine: I agree in part to what you say but this is a medical issue between a woman and her doctor. What right do I have over another persons body?
@DaisyChainsaw: An amend with two questions would have sailed through. But they gone for broke and lost my vote in doing so. Wonder how many Irish households have a lav?
@Emachine: couldn’t have said it better.
@Ciaran O Shea: jeezus Ciaran if you’ve nothing sensible to say then keep quiet…
@Emachine: We haven’t been “exporting” anything. People have been travelling freely to kill their young.
@Stephen Duffy: If only you practiced what you speak
@Johnny Bellew: That’s a matter of opinion, by the way if you can report these killings to police that would be great can’t have murders walking the streets. Why is it anti-choicers always use such dramatic language is it a scare mongering thing!!
@Celtic_Horizon: Why would I report them to the Police when they have already legalised the murder of the unborn in the UK?
@Johnny Bellew: They legalized murder I didn’t know that!!! Such dramatic language you must work in the theater
@Celtic_Horizon: Apparently when you tell a de facto truth and the moderator doesn’t like it, he/she then deletes it.
@Johnny Bellew: Truth is only as good as the facts it is based on
@Celtic_Horizon: An unborn baby is a human and abortion kills humans so call it what you like- “a rose by any other name”….
A very sad day indeed ,with the stroke of a pen and buckets of moral cowardness ,the government proposes abortion on demand ,the irish state has sunk to new levels ,but that does not surprise me one iota yet again the innocent left to pick the tab for the negligent and those with no sense of human dignity.
@Anthony Gallagher: Why do you hate women?
@Justin Barrett: he’s not looking to terminate women… So it’s quite the opposite! Why do you hate babies??
@Anthony Gallagher: Is it not about time this country took care of its own? I agree whole heartedly with Emachine’s comment. Time that Ireland gave up being so hypocritical!! Time these women/girls had the full support they need or even deserve in the country of their birth. I would say that very few women entertain having an abortion lightly!
@Anthony Gallagher: funny, I would consider those that put the health and well being of women, before a bunch of cells, the ‘moral cowards’.
…Behind well being …
@Sinead Fox: *Catholic Logic
@Joe Black: Oh dear. Watching antichoice foetus fetish porn again?
@Joe Black: Should I assume then, that you have presented yourself as available for any and all clinical trials relating to the male contraceptive pill. And that you will be gifting all male relatives, friends, colleagues, etc, with condoms this Christmas, to ensure that an unwanted pregnancy doesn’t end up being a surprise present.
@Justin Barrett: Not wanting to kill babies does not equate to hating women. Back to school dunce!
@Joe Black: Do young men ‘entertain having unprotected sex’? Do they need to see what you have described?
@Padraic Reid: But there is no “babies” being ‘killed’.That is just nonsense talk.Do you normally try to stop women from making any other medical choices that they make in life ? Why do you want a grown woman to take a very high risk with her physical well-being,by making her go full term with an unwanted pregnancy ? Would you take that risk for something that you have no relationship with ?
@Joe Black: so there you go, nothing to do with babies, you’ve commented on womens’ behaviour here. You’re a mysoginst.
@Justin Barrett: Why do Fine Gael canvassers and pro repealers use Catholocism and religion in abortion debate? Answer: because they have over 30 tactics drawn up by a spin doctor, one of whch says ‘associate prolife with religion etc. It goes without saying they don’t have a valid argument so they need emotionalism, drama and tactics. People are able to see through this. Atheists and people of no religion are prolife too
I believe 12 is reasonable.
I think the majority only want it available for fatal foetal abnormality or rape. Unconditionally doesn’t sound like what I’ve been hearing but we’ll see what the wording of the referendum will be and the ballot box will decide. Modern democracy in action
@Cathal: fatal foetal abnormally is rarely picked up that early…and rape almost never ‘proven’ that early…that said 12 weeks is reasonable to me…
@Cathal: Without unrestricted access in the early stages of pregnancy, a sexual assault &/or rape victim who becomes pregnant & does not want to be, will most likely still have to travel to another jurisdiction, or procure abortion medication online, or engage in other methods of ending the pregnancy. Because that soon after, many victims may not be ready to speak about the event, and to have to ask someone’s permission, face the possibility of not being believed & denied, is facing further trauma when already in a highly vulnerable state.
