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Hello, it’s Órla Ryan here. Welcome to today’s liveblog of the Oireachtas Eighth Amendment Committee.
The agenda for the meeting is as follows:
You can watch proceedings below:
iPhone/iPad users: click here. Streams provided by HEAnet.
While we wait for today’s proceedings to kick off, click here to read last week’s liveblog.
That hearing focused on mental health, and medical and international law.
We will be sending out an email round-up of what happened at the committee later today.
To get the weekly round-up, just enter your email in the box at the bottom of this article.
Dr Caitriona Henchion, Medical Director of the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) is now delivering her opening statement.
“I am a medical doctor and have specialised in reproductive health for over 20 years. I am registered with the Irish College of General Practitioners as a contraceptive tutor and a tutor in the provision of long-acting reversible contraception. I am a member of the European Society of Contraception and Reproductive Health and the Irish Association of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare Providers. I have been Medical Director of the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) since 2008.
“The IFPA is Ireland’s leading sexual health charity, and promotes the right of all people to sexual and reproductive health information and dedicated, confidential and affordable healthcare. We operate two not-for-profit medical clinics where we deliver services including contraception, post-abortion medical check-ups, cervical screenings and screenings for sexually transmitted infections. We also have ten centres nationwide where we provide free pregnancy counselling and post-abortion counselling services.
“My colleagues and I work in the context of an extremely restrictive legal framework – principally the Eighth amendment of the Constitution. We are also bound by two pieces of legislation that include criminal sanctions – the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act and the Abortion Information Act. Navigating these complex legal barriers while trying to maintain a caring clinical relationship is an immense challenge for us as healthcare providers.
“This presentation will address the socio-economic dimensions of crisis pregnancy and the impacts of current Irish law on women who experience an unintended pregnancy or a pregnancy that has become a crisis for other reasons,” Dr Henchion states.
Dr Henchion continues: “Unintended pregnancy is a frequent occurrence among women of reproductive age. While for some women this is a joyful and welcomed situation, for many it is a traumatic and devastating life event. Conversely, a wanted or planned pregnancy can become a crisis. An unintended pregnancy can mean the difference between a woman determining her own future or seeing her plans derailed and her aspirations frustrated.
In 2016, more than 3,000 women and girls gave Irish addresses at UK abortion clinics. These women were from all walks of life and from every county in Ireland. In addition—as Dr Abigail Aiken explained—women are increasingly accessing the abortion pill online.
“IFPA doctors’ and pregnancy counsellors’ clients include women who have made a decision to have an abortion for a wide range of reasons related to their physical and mental health and well-being and their ability to cope with a pregnancy. The majority of our clients who consider abortion do so because to continue an unintended pregnancy would be intolerable burden at this time in their life. Any meaningful change from the current legal situation must include these women.
Each woman weighs up her particular circumstances very carefully before deciding that she is unable to cope with a pregnancy. The factors a woman considers include her family situation; her income; her social support networks; her plans for education; her working conditions; her social and physical environments in terms of housing, relationships and so on.
“Many women in this situation already have children. They know what it means to be a mother; for them, the need to care for their children is the primary reason they decide not to continue with another pregnancy. A woman may be trapped in an abusive relationship, or fear that continuing the pregnancy will trap her and her children into a lifelong relationship with an abuser.
“Pregnancy counselling services, such as the IFPA, can support women through their decision-making and give them information about abortion services. Increasingly, our clients are women who experience multiple forms of disadvantage, which in turn, restrict access to abortion. Indeed the term “socio-economic” masks the reality that an unintended pregnancy can have devastating impacts on a woman’s life and that of her family.”
“Once a woman in Ireland has made the decision to have an abortion, she is faced with a range of further obstacles and difficulties. Cost will be a significant factor in the decision of almost every woman. She will need to consider the practical supports available to her. Can she organise childcare? Can she get a sick cert from her doctor? Can her partner get time off to accompany her? As a migrant woman, is she legally able to leave the country? Will she be able to navigate the immigration procedures? If she has a disability, how will this impact on her ability to access care?
“Not everyone lives in Dublin or Cork. Women who live at a distance from the major cities, particularly if they’re dependent on public transport, may have a very lengthy journey to an airport if they decide to travel to the UK for safe and legal abortion. Clearly, this constitutes a further significant barrier.
“For minors, of course, all of the above is immensely more complicated.
“Non-judgemental, non-directive counselling by a trained professional can be a huge support to a woman at this time. But it is no substitute for access to services. And we cannot ignore the fact that socio-economic factors frequently determine whether a woman ultimately travels for a legal abortion or resigns herself to the reality that her only option is an illegal abortion. Of course, for some women, the obstacles are insurmountable, and they are forced to continue the pregnancy against their wishes.”
Dr Henchion states: “When abortion is criminalised, as it is in Ireland, the burden of accessing care falls on the woman rather than the healthcare system. This is because whether a woman travels abroad for legal services or has an illegal abortion in Ireland, she must leave the mainstream healthcare service. Her experience will not meet international healthcare standards, such as those of the World Health Organization and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.
If a woman decides to travel for abortion, the Information Act prohibits her doctor from making a referral to services in another state—even if she does not speak English, or has a poor educational level, or has an underlying medical condition. Unlike any other medical treatment situation, the continuum of care is broken.
“The onus shifts to the patient to make contact with a doctor outside Ireland and to provide her medical history. She must make her way to a private medical facility in another country without the supports that apply in other situations where people travel for healthcare.
“A woman who is unable to travel—or for other reasons opts for illegal abortion—is faced with the challenge of trying to find a reliable online provider without medical assistance. And she also risks prosecution under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act if she self-induces abortion, as does anyone who assists her. In either scenario, an underlying medical condition that is easily managed in the context of legal abortion may become more risky.”
“Yet another way in which care falls below acceptable standards is lack of contraceptive provision. As Professor Arulkumaran explained (at a previous committee hearing), best practice in contexts where abortion is legal is that contraception is offered as part of integrated abortion care, at the initial presentation and the post-abortion consultation.
“However, for women in Ireland, this is not the case. This may be because her first presentation is not with a doctor, and so she does not have immediate access to contraceptive information. Online abortion pill providers are not in a position to provide ongoing contraception.
“In my practice in the IFPA, I frequently see women, who, having paid all the costs of going to a private clinic for an abortion—perhaps €600 for an abortion at 10 weeks, plus travel costs—cannot afford to pay for post-abortion contraception, particularly their preferred option of a long acting reversible method.
All of these failures of care are related to the disruption and fragmentation of care in the context of restrictive criminal abortion laws. We see this also in relation to post-abortion care. Women who can access abortion in their own country have a clear post-abortion care pathway with the same provider. In the event of complications, there are robust and timely pathways for referral, as recommended by the RCOG.
“This is not the case for women who travel from Ireland. While free post-abortion care is funded by the HSE and available to women from providers such as the IFPA, our experience is that only a small number of women avail of this.
“And, of course, women who access illegal abortions receive a still lower standard of care. In addition to the fragmented care pathway, they risk inadvertently accessing medication from an unreliable online source, which could be inactive, inadequate or potentially harmful. In my clinical experience, women accessing medication online tend to report problems late – fear of prosecution is a real deterrent to accessing healthcare for some of these women.
“A substantial number of women are accessing abortion in this manner. As Dr Aiken made clear, most women experience relief at the availability of this option. But that is not to say that it is acceptable healthcare. It is an unregulated and unsafe practice, the harms of which are not being reviewed or measured by any public body. No one is being held accountable for this. And the government cannot continue to ignore it,” she states.
“In considering the very real health concerns associated with the criminalisation of abortion, we must not forget the impact of stigma on women. Research by the American Psychological Association has found that feelings of stigma, perceived need for secrecy, exposure to anti-abortion picketing, and low perceived or anticipated social support for the abortion decision negatively impact women’s post-abortion psychological experiences. Every day IFPA counsellors hear from women about exactly these experiences.
“Women’s privacy and informed consent are invaded in ways that do not happen when services are locally available. Some women must make multiple disclosures of a private and personal health situation to, for example, community welfare officers, officials in the Department of Justice, staff in direct provision centres, social workers. Decisions made at this level can turn obstacles into barriers.
Women’s dignity is violated at every step. Their right to confidentiality is taken from them so many times, right up to the moment when they find themselves in taxis from airports to abortion clinics with women they don’t know.
“In conclusion, our legal system imposes a significant burden on women at a time of crisis and stress in their lives.
“It criminalises women and healthcare providers. All women are disadvantaged and discriminated against when they are forced to travel to another state to access abortion services, and even more so if they access illegal abortion.
