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TDS FROM NUMEROUS political parties have raised concerns in the Dáil over the last two days that the government is trying to “ram” through a vote on Ireland joining the permanent structured cooperation arrangement (Pesco).
Last week, TDs and senators voiced their concerns about Ireland signing up to the European defence pact after Cabinet gave the go-ahead for Ireland to take part in the EU plan.
The plan has raised concerns here that it could undermine Ireland’s policy of neutrality.
Some argue Pesco is the first step towards an EU army, with its proposals including inclusion in the European medical command, a network of logistic hubs across Europe and a creation of a European crisis response centre, as well as the joint training of military officers.
However, as per the Defence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, for Ireland to participate in Pesco, a government decision and Dáil approval is required.
The Taoiseach has maintained that signing up to the deal will not challenge Ireland’s neutrality and will not mean Ireland joining a European army.
A heated debated on the issue kicked off two days ago with news the government wants a vote on the issue this week.
A number of TDs said there has not been sufficient debate on the issue and pointed out that the public are unaware of what such a plan could mean for Ireland’s future.
Wexford TD Mick Wallace said he was astonished at the video Europe is using to promote Pesco and was even more shocked that a small country like Ireland would consider signing up to it.
He said the promotional video opens with the line: “In a troubled world, citizens want the EU to offer them more protection.”
Wallace said this is followed by images of fighter jets, drones, Apache helicopters, armed troops running off military transport helicopters, aircraft carriers and warships, “all to the tune of the kind of aspirational and emotive modern classical one would get on an ad for a new Mercedes”.
He said there is no detail as to what exactly it will mean for those who sign up, especially in terms of actual warfare.
The Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said he wants Ireland to be involved, stating that it is time that Europe stops relying on the US for its defence.
My view is that a Europe that is worth building is a Europe that is worth defending. For a very long time, all of Europe has relied on the United States to provide for its defence. There are real threats to European security and, over time, rather than relying on the United States to defend Europe and pay for European defence, Europe should provide and pay for its own defence and not be dependent on the United States in the way it has been since 1945.
That is what Pesco and European security and defence co-operation are all about. It is Europe starting to take responsibility for and control over its own defence, not relying on the United States in the way it has done until now.
Ireland has a long-standing tradition of non-alignment and neutrality, he said, adding it is something his government will defend. He said Pesco will be different for Ireland as we can join in an opt-in, opt-out basis.
“We will only opt in to certain programmes and certain parts of Pesco that we want to be involved in, for example, counter-terrorism, given all European countries need to work together to defeat terrorism, and cyber-security and peacekeeping are further examples of areas we are going to opt into, “said Varadkar, adding:
I can assure the Deputy we are not going to be buying aircraft carriers, we are not going to be buying fighter jets and we are not going to be shopping around military trade fairs for any of these things, as that is not in our interest.
Solidarity-PBP’s Richard Boyd Barrett took particular issue with the vote being rushed through the House.
“This is a move to ram through a vote to move towards joining a European Union army while quadrupling military spending,” he said on Tuesday.
“It is deeply cynical. I wonder if the quid pro quo for European support on Brexit negotiations is that we sell out our military neutrality and ramp up military expenditure,” he asked.
Boyd Barrett said he had read the brief on Pesco and said he thought is was “absolutely outrageous” that Cabinet agreed to it when there has been no public consultation.
Rushing a vote
The Dun Laoghaire TD was not the only deputy who had concerns about a vote being rushed through the House.
Independents 4 Change Clare Daly said the government’s move was a “departure beyond anything I have seen”. She said she was assured some weeks ago there would be adequate time to discuss the matter.
“I object to it in the strongest possible terms,” she said.
Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Labour’s Brendan Howlin called for the issue to be discussed at the Oireachtas Defence Committee.
Green Party leader Eamon Ryan said the matter should go to committee so that the Defence Forces and the Army Chief of Staff could be invited to make submissions.
“I believe there should be adequate time to debate it in the chamber,” the Taoiseach replied.
Boyd Barrett replied by stating that the issue is as big an issue as Brexit. “I don’t think so,” said the Taoiseach.
The Lisbon Treaty
The Green Party, the Social Democrats and Fianna Fáil all voiced concerns about there not being sufficient time to discuss the issue.
Eamon Ryan said he understands the government intends to sign up to the agreement at the European Council meeting on 11 December.
“Any matter that impinges on defence is a matter of great sensitivity for the members of this House and, more importantly, for the people of this country,” said Brendan Howlin,
If the defeat of the first Lisbon Treaty referendum has taught us anything, he said, it is proper debate on such measures is needed.