@Ned Flanders: 12 is reasonable. The problem is that have left future increases is the hand of the oireachtas and not a referendum. I don’t know who the 4 who voted for 22 weeks but I could guess that they are the perpetual moaners unlikely to be in government but the fact remains that they have removed constitutional protection enabling late term. So it’s retain for me.
@lavbeer: The only reason any woman would be allowed late term is medical reasons based on medical advice!! But you know best and feel they don’t need it and so force the women that can afford it to fly to other countries to help our women the way they should be helped here
@Celtic_Horizon: not according to 20% of the OC. Weak argument from you. Simple replacement to repoint to a new referendum when the moaning for 22 weeks starts within a year of introduction is all that was needed.
@lavbeer: Weak!!!! Are you serious I was pointing out facts. Doesn’t matter 8th has one foot in grave it’s time is nearly over enjoy the middages while they last
@Celtic_Horizon: you say that only abortions late term are for medical reasons. This is covered by recommendations. No problem. But the for non medical- 12 weeks day 1 okay. The guarantee has been removed. Give an inch and all that. A reluctant retain.
@Ned Flanders: At 12 weeks “… the foetus is fully formed. All the organs, muscles, limbs and bones are in place, and (her/his) sex organs are well developed. From now on, the baby has to grow and mature.
It’s too early for you to be able to feel the baby’s movements yet, although she or he will be moving quite a bit.”
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/pregnancy-weeks-9-10-11-12.aspx
Why do you want to protect unborn humans after 12 weeks but not before?
@Róisín Lawless: The foetus at 12 weeks isn’t “fully formed,” as If that was the case it would be able to survive outside of the woman’s womb-it cannot..
If there was no term limits,people like you would even go more bat shit crazy!
“Pro Life” people try to put term limits at six weeks when they say that a “heartbeat” can be detected..In other words,they want NO abortions..
Most terminations happen before the end of the first trimester,so that is one of the reasons that they put that limit there.The MAIN reason is that that is when it’s the SAFEST time for a woman to get an abortion.The longer into the pregnancy then the higher risk of injury to her..You can find these things out…if you want to..
@EvieXVI: True, if it’s in cases of rape they’ll make women stand in front of a tribunal and be like ‘hmm, but how can we prove….’ More shaming and humiliation, further distrust of women, damage to their civil rights. Unacceptable.
@EvieXVI: Why are people continuing to use fhe term ‘fatal foetal abnormality when no doctor can say for certain whether most of these babies will die. The word ‘fatal’ should not be used.
@Gav Quinn: A raped woman can go to a crisis cenre, doctor or hospital and be treated for possible STDs and to prevent conception takiing place. Rape forms a very very small number of pregnanciies being aborted and if aborted, lets the rapist off with the crime and makes the innocent baby pay with its life.
Excellent, good to know that the so called pro life fundamentalists and religious right are losing control of our lives
@Michael farrelly: Exactly, Ireland is slowly but surely starting to look like an actual secular Republic which is what we are supposed to be. Once we get the schools back the job will be done.
@Justin Barrett: Soaring murder rates, soaring gangland/gun crime, soaring sexual assault/rape cases, soaring drug problems, soaring bullying amongst minors/children, sky high suicide rate, rampant greed/fraud by capitalist vultures, soaring homelessness, not to mention the depraved garbage that fills our tvs and computer screens….shall I continue. All the above are provable facts and go hand in hand with the decline in religion and the death of morality in this country. And now to top it off, it looks like we’re heading for an abortion on demand regime where it is fine and dandy to exterminate innocent human life (yes, even at 2, 4, 12, 24 weeks whatever you want to call it, it is human and it’s living, therefore it’s human life). Welcome to secular, modern, progressive Ireland. Sounds a lot like Sodom and Gomorrah of the Old Testament to me. Progress me a**e. We are regressing if anything.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: I see youre religious so facts won’t matter too much to you. I just googled the first point. You can google the rest yourself.