The requirement to travel for abortion forces a reduced quality of care on women. Again, this is even more the case with illegal abortion.
“We have an urgent need for safe and legal abortion care in this country. This means equitable access—regardless of socio-economic status—to high-quality, affordable, local services in Ireland that respect women’s autonomy and decision-making. As a society, we need to take responsibility for ensuring that this becomes a reality in law and in healthcare practice,” Dr Henchion states.
Responding to Sinn Féin TD Jonathan O’Brien, Dr Henchion says IFPA counsellors have helped a number of women who dealt with rogue pregnancy agencies and, as a result, delayed their abortion.
Discussing the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act (PLDPA), she says it’s difficult for medical professionals to operate under current legislation.
Rather than have to deal with the “uncertainty” of the Irish system – such as a woman or girl having to be seen by a number of doctors before she is granted access to an abortion for mental health reasons - Dr Henchion says women who can afford it will travel to the UK.
Responding to Independents 4 Change TD Clare Daly, Dr Henchion says there is “a vast number of different situations” in which women and girls may need an abortion.
She says trying to ”set out a list of conditions” or get women to meet a list of criteria before allowing them access to an abortion “does not recognise the complexity of the issue in the first place”.
Dr Henchion says barriers to contraception include its cost and the lack of good quality sexual health education. “Prevention is definitely the best way to go,” she tells the committee.
Discussing current legislation, Dr Henchion asks why it includes a 14-year prison sentence connected to abortion if the goal isn’t to have a chilling effect on doctors.
“Overall, abortion is a very safe procedure,” she says, adding that “very few people” need further medical intervention afterwards.
Fianna Fáil TD Anne Rabbitte says there is a “vacuum” due to the lack of pro-life speakers coming before the committee, noting she would like to hear from more.
Chair Senator Catherine Noone tells her she hopes speakers from One Day More (a group suggested by Independent TD Mattie McGrath) will address the committee.
Rabbitte welcomes this, saying of pro-life groups and individuals who have refused to come before the committee: “They’re doing their own community a disservice.”
Noone welcomes her comments.
Replying to Deputy Rabbitte, Dr Henchion says there is a fear that some women aren’t presenting for medical help after having an abortion or taking abortion pills for fear of being reported to authorities.
Responding to Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick, IFPA CEO Niall Behan confirms that the organisation is a member of the International Planned Parenthood Federation, is connected to the Center for Reproductive Rights, and supports the Repeal the Eighth campaign.
“We’re very upfront about that, we’re very clear. I don’t see what the problem is,” Behan says.
He says women who attend IFPA clinics due to crisis pregnancy are told about all their options – including abortion and adoption.
Behan says he’s only aware of about two women who came to the IFPA seeking advice about a crisis pregnancy who decided to put their babies up for adoption.
Fitzpatrick is now raising concerns about IFPA counsellors previously telling women they could lie to their doctor about having an abortion, saying they had a miscarriage instead.
Dr Henchion says counsellors were led into giving specific answers while being secretly recorded, something she describes as “unethical”. She says the comments were taken out of context.
She says the Director of Public Prosecutions looked into the issue and found “no evidence of wrongdoing”. She says the law is the issue here, again citing the chilling effect of the Eighth Amendment.
Fitzpatrick says it’s “disgraceful” that women were told to lie to doctors, saying it could put their health at risk.
Senator Rónán Mullen says he understands why pro-life groups don’t want to come before the committee, accusing it and the chair Senator Catherine Noone of being biased.
Noone is not happy with this, criticising his “constant attack” on her role as chair. She asks him to be reasonable.
Mullen is also raising what Fitzpatrick did – that some IFPA counsellors told women they could lie to their doctor about having an abortion. He says counsellors also told women how to get abortion pills.
Behan says he’s not aware of a more committed groups than the IFPA in terms of women’s reproductive health.
“I really welcome this opportunity to set the record straight,” he states.
Behan says he worked with the HSE (which carried out an audit into the situation) and gardaí as part of the investigation and it was found “there was no wrongdoing whatsoever” on the part of the IFPA.
“Quite frankly the guards were embarrassed to be investigating this nonsense,” Behan says, claiming that “anti-abortion campaigners” were trying to smear the IFPA.
Mullen isn’t happy with this, saying Behan can’t speak on behalf of gardaí. Mattie McGrath echoes this sentiment.
“This is the type of stuff that the IFPA has been putting up with since the 1970s,” Behan says, telling Mullen: “It doesn’t really get you anywhere.”
Mullen says he didn’t get an answer to any of his questions.
When Behan again reiterates that no wrongdoing was found after the gardaí and the HSE both looked into the situation, Mullen says his response is “appalling” and like something Richard Nixon would say.
Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy, in her own words “playing Devil’s advocate”, notes that some people claim women use abortion as a method of family planning. She says she herself does not believe this.
Dr Henchion says women – very often with their partners – give a lot of thought to whether or not they should have an abortion. She cites one case where a woman “very regretfully” decided to have an abortion as she already had two children with special needs and felt she would be unable to care for them properly if she had a third child.
In terms of ordering abortion pills online, she says there are “a number of risks”, including that the medication “is not what it is supposed to be” and doesn’t actually work.
She says some women need medical help after taking abortion pills but often delay or completely avoid going to a doctor because “they’re fearful of getting into trouble”.
Responding to Fine Gael TD Hildegarde Naughton, Dr Henchion says sexual health education varies widely depending on the school, adding that many vulnerable people don’t receive any if they leave school early.
Behan says the IFPA has also helped some women or girls who had a concealed pregnancy – that is where they hid their pregnancy for a prolonged period.
Fine Gael TD Kate O’Connell is now bringing up the prohibitive cost of contraception and issues with sourcing emergency contraception, particularly at the weekend.
Discussing domestic violence, O’Connell says some women “may be in a relationship that has them essentially trapped where they are forced to become parents against their will”.
Recalling Peter Fitzpatrick’s comments about the lack of babies available to adopt in Ireland, O’Connell says: “Are we going into a Handmaid’s Tale situation here? … That’s up there with the most shocking thing I’ve heard today. I hope no one forces me into that situation, good luck to ye if ye do.”
Independent Senator Lynn Ruane says it feels like the IFPA speakers have been on trial at certain points today, noting they didn’t sell abortion to her when she sought advice as a pregnant teenager.
“It’s very hard to separate the personal from the political when I sit in this room,” she states.
Dr Henchion says coming up with socio-economic grounds for abortion is not the way to go, noting women and girls make decisions based on what is best for them – not always choosing termination.
Replying to Fine Gael TD Bernard Durkan, Behan says about half of the women who come to the IFPA for counselling haven’t yet decided what to do about a crisis pregnancy.
Behan says there is “a misconception” that most of the IFPA’s clients are teenagers, saying about 75% are aged 24-34 years. He says “very few” rape survivors seek help from them, but some do.
Also replying to Durkan, Dr Henchion says women have told them IFPA counselling has been a “really, really big support at a time when they didn’t feel supported” – regardless of what decision they made about a crisis pregnancy.
Dr Henchion says women and girls not getting the opportunity to sit down and discuss their options with a medical professional due to current legisaltion can lead to problems.
Behan says legislation doesn’t stop women in Ireland having abortions, it just makes it more difficult.
Speaking about her own abortion in the 1980s, Solidarity–PBP TD Bríd Smith notes how it was illegal for the IFPA to give her any information, even a phone number. She thanks them for the support they gave her at that time, saying it was an even darker situation for women dealing with crisis pregnancies than now.
Smith then raises the lack of follow-up care women and girls receive after having an abortion abroad, stating that the current legislation leaves women “open to severe consequences”.
Dr Henchion says contraception and sexual health education need to be properly funded and promoted in order to help stem crisis pregnancies. She says the risks to a woman’s life from taking abortion pills bought online are very rare, but that there are other concerns including lack of follow-up care.
Speaking about women in Direct Provision, Dr Henchion says they have even more obstacles to overcome if they need an abortion, including getting a travel document that has to be stamped in a garda station.
She says they then need to contact the Department of Justice, as well as gather enough money to have an abortion – despite having no income.
On another note, she says the IFPA is unable to call clinics in the UK on behalf of women and girls who are deaf and therefore unable to make a phone call.
Fianna Fáil Senator Ned O’Sullivan says he’s “not sure where I stand yet” on the issue, but is disappointed that some agencies who’ve been invited are not attending the committee’s hearings.
He adds that the committee doesn’t rubber-stamp things, as some people have suggested.
