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THIS WEEK MARKED a momentous occasion in Irish social history, with the Dáil passing legislation to enshrine the Supreme Court ruling of the X Case into law.
The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 will be enacted once the Seanad and President have signed off on it in the coming fortnight. After 21 years of debate on the wider issue, months of discussions on the makeup of this particular Act and hours of speeches by politicians, the Dáil passed the Bill just after midnight on Thursday.
The lengthy discourse on abortion rights and restrictions in this country may have fudged the various elements of the Bill for some. TheJournal.ie examines the law, explaining exactly what it means for Ireland.
1. Why are we using a Supreme Court ruling?
The X Case, which involved a 14-year-old girl who had become pregnant as a result of rape, was a seminal case which interpreted Article 40.3.3 in the Constitution.
The ruling of the Supreme Court binds lower courts (and, indeed, itself). Four of the five judges sitting in the 1992 hearing interpreted Article 40.3.3 in a way that a lawful abortion could be granted if there is a real and substantial risk to life of the mother.
As the risk in this case was because of a threat of suicide, suicide ideation as grounds for a legal termination was deemed constitutional.
2. How will this law impact the situation of a woman who wants an abortion but her life is not at risk?
A woman who wishes to terminate her pregnancy – but whose life is not at risk due to physical illness or suicide ideation – will not be allowed to obtain an abortion in Ireland as a result of this law.
3. How does the legislation impact on Irish women’s right to travel?
An Irish citizen will still be allowed to travel to other jurisdictions, such as the UK and Netherlands, to avail of abortion services.
A referendum in November 1992 granted this freedom to travel outside the State. It also allowed for information to be made available about such services.
The 2013 Act will state:
Nothing in this Act shall operate to limit the freedom to travel between the State and another state, or to obtain or make available in the State, in accordance with conditions for the time being laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another State.
and
Nothing in this Act shall operate to restrict any person from travelling to another state on the ground that his or her intended conduct there would, if it occurred in the State, constitute an offence under section 22.
4. So, can a woman be prosecuted if she undergoes an abortion in the UK?
No. An Irish woman is perfectly entitled to travel outside the State for an abortion – regardless of the reason behind her decision. She cannot be stopped entering or exiting the country and she cannot be prosecuted.
Last year, about 4,000 girls and women (at least 21 from each county) made the trip to England or Wales. Another handful probably travelled to the Netherlands.
5. If a woman is raped, can she receive a lawful abortion in Ireland?
No. There are no provisions for this (or incest) in the Act.
Because Article 40.3.3 equates the life of the mother and the life of the unborn, there is no constitutional possibility to allow for a termination in such circumstances.
She may, however, travel abroad. In 2011, 90 females reported becoming pregnant as a result of rape. Seventeen underwent terminations. Forty were under the age of 18, nine of whom terminated the pregnancy.
6. But the X Case was about a girl who was pregnant as a result of rape?
Yes, but the Supreme Court made the ruling on the risk to her life because of suicide ideation. The rape was not a condition of the judgement, it was just a fact in the evidence.
7. Much has been said about there being no term limits in the Bill. Because of the omission, can a woman who is eight months pregnant – and deemed suicidal because of that pregnancy – be granted a lawful abortion?
If a woman is pregnant and suicidal, she may request her pregnancy to be terminated. This can happen at any point during the pregnancy. However, this will not mean that late-term abortions will be carried out.
The Constitution – and medical ethics – will kick in here.
The constitutional right to life of the unborn still has to be upheld, and where the foetus is viable, it is a clinician’s duty is to offer the best possible treatment to both a pregnant woman and the unborn child.
If the pregnancy is deemed to be the cause of the suicide risk and/or ideation, it may be terminated. This will be done by way of an early delivery if the foetus has reached viability (which is usually at about 25 weeks gestation).
The baby will be born alive and every effort will be made to save its life – and keep it alive. Speaking earlier this week in the Dáil, Justice Minister Alan Shatter explained that it is not about “murdering the unborn child”. This fact was reiterated by Master of Holles Street Dr Rhona Mahoney during the Health Committee hearings in May and June.
