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FIANNA FÁIL HAVE been hitting the headlines for the wrong reasons in recent days, after it emerged that party members voted for their colleagues while they were outside the Dáil chamber.
The Irish Independent reported on Saturday that Fianna Fáil’s Niall Collins had voted for fellow TD Timmy Dooley on six occasions when the latter was outside the chamber.
After telling RTÉ’s This Week programme yesterday that she hadn’t done likewise, Lisa Chambers has admitted to mistakenly voting for Fianna Fáil deputy leader Dara Calleary.
Leader Micheál Martin has asked both Collins and Dooley to step down from the front bench while Fine Gael’s Noel Rock said yesterday he believes the pair breached rules and that the matter requires further investigation.
The Taoiseach, meanwhile, has said he is “not aware” of any government TDs voting for each other in the Dáil.
So, today we’re asking you: Is the Fianna Fáil Dáil voting controversy a big deal?
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Is voter fraud in our national parliament not the worst kind of voter fraud?
@Kev:
The Dail voting system should have safeguards to prevent this happening.
@MJF Consultants: it used to be a TD had to actually walk into a lobby to cast a physical vote, before the system went electronic. Maybe we need to go back to that. That TDs are pushing each others voting buttons is not really a surprise, I’d be more surprised if it wasnt happening, given how easy it is to do. And before FG and SF etc get on their high horse about it, I’d suggest they check with their own TDs first. I’d say every media outlet has people poring over hours of old Dail footage as we speak.
@Conoroconnor: all other parties seem to be holding fire on this one. I wonder why?
@Brian Dunne: simon Harris was out criticising FF yesterday as was Mary Lou
@Brian Dunne: FG and SF came out against it? Smacks of old school cronyism from a couple of FF cronies. Not saying its not a bigger issue but no surprises FFers are the first ones identified.
@MJF Consultants:
Iris recognition scanners at every seat in Dail should fix it, but if belt and braces 2 tier authentication is necessary, perhaps add a system to recognize posteriors!
@Rory J Leonard: iris scanning expensive and not necessary in my opinion pen and paper with a teller to collect would work. Sure aren’t our general elections paper based. Keep it as simple as possible and there’s less room for fiddling
@Rory J Leonard: The truth of the matter is that if it was a rule it wouldn’t happen and if it did a TD would immediately be censured for breaking the rule.
@Kev: absolutely and today the minister for justice admits doing it a few times as if it was the norm, every vote that has been taken since the button has came into existence needs checking because god knows how manyhave been passed illegally….
@MJF Consultants: Having basic integrity and being responsible should be enough of a safeguard.
They are not children!
Lisa Chambers’ explanation is ludicrous. She said she sat in Dara Calleary’s seat by mistake and pressed the button in the first vote. Then she realized she was in the wrong seat, moved to her own, and pressed the button again. Whatever about sitting in the wrong seat ( which sounds far fetched to say the least ) to vote a second time is deceitful.
@John O’Neill: If it was a genuine mistake she would have told the relevant authority immediately to strike it from the record. They’re all at, she was caught.
@John O’Neill: then didn’t bother inform house. Nor did Dara when he knew he voted “when absent”.
@John O’Neill:
I would imagine Ms. Chambers, would tend to remember where her seat is after voting several times already
@John O’Neill: I’d actually nearly give her the benefit of the doubt. It’s plausible and maybe she wanted it on the record that she was voting for whatever it was… but Niall Collins voted for someone else SIX times. That’s where we should be focused.
@John O’Neill: I bet she knows where her seat is in Co Mayo and if any of her constituents had voted twice. The solicitor deputy has some cheek.
@A2 Poster: Why give her the benefit of doubt? she voted twice.
@Derek Poutch: and she knew at the time she’d voted twice but said nothing to put the record straight. It seems to be an endemic practice that they all do.
@A2 Poster: If it was a single vote then I agree but in her version of events she realised her mistkae and then voted again. Why not report the mistake at the time? Why not speak to somebody and ask can she have his vote taken away or transferred? Why wait until other people are being investigated for dodgy voting before coming forward. She would have had a lot more benefit of the doubt if she had done that? As it stands she appears to have done the same as a fellow colleague and come up with an excuse that sounds as believable as “the dog ate my homework”
@A2 Poster:
Benefit of the doubt, you’re having a laugh surely. It’s Fraud , plain and simple fraud all day long. Chambers defense that she only committed it once is akin to saying that an armed robber only robbed one bank as opposed to six. She’ll be gone by the end of the day. Totally unsuitable to hold public office.