Replying to O’Sullivan, Dr Henchion says the IFPA is happy for husbands or partners of women seeking help due to a crisis pregnancy to be involved in the process.
She says the organisation also advises that parents are there to support girls dealing with a crisis pregnancy, if possible. She says the more support for the woman or girl, the better.
Sinn Féin Senator Paul Gavan starts by saying that, despite disagreeing with Fine Gael on most topics, he wants to praise Noone’s chairing skills in the face of other committee members trying to “undermine” her.
Replying to issues raised by Gavan, Dr Henchion says getting women to meet certain criteria before they can have an abortion will leave many women behind.
“Irish women are having abortions every day and we need to actually provide those services in Ireland,” Henchion says, noting that if this happens the services can be “properly monitored and overseen” to make sure they are of a high standard.
Independent TD Mattie McGrath says Irish Aid and the IFPA help run a sexual health programme in Bolivia. He asks if this programme promotes abortion.
Behan says it does not. Noone reminds McGrath the committee is there to look into the Citizens’ Assembly’s recommendations about the Eighth Amendment, not the situation in Bolivia.
McGrath accuses people of laughing, saying this is unacceptable.
Recalling a quote he made earlier about gardaí being “embarrassed” to have to look into IFPA counsellors telling women they could lie to their doctors about having an abortion, Behan says he was expressing his opinion.
McGrath says his claim is an “outrageous statement”.
Senator Jerry Buttimer starts by reiterating his support for Noone. He is also critical of groups who were invited to appear before the committee but decided to not do so and air their views in the media instead.
Mullen doesn’t agree with this and there’s back and forth between the pair before Noone steps in to restore order.
Replying to Buttimer, Dr Henchion says the vast majority of abortions happen due to socio-economic reasons.
Behan adds that women nowadays are coming to the IFPA much more informed than in previous years, having researched their options beforehand.
He says the stigma surrounding a crisis pregnancy has lessened but is still there. He says women today are more likely to have confided in a number of people about the pregnancy.
Noone has thanked today’s speakers and the committee is now taking a 20-minute break before its second session.
Janice Donlon of the HSE Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme is now delivering her opening statement:
“The HSE Sexual Health & Crisis Pregnancy Programme (the Programme) is a national programme situated within the Health and Wellbeing Division of the Health Service Executive.
“The Programme is mandated by a statutory instrument to reduce the number of crisis pregnancies and to provide support to those who have a crisis pregnancy.
Legislation defines crisis pregnancy as “a pregnancy which is neither planned nor desired by the woman concerned and which represents a personal crisis for her”.
“The Programme understands this definition to also include the experiences of those women for whom a planned or desired pregnancy develops into a crisis over time due to a change in circumstances.
“A pregnancy may be considered a crisis for a number of reasons. Crisis pregnancy can be related to a perceived inability to cope with a child at that time; being too young or too old; not being in a financial position to support a child; the potential impact that becoming a parent at that point might have on their education, training or employment.
“Research finds that approximately one-third of women who have been pregnant and one-fifth of men who have experienced a pregnancy in their lifetime have experienced a crisis pregnancy.”
Donlon continues: “Counselling for a woman is about creating space to allow her to discuss and reflect on her crisis pregnancy and to support her through the decision making process.
“While many women experiencing a crisis pregnancy resolve the crisis for themselves, or have support from family and friends, research finds that they see a clear role for a counsellor. The importance of a supportive listener and non-judgemental support allows them to consider how the pregnancy impacts on their lives.
“It is the counsellor’s role to provide space and time to facilitate women to work through difficult conflicts in a non-judgemental and non-directive manner…
“If, after appropriate counselling on all options, a woman makes the decision to terminate her pregnancy she should be given as much information as is necessary.
Information about abortion services in other countries may be made available under certain conditions. The law on the subject was passed in 1995 and is usually known as the Abortion Information Act. Its full title is Regulation of Information (Services outside the State for Termination of Pregnancies) Act 1995. The Act sets out how information about legal abortion services outside Ireland may be given to individuals or groups in Ireland.
“Information on how to access abortion services including names and addresses of clinics can be provided as can information on the types of procedure that may be available to her. Crisis pregnancy counsellors are not medically trained and any specific medical questions are referred to the woman’s GP.
“All information should be provided in a manner that is accurate, unbiased, impartial and in accordance with the law. This is necessary to allow the woman to make an informed decision as to the most appropriate course of action for her to follow. Information may be given in different formats including written material which the client can take home with her.”
“The numbers of women attending crisis pregnancy counselling services has fallen significantly in the last number of years. In 2010 4,662 individual clients attended for crisis pregnancy counselling, by 2016 that number has fallen to 2,570. The majority of women attending crisis pregnancy counselling services are between the ages of 25-34.
“It is recognised that in the 20 years since the commencement of the Abortion Information Act there have been many developments in technology including access to the internet. Many women are now bypassing crisis pregnancy counselling services and accessing information on abortion services directly from the internet.
“While the numbers attending services are decreasing, counselling services report that those attending services are presenting with more complex and multiple issues.
“The challenge for the Programme and the counselling services is to ensure that women in most need of crisis pregnancy services and supports feel that their services are relevant to them and will meet their needs.
“Many of the counselling services funded by the Programme also support women and their partners through the diagnosis of a fatal fetal abnormality or life limiting condition. Additional training and support has been provided to these services to ensure they are able to respond to the needs of this client group. Counselling services have forged links with maternity services and have the expertise and the capacity to support women and their partners through this difficult time,” she says.
Donlon continues: “Some organisations that advertise as crisis pregnancy counselling services have a hidden agenda. The service they provide is designed to influence the choice a woman makes and to pressure a woman into doing something she may not want to do.
“Once these agencies have been contacted by a client they can seek to delay the counselling process and, in certain cases, show clients inappropriate images or use other tactics in an effort to influence their decision.
“These organisations are not State-funded and women are advised to find out as much information as possible about a pregnancy service before they make an appointment. All HSE Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme funded services are advertised on www.positiveoptions.ie and will provide non-directive, non-judgemental counselling.
“Post-abortion counselling is provided by the same funded services which provide crisis pregnancy counselling, details of these post abortion counselling providers are available on www.abortionaftercare.ie.
Information on the availability of free post abortion counselling in Ireland is also provided by abortion clinics in the UK and the Netherlands. The Programme links with abortion providers to ensure the information is made available to women who have travelled from Ireland.
“Post-abortion psychological support allows a woman a safe space in which to explore and articulate her feelings, whatever they may be, towards the decision made and perhaps the experience of the abortion itself.
“A client may require a number of counselling sessions post abortion and the counsellor is available to support the woman depending on her individual needs. A woman may attend for post-abortion counselling shortly after her abortion or she may attend at a later stage if issues emerge related to other life events etc.
“The number of women who access post abortion counselling has remained steady over the last number of years and in 2016 1,377 clients were seen for post abortion counselling.”
She states: “A post-abortion medical check-up is available for women to ensure they have fully recovered from their procedure. A post-abortion check-up normally involves a blood-pressure check and an examination of their abdomen. The doctor will:
“The numbers attending these services is low, in 2016, 442 women attended medical checkups funded by the Programme. Women may attend their GP on their return if required, or depending on the type of procedure they have undergone may not require a post abortion medical check-up (for example early medical abortion).”
Donlon tells the committee: “As a core function of its work, the Programme monitors behavioural trends relating to its mandates, using a range of tools and indicators including general population surveys and statistics.
“Research informs us that crisis pregnancies happen to women and their partners from different ages, socioeconomic backgrounds and with different relationship statuses.
“The majority are married, engaged or in steady relationships when the crisis pregnancy occurs. The most common reasons why the pregnancy is seen as a crisis is because it wasn’t planned or the woman and her partner consider themselves too young. The average age at which a crisis pregnancy occurs is stable at 24 years for women and 25 years for men.
Parenting is by far the most common outcome for women who experience a crisis pregnancy. A survey of the general population found that when asked about their most recent crisis pregnancy 73% of women reported that they chose to parent.
“In the same general population survey, 2% of those asked about their most recent crisis pregnancy reported that they chose adoption. Traditionally in Ireland adoption was a common response for women experiencing a crisis pregnancy; however, the number of women placing their babies for adoption has decreased significantly in recent decades.
“24% of women in the same general population survey who reported experience of a crisis pregnancy reported that they chose to have an abortion following their most recent crisis pregnancy.”
Speaking about women travelling for abortion, Donlon says: “It is well documented that many women travel from Ireland to other countries to access legal abortion services. The Programme analyses data collated by the Department of Health in the UK and the Ministry of Health in the Netherlands on the number of women travelling to those countries from Ireland for an abortion on an annual basis.