8. The Minister for Health said that the law could result in more babies ‘suffering damage’. What did he mean?
Last month, James Reilly conceded that the Government’s proposed abortion laws will probably result in more babies being delivered having ‘suffered damage’ because of their premature delivery.
This is because of what could happen in the scenario explained in Question 7.
The laws allowing pregnancy to be terminated could result in more children being delivered in a premature state – a condition which would ultimately mean health difficulties for the baby.
Viability of a foetus cannot be worked out to a specific gestational point and there may be a grey area when discussing a foetus at the cusp of viability (24 to 26 weeks).
9. Can a woman who is pregnant and has been told her baby will be born with a disability be granted a lawful abortion?
No. There are two reasons outlined in this Bill which allow for lawful terminations. The first being a danger that the woman will die because of physical, medical complications because of the pregnancy or that she is suicidal because of the pregnancy.
Neither relate to this scenario.
10. Can a woman who is pregnant and has been told her baby will not be compatible with life be granted a lawful termination?
No. And this has caused much controversy in recent weeks.
About 1,500 cases of fatal foetal abnormalities are diagnosed in Ireland each year and about 80 per cent of women travel to the UK for terminations (often in the form of early, induced labour).
A campaign group was set up in an attempt to have their cases included in the current Bill but amendments were rejected on fears that it may be deemed unconstitutional.
Advocacy group Terminations for Medical Reasons (TFMR) says it is determined to keep fighting to ensure families in these situations can be cared for in their own country.
11. Can a woman who tries to abort her baby or procures an unlawful abortion be sent to jail?
Technically, yes. But Minister Reilly has insisted discretion will be used on the part of the DPP and the courts. The Bill reads:
It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.
A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.
A woman or anyone who assists that woman to procure an illegal abortion can be prosecuted. This could include the buying of abortifacients online, something which family planning agencies have said occurs across the country.
The sanctions have been widely criticised but Minister Reilly defended its inclusion, noting that prior to these changes a woman could be sentenced to life in prison. He also said the DPP – and the courts (if it gets that far) - will use their discretion in cases.
The government argues that sanctions must be in place to ensure back-alley abortion clinics are not established.
12. What can and can’t doctors do if another case such as the Savita Halappanavar tragedy presented itself?
There were many elements to the Savita Halappanavar case so we can’t say that any one piece of legislation – if in place at the time of her hospitalisation – would have saved her life.
To go back to the day doctors confirmed that she was suffering an ‘inevitable miscarriage’, we can say that this legislation would not have changed the actions at that point.
Neither this legislation – nor our Constitution – allows for a termination to be carried out if a woman is having a miscarriage. She must see it through naturally and it will not be expedited (unless there are real and substantial concerns about her life – not her health). In Savita’s case, although the miscarriage was underway, there was still a fatal foetal heartbeat so the process could not be sped up.
13. If a woman has an illness (such as cancer) and is unsure of how a pregnancy will impact her health and life, what happens?
Another grey area. If there is no danger to her life (as distinct from her health) because of the pregnancy, she will not be granted a lawful termination.
In such a scenario, if a woman believes her life to be at risk she can request a termination. Two medical practitioners will decide if the risk can only be averted by carrying out a medical procedure. In this scenario, the threat does not necessarily have to be immediate.
This section is pertinent when recalling the ABC versus Ireland case which hit the European Court of Human Rights, and led it to recommend Ireland clarifies is laws – which ultimately led us here.
‘C’ in that case became pregnant as she was in remission from cancer. Before realising her condition, she underwent a series of check ups which could have impacted negatively on pregnancy. She said she did not (and could not because of current law) receive clear information about the risk the pregnancy posed to her health and life if she continued to term.
The Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights unanimously ruled that Ireland’s failure to implement the existing constitutional right to a lawful abortion in Ireland when a woman’s life is at risk is a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
14. If a woman is in an emergency situation and pregnant, what do doctors do?
The legislation doesn’t change anything in this scenario, but it does offer clarity to doctors.
