Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
FOR THE FIRST time since the general election was called, we were treated to all four leaders of Ireland’s largest parties being in the one room together.
Enda Kenny, Joan Burton, Micheál Martin and Gerry Adams went at it in the TV3/Newstalk Leaders’ Debate. Colette Fitzpatrick and Pat Kenny were on hand to provide questions and to ensure they didn’t go all Conor McGregor on each other.
They did last longer than 13 seconds…
Good evening! And welcome to TheJournal.ie‘s liveblog of the first leaders’ debate of the 2016 general election.
It’s Sinéad O’Carroll here, working away in our main HQ. Meanwhile, Political Editor Hugh O’Connell is in Ballymount at TV3′s much-lauded Sony HD studio. You can catch him on Twitter @TJ_Politics for the pre-game warm ups.
Our Deputy Editor Christine Bohan will also be bringing you the big stories (and some of the craic) on TheJournal.ie‘s Twitter @TheJournal_ie.
As I just mentioned, Hugh is in studio waiting patiently for kick off (it seems I’m already all-in on the sporting analogies tonight).
He has just informed us that Gerry Adams has arrived (in style).
That’s all four leaders safely in the building.
In case you haven’t been watching TV3′s promotions for this debate (more on that later), the moderators tonight are Collette Fitzpatrick and Pat Kenny.
We’re sure all of you are as excited about Pat’s return to the small screen – after his departure from UTV Ireland – as we are. But we did enjoy this from one of our commenters who is obviously referring to Enda Kenny’s longstanding refusal to take part in any show in which Vincent Browne is involved:
Aside: This is the first time we’ve set eyes on TV3′s Red Rock.
The auld lad? With the young one? Ah, that’s a lot for us to wrap our heads around pre-debate.
Back to the real world… kind of.
Gerry Adams has been answering Hugh’s questions:
1. Why did you bring the bus?
2. Why were you late?
3. Are you nervous?
His answers?
So, TV3 were understandably excited to land the first four-way between Kenny, Burton, Adams and Martin – four full days before the state broadcaster brings them all to Limerick for Claire Byrne Live.
Colette Fitzpatrick was literally running around the studio earlier while Pat Kenny was using football analogies of his own.
She eventually found Pat, who said:
This is like a football match, I mean the manager or coach may have the grand plan and then the other team don’t play according to the rules. So we don’t know what to expect – that’s what I love about live television. It’s unfolding before us.
Will they come in meek and mild? Will they come in angry? Will they become more agitated as the night wears on? Or are they so tired from canvassing that they’ll put us all to sleep?
Right, we’re off. The studio does look well, in fairness to them.
Oh by the way, we’ll be keeping an ear out for these words and phrases:
Lots were drawn to see who goes first but Pat makes clear that all microphones are on, at all times.
It’s ladies first and Joan Burton gets 60 seconds to talk about her working class background. She gets her key message across – Labour is part of that stability we keep hearing about from the government parties.
Gerry Adams starts off with a cúpla focal and tries to take back the word chaos, describing the government parties.
He also gets the first mention of 1916 in, so scratch that off your bingo card.
Meanwhile, Micheál Martin took a sly dig at Fine Gael’s focus-group worked slogans, saying politicians have a duty to focus on issues rather than rehearsed phrases.
And now we’re into question time, starting with TAX.
In 60 seconds, Enda Kenny managed to get ‘keep the recovery going’ in FOUR times. Whatever your politics, that’s pretty impressive.
The wonderful Annie West has her own waffle-detector in the form of this brilliant cartoon.
That could help you through the next 90 minutes.
What? We’re 10 minutes in and there hasn’t been an inch of fiscal space filled?
Even with all this money talk…
*faints*
A few of you below are looking for a Debate Bingo. The kind gent on Twitter has obliged.
The ‘young person’ is central to this debate.
Any ‘young person’ out there? You have been the catalyst for the first bit of argy-bargy between the leaders.
Joan says the job is the most important thing for you – and admonished Gerry for planning to allow your landlord to increase your rent.
Micheál Martin comes in with his “truism”. Governments do not create jobs, he says. They can create the conditions but not the jobs themselves.