In the majority of cases, women travelling from Ireland for an abortion travel to England. In 2016, 3,265 women gave Irish addresses at UK abortion services representing a rate of 3.2 per 1,000 women. There has been a gradual decline in women availing of abortion services in the UK since 2001. In that year there were 6,673 abortions to women from Ireland in UK abortion clinics representing a rate of 7.5 per 1000 women.
“The Ministry of Health in the Netherlands has collated data on women providing Irish addresses in Dutch abortion clinics since 2010. Prior to 2010, the Programme linked directly with the main abortion service providers in the Netherlands to establish the number of women providing Irish addresses there.
“In 2015, 34 women were recorded to have provided Irish addresses in abortion clinics in the Netherlands. These figures have significantly declined since their peak in 2006 when the number was 461. The Netherlands has emerged as the only other jurisdiction to which women from Ireland have been travelling for abortion procedures in any significant numbers.”
Donlon continues: “The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 defines the circumstances within which abortion in Ireland can be legally performed. The total number of abortions carried out in accordance with this act in 2016 was 25. There were 26 in each of the years 2014 and 2015. 2014 was the first year in which data was reported.”
Moving on to abortion pills, she says they are “designed to induce an abortion for a woman who is less than nine weeks pregnant”.
“Abortion pills are used by abortion providers in medically supervised clinics in countries where abortion is legal. These are referred to as medical abortions. The Programme is aware that some women are accessing abortion pills in Ireland from international online providers. In order to try to understand the incidence of this, the Programme set up a reporting relationship with the Health Products Regulatory Authority in relation to the number of abortion pills seized by customs officers annually.
“The Programme has provided training and support to all funded services on this emerging issue. All services have developed protocols in this area and training manuals and online resources have been updated with relevant information.
The reasons women may be accessing abortion pills online are cost and access. For women who have made the decision to terminate a pregnancy, the cost associated with travelling from Ireland to another country for a medically supervised termination is high. Research finds that higher earning women are more likely to travel to other countries for abortions over their lower earning counterparts.
“Until recently it was difficult to make an assessment of the level to which this practice is occurring as limited information was available. However recently published research suggests that more women are contacting online providers of abortion pills annually and becoming more aware about the availability of these drugs online.
“As you have been informed by a previous witness, Dr Abigail Aiken, her study found that over the period January 2010 to December 2016 the number of women from Ireland contacting an online provider of abortion pills tripled. In 2010 there were 548 online consultations completed by women from the island of Ireland – in 2016, the number had increased to 1,748.
“Another research article published by the same authors in 2017, reports on the experiences of women following taking the abortion pill in Ireland. The study reports on 1,000 women who underwent self-sourced medical abortion from the online service.
“The study reports that while the vast majority of women did not need to contact medical services following taking the abortion pill at home, approximately one in ten (9.3%) reported to the online provider that they were experiencing a symptom for which they were advised to seek medical advice and the vast majority of these women sought medical advice as advised.
“The Programme has identified one other main provider of the abortion pill and has sought similar information from this provider for a more accurate assessment of the trend.
“If a woman takes an abortion pill and has prolonged heavy bleeding, bad pain, fainting, or other complications, we strongly encourage that she attends an emergency department or GP straight away. Or if a woman is concerned about her health following taking an abortion pill, we would encourage her to attend a free post-abortion medical check-up funded by the HSE. A list of services is available on www.abortionaftercare.ie.”
Replying to Senator Paul Gavan, Donlon says the HSE provides non-directive, non-judgemental counselling. She says this allows women to explore all their options in a safe environment.
She says the HSE works with a number of organisations that support women who decide to keep or adopt the baby.
Donlon says research shows that the number of women who take up post-abortion counselling is low internationally and that Ireland follows this trend.
She says some women attend counselling years after they’ve had an abortion, while other women feel they don’t need it at all.
Donlon says rogue crisis pregnancy agencies target women and try to delay or stop them having an abortion. She says the HSE provides women with all their options in a non-directive way.
Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick asks what the HSE does to promote adoption as an alternative to abortion.
Donlon says the organisation presents women with all their options and will support them if they choose to adopt the baby.
“It is the counsellor’s role to support the client through her decision-making process,” she says, noting that many women attend a number of sessions before making the decision that is best for them.
Earlier Donlon said research shows that about 2% of women dealing with a crisis pregnancy choose adoption.
She tells Fitzpatrick she’s not sure why this number has decreased over the years. Senator Lynn Ruane tells him it’s because forced adoption isn’t as thing anymore.
Deputy Catherine Murphy starts by asking for clarification that the HSE Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme is neutral. Donlon confirms that it is. Murphy says it’s important to point this out.
Replying to Murphy, Donlon says comparing crisis pregnancy services in Ireland to other countries is difficult due to the “quite unique” situation here.
“It’s a difficult area for the woman and it’s a difficult area for the counsellor,” Donlon says, adding that the primary concern is making sure women aren’t too afraid to seek medical help if they need it.
Donlon says some women use Parcel Motel to receive abortion pills they’ve bought online. Murphy notes that having to do this likely adds to the woman’s stress.
Replying to Senator Rónán Mullen, Donlon says the Abortion Information Act lays out that counselling must be done in a non-directive and non-judgemental way.
Mullen wants to know if Donlon thinks counsellors should offer women the option of seeing an ultrasound before they make a decision about an abortion, noting this may lead to women deciding to keep the baby.
Donlon says when a woman or girl comes to a counsellor seeking help and advice she needs time to consider all her options. Donlon again reiterates that HSE counsellors don’t behave in a directive or judgemental way.
Sinn Féin TD Louise O’Reilly asks if the fact so few women seek post-abortion counselling indicates they are happy with their decision. Donlon says the HSE wants to make women aware that these services are there, but said she doesn’t expect an increase in the number of women attending.
O’Reilly says she welcomes moves by Health Minister Simon Harris to clamp down on rogue crisis pregnancy agencies.
Donlon says these agencies target women through Google ads, but the HSE “tries to outbid them in terms of search words” so positiveoptions.ie comes up first.
Donlon says such agencies often change their names or locations, making them harder to crack down on. She says some women are “traumatised” by their experience with rogue agencies and often want to move on from the experience rather than make a complaint.
Deputy Bríd Smith asks why the HSE is funding organisations such as Cura or Anew, noting they won’t give women information about abortion.
Donlon says, due to their ethos, these organisation won’t give out this information but will discuss the topic. She says this is clearly set out on their websites so a woman can be aware of this beforehand.
Donlon says ultimately the choice of which service she goes to is up to the woman, but notes that geography may play a role in this. She says an advice phone line is being considered to help in this regard.
Replying to Deputy Kate O’Connell, Helen Deely, head of the HSE Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme, says research shows that about 18% of people not in receipt of the medical card find the cost of contraception prohibitive.
O’Connell says she views this as high.
O’Connell says that earlier today she spoke to an Irish woman who had an abortion in Liverpool. She says the woman told her a HSE leaflet was in the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (Bpas) clinic she attended.
Donlon says the HSE sends leaflets to clinics in the UK and the Netherlands so that Irish women who attend these services are aware of the post-abortion counselling they can receive if needed when they come home.
Senator Lynn Ruane is asking what support women who are homeless or dealing with an addiction issue receive with they present with a crisis pregnancy.
She says some women are “petrified” to be judged as mothers and afraid the children they already have will be taken away from them.
Donlon says women presenting to counsellors with addiction issues will be supported and referred on for additional support if needed.
She notes that some women, particularly asylum seekers, are limited in the services they can access, including abortion, due to financial constraints.
Deputy Clare Daly describes the situation in Ireland in relation to abortion as “utterly sickening hypocrisy” – noting that women can receive advice and information about abortion as well as aftercare, but not undergo the procedure itself here.
Donlon says the Abortion Information Act is outdated, given how women can access abortion pills online. She says women are often “left alone” with a list of contact numbers for abortion clinics abroad.
Donlon says people with additional needs, such as women who are deaf, or financial difficulties are presented with more challenges.
Responding to Deputy Mattie McGrath, Donlon says a HSE audit was carried out into allegations that IFPA counsellors told women they could lie to their doctors about having an abortion.
She says it was a “robust audit” that involved “in-depth interviews” with staff members. She says all of the audit’s recommendations, which dealt with training and procedural issues, were implemented.
Deely adds that the DPP decided there was no case to answer following an investigation.
Donlon tells McGrath counsellors provide women with evidence-based information. She says clients who have additional health issues, including mental health issues, should be referred on to their GP.