Where a woman is pregnant but at risk of dying, all medical treatment can be carried out even if it is to the detriment of the foetus. The Bill explains that the procedure can be signed off on by just one doctor who “believes in good faith that there is an immediate risk of loss of the woman’s life from a physical illness”.
In this case, the risk must be immediate.
15. If a woman is pregnant, and suicidal because of that pregnancy, what do doctors do? Does a woman have to prove she is suicidal? How does she do this?
This has been the most controversial aspect of the Bill.
However, it is not a change in what is legal or illegal in Ireland. Since the X Case in 1992, it has been lawful to have an abortion in Ireland on the grounds that the pregnant woman is at risk due to suicide (see Question 1 on the binding nature of a ruling by the highest court in our land).
In the current Irish Medical Council guidance for medical practitioners, a doctor is told to undertake a full assessment of any risk of suicide in light of clinical research in the area. If a substantial risk to the life of the mother is found, an abortion can legally take place in Ireland.
What this Bill provides is a process or framework for this situation.
If a woman requests a termination because she is suicidal, this process will begin. Three medical practitioners – one obstetrician and two psychiatrists – have to jointly certify “in good faith” that there is a real and substantial risk of loss of life by way of suicide and that in their reasonable opinions, that risk can only be averted by carrying out a termination.
The three-doctor panel have also been encouraged to consult with the patient’s GP, once consent is obtained from the woman.
If a termination is not granted because the conditions above are not fulfilled, then an appeals process can be accessed. The review panel will consist of three more doctors.
16. Will we know how many women receive terminations in Ireland under this law?
Yes.
Many throughout this debate have voiced concerns that legislation based on mental health can ‘open the floodgates’ to a wider regime, as it has done in other jurisdictions. The Minister has confirmed that he will report on the number of applications, reviews and terminations each year.
No woman or doctor will be identified in those annual reports.
17. Can a doctor refuse to carry out a termination?
Yes. The Bill allows for conscientious objection:
Nothing in the Act will compel any doctor, nurse or midwife to carry out or assist in a termination.
However, that person is obliged to make arrangements to transfer the patient to another care provider.
18. How does Ireland now compare to other countries?
Ireland now joins most other European states which allow for abortions only under certain conditions.
Other countries, including the UK and the Netherlands, allow terminations where there is a risk to the mother’s health – be it mental or physical. Many countries also loosen their restrictions in the case of rape, incest, teenage pregnancies (Finland offers abortions up to 20 weeks if the pregnant girl is younger than 17), or when there is foetal abnormalities.
Laws relating to abortion are not as restrictive in Northern Ireland as they are south of the border but they are not as loose as other parts of the UK. Women there are also not entitled to an abortion through the national health insurance scheme (the NHS), as they are in England and Wales.
Gestational limits vary across Europe. Although women in England, Scotland and Wales can have an abortion up to 24 weeks of pregnancy about 90 per cent are carried out before 13 weeks. In Belgium, Denmark and France there is a 12-week limit, while others including Austria and the Netherlands allow terminations up to 24-weeks.
In the Netherlands, legislation sets certain requirements about how a woman arrives at her decision to terminate. There are also laws which lay out conditions for the quality of care given by hospitals and clinics where the procedures are performed.
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He put a pocket-sized constitution in the hands of every Venezualan, nationalised their oil and reformed health/education. Aside from the megalomaniacal rants and ego, some of his best political qualities are non-existent in these waters.
A hero of the people.
Mao put his little red book in the hands of every Chinese. When Chaves came to power he changed the constitution. Then he changed it a further 3 times to suit his agenda. So which version did he give the people.
@Mick Jordan
The changes to the constitution were by popular referendum. You may already be aware that such events are a standard event in democratic states. Or, given the chequered history of referenda in Ireland, you may not.
Ahh so it was like Putin when he changed the Russian constitution to allow him return to the Presidency for a 3rd and possibly a 4th bite of the cherry. And he is so popular in Russia too!!!