So if religion is declining and murder rates have declined a load in the 13 years shown should I use your logic and say religion is the problem.
I see 2012 was low. Did you pray a lot that year?
@Michael O’Neill: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/republic-of-ireland-is-deadliest-place-to-live-in-irish-and-british-isles-new-figures-34614775.html
http://www.thejournal.ie/murder-ireland-2016-increase-3314227-Mar2017/
There were nearly as many homicides in the 12 years you referred to above as there were in the entire 70′s and 80′s when the troubles in the North spread south and resulted in scores of people in this state being murdered. But don’t let facts get in the way of your little debunking effort. Have a nice day in Sodom good sir.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: So what is it?
With the smaller murder rate now than 10 years ago are we getting more religious? Or is there another reason (or multiple reasons).
Hint : its the latter
Just like we can pick a pile of reasons why the murder rate was lower in the 80s. You didn’t povide a link for that but I’ll assume you’re providing the truth. It seems suss.
I don’t want to keep going back and cherry picking years of decades where rates went up and down. Any idiot can do that.
.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: Lol! It was your religion that inflicted the most depraved and immoral era on the Irish people, a particularly gruesome act not so long ago by a member of your clergy was the rape of a child with a crucifix. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-singing-priest-tony-walsh-found-guilty-of-raping-boy-with-crucifix-34856720.html
@Justin Barrett: do you think the church did anything positive in Ireland? Do you beliveve all priests are like the one in your link?
@Cathal S Byrne: All covered up right to the top and moved on to reoffend in other parishes, good for you if you condone that kind of behaviour.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: http://www.cso.ie/multiquicktables/quickTables.aspx?id=cja01
might want to actually look at the facts before you go spreading fear
@Justin Barrett: you didn’t answer either question so I’ll take it that you don’t think all priests are the same and that religion play some positive role in our country. That’s all you had to say but I’ve deduced that from your last comment
@Justin Barrett: No…I think you’ll find he was more than likely a member of the LGBTQRSTUV society, that ye liberals love so much, who infiltrated the church to get easy access to boys….I don’t think too many straight priests would have an interest in boys.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: That is just a lie perpetrated by bigots, homosexuality is not the same as paedophilia, if it were priests would not have molested small girls.
@Cathal S Byrne: Would you continue to work for an organisation you knew had a large network of active paedophiles and your bosses covered it up and allowed it to continue to protect the organisation’s image? Complicit by association, not all priests are bad but they are involved in peddling lies and supporting and spreading discriminatory dogma. Any ‘good’ they did in hospitals and schools was merely for their own benefit, to control the ethos and indoctrination to suit their backwards dogma.
@Justin Barrett: I have heard all the stories from people who have experienced it about how depraved the gay scene is. And people think it’s a good idea to allow these people adopt children to allow them to pretend that they’re “normal”. Don’t make me laugh.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair:
Conservative homophobic christian dislikes abortion, reads the indo, can’t use stats properly, and can’t respond to rebuttals. Good job mate. I’m glad your ilk are slowly being erased by time.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: You have heard all the stories eh? Doesn’t sounds too believable. You are quite pathetic actually. Your bigoted way of thinking is in the past Tommo. The future belongs to kinder people than you.
@Tomás Ó Tiocair: Tell that to Fred and Rose West’s children, the ones who are still alive that is.
@Justin Barrett: the vast majority of priests are good people and if you think the church did no good for the people of this country then you need to be enlightened….or are you saying that without the church we’d all be doing better in this country?
@Cathal S Byrne: I know the full history of the church in Ireland, you need to research Archbishop McQuaid and his predecessors to see what brutal individuals they were. We had all of the foundations required for a society that was not at the behest of the Catholic theocracy before independence including a National School system which was multi-denominational. Read more, pray and comment less.