Bet their all at it
@TM B: *they’re
@TM B: Rotten from the top down ugh!!!!!!!!!!
All found guilty need to resign, they have shamed our democracy & no I’m not talking about the bank garuntee
@Kev: yea kick them out.
Of course it is, if i let somebody else vote for me it would be a big deal.
Boris Johnson will be onto Michael Martin to learn more about Fianna Fáils 2 votes for 1 process, could get him out of a hole
@Séadhna Logan: cool name
Simple its not democracy, it’s cheating.
This is Electoral fraud.. Plain and simple
@jimmyd123: elections dont take place in the Dail, this is voter fraud
@jimmyd123:
Correct. Fraud all day long. Ceann Comhairle needs to report the matter to Gardai who should carry out a full criminal investigation.
You can bet their all at it….
@Willy Mc Bride: *they’re
@Jazz Buckler: they are.
@Jazz Buckler: wots yr prob wiv their they’re there
@Willy Mc Bride: All of FF? That’s a big claim to make. Can you back up this assertion?
@DaMoons: perhaps he meant all TDs, an even bigger claim to make, but that’s the advantage of ambiguous claims, you can ‘tailor’ them as evidence emerges without having to change your initial claim
No wonder the country is in Sihte
Politicians who couldn’t be bothered to do their job
They are employees of the state ‘ of the people ‘ if that happened in the private sector …..P45
We are too easy on these leech’s
@Mark Walsh: If i used a friends card to clock him into work id be fired and yet this voting fraud is way more serious.
Of course their all at it. It should be a hand- print clock in system and no phones within the chamber. Half them not even.paying attention to what their voting on
@Alan: This. Constituents have a right to know YOU are voting.
It’s real Fianna Fáil
It’s what they are
Did you ever see an honest Fianna Fáil councilor
You would not make it even as a councilor if you were Honest much less a TD
In Fianna fail you are measured by what you get away with
Is it against the law
@Joseph Duggan: has to be, it’s voter fraud in the national parliament
@Darren B: Except it’s not really voter fraud, is it.
@Bob Earner: what is then?
@Camacsaint: From the sounds of things not illegal.
There hasn’t been a single article that I can find that talks about this being a legal issue. It appears to be an ethics issue.
It’s like a lot of other things; something is okay to do until it isn’t.
A fellow party member voting on your behalf with your permission is definitely something I can see many TD’s being able to justify to themselves.
@Bob Earner: It’s not a case of “something is ok to do until it isn’t” so much as “something is ok to do until the public finds out uh oh”
Even if there is a whip the integrity of the whole system is put into doubt then if this is allowed
It might not be illegal but the fact that the Ceann Comhairle is investigating would imply that dail rules have been broken.
The rules of the dail are a part of our democracy. We have proportional representation and someone voting for their mates constituents doesn’t fall under that remit that they have been given
@Vin: I’m not disputing ANY of that.
But unless it’s written down somewhere both you and I know that it’s not a rule. And like every single other aspect of peoples lives, bad habits are formed.
I will guarantee you that members of the same party don’t see the issue with voting for another member. The Whip would require all TD’s of their party vote along party lines. Hence the reason why those that did this don’t BELIEVE they did anything wrong.
@Bob Earner: The rules of the Dail state that the TD has to be inside the chamber to case their votes, not necessarily at their seats and in this case they can ask someone sitting near their seat to “press the button”, but in both cases, the TD’s (Dooley & Calleary) were not in the chamber.
@Linda Hunt: Then they broke the rules and should be correctly censured.
There is no honesty whatsoever
Voting for another person is that same as signing a legal document in someone else’s name. The question now is, are the outcomes of those fraudulent votes valid, or are they the fruit of a poison tree?
@Mary’s Abbey: I’d be interested to see his claims for expenses too!!!!!!!!!!!
Just discovered a friend voted for me in this poll while I was away from my phone. Full disclosure and sincerest apologies
@Jazz Buckler: can you ask the journal to correct the record for the vote so?
Listening to Lisa Chambers this morning ….. she must think we are thick .
I don’t believe ANY of them.
Disgraceful. I bet they never forget to claim there own expenses.