Ar dheis De go raibh a anam dhilis. A true leader who never lost sight of what he wanted to achieve for his people. A great loss. He will always be an inspiration.
A great loss to the world of left wing politics. He was a fearless leader for the poorest and weakest. I hope his legacy lives on.
Sad day for Venezuela, may he rest in peace.
and the rest of us, not many world leaders stand up to the yanky/Eu fascists quite like he did!!
the revolution will not be televised
God rest you Hugo Chavez. A truly great human being who put the poor before the corporations. A man who stood up for justice and equality and for freedom of small nations against imperialism of George W Bush. Heres hoping Venezuala elects his deputy and continues to re-distribute the oil wealth to the poor who continued to democratically elect Chavez against the wishes of the so-called democracy loving behemoth to its north. Hasta la victoria siempre. Viva Chavez siempre.
RIP.
A truly great man who benefitted the Venezuelan people immensely.
He was a person admired and respected by millions. He will be missed.
It’s a great loss to Venezuela. How I wish our leaders would take a leaf out of his book.
could you imagine Enda or Eamo standing up to the bosses like Hugo did?? never going to happen cos they’re a different breed of human compared to Hugo “no fear” Chavez
Extremely sad to hear of his death. If people look past the media characature of him and really assess and analyse his contribution to Venezuela’s poor they will see a truly committed and honourable man. That is why he was constantly re-elected by his people.
The revolution must wait Por Ahora (for now)…
In fairness Eamon Gilmore’s statement above defies belief – given what his Labour Party are doing to the Irish People at the minute.
And I see the other paragon of virtue Ahmedinejad is going on with his usual BS “martyr” statement on Sky News.
Chavez had good intentions and it’s a pity our “socialists” don’t have the same backbone. Was he a great man? History and time will be his judge.
His only failure was the international company that he kept.
oh yea Ahmadinejad the other DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED leader of Iran.
Only failure? What about judge Maria Lourdes Afiunes? To start…
All those red thumbs. I didn’t realise how unpopular ms. Afiunes was.
@Eamonn – His only failure was the international company he kept? His government had/has a dreadful human rights record. Any chance you might mention that?
Folks, I’m no fan of Chavez and his record. Let’s get that straight. I agree 100% with your comments above. It’s amazing that when someone dies – even with his track record – they suddenly become a “saint”.
For goodness sake everyone. He was no Stalin, but the country has sold off the rights to its own oil to China for the next 20 years and if anyone knows how to use the interweb look up who judge maria Lourdes afiunes is. The country is in an economic mess. The health system has been gutted because it was not Chaves’s own baby. This is what you all want for Ireland? This is your socialism? Well, you’re welcome to it, but find another country to ruin. All this set of comments shows is that if you bang an anti-American drum, you can pretty much get away with anything with western socialists.
I believe you are the first contributor to mention the US of A???
My point being that Western socialists will love a guy no matter what he does, as long as he does what Chaves’s done with his rhetoric.
Of course there is a looney left in the west. The fact remains that he cut proverty by more then half, a huge task in such a short time. I’m as anti left pro right as you will find but I still respect the man. The country is a mess still so hope it can move forward
I hope his cuts to poverty last. I really do. But my suspicion is that the oil revenues spent to do that are gone, and now they are selling the rights to future oil revenue to china. That is unsustainable, and I suspect it is the poor who lose out first, before all the kleptocrats Chavez enabled.
Before Chavez, most of the Venezuelan population were outcasts, completely abandoned in it’s own country. No health. No education. No water, gas, electric or any kind of public services.
They didn’t even had ID’s, that is: No legal existence or recognition, No Civil Rights. No Voting Rights. No voice. No Human Rights.
Venezuela had one of the lowest average IQ’s in the Americas.
Before Chavez, absolutely everything, except oil and tropical fruit juices, was imported from the USA.
All Venezuela’s oil revenue went back straight to the US industry and market, or to Venezuela’s political and business elite’s foreign private accounts in some fiscal paradise.
Years before Chavez, Venezuela nationalized it’s oil natural reserves.