Enda Kenny will argue that, given he was in Galway today taking credit for some 175 jobs in Loughrea. He also points to Martin and says that his party drove 250,000 of those young persons out of the country.
DING! DING! DING! FactCheck time.
If you haven’t seen our ongoing GE16 series yet, we have been scrutinising various claims made by political parties and their candidates.
One of our previously checked ‘facts’ has just been used in the debate.
“There were only 28 local authority houses built last year” – Gerry Adams
Well, is that true?
Verdict
Half-true: 28 is the number built in the first nine months of the year. We don’t have the final figure for 2015.
Colette has to try shut Joan up as she continues to talk about the economy while she is trying to ask about the healthcare system in Ireland.
She goes to Enda then and everything calms down. As he is known to do, he emphasises his words by pointing, rather than raising his voice.
SO MUCH FINGER POINTING.
Micheál Martin, while going at it with Enda Kenny, has patted himself on the back for being the minister for responsible for the successful smoking ban.
Joan concedes he deserves credit for that one.
And a bit more argy bargy and finger-pointing.
Among all that fighting, we heard the words petty, silly and petulant. No arguments from viewers, we’d say.
Just the three?
Colette and Pat did try to get the four to concentrate on one topic and think of us at home trying to decipher what they’re on about.
Definitely a well-timed break in the broadcast now.
Another fact, another check.
“Fianna Fáil drove 200,000 young people out of the country.” – Enda Kenny
Verdict
Depends on which Fianna Fáil term he meant, but Fianna Fáil oversaw net inward migration.
From 1997-2010, 276,800 people aged 15-24 emigrated.
From 2007-2010, the figure was 90,600.
However, net youth immigration into Ireland from 2002-2010 was 107,000. The same figure for 2007-2010 was 75,300
Wow, that was quick.
Back in studio now and we’re onto crime and security.
Obviously, the first question is to Adams about the Special Criminal Court. The Sinn Féin leader says his party’s stance on the matter comes from a social democratic position – and not because of any previous convictions of people connected to Sinn Fein.
He points out that Labour had a similar position to them about the abolition of the court.
“That’s a lie, Deputy Adams, that is a direct line,” says an incredulous Joan Burton.
Our Dan MacGuill is on the ball with his FactChecks.
Here’s another on tax rates and the US.
“Enda Kenny wants Ireland’s tax rates to be on a par with the US” – Micheál Martin.
Verdict
Mostly true.
In December, the Taoiseach told reporters:
One of the things we have to reach out to is to make personal tax rates competitive with Britain, and with Australia, and with Canada, and with the US.
“For a man who is auditioning to be Taoiseach… it is an appalling proposal,” says Joan, speaking about Adams’s claim that jurors could go into witness protection programmes.
He denies saying this. He says he was just listing off ways other countries deal with similar organised crime.
Enda is staying quiet but Gerry is trying to get him to debate the various garda controversies that marred the government’s 2015.
But he’s stuck with debating Martin about past abuses. (Although Enda did politely put up his hand, indicating he might want to speak).
“Go away and catch yourself on,” is Gerry’s best retort to Martin.
It’s getting a bit livelier now.
“I’ve never crawled into the Dáil in my life,” another choice line from Adams after Martin says he “crawled” in to admit that there was historic cases of abuse with the Republican movement.
Oh and Enda is off.
It’s his favourite topic – telling Gerry Adams does not tell the truth. He speaks uninterrupted about the Troubles, gangland crime and the Sinn Féin president’s past.
The next topic is abortion, specifically the issue of women who have been given diagnoses of fatal foetal abnormalities.
After saying it should be de-politicised, he says that it takes time to change laws.
Colette is strong on the questioning here, not letting Enda sidestep on Fine Gael’s position.
“You’re not going to answer the question”? she says, cutting off his rambling.
LOVE/HATE gets a mention. Didn’t really expect that.
Pat Kenny reminds Micheál Martin that they were in government when the RTE drama premiered.
We just fact-checked Pat there, and he’s correct. The first episode of Darren et al aired in 2010.
We think Bobby sums up everyone’s reactions to this segment on the Eighth Amendment.