Howlin said there is no rush to sign up to the proposals this side of Christmas.
“I understand there is a request to do so, but we may choose to postpone our signing up until after the event. We must have a proper debate, with experts invited in and cross-examined,” he said.
Varadkar said Pesco “is not a new issue” adding that it had not been “dreamt up” in the past couple of months.
“This is in the Lisbon treaty. The treaty was ratified by the Irish people in 2009. There has been ample opportunity for a debate since then. There has been plenty of debate about this matter since the Lisbon treaty was ratified in 2009. There is a time for debate and there is a time for a decision. I do not believe further debate would change anybody’s mind, nor would it allay fears based on any conspiracy theories,” he said.
Boyd Barrett made the point that the public knows nothing about the issues at play.
The Taoiseach replied: “It is the Deputy’s responsibility to inform the public. He had eight years.”
Minister of State at the Department of Defence Paul Kehoe said there are “rumours” being circulated that Pesco will threaten Ireland’s neutrality.
“That could not be further from the truth. Sweden and Austria, which have neutrality policies similar to ours, have already signed up to Pesco,” he said.
The Business Committee reconvened yesterday to sort out the disagreement as to whether a vote on Pesco will proceed this week and whether it will be referred to an Oireachtas committee for further scrutiny.
A motion put down by Boyd Barrett to delay the vote on Pesco until 2018 was defeated by the Dáil yesterday by 73 votes to 49.
However, a government motion agreed to refer the issue to the Oireachtas Defence Committee.
Minister Kehoe said Pesco was not being cooked up by the government in “smoke-filled room” stating that not one politician has come to him in the last few months to voice their concerns about the plan.
He said Ireland plans to partake in six of the 16 projects under Pesco which include being involved in the EU centre for training excellence, the deployment of disaster relief, underwater surveillance schemes, the upgrade of marine surveillance and cyberthreat projects.
The minister said it had nothing to do with an EU army and said that debate was had during the Lisbon Treaty referendum. He said it was important that Ireland sign up before 11 December as it would ensure Ireland would be able to “play its part in some projects” and only those who sign-up will have a say on the progression of Pesco.
A two-hour Dáil debate is due to be held today on the issue before the matter goes to a vote.
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Customers???? What have IW to sell to anyone.
@Dave Doyle:
Delivery and maintenance of the water system
@Nick Allen: Maintenance of water infrastructure should always be a state’s own responsibility. No company should ever be allowed profit from this.
@Joe Phillips:
If a third party company could maintain the water system more cost effectively than the government while still making a profit would you object to that?
The problem with national assets is that they without question the Irish people / government needs to maintain ownership and the assets should never be allowed to be sold to the highest bidder. However, the government is not skilled and and has demonstrated superbly well that it cannot mange these assets correctly. We need to find a solution where we still own it but outsource the management to specialist professionals. For example, TransDev manager the LUAS and by and large deliver a good service while making a profit yet the state still owns the LUAS. We need this type of public / private partnership which is a genuine partnership and not just a cover to sell of the assets or allow a private organisation to try an maximise profit from it.
@Nick Allen: ‘Delivery and maintenance of the water system’ IS and WAS already paid for.
Anything extra should be taken the same way or that should also be refunded.
We are sick and tired for paying twice and three times for everything with still the underlying issues being left unfixed.
@eastsmer:
You need to move on from that idea. There is a finite pot of money to pay for our services to be delivered and we need to pay more into the pot. It doesn’t matter what u think u have paid for nor what you have paid for we still need money to pay for our water system.
@Nick Allen: = Neo liberal lemon
@Nick Allen: IW are no more than a glorified billing company. They do nothing to maintain a system or deliver one drop of water to anyone.
This “customer” stupidity is no more than a euphemism used in an attempt to change who people think about IW.
The DSP are trying the same stupidity on people.
@Nick Allen:
Except Irish Water has already cost the taxpayer billions and has provided absolutely nothing in return.
@Nick Allen:
Yes we need to pay for our water system
But Irish Water needs to be closed.
It is a billing company set up to privatise a natural resource,.
It has absolutely no legitimacy and not a penny should ever be paid to it.
@eastsmer: The issues are very fixed now. The Water Services Bill 2017 has seen to that.
Water will be privatised. It will go the way of the ESB.
We have been royally shafted by FG/FF.
The bill was disguised as a means to pay the “refund”.
The detail, which has been kept very quite, has laid the ground for privatisation.
@Colin Morris:
Where did I say or suggest that IW was the right organisation to deliver this?
@Setrakian:
Do you know what an internet troll is? How is my comment trolling? It is simply expressing my view which is directly related to the article and the comments I replied to.