Since Chavez, most of the oil and gas exploration, extraction and refinery is done, owned and run by the venezuelan public companies. Foreign investment participates in Venezuela’s oil business through joint ventures, with no more than 49% ownership.
Since Chavez, what Venezuela has been doing is to diversify it’s oil export’s market, opening a Business office in China and expanding it’s Asian oil fleet. Currently USA buys 65% of Venezuela exports.
Since Chavez, all Citizens, have ID’s, access to health, education, land ownership, housing plans, start ups and locally planned and managed projects public funding.
Since Chavez, poverty levels have been reduced by half. Literacy rates are now one of the highest in the Americas.
In only 14 years, the Democratic, Socialist, Bolivarian Revolution, under Hugo Chavez leadership, accomplished, for the benefit of the majority of the Venezuelan population, what nobody did in the previous 2 centuries of venezuela’s history, not even in the past more than seven decades of Venezuela being among the majors, sometimes the major, world oil producers and exporters.
That may explain why, after centuries, literally, of complete media silence and zero world knowledge about Venezuela, only fourteen years ago, all of a sudden, the corporate run world media started to “care” about Venezuela’s “freedom” and “liberties”, placing it in a new “axis of evil” bag, and has been kept busy spreading fear and hate towards a democratically elected “dictator” named Hugo Chavez, elected and reelected in the cleanest, fairest, most checked and observed voting events in the Americas, overwhelmingly voted by landslide majorities that until few years ago didn’t “existed” neither for the rich Venezuelans, nor for the now “concerned” industrial, “developed” nations.
I am anything but anti American, but we have a right (and a duty) to critisize our democracies.
Interesting fact is that while during the last 14 years poverty in Venezuala has been aleviatet to a great extent, whereas it has increased dramatically in USA even among the hard working middle class.
We must confront the privilged Elite who have destroyed large parts of the world. …You are a Donkey Mr Bush…two of Chavez’es best quotes .His best one was “do you smell the sulphur” when he took the podium after Bush left it at U.N convention. Adios Don Chavez R.I.P
It amazes me to hear so many people here eulogising a man whose government had a shocking record on free speech and human rights. But then that’s par for the course with some of the pathetic little socialists around here who, purely because Chavez kept having a go the United States, believe he was some kind of hero. He was nothing of the sort and if people can’t accept that they are simply in denial. If someone counted brutal thugs like Vladimir Putin, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Fidel Castro among his greatest allies then that says all you need to know about him.
Venezuela is the most corrupt country in Latin America, according to the 2012 Corruption Perceptions Index but don’t let that get in the way of a good old anti-USA rant eh? And I’m no supporter of US foreign policy.
Here’s some helpful reading material for the keyboard Marxists when they’re able to put down their copy of Das Kapital:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/07/17/venezuela-concentration-and-abuse-power-under-ch-vez
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2011
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yoani-sanchez/cubans-watching-venezuela_b_1940476.html
I would like to invite all the irish to go and visit Venezuela for a few days. I’m sure that your comments on how good he was won’t be the same after that.
I’ve been there- twice. And by and large the only people who hated Chavez were the same minority elite who gained massively for decades before he came to power. They had complete control of Venezualeas natural resources and they used that wealth to enrich themselves and not the nation (sound familiar?).
Most of the elite refused to use the currency and spent all their time living it up on the beaches of Miami whilst the poor starved. Chavez took their lives of Gucci bags and luxury cars away from them when he was DEMOCRATICALLY elected. The elite were a leech on Venezualean society and they couldn’t agree with the democratic will of the people so they responded by enlisting the help of the CIA to carry out the failed coup of 2002.
Chavez used Venezualeas oil and natural resources to improve the nations health and to lift them out of the poverty trap. Show me one previous Venezualean president who did that Jessy Canchica. The thing is you can’t because they are all sitting in Miami to this day enjoying the millions they corruptly stole from the nation.
If he done so much to improve Venezuela why did he have to go to Cuba for treatment? Are the hospitals in his own country so poorly equipped and staffed? Surely he pumped billions of oil revenue into the heath service? And surely he could have hired foreign cancer specialists to work in his super duper hospitals if the Venezuelian doctors were not up to the task? But no he had to go to Cuba. What does that tell you.