When asked by McGrath about the use of terms such as “fatal foetal abnormality” or “life-limiting condition”, Donlon says medical staff use the language that clients are comfortable with.
Chair Senator Catherine Noone has thanked today’s witnesses and adjourned the meeting. The committee will meet in public session again at 1.30pm next Wednesday.
We will be sending out an email round-up of what happened at the committee later today. To get the weekly round-up, just enter your email in the box at the bottom of this article.
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The kangerooo court speaks ,all life is sacred ,all life should be embraced ,the rights of the unborn child must be heard ,children are our future ,those we cannot see ,those we cannot hear, need a voice .the pro abortion lobby refuses them the very same rights which they exercise .no to abortion and no to changing the eighth .
@Anthony Gallagher: an unborn child is a contradictory expression. There is no child until it is born.
@Fiona deFreyne: What about 60 seconds before its born?
@Anthony Gallagher: your wrong ,like a lot of crap you come out with on here ,you know the price of everything and the value of nothing
@Fiona deFreyne: So stillborn baby is an inaccurate term?
Chad In the womb it is either a human embryo or a human foetus. STILLBORN.Born is the clue,,,
@Chris Martin – why do they take it’s fetal heartbeat…
@Anthony Gallagher: would you ever grow up and get out of those nappys ,or maybe you like being mothered
@Anthony Gallagher: you seem to be talking to yourself, bu5 strangely you actually make a valid point in your last post. Is it a “bittie” thing you have, irrespective you are clearly a tit, man.
@Anthony Gallagher: stop being so hard on yourself.
@Chris Martin: At 60 seconds before, it’s on the verge of exiting the vaginal canal. Do you think so little of your fellow women and girls that you’d believe a woman would literally go through 9 months of a pregnancy and decide after hours of labour, when the head is engaged and on the verge of evacuation, she’d demand an abortion? What Youth Defence style batsh!ttery are you involved in?
@Anthony Gallagher: Would that be the 3000 children who are homeless right now?
@Anthony Gallagher: Or the 17,000 thousand dying every week around the world?? Precious when you don’t have to do anything about it but sit on a high horse.
@Fiona deFreyne: I’ve never heard a pregnant woman celebrating her foetus. A child when wanted, dehumanised to a foetus when you want rid of “it”.
@DaisyChainsaw Chris thinks quite little of quite a few people. In the article about ssm being voted for in Australia she seems to relate the passing of ssm to people marrying their children and was questioning why one was wrong and the other isn’t in the minds of those who voted for it. She seems to think that’s where society is heading next. So I really wouldn’t put much weight in Chris’ opinion. Anyone who can go from two non related consenting adults marrying to someone marrying their daughter or son has got some serious issues.
@Anthony Gallagher: anyone who gets an abortion because of money should have any other children they have taking off them,unbelievable.
@Anthony Gallagher: it is a foetus approaching birth or in the course of birth.
@Anthony Gallagher: abortion may be the only way for the rest of the family to survive. An abortion may be an acceptable price to pay so as to avoid penury and homelessness.
Misanthrope ; “I’ve never heard a pregnant woman celebrating her foetus. A child when wanted, dehumanised to a foetus when you want rid of “it”.”
How can you ‘dehumanise’ something by calling it’s correct medical terminology ? Only in anti choice land…
@Fiona deFreyne: tell that to An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar who in an interview to an American newspaper this summer said that as a medical doctor who has studied ultrasounds of the womb during pregnancy he is in no doubt that what is in in the womb is a ‘child’ and referred to the baby as a ‘child in the womb’ throughout the interview. Leave the science Fiona to the experts!
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: so when you were, or will be, pregnant you will refer to it as a parasite and have no human regard for it until delivery?
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: yes An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar prefers to use the term, child or baby in the womb. As Minister for Social Protection in November 2016 he questioned the use of the word ‘foetus’ when referring to human life before birth. He said that while he might ask a pregnant friend if she knew the sex of the baby he would never dream of asking ‘what sex the foetus was’! Nor would anyone else except maybe some of the bloggers contributing here.
@Dell: Ah Dell..still feeling sore about that? Poor thing #hugz
@Misanthrope – We will refer it to whatever way we want to .You won’t know anything about it..
@Fiona deFreyne: “The only way for the rest of the family to survive”? Where do you live, Syria?
@DaisyChainsaw: Fiona said..there is no child until its born. Born as in fully delivered. So 60 seconds before its fully delivered is it still just a foetus? And if its head is the only thing out..would you consider it the head of a child and the lower body of a foetus? I didnt mention abortion I merely questioned her terminology.
@Anthony Gallagher: birth is the process which produces a baby. A baby is born. Unborn is not a baby. An unborn baby is a nonsensical notion, a lame attempt at definition by negative attribute.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: so it will depend on whether you want it. Interesting and principled way of ascribing status to a pregnancy.
@Misanthrope – you will never know.Get over it.
@Chris Martin: until it emerges fully from the womb a fetus remains unborn. You cannot equate its rights with that of a born person.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Listen to An Taoiseach Dr Varadkar who has said while Minister for Social Protection ‘a foetus is a medical word’ going on to explain ‘it’s like talking of your glossus instead of your tongue. ‘ An Taoiseach has said a pregnant woman would be offended to refer to her baby as a foetus. Women throughout pregnancy are concerned about the welfare of their baby but I don’t expect you Ronan to understand that.
@Fiona deFreyne: Not for An Taoiseach Dr Varadkar who has said that a pregnant women would feel offended if her baby was referred to as a foetus. To quote him ‘a foetus is a medical word. It’s like talking of your glossus instead of your tongue.’ Do you do that Fiona? I thought not.
Those who can afford to have children are fortunate.
The circumstances and lives of many people may make a family impossible and unaffordable.
Real life has a way of trumping religious based dogma, even religious dogma embodied in a Constitution.
@Fiona deFreyne: not terminating human beings in the womb as a form.of contraception is hardly a sign of religious zealotry. Atheist and pro life.
@Misanthrope: form of contraception? Any stats on that?
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/contraception
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/abortion
“not terminating human beings in the womb as a form of contraception”
A) Human beings procure abortions
B) Human embryo/foetus removed from womb
C) Contraception prevents pregnancies
D) Abortion ends them
@Misanthrope: so many new posters claiming to be atheist and pro life, but strangely they are all hiding behind anonymity, odd that.
@Paul Fahey: Russians?
@Misanthrope: An Irish abortion in the UK costs around €1000. Are you so hateful towards women that you believe we would rather spend a grand on a trip to the UK that doesn’t even involve shoe shopping than a few euros on contraception?
@Fiona deFreyne: Money can never equate with life If Adoption agencies need to pay natural parents for children to survive then society must be genourous instead of being forced to pay for killings
@Éamonn ÓGallchobhair: killings? Do you mean termination of a foetus? This not in my back yard approach is ridiculous in this day and age. Four thousand women giving Irish addresses have terminations in the UK each year. Irish women are having terminations and it’s time we stopped exporting the issue.
@Paul Fahey: do you think anybody can be pro life and atheist?
@Fiona deFreyne: If finance is such a concern should the same solution be applied to homeless people?
@Monty donotno: Not russians, They just feel that saying they are religious will harm the “valid” points they are trying to make.
@Tom Burke ; how’s the craic,Tom.Were you away on some anti choice course?Been awhile kiddo..
@Paul Fahey: read my comment on priests needing councilling, unless you believe I planted that to up my athiest credentials.
@Tom Burke: genuinely good to see you back. Yes, I do, but it is indeed very odd how so many have only recently appeared, all with new accounts and recently started Facebook or Twitter accounts too.r
@Tom Burke: and they all identify themselves as Atheist and pro life behind anonymity, again, odd that.
@Deborah Behan: 38% of abortions in England and Wales are repeat abortions “abortion statistics England and Wales”
@Brian Madden: we are not exporting anything. We have our laws other countries have theirs. People are free to travel and are subject to the laws of the state they are in. Nobody forces women abroad, it’s a free choice.
Misanthrope – you wouldn’t mind breaking down that 38% for us
can you tell us ;
how many were carried out on women that are after having multiple diagnosis of FFA
how many were carried out on women that were raped when they were in their teens,and then later on in their 30′s they had a diagnosis of FFA
that information would be great…thanks..
@Fiona deFreyne: homeless people are real peole although often nit treated as such.
A foetus is just that, a foetus. Real living human beings should and must take absolute priority.
We live in a tough society where homelessness is a very real threat to the lives of many.
@Paul Fahey: so why do you think somebody who isn’t religious might be anti abortion?