@Mitch Peterson: Kinder people who murder babies and allow children to be subjected to perverse social experiments to see if Paddy and Mick can play the role of mommy and daddy. All in the name of regression…ahem…progression!
@Fergus Flanagan: You sure look s**t cool in your profile pic there Gus….can’t argue with a lad who looks that cool smoking a cigarette.
@Justin Barrett: ‘Get the schools back’? When were they ever yours?
On behalf of my little girl, thank you to the committee members for their work…..
@The Risen: it’s not retrospective. There are other options available to you.
@The Risen: On behalf of all the children who may never see the light of day because of the immorality of the majority of the committee, shame on those members of the committee.
@Johnny Bellew: Go away outta that you mysoginst. Go adopt a kid or work in social services if you care so much about kids.
@Gav Quinn: You don’t know anything about me, also, you really ought to look up the word “misogynist”. It has a different meaning to your understanding.
@Gav Quinn: It will be hard to adopt a child when they are being aborted.
Finally my daughter may have a chance at bodily autonomy, should she, unfortunately, need it in the future.
@paddlingAlong: What does bodily autonomy even mean? Should there be no intervention if a person has suicidal thoughts? Is there no acknowledgement that what is growing in an expectant woman also contains the DNA of a male?
To deny that a foetus contains both male and female DNA enables the foetus to be treated like an unwanted mole or tumour. Is this what bodily autonomy promotes?
@Phil West: every single part of every human contains male and female dna, including tumours.
I feel so sad for Ireland – we care for the unborn and we care for women – this matter needs consideration by all
People not just extremes- personally I think the unborn deserves protection but let the people decide
@Tom smith: We haven’t cared for women at all, we never have, the exact opposite, we treated them like dirt. This is a small step to righting all those wrongs.
@Tom smith: Let the people with unwanted pregnancies decide: they’re the ones who are affected.
@Justin Barrett: quite the opposite, we are one of the safest places in the world to have a baby, ahead of other countries that provide abortion!! The protection of life during pregnancy act as well as other laws previously in place allow for situations where a mother’s life is in danger.. Abortion is not health care, it stops the heart of an innocent child…… It will be a sad day for Ireland if we become that cold and callous about the life of another
@Sinead Fox: Ah Sinead, Sinead, bless. I’ve read those brainless mantras time and time again over the years. They are all falsehoods and disproven by the medical community. Not all maternal deaths are recorded, therefore the ‘safest place to give birth’ has been debunked over and over. A foetus doesn’t have a heart for the first 7 weeks, blood is pumped via a single valve, and it’s not a child. I’m very sorry that you get your misinformation from fundamentalis sources, genuinely hope you look at the facts some day and come to your own conclusion instead of the conclusions of fanatics with an agenda. An open mind is like a parachute.
@Sinead Fox: You must never have heard of the Tuam work house were all the babies and children were buried in cesspits by the nuns that was Ireland looking after it’s women and children
The church has been trying it’s best to cover this up including pushing a pro life agenda at the same time the worst hypocrisy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home
@Celtic_Horizon: now you want the people of Ireland to approve flushing little babies down a toilet instead.. you’re no different to the former people that ran the work houses.
@Tom smith: personally I’ve had a positive birthing experience in Ireland but I know so many who have not been so lucky, had you been a woman you might know, plus it’s about time we deal with the subject, 10 women a day go to Britain and believe me it’s not something done lightly.
@Frank Brennan: No I saying we give them choice and control over their own decisions not forced abortions but hay it’s ok you obviously have your mind made up on strange ideas of toilets and there use
@Justin Barrett: Nobody gave a damn when my Mother was traumatised after been shown an aborted baby when working as a midwife nurse in the 1970′s in the UK. When its the law of the land;;; suck it up!
Spare a thought for those who find this whole thing really callous and cruel & are really not going to be OK when Repeal passes, especially if they work in the ‘healthcare’ industry.