@Camacsaint: Must? We prove over and over again many of us are. Bertie Ahern and a 60 something man with no bank account of his own ring a bell?
Yes it is a problem, it shows a lack of integrity. Probably only the tip of the iceberg though across all parties. FF just got caught.
@SkylineSi: Ish. Wasn’t the register updated a few years ago to stop certain people voting on behalf of the dead? Some people have zero conscience when there’s political gain involved.
This is cheating and they have all tried to make excuses the only problem is that they were caught
The Gardai should be brought in and arrests made. This is voter fraud plain and simple.
Perhaps it’s time to rollout a photographic TD services card…not an identity card of course, and it could be mandatory, but not compulsory.
It could be used to access TD services such as voting, to check the finger pressing the button is actually attached to the face on the card and also for getting things like government stationary, free postage and print services.
It could even be used to access and exit the dail itself and to log into the dail chamber, to show in realtime if your TD is present and also to access the dail bar, so you can see when they are relaxing with a drink instead…
@David Van-Standen: This is Gold.. comment of the year!
The word for this is Impersonation. Were I to go into apolling booth pretending I was someone else in order to vote, I would be guilty of the crime of impersonation. If caught I would be arrested, charged and be up before the courts. I fail to see how impersonation in the Dail is any less of a serious matter.
But like we seen in the insurance fraud being committed by two FG sitting TDs, nothing will happen. TD’s on government seats are not subject to the law that everyone has to abide by.
@Dave Doyle: It’s not Impersonation, the crime is personation and it’s a criminal offense.
Under the ELECTORAL ACT, 1992 section 134, states “A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the commission of the offence of personation shall be guilty of an offence.”
Personation (rather than impersonation) is a primarily-legal term, meaning ‘to assume the identity of another person with intent to deceive’.. It is often used for the kind of voter fraud where an individual votes in an election, whilst pretending to be a different elector. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personation)
@Harry Power: Fair enough Harry, thanks for the correction. The crime of impersonation took place in the chamber of Dail Eireann on more than one occasion by known individuals.
Why haven’t they been charged?
@Dave Doyle: Why haven’t they been charged? Lets see…..
1. “It was an honest mistake”
2. “Lisa Chambers didn’t realise she was sitting in the wrong chair”
3. “It didn’t affect the vote any way”
4. “They are hard working deputies and mistakes sometime happen”
5. “Dooley was working on a problem for one of his constituents”
6. The entire system is corrupt
Take you pick :-)
No because we wouldn’t expect any better from them
@Thomas Sheridan: But we can demand better and should.
Are these TDS getting paid to be in attendance. It used to be called on the hop
Liza chambers from the party that has a long established practice of voting early and voting often.This is a woman who alledgedly is an expert on the law,well I wouldnt pay her a juice for any advice if she is a thick as her activities suggest.
cant believe there isnt a fob or even a pin on the voting system. what a joke. and they wonder why we don’t trust them with evoting
It’s the bare faced lying when caught that tops it off. Caught out badly. Can’t be trusted, not that there, was much in the first place.
Taking people for fools.
This poll is skewed,there are plenty of significant issues to be dealt with,all that have to be voted on.
How can we trust any party to pass legitimate legislation when this seems to be common practice in the Dail.
Is this possibly related to expenses, like clocking a work colleague into work, which is a dismissable offence.
Our country is crying out for a new forward thinking party. I have no faith in any political party on our island. This is just another scandal in a long line of scandals from a disgusting party whose politicians only serve themselves
The minister for justice admitted to doing likewise on the radio this morning, let that sink in. The absolute state of Irish politics at present in an embarrassment to us all as we continue to vote for those chancers.
Dail cheets cheets us all
Elect me. You can bet I’ll take the process seriously and won’t lie. We deserve better for what these folks are paid and the trust we give them.
@Mary Morrisey: elect me and I can run around the chamber voting as often as possible on the motion in hand!!!!!!!
Their going to need a good solicitor,maybe ms.Bailey could recommend one!
Apart from Flanagan FG is eerily silent. Suspicious.
Nothing matters. We’re all just balls of mass hurtling towards our death on a blue planet. Everything is meaningless.
@Steve Smith: Jaysis
It shows a lack of respect for parliament and the general public. Combine this with the already regular poor attendance in the Dáil along with last weeks invalid expenses report and it gives an impression of politicians in FF and FG especially not taking their responsibilities seriously as they feel they’ll be elected on the party name rather than how they behave or what they achieve as individuals.