While the lads avoid the questions on abortion, Joan’s answer is more simple: Yes, Labour will look for a referendum to repeal the Eighth Amendment.
But, she swiftly has to dodge questions about Enda Kenny and Fine Gael’s position, given their cosy positions.
She does so by speaking ‘as a mother and as a woman’.
Enda says he is not uncomfortable talking about abortion, before moving on to words about the constitution, processes and reflecting society…
Pat then asks a difficult but succinct question:
If a constituent comes into your office who is in distress after having an abortion, who do you call first: the ambulance or the police?
Without skipping a beat, Enda says the ambulance.
Another break, another factcheck.
“The government has closed 140 Garda stations” – Gerry Adams.
Verdict
Almost entirely TRUE. The exact number is 139.
Next up is housing…
Meanwhile, we’ve been discussing whether anyone is actually winning this debate.
Colette? Pat? Twitter has a different idea…
And there’s Fianna Fáil’s easy win of the night.
She tries to clarify what she meant by that, but didn’t get the opportunity so she’ll be dealing with that for the coming hours.
Colette tries to get Enda to say a few more words on housing, and again, the others are quiet as he talks. Is it his schoolteacher presence?
“You’ve got to build houses,” he says, multiple times.
Let’s do this.
“Fianna Fáil built 14,000 social houses, FG + Labour built 1,000″ – Micheál Martin.
Verdict
Half-true. Gives figures only for local authority housing.
From 2007-2010, 14,035 local authority and 6,345 voluntary and co-operative houses were built. A total of 20,380. From 2011 until September 2015, 1,328 local authority and 2,184 voluntary + co-operative houses were built. A total of 3,512.
“JUST STOP,” Colette almost-shouts.
This is what started that round of screaming.
Most of you at home are not impressed with the leaders’ inability to let each other speak.
Is this bit rehearsed from Enda and Joan?
She splits the room in half, positioning herself and Enda has a team, telling Gerry to take the snide look off his face.
He gives her a simple Gerry smile back.
I think there was actually a few of them in there…
Oddly, not a mention of that fiscal space.
After that remark from Joan Burton about Fr Peter McVerry not knowing all the government’s plans to tackle homelessness, the Trust has been tweeting.
Here’s another we prepared earlier.
“The government opened up 2,500 vacant houses last year” – Joan Burton
Verdict
TRUE, but actually slightly understates the figure, which was 2,696. However, her claim that all those houses are now occupied does not have a verifiable factual basis. For more details, check out this article.
And we’re all done. That was a swift end to a 90-minute rollercoaster ride.
Not a massively illuminating debate. We’re no clearer on the various parties’ stance on the Eighth Amendment or who they’d go into government with.
Hugh’s off now to see how the leaders think they went.
Meanwhile, Gavin Sheridan is garnering your reactions on Twitter to all the big questions of tonight – how long did Enda spend on his hair? Is Pat’s tan real? The best dressed?
Check him out at @gavinsblog
We have one last FactCheck for the night. Going back to something Gerry Adams supposedly said about the Special Criminal Court.
Gerry Adams said juries could go into witness protection – Joan Burton (and others).
Verdict
FALSE, but Adams may have left his position open to various interpretations. An Irish Independent transcript of last Sunday’s press conference does not show Adams ever explicitly calling for witness protection for juries, and not assenting when that specific proposition was put to him.
Q. So would you put juries into a sort of witness protection programme?
A: There are measures which can be used to deal with all of that …
Q. You said you’d send jurors into witness protection?
A: I said other administrations deal with this issue and deal with criminality of this kind without resource to Special Criminal Courts.
We’ll be wrapping up soon, but we want to know what you think. Who won the debate?
There’s still quite the buzz out in Ballymount as the post-match analysis continues.
Micheál Martin declared himself happy but Gerry declined to answer a question about whether he won the debate, simply asking back: “What do you think?”
There was still time to get one last dig in though.
Enda sticks to chat about TV’s debate-hosting skills after the show, commenting on the ‘ambience of the environment’.
But he also takes issue with how the 90 minutes went down.
We’ll leave it there as Ivan, Mick Clifford and Co. discuss why Micheál Martin was the winner tonight.