Jessy Cánchica — Are your from an elite, rich family per chance?
I see nobody is lining up to answer my question as to why he had to go to Cuba for treatment
No, I’m not ” from an elite, rich family” Petr Tarasov. In fact my parents voted for Chavez in 1998 for the same reasons everybody did because they were tired of the corruption and the people who had the oil and were spending dollars in Miami like Derek Larney is saying.
Now, we all are in the opposition, like almost half of Venezuelan people who voted against him in the last election (almost 5million people who are not rich by the way).
And it’s true that I can not name and previous president who used the nation’s resources to help the poor, but now after 14 years we have even more corruption and more poor people. How come the government which has had the most revenues from oil for the longest time still has 20.3% of extreme poverty? And that just to mention an example.
To finish, I invite you to read this article, written by a Venezuelan which is not only an opinion but facts:
Excellent article
Of course they are not, they have no information, only rhetoric. Chavez didn’t believe that the Moon Landing happened or that Al-Qaeda carried out the attack on 9-11. He thought Gaddafi was a great man. Gave him a peace prize. This is same Gaddafi that turned anti-aircraft guns on his own people. He lauded Mugabe. Mugabe??!! He had no problem with Holocaust Denial. He was setting himself up to be President of Venezuela for life. Murder rates in Venezuela increased dramatically during his tenure. Over the last two years, while receiving Chemo, he did not attempt to hand over control of the country. He has been sending free fuel to Assad, that other war criminal, so that his tanks and jets massacre his own people. Not a hero by any stretch of imagination I am afraid.
I would like to invite you to go and revisit Venezuela for a few days and, for a change, talk, just talk, with some of the Venezuelan majority that follows and loves Him, particularly among the poorest, just to tell you how “good” things were for them in Venezuela before Chavez.
@Mick Jordan i will tell u why, because in Venezuela it was easier for a doctor to make a ‘mistake’ in the operation or getting ‘confused’. It was easier for an anti-chavist to kill him or seriously worsten his health
In my opinion Hugo was a Cartel leader who looked after the vested interests of his elite family and colleagues while bribing the poor with just enough to remain on good terms. At the same time all the educated and talented venezuelian citizens emmigrated as result of not being in the golden circle and given no opportunity. Sounds familar, Perhaps this is why we irish love him!
A true Statesman that will be remembered and honoured for what he gave to the people, not for what he took from the people. RIP.
Rip Hugo . Here is a very good documentary made by Oliver Stone
Its actually laughable when I hear you lot going on about “He was loved by the people”. The North Koreans said the same about Kim ill Sung and Kim Yong Ill. And the Russians have video of the masses wailing and crying over the death of Stalin.
Well, they kept electing him didn’t they? You seem not to be able to cope with that fact. It’s us that should be laughing at you for being so stupid.
There you go again Petr. You can’t keep it civil. Would the possibility of electroral fraud no spring to mind?
Tell us about the CIS again. hahaha
Seriously though, do you have proof of electoral fraud? If not, I’m sure you like the withdraw the insinuation?
Re-read what I said Petr. I asked if the POSSIBILITY of electoral fraud had never entered your mind.
Well, a basic difference is that all the privately run media freely attacks, disinform, ignore and lies at will.
Another difference is that, since Chavez, Venezuela had fourteen years of the fairest, cleanest, most observed elections, and with the highest participation levels, not only in Venezuela’s history, but in all the contemporary Americas.
the main thing i loved about this man,was his refusal to bend-over for the u.s governments.he was a great example of someone with a real backbone.goodnight sir,you are a true loss.
It amazes me to hear so many people here eulogising a man whose government had a shocking record on free speech and human rights. But then that’s par for the course with some of the pathetic little socialists around here who, purely because Chavez kept having a go the United States, believe he was some kind of hero. He was nothing of the sort and if people can’t accept that they are simply in denial. If someone counted brutal thugs like Vladimir Putin, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Fidel Castro among his greatest allies then that says all you need to know about him.