The thing is they are all at it. How many close votes were passed or defeated by fraudulent votes being cast? Let them go back to having a proper division and head count. In politics if there is a dishonest way to do things the politicians generally will do. Close the loopholes.
TD’s pushing each others buttons, really pushes other peoples buttons!
Why split the yes vote ??
It’s a very serious offence to take place where the country’s laws are voted on.
The Dail is an amazing place —–One can be absent and present at the same time!1
What were they Voting for?
It may well be that the votes in question are tainted, that the legislation affected is unconstitutional and the state has a constitutional crisis on its hands.
Thankfully not one of those cowboys are in their seats as a result of my voting. Totally and utterly scandalous…and I mean how we keep voting those Charlatans each time around! How outrageous Irish people forget so easily. You can clearly tell they are in it for themselves and back slapping! Not in my name thankfully.
The leopard just can’t change it’s spots, its in it’s DNA.
If they’re colleagues knew about it and it was an arrangement that they had between themselves I don’t see the issue.
I’d be very interested to see if there is a legal issue (the fact nothing is stated would indicate that there isn’t).
If you’re a member of a party and you have an agreement with a fellow TD to vote in their or your absence I really don’t see the issue.
John Oliver talks about elected representatives doing the exact same thing in the US. Apparently it’s called “Ghost Voting”.
*their colleagues (damn)
@Bob Earner: What if their colleague said they would but didn’t vote the way they said they would for you?
@Mary Morrisey: Then they broke the agreement and I assume would raise an issue with the ethics committee or whatever form of redress they have.
And again, from the sounds of things this isn’t a legal issue.
I don’t dispute that it LOOKS bad. But I wouldn’t be at ALL surprised that this has been standard behaviour for a lot of party members.
It’s like everything else, something is okay to do until it isn’t.
A fellow party member voting on your behalf with your permission is definitely something I can see many TD’s being able to justify to themselves.
@Bob Earner: attendance at the Dail an issue?
@Bob Earner: there should never ever be an arrangement whereby one TD can vote in place of another. If that were so then we could have an empty chamber except for one TD from each grouping. That one TD could run around the chamber pressing all the other TDs voting buttons…
It would be a great spectacle on RTE. The quickest TD sprinter would cast the most votes.
@Micheal S. O’ Ceilleachair: Well that a reductio ad absurdum if ever I heard one.
Perhaps you’re right, arrangements like those should never exist, except it looks like they did. It would appear that it’s never been addressed in Chamber Ethics and yeah, I’m thinking it should have been.
If they voted like Westminster (by going through doors) this wouldn’t be an issue.
If they made it clear it was unacceptable by putting rules around it this would be a clear cut violation.
From the sounds of things this is like a retroactive reaction to something that I suspect many TD’s didn’t see an issue with.
@Bob Earner: Proxy voting is a standard in most bodies.
“Proxy voting is a form of voting whereby a member of a decision-making body may delegate his or her voting power to a representative, to enable a vote in absence. The representative may be another member of the same body, or external.”
@Francis Devenney: So this is informal proxy voting?
Why not use Biometrics to clock in and clock out and also use it to cast a vote
@Paul Dolan: Yes. Sure even my phone can recognise my face, and it’s five years old.
I don’t think it’s that big a deal in and of itself but…. same old Fianna Fáil
Very easy fix it…put a fingerprint fob instead of the buttons.
Two government ministers have said, they have done it on occasion, so they need to go back to a walk through vote.
YES, Familiarity breeds contempt, full stop.
This poll is just a survey for Martin… The same as the poll for Maria Bailey…The let’s move on syndrome already in action.
Lots of votes being cast for option 3 . Take your finger off the button Niall ! We know it’s you!
As the late Brian Lenihan used to say, “vote early and vote often”. Old habits die hard it seems?!
@Paul Shepherd: No. Brian Lenihan was the one who said “on mature reflection” which is basically what Ms.Chambers said yesterday. The “vote early and vote often” was surely the maxim in N.I. where there was a notoriously loose electoral role.
These people are making laws, doing budget and more importantly making decisions that has the potential to change our country for ever and they can’t be professional with all that responsibility I think it’s a disgrace
Don’t let FF see this online Vote, they’ll end up getting their mates to vote for them saying it’s no big deal!…
One wonders how much voter fraud these turkeys commit OUTSIDE the chamber?????