Why do you think they might form that view?
Also re Facebook or Twitter.
I’ll explain my position.
I don’t use Twitter. I try to limit social media in my life. I won’t use my Facebook because it’s not relevant to my comments.
This is where we make our comments.
I’m not really worried if anybody thinks I’m genuine.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: given that we are talking about hundreds of thousands of abortions I doubt many are the rare cases of FFA
@Fiona deFreyne: real living humans you say.
So is a foetus real and is it human?
@Tom Burke: did you actually read my post? I never said you were not genuine and I certainly know you are not an atheist as you have historically made your Catholicism abundantly clear. I also welcomed you back, which is clearly indicative of you having not just opened a new account.
are you sure darlin’ ? Those stats go back how far ?
@Paul Fahey: independent comments section discontinued…you can get meds for paranoia
@Fiona deFreyne: No I mean killings & not in any backyard Our society needs to grow up and meet all tough challenges in life & not go along with killing everthing that gets in our way
We have this debate at a time when there are pregant women who are homeless, when there are parents living in emergency accommodation, squeezed into one room, with a few children, when there are families of 2 parents and 3 children living in 2 bedroom apartments, when families are facing evictions from rented accommodation, when letting agents are candidly saying the client landlord does not want tenants with children, when the response of some landlords, if they hear that a tenant is pregant, is a prompt notice to quit, where lone parents on low incomes can’t get social housing, when there is insufficient housing to serve existing and future demographic demand, when zero hours and casual employment render families unaffordable, when crèche and chold care facilities afre unaffordable to many and when the spectre of homelessness beckons to many.
@Fiona deFreyne: whats your point? are you trying to say thats a reason to get rid of a child?
@Fiona deFreyne:
So is that your moral argument for destroying Human life?
@Fiona deFreyne: just keep the children that you have and don’t add to the impossible pressure by adding more pressure. In the case of an unintended pregnancy , an abortion may be necessary for socio-economic reasons.
Remy, not destroying human life, just preventing another human life.
@Fiona deFreyne: are u saying you think it would be alright to have an abortion if you are not finacialy secure
@Christy Pop: When you have no choice but to have an abortion that is not a choice.
@Fiona deFreyne: how about resolving the housing crisis in preference to targeting unborn children.
@Remy: why don’t u just go and have ur children and live ur life why is everyone so consumed in everyone else’s life… get on with your own and let everyone make their own choices it’s that simple it’s none of your business what any woman does with her body
@Misanthrope – “unborn children” .No such medical term..Human embryo or a human foetus is what is inside of the woman’s womb…
@Donnchadh Kurland: It’s the law, simple. Currently, it is an offence to abort an unborn child without a valid reason in this country.
@Christy Pop: i can imagine there are a lot of women who would choose abortion because of financial circumstances. It is a real worry for people. It should be available as an option.
@Misanthrope: “unborn Children” is incorrect terminology . A fetus is not the same as a born sentient human being.
@Fiona deFreyne:
That’s some verbal diarrhea.
Abortion procedures destroy, it’s not prevention.
@Fiona deFreyne: this is were we seperate on this topic fiona. I do not think socioecomic reasons are good enough to have an abortion imo
@Remy – abortion procedures destroy ? You ok Rems ? Lets talk procedures that are happening in the 1st trimester in the UK,shall we ?
The stats will show that the majority of 1st trimester abortions are done via the abortion pills. …Discuss..
And another youtube vids from you…bless
@Mondo – don’t procure one.Sorted.
mark dunne are you for real ,i hope you dont have kids, unbelievable
@Fiona deFreyne: in that instance contraception is necessary for socio economic reasons. Two parties using contraception and not sleeping together in the five or so most fertile days of the month have a chance of pregnancy in the order of 100,000/1
@Mark Dunne: The unborn achieves sentience very early in pregnancy.
@Fiona deFreyne: if a woman or family are facing the threat of destitution or homelessness, it is a compelling reason for an abortion.
@Fiona deFreyne: Scientists and embryologists since the second half of the 20th century are agreed that the life of another human being begins at conception. The fertilised ovum has only to grow develop and mature. This growth and development does not stop at viability, birth, puberty or indeed at any point during the human life cycle. Growth and development stops only at death. Life is a continuum from conception to the moment of death.
@Mark Dunne: according to medical doctor An Taoiseach Varadkar it is a ‘baby in the womb’. Quoting Dr Varadkar ‘ foetus is a medical word. It’s like talking of your glossus instead of your tongue or your digits instead of your fingers.’
@Donnchadh Kurland:
Exactly why we have laws and a society that abides by them.
So let’s say if a woman was to plant a knife into the chest of a week old baby, killing it, wouldn’t she be severely punished by society, face trial and punished by the way of prison?
So in a twisted way your telling me that if the life of that baby is destroyed by abortion a number of weeks or months before birth, it’s somehow a Human right, a Womans right and none of societies business? GTFO
@Mark Dunne:
OK, So if you end up in a coma by they way of an accident you are no longer sentient, does that give anyone the right to terminate you?
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8:
Medication abortion up to ten weeks and Aspiration Abortion(suction) up to 12 weeks, both destroy Human life. I’m grand Robin, now over to you, 2nd and 3rd trimester, c’mon don’t be shy.
@Remy: but the problem is there is no child on the planet to be stabbed in the chest ‘its’ UNBORN and it’s the woman’s body.. it’s her decision to do what she wants albeit it shouldn’t be used as a means of contraception and such rules should be in place but should also be decided by the women of our society… it’s your decision to keep your pregnancy full length and birth a child some women might not feel that option and there should be medical places for them to go safely and without prejudice from anyone… u know your own morals just as Kate and Mary and Sinead do (made up names) so u don’t need to push them into someone else
@Donnchadh Kurland: Sorry it’s not the woman’s body. Only rarely does abortion damage the woman’s body although even legal abortion is not without risk to the woman. What is certain is that it is the baby growing inside the womb of its mother which is always killed during abortion.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Are you seriously suggesting that abortion pills do not kill human life and are you seriously suggesting that women take them for any other purpose than to kill the human being developing inside their womb?
@Mark Dunne: a foetus is sentient from 8 weeks gestation. Why are in utero medical procedures designed to help the health of the baby in utero,carried out while the baby is anaesthetised?
@Remy: different circumstances. Somebody in a coma means they have been born. I believe there is a distinct difference between a fetus and a born person.
@Remy -so no videos from you of a woman swallowing the abortion pills …hahaha..c’mon Rems..over 110,000 abortions are done this way…surely you can find one :)
And,do you have a problem with doctors removing the remains of the foetus from the woman’s womb @ is that it ? Wow! You would like the woman to be poisoned ? Nasty..
Kay – abortion pills are used to end the pregnancy..
@Misanthrope: that’s incorrect.. A fetus has no awareness of itself. It doesn’t even know its alive..
None of the pro-life posters here are even giving a minutes thought as to why women would abort they are just championing that the fetus is born and then they don’t care about it again.
@Deborah Behan: It’s not surprising. They prioritise the fetus over the living, breathing, conscious woman.
@Deborah Behan: None of the pro-choice posters here are even giving a minutes thought as to why women should not abort they are just championing the womans rights and they don’t care about the unborn.
@Makronline: We leave that choice up to the individual woman.
@Markonline: I will absolutely champion a sentient, living woman or girl’s rights over a blastocyte. Would you object if your rights were reduced to that of your sperm?
@Deborah Behan: people are saying its alright to have abortion because they havent enough money,unbelievable,materilistick world
@DaisyChainsaw: I have no doubts what your stance is on the rights of the unborn. I would object if my sperms rights were increased to that of the unborn.
@Deborah Behan: more accurately when there is not enough money to feed or house a family and where giving birth to another child could cause disaster.
@DaisyChainsaw: Your biological knowledge is slightly flawed. Sperm is not and never will be a human being. Neither is an unfertilised egg.
@Christy Pop: I was a 20 year old single mother and let me tell you it’s no picnic and you get very little help from the state. I was lucky I could live with my parents I know other women who weren’t that lucky. Stuck in poverty and social welfare cycle. Then what if you get pregnant again? Why should a woman have to sacrifice her life and the rest of us tax payers pay just because someone somewhere who is not affected can sleep easy? I don’t think I could have an abortion but would I make that decision for another woman? No way.
@Markonline: I didn’t abort.
let nature take its course, life is beutiful
@Christy Pop: nature takes it’s course when it is removed from the woman’s womb..
david if you were to ask any one would you rather be dead or alive ,i am sure they would say alive
thats not natures way
@Christy Pop: “that’s not natures way” Reminds me of what the Kalahari bushwomen do when times are extremely tough.They will look after the strongest child and leave the weakest behind to die…true story,pops.