Its funny how people resort to name calling and factual inaccuracies when they don’t know enough about the subject matter nor have the ability to debate it on its merits. And it is you who offers me sympathy, thanks for that but I do feel guilty as it is you who is more deserving of sympathy
@Colin Morris: Wicklow County Council take care of the maintenance of the water system here as they always did. Only now it’s under contract to Irish Water. Every other city and county council must be the same. The only difference is there is now a third party call centre you call and they in turn call the council…… How this is more cost effective to pay over a billion euro to set up a quango to collect cash is beyond me.
@Nick Allen: you are on the journal throughout the day – every day fully supporting everything your rotten government is responsible for including the Irish Water scam. Apologies for the late reply – I’ve been busy working. You are a troll & going by most comments in response to your ignorant posts – a complete numpty. Hope that clarifies for you Nicky.
@Nick: You are flogging a dead rat mate, it’s already paid for.
They sent the bills to the correct address I’m sure they can send the refund cheque to it too
@Michelle_Herbert:
You are making the assumption that nobody has changed their address since they initially provide it to IW. Do you really think this is likely?
@Nick Allen: I bet you paid them extra.
@Justin Barrett:
Why? because I highlighted that some people have changed address over the last couple of years. Interesting logic there.Ah, well, if I did pay extra then no doubt I will get an even bigger refund, I wonder what I will treat myself to this xmas with the new found windfall.
@Michelle_Herbert: I got my cheque on Monday. It’s only if your address changes that you need to inform IW.
@Michelle_Herbert: they need to refund back through the same channels that payment was made. In general if people pay electronically, then their refund should return to their account, electronically.
People with no bank accounts cannot cash these cheques. Those people paid in cash in post offices. They should get refunded by the same method.
@Father Hody Commody:
They only need to refund back to the original payment method if the original payment method was a card payment
@Michelle_Herbert: There is also a percentage of us that had no choice and had to pay IW or the sale of our house could not be completed (the government made it law in January 2016) obviously we are no longer at that address so IW has to be informed.
@Father Hody Commody: you’re an idiot. Not true dumb fcuk
Irish Water? Never heard of it.
And once this money has been repaid I assume that Irish Water will be closed in its entirety and all its staff made redundant.
it is a truly toxic company that served no other purpose than as a billing company set up to privatise a natural resource.
Irish people (who already pay for water through taxation) need to pay for water – but not a penny must EVER be paid to Irish Water.
By the way any correspondence from Irish Water must be automatically binned.
@Colin Morris: The issuing of cheques to people that paid cash enables this ‘company’ to obtain bank account details where the cheques are lodged. That’s why they issue cheques.
@Father Hody Commody: They only need your address. No one needs bank account details to issue a cheque.
@Father Hody Commody: Its actually the other way around. To issue by cheque you do not need the bank account details, to do an electronic funds transfer then you do need the account details.
As a matter of interest, in your conspiracy theory what it the benefit to Irish water to have your bank account details? Unless you give them explicit permission to withdraw funds then they cannot do so.
@Father Hody Commody: you haven’t a clue. Back to junior infants with ya
Geez and here,s me thinking a customer is someone who willingly does business with someone else.
@Derek Poutch: Exactly. They had no business acquiring our details to begin with.
Is this the real Irish water or that fake one, sounds like those scams.
I recently moved house and phoned IW to change my details. They were unbelievably unhelpful demanding crazy information and making it as hard as possible to change my details. I sensed it was a deliberate attempt to not refund me
Be very careful of phishing.
The chancers tried to get my PPS number.
I’m sure they’d have their details if they were supposed to pay and hadn’t.
Would have made a nice Christmas bonus..had I been a big enough mug to pay in the first place.
Hearing a lot of spin about this, yet as someone who paid charge and has a water meter at my gate i haven’t heard a peep out of IW. Are they doing anything other than issuing press releases i wonder????
@eimsley:
You can go onto their website and enter your account number and WPRN number and it will tell you the size of your refund and the date they expect to post it to you
@Nick Allen: think he means if they have done any actual infrastructure maintenance that isn’t just reactionary and more preventative. Bugger all in 3-4 Years I think at the cost of billions.
They would know where you live if they were after money .
No and they never will.
Happy to say I got my cheque in the post and bought 4 Superdraw tickets with it
Got my cheque this week, donating one third each to FG, the parish church and to the pro life campaign. :)
They have mine even though I never gave it to them. They still haven’t responded to my query as to where they got my details.
People 1 irish water 0
Some other right here
I paid with Post Office how do i get my refund
have your say