The cırcumstances surrounding how it happened seems to show that there were honest mıstakes made by incompetent people sıttıng ın the wrong seats. However, that isn’t an excuse and should invalidate the legıslation/decisions they voted on.
She’s as corrupt as the rest of them. The mare
A TD resign? As if
The idea that democracy can be subverted so casually is frightening. Theoretically any person in the chamber could vote in whatever way they wished. Surely if it takes a fingerprint to open a mobile phone it’s not a big ask to insist that biometrics oversee the voting process in the Dail too. The whole thing is reminiscent of people getting their friends to clock in for them at work because they are on a duvet day. Ridiculous !
There are over 10,000 people homeless and up 600 people on trolleys every day…now that is a big deal…instead of worrying about buttons above in the Dail why now worry about and sort real problems out…. .
Seriously I don’y think this as huge… They were asking there colleges to vote as they would with the whip. This is a procedural transgression which is wrong but not hangable.
TD of all parties work real hard, days are incredibly long and all our TDs deserve our appreciation in that regard.
So lets say this shouldn’t happen but we should have ability to vote securely remotely… Timmy Dooley is caught up in this, look where he lives in Clare, he was phoning this in.. Let’s not pretend that we are whiter than white and didn’t do this ourselves.
So bad practice, should be stopped but no need for a hanging or even changing votes… I very much doubt this all happened in one party.
@Cowboy Paddy: Ha Ha ROFL
@Cowboy Paddy: In the grand scheme of things you may be right, but if TD’s can’t be there for their votes, then bring in a new process – don’t abuse and ignore the rules in place because they don’t suit you – we can’t do it, so they shouldn’t be able to either.
I mean they are the legislators are they not?
@Cowboy Paddy: Remote voting? Shure who would bother turning up at all?
@Linda Hunt:
Sorry, but are you saying TDs are lazy? Do you think we need to work them harder?
@Cowboy Paddy: You’re saying there might be a case for improving their working conditions, but none of our current TDs liked to speak out?!? You’re a gas man.
Sack the lot of them over paid ass holes
Maybe put people’s name beside the button
It should be a fingerprint to vote problem solved
@Paul Duffy: Its a good mitigation to the problem, but the underlying issue is that TD’s are committing voter fraud, I include Chambers on that too as she didn’t correct the error immediately, these elected officials should be jailed and kicked out the Dail with no cushy pension, if someone committed voter fraud in a GE, they would definitely get jail time
It doesnt surprise me that a Cowen is involved in this too, too many chancers in that Dail, time for a General Election, lets be rid of the FF/FG and choose any alternative.
I don’t see the big deal, as long as they are voting as instructed. It’s hardly a FF issue, they all do it.
Reminds me of Dougal of Father Ted in the “do not touch the button episode”-difference is this is not meant to b a comedy -in most organisations summary dismissal is the outcome of using another persons access for any purpose -this is Dail Eireann where anything apparently goes without sanction .
It now appears that each individual will have to be name tagged with TDS names,the same as in junior infants, biometric tagging be introduced,TDs to rigidly log in and log out each and every time they leave their workstation and in future prove to constituents that when they state they have voted on our behalf then they produce proof of voting .
How can this be a Big Deal when we have what has become acceptable 10,000 HOMELESS shame on us All
Of course it’s bloody serious. If I voted for somebody else or got somebody else to vote for me it would be a fraud and rightly so. Is this not a much more serious offence – giving that a TD’s vote holds the voice of thousands of their constituents and in essence then not just a single vote.
He would be voting yes to follow party whip so no big deal
Imagine you or I voted twice in an election or referendum. How bad the punishment would be!
For an elected representative to do so, while supposedly representing so many people and having so much influence and while having been contracted by the people of Ireland to represent them by democratic means, is hundreds of times worse.
All four involved, the two who voted and the two who were absent for the vote, should be banned for life from the Dáil and the Seanad and have their political pension removed.
The idea that democracy can be subverted so casually is frightening. Theoretically any person in the chamber could vote in whatever way they wished. Surely if it takes a fingerprint to open a mobile phone it’s not a big ask to insist that biometrics oversee the voting process in the Dail too. The whole thing is reminiscent of people getting their friends to clock in for them at work because they are on a duvet day. Ridiculous .
have your say