@Christy Pop: That story reminds me that they could do with a better adoption agency in Botswana.
@Christy Pop: Grow up and get out of those nappys
@Christy Pop: have you got children? would you get rid of any of them?
@Christy Pop: so “let nature take its course” is your response to denying a women medical care.
We must remember that if you ever need heart surgery…
@Christy Pop:
Why do antis ask such stupid questions?
@Christy Pop: Nature is responsible for ending more pregnancies. Miscarriages are entirely natural.
@Barry Somers: good point there barry why dont they have a public vote everytime someone needs a vital operation let the public vote if they get it or not that would soon change peoples minds bet they wouldnt like to be told what to do or have every person in the country in charge of their bodies just like they think they can take charge of womans
@Deirdre Meredith: Imagine the furore if a man or child were told that if they operated today, they’d have a 90% chance of survival, but under legislation, they have to wait until their life, as opposed to their health, is under threat. No surgery until the chance of death tips over to 51% If it’s not acceptable for men and children, why is it okay for women?
@Christy Pop: let nature take its course! So if you get sick, very sick, don’t seek medical attention. Let nature take its course!! And God forgive anyone who wears a condom, what’s that all about, just let nature take its course. You sound like a mad man. Or a religious freak.
@ProLife=ProSuffering: what is the ‘it’ you are referring to? Scientists and medical doctors like An Taoiseach know that the ‘ it’ is a developing baby. Why do pro-abortionists avoid ever referring to the human life growing so rapidly in the womb? In their heart of hearts they know that if they did not believe it was a baby or without natural death or (abortion i.e. Killing by another) will become another human being just like themselves then there would be no need for abortion.
@ProLife=ProSuffering: or when its heart is stopped by lethal injection
I don’t agree with abortion for non-medical reasons. I’m non-religious so it’s definitely not a religious thing, I consider it more of a human thing. Or maybe a ‘personal thing’ is a better way of putting it. That said, when the referendum comes around I will vote whichever way I feel gives the pregnant woman the most choice. While I feel my thoughts and feelings on abortion are perfectly valid, I’m not so egotistical as to believe they are any more valid than anyone elses. Allowing others to choose what is best for themselves is the only answer I can see.
@Tommy Roche: this would be perfectly ok if it were not for the fact that there is another life involved other than those of the two parents. The UK this year ‘is celebrating’ 50 years of legal abortion by remembering the 8m people who have not been allowed to be born as a result of their abortion laws. Do we want similar statistics here? Whether we like it or not this is a societal issue. The life of the third person is a matter for all of us and unfortunately is very often not even acknowledged especially by those so determined to end that life.
@Tommy Roche: so it’s not a matter of ethics or principle then? You either believe that the unborn is human or it isn’t. If it is “terminating” a pregnancy is murder, if it isn’t it’s merely another medical procedure. Make up your mind.
@Tommy Roche: I have made up my mind. I have no right to tell others what to do with their own bodies, regardless of my own thoughts on this issue.
@Misanthrope, abortion is not murder. You are legally and factually incorrect in asserting that it is.
A foetus does not have legal personality or human status unless or until it is born.
@Tommy Roche: your not the deepest thinker are you lol.
@Misanthrope: if it were not another human being there would be no need for abortion. Abortion has only one purpose killing the human life growing in the womb
@Kay Kehoe: so kay do the women or men in this country tell you what to do with your life or your body so why should you decide to dictate to other people what they do with theirs im a mother to 5 kids but i would never preach to anyone my views every women in this country has a right to decide what they want to do and it is nobody elses buisness but theirs how does it affect your life what they do so what you dont agree dont judge others unless you want to be judged yourself
@Deirdre Meredith: nobody is telling you what to do with your body. Pro life advocates are talking about the babies body
I don’t get why people get so exercised by the loss of a “life” that never happened, yet there are 7+ billion people on the planet, many of them suffering and we don’t really care about them.
Why aren’t the pro life lobby calling for a ban on cigarette sales to pregnant women or for pregnant drug users to be forced into rehab while pregnant? Surely if you truly want to protect the unborn you’ll extend the protection to cover all probable threats.
@Misanthrope: its great the way people are shouting from the rooftops about womem murdering their children through abortion why are these same people not shouting from the rooftops about our goverment killing our children where are they then and what i mean by that is our children killing themselves because the mental health services are not there when children with cancer are denied funding for treatment abroad where children have to wait years on operations where are all these pro lifers then
@Deirdre Meredith: it is another pro abortionist like the pro life advocates care for nothing else other than the abortion issue. Total and utter baseless garbage
why not let the children get to 18yrs old and they can decide if they would like to live or die?
@Christy Pop: once born , they are human beings with human rights.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/human-being
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unborn
@Fiona deFreyne: the unborn has rights in this country, those pesky rights you are trying to remove
@Misanthrope – the “unborn” has been given more rights than any born person has been given,which is to use another persons organs for it’s ongoing survival ,without that other persons ongoing permission..,,..Thankfully,she can go to the UK where that “unborn” won’t be given those rights…
@Misanthrope – the “unborn” has been given more rights than any born person has been given,which is to use another persons organs for it’s ongoing survival ,without that other persons ongoing permission..,,..Thankfully,she can go to the UK where that “unborn” won’t be given those rights…
@Ronan: Incorrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom
@Markonline – the “unborn” are not given the same rights of protection as the woman.Please show me the protection that an embryo is given…thanks..
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Please show me where “the “unborn” has been given more rights than any born person has been given,which is to use another persons organs for it’s ongoing survival ,without that other persons ongoing permission..” is written in irish law…thanks…
@Christy Pop: Why don’t you volunteer to become a surrogate womb?
@Markonline- so you do admit that the embryo in our country is given more rights than the embryo in the UK..good lad..
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8
Your quote below is a bit weird, are you unhappy with the nature of human reproduction? Also, could you name which of the ‘other person’s’ organs the ‘unborn’ uses for survival? would it be all of them or some?
“@Misanthrope – the “unborn” has been given more rights than any born person has been given,which is to use another persons organs for it’s ongoing survival ,without that other persons ongoing permission..,,..Thankfully,she can go to the UK where that “unborn” won’t be given those rights…”
@Christy Pop: I’ve heard 3 year olds come up with better arguments.. There really seems to be a severe lack of intelligence on the “pro life” side. Thankfully it’s a tiny percentage.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: so you consider the unborn a parasitic entity, hijacking the poor innocent woman’s body. You make pregnancy sound like an episode of aliens. Funny how pregnant women and their partners don’t paint such a picture when the child is wanted.
Hi Nick – i’m sick of men like you wanting to control another persons life..
please show me where a born person can use another persons organs to sustain their life without the other persons permission thanks..
You didn’t know that the womb is an organ..seriously ? wow!
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: if pregnancy is such a horrific vista for you have a hysterectomy
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: I said you were incorrect…good lad..
@Misanthrobe – a pregnancy that is ‘wanted’ is a wonderful occasion for the woman/partner.I should know as I’m a parent to a few ‘planned’ children..And if my partner ever became pregnant again,then it would be an unplanned one.What we would do would be entirely up to us and not some whiney lad/lass on the journal.ie..And as for me getting a hysterectomy,you can shove that idea right up your own ho1e ..
She has a right to go to the UK to end that unwanted pregnancy.She has a right to protect herself against something that can cause her severe physical (death) or mental health issues…
@Misanthrope, a hysterectomy is unnecessarily drastic.
@Fiona deFreyne: less drastic than “terminating” an unborn child
“less drastic than terminating an unborn child” – one terminates a pregnancy…An “unborn child” is something that cannot be terminated..A born child can be terminated..So nice of me to be telling you all of this..
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Do you resent or deplore the fact that you in common with the rest of man and womankind since the beginning of time used your mother’s womb in order to grow and develop before birth so that you could become the wonderful person you are today? Like all the contributors to this blog you enjoyed the constitutional protection for the unborn afforded by the Eighth Amendment. How could anyone refuse the same protection we have enjoyed to our future generations.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Scientists would not agree with you that ‘human life growing and developing all the time both before and after birth is ‘something’. If it were ‘something’ there would be no need for abortion (killing) and no debate on this.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: termination of pregnancy is a euphemism used by those who refuse to acknowledge publicly the existence of unborn human life. Termination of pregnancy is only undertaken in order to terminate the human life growing and developing rapidly within the womb. One question for you is if you did not believe that this human life is another human being would there be any need to abort (kill) the human life.