Spare a thought for those who WILL be pressured to get rid of the problem when an unwanted unsupported pregnancy arises. This whole ‘if you don’t want an abortion, don’t get one’ is such a joke.
Like there’s no such thing as peer pressure? Right? From parents, from boyfriends who don’t want the responsibility or have the means or wherewithal to support. Don’t worry- its not even alive…just a bunch of cells…its your ‘right’.
I think to offer a woman the ‘choice’ to get rid of the ‘problem’ shows an extreme lack of care and support.
It’s telling her ‘she’s not worth it’.
@Justin Barrett: Your heart has 4 valve’s, so what’s your point?
You have 3 valves’ more so your a more deserving and equal human being?
Over-inflated, Puffed up minds are like a parachute Justin!
@Justin Barrett: The men who treated women like dirt will continue to do that because now the consequences of their crimes can be more easily coovered up.
Where is the scientific basis for the 12 week cut off point? From what I can see it’s just timed to the first scan which is the earliest point a FFA would be detected. Also, it never ceases to amaze me that I a debate on law and science people are willing to use such nonsense phrases as unborn babies. Even going as far as to call unborn babies members of societies. How many were there in the last census?
@Dave O Keeffe: I think a few factors are driving this 12 weeks notion. It’s at the current limit for medical, not surgical abortion, the foetus is nit far beyond embryonic stage, it is seen as the end of the first trimester and the gradualist ethicists who presented to the Citizens’ Assembly saw 12 weeks as unproblematic.
I endorse your views on the “unborn baby” notion. It is an invention or a conjuring up notion by PLAC, SPUC and the other pressure groups. Definition by negative attribute is senseless but emotionally affective.
The adjectives “innocent”, “little”, “tiny human being” etc are often used in a tendentious and emotive way.
@Fiona deFreyne: thanks for that. If there must be a time limit I’d rather it was based on something certain
@Dave O Keeffe: I think it is related to viability in case of premature birth. In the Netherlands the limit is 24 weeks, and questions have been raised with respect to this limit due to advancement in medical science, but survival rates at this point are apparently so low that it is deemed unrealistic in practice.
So my guess is that halving this number of weeks puts you on the ‘safe side’, so to speak.
@Dave O Keeffe: hi dave, its recorded in the census, 63,000 pregnant woment on that given date.
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: and are they counted twice? Or is that an potential addition to the population?
@Mick Tobin: thanks, all additional info is helpful
@Fiona deFreyne: pro abortionists similiarily use language to dehumanise the unborn yet I’ve never heard a pregnant woman celebrating her zygote or embryo..alway a baby then. If there is hypocrisy in the use of language it’s on the part of the pro abortionists
@Fiona deFreyne: Dave Edwards of course used the term unborn babies when discussing FFA. Remember the comment about your dead baby arriving home by courier.
@Misanthrope:Why would you celebrate a zygote ?You antis are nuts
@The Lad: baby when wanted, zygote when not
@Fiona deFreyne: And yet, the repealers are talking about the couple who had an abortion and had to bring their ‘baby’ home in the boot of their car. When it suits, it’s a baby!!!
@Mick Tobin: Not very safe for the baby!
So will Colm O’Gorman close down his charity ‘1 in 4’ and start a new charity ‘1 in 5’ to mark the 1 in 5 lives in the UK that are aborted.
This is really a sad day for human rights.
I believe most pro choice people would be seriously touched if they could watch an abortion at 12 weeks. People need to educate themselves with what they are being asked to vote for.
@Tom Burke: You do talk some emotional nonsense
Colm O’Gorman set up that charity ’1 in 4′ to help adults that were sexually abused as young children.These sexual abuse crimes were mainly carried out by the priests of the Catholic Church…Did the Catholic Church protect Fr Fortune ,Tom? ( I will have to read up on that one again..)
International human rights standards are not given to embryos or foetuses-they’re given to protect women,Tom..In fairness,you’d be bonkers to believe otherwise..