Hugh O’Connell will have more for us in the morning, as well Dan MacGuill our resident factchecker.
Next Monday, Claire Byrne is hosting a seven-person leaders debate which will also include Richard Boyd Barrett (Anti Austerity Alliance/People Before Profit), Lucinda Creighton (Renua) and Stephen Donnelly (Social Democrats).
We’ll be back for whatever that brings. We’d recommend earplugs.
And now we’ll bid you goodnight.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Will he only visit cities with an Irish Embassy?
@Killian Ryan: and maybe the Ambassador can give him his room move into the 3k hotel for the night.
@Killian Ryan: no. Why make a mockery of a perfectly reasonable suggestion,
@Conor Thorne: It’s not reasonable. Loads of countries don’t have an Irish embassy. Consulates, little offices instead… He loves the army, I’m sure he has a good camp bed, sleeping bag and stove.
@Conor Thorne: most embassies don’t include the residence of Ambassadors!!! And their residences are often not large enough to allow for visitors. Just shows lack of knowledge of our foreign presence in other countries
@GClare: exactly, and it could end up costing more. Say for example its an event over a few days and the embassy is way across town, the cost of security to safely transport the President and of securing the embassy might be far in excess of using a local hotel with experience of hosting dignitaries. The reason why certain high end hotels are chosen over and over again for dignitaries of many different countries is because they have the experience, staff and infrastructure to deal with the situation. The Shelbourne would have loads of procedures and experience of dealing with foreign security teams, VIP’s and political staffs etc. The holiday inn simply wouldn’t be able to cope.
@Killian Ryan: The President of Ireland does not arrange his own accommodation abroad this is done by the Department of Foreign Affairs and he has/she would have no say as to what hotel stay in. I heard him on the six news and asking a young girl about voting she asked him why she should vote for him, and he then asked her what kind of Ireland she’d like to see for the future. Firstly, the President cannot change anything in Ireland the position is for the protection of the Constitution and representing the Irish people at home and abroad.
Wouldn’t worry about it Seán, you won’t be staying in any embassies.
Well isn’t he the great fella,
@Tim Oconnell: i can imagine the staff coming to work in the morning and having some old fella sleeping on their desk. I dont mind if someone travelling on business gets a hotel room. Its not unreasonable.
@Tim Oconnell: no time for this gimmicky stuff. The presidency casts money full stop. If we are going to scrimp and save, we should scrap the office. If these guys really want to make a difference they should become TDs.
@Henry Porter: I believe Michael D was a TD for years
SmartHomes made a combined loss of €1.2 million in 2007 and 2008. Sean Gallagher paid himself a remuneration of 420k in this time, despite having €830,000 of outstanding Irish State Agency grants (tax payer’s money) hanging over his head. If he couldn’t rein in his personal expenses when his company was on it’s knees, how can he be trusted with a 7 year term and nobody to answer to except himself. It’s like the guy wakes up everyday and pretends like his past never happened, deluded to say the least.
@Tom Cullen: but he’s wears a suit. He must be some important big businessman.
So – have we any advance on that, anyone at all willing to stay in a B&B ?
The race to the bottom
@eastsmer: Elect me as president. I’m the only candidate willing to sleep on the streets and swim to foreign countries.
@eastsmer: Mrs Higgins did when she visited Dundalk.
@eastsmer: He did mention that he would stay in a tent but how would he show up in a crumpled suit, unshowered and the smell of a breakfast roll after his state car pulls in at the local garage on the way, no, the next contender must be willing to sleep on a park bench or in a doorway,but better hurry, the doorways are in high demand.
@Sean Murphy: Thanks for the laugh, I got looks on the bus, crying laughing at that.
Anyone voting for this Fianna Fáil bagman needs to have a good hard look at themselves. Michael D is an honourable man and does this country proud EVERY time
@Michael Wynne: you must be joking. Higgins is nothing but a pig sucking at the taxpayers test while lying out of the side of his mouth. A common trait among Labour TDs.
@Jay Coleman: lying? When?
He has that Fianna Fail neck.