Venezuela is the most corrupt country in Latin America, according to the 2012 Corruption Perceptions Index but don’t let that get in the way of a good old anti-USA rant eh? And I’m no supporter of US foreign policy.
Sorry, I thought my original post with links wasn’t appearing.
I’m from Venezuela, i´m a professional from a university and i’m not a rich guy, i cant afford a car, in Venezuela a Toyota Corolla cost like 103.000 $, the economy is a crap and anybody would kill you just to steal your phone and shoes, my dad cant use the social security cuz he voted agaist Chavez in 2002, trust me Chavez was just another crazy dictator.
2 people from Venezuela neither a supporter of Chaves both getting red thumbs because the are telling the truth. Something you lot are willing to completely ignore because it doesn’t fit into your political world view. And yet you all accuse the Americans of doing exactly the same thing. Bunch of hypocrites.
Well the Republic Of Ireland expressed its condolences for Hitler as well, so I guess this isnt too bad in comparison.
God help Venezuela now that this man has finally been murdered.
And you have proof he was murdered? Why not share it with us.
Chavez was a dictator pure and simple. The idea that he was murdered is ludicrous. He had no commitment to democracy and his country is an economic basket case. Support for him comes from the sort of people who still have posters of that terrorist che Guevara on their wall.
Cathal — Do you know what was the most eeeeevil thing about him? He halved child poverty. Baaaastard!
Never called him evil, just dictatorial. His is an extremely mixed legacy. Read all articles about Venezuela under Chavez which appear today, not just the anti American bandwagon stuff before hailing him as some sort of hero. Interesting also that amnesty are hugely critical of his regime as are human rights watch. And child poverty is still very high there. Democracy is not to be comprised on.
Cathal they don’t want to hear that. HRW,Amnesty etc its all lies and propaganda as far as they ate concerned. These are the True Believers. The Taliban of Socialism.
Great man will be missed by millions.Example of a man proud of his people & culture to be a rallying call for all downtrodden people.
Pity Ireland hasn’t produced such individuals in the Irish political mainstream parties FG/LAB/FG are just all parasites and euro lackeys who have killed this country’s progress. FG/LAB/FF have stripped Irish state of its resources of natural oil,gas,fisheries and large swathes of its citizens. Need a person to emerge here to be Ireland’s Hugo Chavez and hope we can find such a person or individuals to answer in Ireland’s darkest hour.
Sure higgins may aswell stand up and say bin ladin was a great man , disgraceful that our president, elected by the people of Ireland , uses our voice to declare Ireland is sad about a dictators death.
Petr human rights organizations have said the Ven. elections where a complete sham! The government runs the media. Political opponents have been assassinated and imprisoned! Is that the world you want.
Mark — You’ve drank the kool-aid! Don’t believe the hype. None of those things are true. The elections were declared free and fair by Jimmy Carter’s monitoring group. Nobody said they were a sham. Who told you they did?
The government doesn’t run the media. About 90% of the media is privately owned and operates round the clock.
Again Petr read the report from HRW. It makes your argument defunct.
Have you been to Venezuela, Mick?
Not recently no have you?
I didn’t mention recently. I asked have you been. Have you?
Then maybe you can answer the question as to why he had to go to Cuba for treatment when he was supposed to be spending Billions if not trillions of Dollars on infrastructures for the poor? Why isn’t there world class Hospitals with the very best medical staff available for everyone?
First Chavez, then Paul Bearer…. Sad times
R.I.P. Comandante Chavez
Let me see where do I want to live? America,Canada,Australia or Cuba, Venezuela, Communist China, Communist Soviet Union? Even China and Russia know the socialist experiment has failed! They are more capitalist then the USA could ever hope to be! In Venezuela you could be a poor peasant or a less poor peasant under Chaves. In the USA you can be a peasant or a billionaire/ president if you work hard! Sorry for the rant some folks thing this storie is about USA bashing not Chaves’s death!
have your say