Why would anybody spend time looking at an abortion being carried out at 12 weeks ? 85% of abortions would be done before that stage ? Have you ever looked at a woman taking the abortion pills,Tom? You should see the aftermath of it on a pad..Have you ever seen a very heavy period ? I’m proudly pro- choice,Tom.
Instead of claiming responsibility for own actions (choosing a partner and sexual relationship wisely with the possibility of pregnancy in mind), and thus solve the majority of unwanted pregnancies, the society is moving in the direction of promoting apologetism for own actions’ irresponsibility and fixing the issue by interrupting pregnancies. Interesting.
People can have their moral opinion. It does not necessarily mean than their moral opinion should be embodied in the Constitution or in legislation.
There is mo moral choice and there is no moral action if there is legal compulsion on those too sick, too poor or too dependent to be able to travel to the UK.
@Fiona deFreyne: I am assuming anyone at all who is too sick too poor to raise a child will now be aborting. No doubt those who use the pro life don’t care about the living will agree. The days of the single mother looking for a house will come to an end in 20 years or so. Should it pass of course!
@lavbeer: women already are ..
@The Lad: fair enough so. In out housing crisis then it’s time to put single girl with baby down to bottom of the social housing list. Makes perfect sense.
I think this sensible.
Personally, we would not have an abortion but I understand I don’t live in everybody’s shoes.
I have a problem with exporting our problem, let us at least take some control over our destiny.
To the people who say life begins at conception, What about IVF… Are you going to call them Murder Babies?
@Cowboy Paddy: pretty much my thoughts too
@Cowboy Paddy: Nobody is exporting anything. Women are making individual decisions to travel abroad to kill their babies. Simple as that.
@Johnny Bellew: It’s not as simple as that.When you have approx 4,000 determined Irish women going to the UK, for what could be a very ‘simple’ medical procedure ,then you’re making them travel to another country..And “babies” are born..Why do you want Irish women to get the ‘RISKIER’ surgical procedure in the UK?
@The Lad: That “simple medical procedure” means killing an innocent human life. That is why we must protect the 8th. Any woman will tell you that they are carrying a “baby” or that they felt their “baby” move.
@Johnny Bellew: It is not innocent if it’s causing the woman physical or mental anguish ..You seem to be obsessed with calling human ‘embryos’ “babies”.. “Babies” are born..Baby is also a term of endearment,which is something that you keep on proving :-)
@The Lad: He knows it’s not black and white but he’s a mysoginst w@nker and doesn’t care. Doesn’t care what happens once they’re born either.
@Gav Quinn: There you go again, using words you don’t understand. Stick to the small words you understand.
@Johnny Bellew: you ARE a misogynist. Simple as that. Never mind auto correct errors, you are a misogynistic person, you focus only on the ‘poor baby’ and don’t care about the women. Your comments show that.
@Cowboy Paddy: Yes, seriously people don’t know what to do with their unwanted embryo’s and are paying out vast amounts of cash to keep them in storage indefinitely.
Remember Octo-Mom?
IVF industry did that to her and she received v. little sympathy or support thereafter.
Lovely ‘industries’ these ‘healthcare’ industries.
Next 6 months will be fun
@Leroy: unless you’re homeless
@: unless you post the same comment on every article.
People can have their moral opinion. It does not necessarily mean than their moral opinion should be embodied in the Constitution or in legislation.
There is no moral choice and there is no moral action if there is legal compulsion on those too sick, too poor or too dependent to be able to travel to the UK.
Anyway we have 8 weeks for a committee to pretty much agree with the latest polls. But it has been interesting. Mattie & Ronan little tantrums, Peter Boylan elevated to super doc, the owners of abortion.ie coming in with their business expertise. But what was your moment of the OC?
For me it has to be the TCD lady who claimed the whole country had mental health illness because of the 8th
@lavbeer: i’m glad that that was your highlight.Mine has been you trying to convince people that you’re ‘pro-choice’ ..