@Jay Coleman: I’d love to know what you think Michael D has done thats so bad. My guess, you think he had the power to have done something that he actually had no power to do. Or maybe theres some massive Michael D scandal no-onebut you has heard of.
@Jay Coleman: are you not going to share with us in what way President Higgins has lied to us?
@EillieEs: said he would not seek a second term
I suppose its cheaper to stay in Irish embassies than hotels,must remember that the next time i go on holidays.
@Peter Coen: Exactly – does he know the costs associated with a dignitary staying in an embassy? Does he think embassies are airBnBs?
He must do. Most Irish people tend to wait for an invitation before announcing that someone is going to put them up.
You’d swear little Mickey D is there on travago booking his trips and rooms etc. This is all done by some public servant and details sent on to his office. Itinerary done up and in all fairness he’s probably the last to know the details. Given his substantial payout etc let’s see him take on the role with average industrial wage and minimum pension afterwards then there might be a story.
Even if I’d never heard of or seen this man before, one look at him is enough for me to deem him untrustworthy. Some people just have a look about them. He looks like a shyster. I mean, who is voting for these types of people time and again?
@Eon Cocker: Ah, the good old Journal. Just post your “comment “ and no matter how thick you sound they’ll print it for all to see. Pity they don’t give prizes for it. You’d probably make your living at it!
And sleep on mattresses stuffed with brown envelopes.
@Martin Meyler: just clarify the corruption allegations instead of cheap shots
@Conor Thorne: bagman for Bertie? Self admitted FF fixer. Also, being associated in ANY way, as he was, with FF, he can’t be anything other than corrupt.
Woow not all heroes wear capes
“Its important to lead by example…..to ensure the use of Public funds is minimised”..So why didnt he hand back the ” substantial settlement” he got from Rte – after all WHO pays for our State broadcaster????????? Utter hypocrisy from this guy ….again..
@Margate: waiting impatiently for the answer how much compensation did the bagman get?
Where will security and his Aide De Camp stay?
What happens when he visits a country we don’t have an embassy in?
@Baron Adams TD: Aldi selling off summer stock. Tents , sleeping bags ,mini bar b q and pool floats
Throw in a Bear Grylls DVD
This chap will save the taxpayer a fortune
@Baron Adams TD: Xont worry about him he just proved that he is an idiot with a new set of teeth.
Did we not have a minister who stayed in the Waldorf Astoria instead of staying in the then Irish-owned Fitzpatrick Hotel in New York.
Some people really are generous with other peoples money.
@George Vladisavljevic: why should he stay there? Are we to only ever use Irish products anywhere in the world?
Just get the feeling that this guy would see it as an incredible personal achievement rather than an opportunity to serve his fellow country men/women. Plus he has a head like the big paper mache yokes you see in the dublin paddy’s day parade. Can’t be votin for that.
He is acting like a BIG CHILD.
You don’t have to keep promises you make looking for votes, P.rabbit TD lp
This fella is part of Bertie’s gang. This is enough of a reason not to vote for him.
Read between the lines of his Wikipedia page,
@Niall Power:Jaysus, a fair amount of fails, to be honest
Michael D should carry his own fold up cot with him next term save a fortune
@maurice healy: Stick the cot in a corner Mickie D will fit into it . Jobs a good one.
He wants to stay in embassies..Ferraro rocher will be delighted
@Kieran OKeeffe: he want satay in embassies. But only in the East I presume.
Go away Sean. You’re deluded. I suppose you have to admire his confidence in himself.
Pathetic cheap shot at the office of the President.
Why are these guys demeaning the office by not wanting to spend money to stay in hotels, or giving away the salary?
It cheapens politics into a plaything for the rich. Being a politician is a job, it has a pay packet. It’s not a vocation.
Sean Gallagher as Ireland’s yellow pack President
you could save a bit more by going Airbnb
and maybe a big mac for breakfast at McDonalds
For transport you could avail of the Cycle to Work Scheme
the added value here you will save on gym membership
Who cares … was our president supposed to stay in a Premier in . Just trying to make something out of nothing
@Aidan Murray: how can it ever be justified to pay €3000 for a night anywhere? Nobody is saying he has to stay in a dump but surely there has to be a limit to the cost of where he stays.