Antichoice groups don’t want to appear before the committee because they know they’ll be exposed. They don’t want decent sex ed in schools, they don’t want decent access to contraception and the MAP and they don’t want women to be able to choose what’s right for them. They’re religious, anti woman zealots who don’t care about the health of women or girls, only that they should be saving themselves for sex with their husband for procreation only.
@DaisyChainsaw: Stop making up stories.
@DaisyChainsaw: thank you for telling the actual truth.
“Mullen wants to know if Donlon thinks counsellors should offer women the option of seeing an ultrasound before they make a decision about an abortion, noting this may lead to women deciding to keep the baby.”
It’s a Bay-bee .Rónán
By the way,studies have shown that any woman that is determined to end her pregnancy,that showing her an ultrasound doesn’t stop her..
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: What would you really see at 9 week’s gestation anyway? A magical homunculus waving at you?
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Would hearing the baby’s heart beat have any effect on the mother? If women were not so certain that what they were expecting was a baby there would be no need for abortion. What is truly horrific is that abortion is the killing of that human life.
@KayKehie, a foetus has human potential, it has human characteristics but it does not become a human being or acquire legal personality unless or until it is born alive.
Atheists will frequently say we don’t need religion to have a moral compass and to feel compassion.
I completely agree.
Why then are the pro life people mostly labelled as religious?
If you were to watch an abortion you would witness something that most people would find repugnant. Most would have that feeling regardless of religion.
@Tom Burke: why do you spend so much of your time watching those videos ?Is it the way that you have nothing better to be doing with your time ?
Did you know that out of the 190,000 terminations that were carried out in 2016,over 110,000 were done via the abortion pills..Why not watch those videos if the others upset you ? No need to thank me..
@Tom Burke: Have you watched galbladder surgery? How about having an appendix removed, or a testicle? Here’s testicle surgery for you to watch instead of some fake foetus fetish porn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaFIEAnjgtE
@Tom Burke: Yes, Dr Nathanson, the obstetrician who started the campaign for legal abortion on demand within the U.S and known as the Abortion King throughout the US was completely turned against abortion after watching an ultrasound recording of an abortion carried out in one of his clinics just two years after the Roe v- Wade federal case. He became one of the most vocal opponents of abortion in the U.S. admitting that the campaign for unrestricted abortion which he had masterminded had used fabricated polls and inflated statistics of illegal abortions in order to deceive the judiciary and the people before the 1973 Roe-v-Wade case.
@RónanMullsHisFaith#8: Perhaps he wishes to educate himself as to what abortion entails. I would recommend that you and all others with a vote do likewise before the referendum. We should at least be informed voters.
@Tom Burke: the origin, genesis and campaign for the 8th Amendment is Roman Catholic dogma pushed by the Roman Catholic Church. It may be that a few atheists support the 8th Amendment does not detract from its religious character and origin.
This committee is a biased farce.
The Irish people will not be duped by this rigged charade.
Save the 8th.
@Emma Murphy: the Irish people will not be duped by the likes of the Matty McGrath’s and the Rónán Mullens..,.poor little darlins’ have been havin’ so many hissy fits between them..
@Emma Murphy: Irish people won’t be convinced by the lies from the pro life side. That I know for sure
@Rob Cahill: what lies would they be Rob?
@Tom Burke: the ‘lies’ are apparently choice is wrong when choice belongs to the individual.
@Emma Murphy: Eamon’s out with his socks on again!
@Rob Cahill: what lies? At least pro-life acknowledge that there is a baby whose life is at stake. They also know and acknowledge that the only purpose of abortion is to end, by killing, human life. There would be no need for abortion if there was no rapidly growing human life in the womb which has to be killed off. They don’t say what seems to be true that non pro-lifers seem to be babyphobic.
@kay Kehoe, a foetus is not a baby and a baby is not a foetus. They are mutually exclusive terms.
@Fiona deFreyne: I and countless others,scientists and An Taoiseach, disagree. Foetus is only a medical word for the baby pre-birth. Have you ever heard any expectant mother refer to her baby in the womb as a foetus? A foetus makes it sound as if it’s not a rapidly growing and developing other human life which suits your pro-abortion argument but is so wrong.
I am getting sick of these euphemisms by the left”we can do what we want with our body”. This isn’t a woman getting a tattoo on her body, cut the euphemisms this is killing a growing baby inside the mother’s womb. The Pro-Life side believe that the first and most fundamental right is the right to life and that no woman nor man on the soil of our fair Ireland may kill their baby. For if we do not have the right to live then we have NOTHING!
@cormacpaddies: what if it’s not your baby because you were rape???? Or you’re too young or too old to be a mother ? What about contraception or the morning after pill, are you also against them?
@cormacpaddies: “no woman nor man on the soil of our fair Ireland may kill their baby. ” Yeah. They can fackoff in their thousands each year to the UK to do it because the 13th amendment lets them and anti choice hypocrites can claim “the soil of our fair Ireland” (begorrah) is abortion free!
@cormacpaddies: yet you want to force these women into raring these children???
@Deborah Behan: it is not the fault or crime of the child that it’s mother was raped. The child of every rapist is as much a victim as the mother and too often pays the supreme price of its own life. I know a rape victim who was lucky enough to be given up by her mother at birth for adoption. Years later when this girl was happily married and had her own children her birth mother sought her out. Fortunately they were reunited and mother and daughter have become very close with the birth mother being ever so grateful that she had allowed her daughter to be born and that she now can enjoy spending time with her daughter and grandchildren who would never have been born had she succumbed to pressure to abort her daughter because of how she had been conceived.
@Kay Kehoe, your error is because you start from the false assumption that a foetus is a baby. A foetus is not a baby.
@Fiona deFreyne: Dr Varadkar An Taoiseach would not agree. He has said that to speak of a mother-to-be’s baby as a foetus would be to offend her. To quote him ‘a foetus is a medical word. It’s like talking of your glossus instead of your tongue or your digits instead of your fingers’.
@Kay Kehoe: as we’ve know of late , Leo knows not what he says and is not to be trusted.
@cormacpaddies: Rape cases only take up a tiny percentage of abortion cases(1-2percent). Lets just imagine I’m okay with abortion with rape(which I’m not) are you okay with a woman killing her baby if she want’s a boy instead of a girl? are you okay with her killing her baby if if it’s assumed he will have a disability? are you okay with a woman killing her baby when it’s heart is already beating inside her womb?
I I believe in the right to life for if we do not have the right to live then we have nothing!
Ronan Mullens thinks counsellors should be required to show a women a scan of her baby in a bid to convince her to keep her baby, and he critisis them in the “non directive” support they provide because he feels they do not provide enough information on what a women needs to do to put her baby up for adoption. Does he not have the capacity to see what is wrong with that statement. Like really Ronan shoe on the other foot for just one second and see what is wrong with that statement. And he calls the committee biased.
@Bee Johnson: I cannot see how providing a woman seeking information on her options with information about adoption can be reprehensible. Unless of course you don’t recognise any option other than abortion. In which case ‘option’ is the wrong word. Option means more than one choice. Family planning agencies who do not provide information about adoption are not providing full information about all options. They are selling women short if not exploring all options available to women who come to them.
@Kay Kehoe, they point out the adoption option if a pregnant woman wishes to go full term.
@Fiona deFreyne: if agencies are supposed to be providing information on options plural then it is their duty to provide information on all options that are available otherwise they are selling the poor woman seeking information from the ‘experts’ short.
@Kay Kehoe: that is my point the guest speaker repeatedly said that they provide information for all options available to women in a non directive manner as this is good counselling practice.
He is saying counsellors should be required to try to convince a woman to keep her baby or put it up for adoption. But in the same breath accuse these counsellors of trying to push as many women as possible into having abortions by withholding information on adoption.
Do you see the hypocrisy now?
@Kay Kehoe: respectfully she repeated several times that they provide information on all options in a non directive manner and if a woman chooses adoption they will provide her with further information and refer her to tusla.
A vote for infanticide, sickening. What next post birth abortions?
Murders travel from all over Ireland to commit their crimes. Just saying.
These pro abortion woman on here are probably phycopaths. Pro murder.
As usual we are only hearing from one side in this rigged debate.
Whatever way they dress it up, an abortion is ending a babies heartbeat and life.
There should be a lot more support services for crisis pregnancy and counselling.
As usual only hearing from one side in this rigged debate.
Whatever way they dress it up, an abortion is still ending a baby’s heartbeat and life. There should be more investment in crisis pregnant services and counselling.
have your say