@The Lad: I never once claimed that though. It’s a bs term to remove guilt from people. Pro abortion on the lines of recommendations yes (minus one red line unfortunately). That I am.
Glad I provided some entertainment to you though. Remember choice is reason not the decision. It’s simple really and also the reason choice is offered to the masses.
@lavbeer: there you go again.” It’s a bs term to remove guilt from people” .That’s just your bs..
@The Lad: my opinion. And if you could have knocked it you would. Aimed at simpletons and hitting the target in your case I would suggest.
If people on eggheads are so clever why aren’t they sorting out brexit
Frauds
Could we include the right for a man to legal emancipate himself from any future responsibility of the child so long as he does so before week 12? This is the age of equality after all, men should be given the same right to choose.
@Patric Cooney: You should get every man to write up a legal contract before they offload their sperm into a woman’s vagina..What I do “like” about the “pro life” side is that they want to punish the woman and the child,EVEN if she gives birth.
@The Lad: what contract do you propose? Youre not suggesting that if a man didn’t want a child he shouldn’t have had sex with a woman are you? Because I assume you’d agree that nobody should tell a woman that if she didn’t want a child she shouldn’t have had sex with a man?
@Patric Cooney:Lets get back to the facts.Any man that impregnates a woman in this country,will know that the consequence of her going to full term with a pregnancy,is that he will have to pay for that child’s welfare.He will have to pay up to the child’s 18th birthday or when they’re finished college.If the child is born with a disability then it will be forever..We can only go by the laws that we currently have or that have a chance of becoming law in the near future..In fairness,yours has zero chance of ever becoming law :)
@The Lad: would you support a mans right to choose whether or not to have a baby? I know it’s not currently in law but if a movement was started would you support it?
It’s a very simple question, do you believe murder is ok
We don’t export “abortion” to the UK, people choose to go there to murder a child
@Fart:
I guess I’m just gonna have to say it!!
The new Star Wars movie was a bit of a let down.
@Treabhair Coulahan: like your sexy life?
Sounds reasonable. Women who want one already travel for one so if they’re going to do it anyway, they may as well take the travelling out & let them have it done here.
@Keith McDonagh: do you think the numbers won’t go up? That having to travel to England for one has never resulting in a women having time to rethink her decision and changing her mind?
@Patric Cooney: You seem to be of the belief that pregnant women cannot make good or bad decisions by themselves..Is it the way that you are like that”expert” that the “pro life” had representing at the Oireachtas meeting,who said that ‘women cannot make decisions because they’re very hormonal.’
Maybe just maybe,you should learn to trust pregnant women more…
@Patric Cooney: Yes maybe the numbers will go up but so what? It’s still up to those who are planning to have one, whether they want one or not, whatever their reasons are. You can be as against it as much as you want, I’m not saying you shouldn’t but when it’s finally made available here, you won’t have any right to stop anyone from going through with it. Your life, your body, your choice, your business.
@Dr MattyMcGrath OB-GYN: I’m saying it shouldn’t be a decision at all. I’m saying having to travel to England has given some women a chance to reflect and change their mind.
@Keith McDonagh: I’m pointing out that the amount will go up as your point is essentially ‘it’s already happening so we should just legalise it’ ignores the fact that this will occur. Prostitution occurs, drug taking occurs, theft occurs, but they would occur in greater amounts if we legalised them.
And finally the argument your body, your choice, your business can only possibly apply if you claim it’s not a child, which is the crux of the argument. If you think it’s a child then suddenly it’s not a victimless situation and you telling me ‘her body, her choice’ becomes a meaningless sound bite.
@Patric Cooney: Like someone looking to have an abortion, I’ve no problem with someone going into prostitution, drug taking or whatever else some people look to do, so long as nobody’s forced into them against their will & nobody else gets hurt so they can legalise them too if they want. Like I said, your life, your body, your choice, your business.
Making something legal doesn’t make it compulsary so you don’t have to do them if you don’t want one.