@Seamus Ryan: So you would be happy if the president of our country was reported staying in a hotel , in a double room, while Conor McGregor
Or his Ilk booked the “Presidential” suite, in the same hotel. This man is serving an elected role representing our country on the world stage. There are norms befitting this. I don’t think that this is wrong.
@Seamus Ryan: How many people did the bill cover, though? There’s not much point in promising not to sleep in hotels if that means that you are personally looked after and your staff can scramble for the nearest B&B, all the same.
@Aidan Murray: if it’s a State visit, the other side pays for President + an agreed number of delegation.
@Seamus Ryan: Horse manure, ill informed, non- contextual point, sorry….
Will he still gather infinity stones as he goes?
He can sleep under the rock he has been hiding under for the last few years
Go away Sean, just go away.
And will he be having breakfast in mcdonalds ;^)
@Sean Conway:
Better quality food in the travel lodge
Shows how much he knows!!! Don’t think many embassies have guest rooms
@Mary McCaffrey: Absolutely. A typical Irish embassy is some rented office space on the nth floor of a commercial building. A couple of offices, 2-3 diplomatic staff including the ambassador, and a few local staff. Toilets shared with other businesses on the same floor. And of course closed at night.
Who cares? Why is he trying to negotiate with us? I couldn’t car if he stayed in a hot air ballon.
@Big Red:
He could fill it by just talking to it!
I don’t get it, the president of our country stays in an expensive hotel, okay it was a bit excessive but where do we expect him to stay, in a Travel Lodge?
@FartyTowels:
He’d get a great breakfast in the travel lodge
Big irish fry up
Go away SG, just go away.
So he wont be staying in Irish Embassies so
Maybe he will bring the Ferrero Rocher,
For the ambassador
ahhhhhh!
more fake tan tv wannabes spouting inane dribble in the deluded hope of seeming like a concerned everyday Joe soap and achieving the status of joe dope
Look at him there, isn’t he great all the same.
No need for an Irish President the country is so small its just another burden on taxpayers
ridiculous
I’d rather vote for Trump than this clown Gallagher!
@Dotty Dunleary: well now I wouldn’t go quite that far.
Another after big monies
Still a FF bagman
Just bring a caravan
Have we Embassies in the North and South Poles that he would be allowed to go to and “Chill Out” before the Big Campaign.
Whst a clown. Maybe he should invest in a tent and a backpack. He is full of what makes the grass grow green in Texas. Vote M .D . Higgins.Slainte
Wonder who he is going to sue this time for damages when he looses. Hopefully the journal.ie
Just leave Micky at it we don’t want that narcissist representing/misrepresenting us
Still a c#@t
What a gobxhite!
Michael D
Loves the luxury needs comfort as he gets older
Fair play to Sean
@Pat Mooney: well I’d hardly expect the President to be couch surfing when representing us abroad.
@EillieEs:
His one regret was
That he never got to do santa
But he promises,
That lf he’s reelected, that HE will do santa in
THE SQUARE IN TALLAGHT SHOPPING CENTRE
ONLY IF HE CAN GET SOMEONE TO
HOLD HIM DOWN
Like
I
Am
Raging
Give him a chance, to be fair he deserves one
@Mr Mystery: why does he deserve more of a chance then any other candidate? What has he been doing over the past number of years that shows he has any interest in serving the public?
Irish people are such hypocrites. We spend most of our time complaining about how public money is wasted yet when someone comes up with a cost saving idea (which also sets a precedence), we belittle that idea. Having the president and his entourage stay in the ambassabor’s residence (where possible) would save money. And more importantly it shows everyone in the civil service/public sector that they are dealing with public money, and if the person at the top takes that seriously then they should also.
F off baldy
He can then pocket the 3 grand, stuff it in a brown envelope for his fellow crooked snakes fianna fail.
in the words of butch cassidy(who are those guys). what an idiotic bunch of morons, and we have to go and vote for them, no thanks. gallaghers case against rte cost the license payers in this country.i only hope its the lowest turnout of any election that ever was, and that the present president stays in the aras
Big deal
have your say