@Keith McDonagh: I noticed how you left out theft in your comment. I assume it’s because you believe theft is a victimless crime and the others may not be? And I’d definitely agree with you to an extent.
What it always boils down to is ‘is it a life?’ and if it is then it moves category from victimless crime to regular crime. You can say “her body, her choice” all you want but what you’re really saying is it isn’t a life. This is the conversation we need to be having and by constantly posting nice sounding platitudes like that you’re engaging in a battle of cheap words in order to win people over. So instead of having to follow the same path again and again before we boil down to the issue could you just tell me why a 12 week old fetus isn’t a life but a 40 week old is?
Did anyone think that this wouldn’t be the outcome?
Why 12 weeks? Why not more?
@Patric Cooney: Sure Patric, why not just before the baby pops out? The moral decline of our increasingly decadent society is depressing.
@Johnny Bellew: exactly. There is so much emotive language in this but nobody can explain to me why it’s not a life at 12 weeks but it is at 12 weeks and a day. Or maybe they’re claiming it is a life but simply don’t care.
@Patric Cooney: Sorry, I misunderstood your point. Yes, are they suggesting that at 12 weeks plus a second it means it is human life but before that it can be discarded in a waste bin?
@Johnny Bellew: i think Canada is like that
At least the Irish people who class themselves of being of good moral principles are at last given a chance to decide what they want.
It’s a sensitive topic. I have friends very pro-life while also having friends who are pro-choice. People who currently make the decision to go to the UK for a procedure in no means do it in an instant. There’s tons of reasons why be that economic, social or otherwise. But for those people, I don’t want to be the roadblock as to whether they can access the correct procedures and aftercare or not.
In countries where it is currently legal, the same opinions are shared among everyone, there’s pro-life and pro-choice. If you are pro-life, then stay true with your beliefs. If you fall pregnant for whatever reason (and hopefully not an unjust reason), then you dont avail of the service, it doesn’t even cross your mind. But should someone pro-choice decide they for whatever reason they want to avail of the service, I want them to be able to access it safely and with the correct aftercare. The arguing between both sides goes nowhere and we saw that at the time of the Same Sex Marriage Referendum. I will go pro choice for the reasons I have for it and I will make my voice heard for my opinion on election day. And I hope that Ireland can remain unified and respectful to all individuals should the time come for Pro-Choice to pass.
So, if a woman decides she wants to terminate her pregnancy- a scan will have to be done to determine that the pregnancy is under 12 weeks? How many pregnant women (who wish to remain pregnant) are denied access to ultra sounds at this stage of pregnancy because of lack of resources? Could see a lot of women heading to abortion clinics just to get a scan done & hopefully put their minds at rest & then ‘decide’ they won’t have an abortion after all…….
@Angela Lavin: I think most of us women have a good idea about our cycle and date, you find out your pregnant you don’t want to continue, instead of panicking trying to book flights book a hospital trying to get money for it, now you could have the procedure done within 8 weeks realistically, I’ve 3 kids which pretty much from the get go I knew I was pregnant with them, women know their bodies and the slightest change.
It’s really about time we’ve have a mature attitude to this subject can’t really expect our neighbors to be expected to deal with Our problems.
@Angela Lavin: They’re given a ‘choice’ whether or not to see the ultrasound because the visual truth can be an upsetting reality for some. They’re kind like that.
Just pretend it’s just a bunch of cells…its your ‘right’..Your ‘autonomous’ and equal to a man. No difference. Go forth and…
‘In cases of rape’ isn’t good enough as it puts the burden of proof onto women. So you could have it just as a box to tick, but then what’s the point?
If it’s in cases of rape then women will HR made testify before a tribunal and if she doesn’t name her rapist then she’ll be denied. Too much room for corruption and govt meddling there, (said tribunal could be given quotas for approved/denied) not good enough.
It has to be without restriction. Anyone who disagrees either hasn’t thought it through properly, doesn’t empathise or is a mysoginst.
have your say