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LAST WEEK, FORMER Anglo Irish Bank chief executive David Drumm was granted free legal aid for his defence against two charges of conspiracy to defraud depositors and investors in the now-defunct bank.
Since quitting as the bank’s CEO in December 2008, Drumm lived almost exclusively in the US where a lengthy attempt to declare bankruptcy was denied before he eventually returned to Ireland last year.
At the time Drumm left Anglo he was on a salary of about €3.3 million, not counting his pension entitlements. Still he was granted free legal representation for a trial that is likely to cost hundreds of thousands of euro.
In fact, in more than 70% of criminal cases in Ireland, free legal aid is granted by the courts.
Why is this? TheJournal.ie took a closer look.
Civil or criminal?
Legal aid applies in both civil and criminal cases in Ireland, though in quite different ways.
Civil law applies to disputes between parties (a defamation action, or an argument over lottery winnings say), while criminal law relates to the State prosecuting those accused of a crime.
Civil legal aid however is restricted in the kind of cases in which it can be used – property disputes, defamation, or non-court tribunals (like social welfare appeals or the workplace relations commission), are all excluded.
In all other cases in which it does apply, the aid provided is rarely 100% ‘free’ – the representation given to an individual is on condition that the person in question satisfies two means-test requirements and that a monetary ‘contribution’ is made to the system in return.
The threshold for the first means test is that an individual have a ‘disposable’ income of less than €18,000 per year (not counting certain allowances such as €8,000 for accommodation and €6,000 for childcare, also per annum), and assets worth less than €100,000 (not counting the family home).
“That can be complicated by the fact someone may own machinery or land for example that is essential to their livelihood – farmers for instance,” says Ciarán Finlay, legal and policy officer with Free Legal Advice Centres (FLAC), a charity providing free advice to those who can’t afford it.
The second requirement is a ‘merits’ test – an individual has to show that were they able to afford it they would still pursue their case to the courts, and that professional legal opinion would advise them to do so.
Family law
The Legal Aid Board (LAB) meanwhile is the statutory instrument responsible for legal civil aid. Applications for such aid can be made at any of the LAB’s offices nationwide.
The majority of the board’s operating capital is provided by a grant from the Department of Justice (just under €33 million in 2015 – by contrast €1.5 million was received in contributions from those receiving aid in the same year), while solicitors working for it are paid at civil service rates (the most recent annual report for the board detailing where its money is spent can be found here).
“It’s €30 for receiving advice, and €130 (recently increased from €50) is the minimum contribution for the duration of a legal action, that’s assuming you have income of less than €11,500 per year,” says Finlay of the mandatory contributions.
Often people will have to pay a four-figure sum in reality. But it really depends on where you fall on the scale.
FLAC is a charity providing advice (generally at a maximum of 15-to-20 minute sessions given the demand) for those who cannot afford to pay for it, provided by volunteering solicitors (there are over 320 such active volunteers in Dublin alone).
The LAB meanwhile provides the actual legal representation. In some cases, certain private practitioners are paid a specific amount to cover types of cases with long waiting lists – Abhaile, the mortgage arrears resolution service, is an example of such a scheme.
Otherwise, the vast majority of civil cases covered by legal aid belong to one category – family law.
“The figure is in excess of 80%,” says Finlay. “So separation, divorce, maintenance, custody, access. These are the most common domestic civil cases for which people are unable to pay generally.”
Fundamentally, if you find yourself involved in a domestic dispute and you cannot afford to pay for it, the State will make sure you have representation. And those defending you are expected, in theory, to work as hard for you as they would in a case in which the State had no involvement.
You can read more about civil legal aid here
Criminal law
Which brings us to criminal legal aid, the kind that David Drumm is to receive.
Such aid is completely free, and it’s a costly business for the State – in the three-and-a-half years between 2010 and July 2013 the Irish government paid out €188 million in legal fees.
That money comes directly from the Department of Justice – there is no equivalent of the Legal Aid Board for criminal cases at present. There is also an ad hoc scheme relating to Criminal Assets Bureau matters, and the custody issues scheme, relating to issues of a person’s liberty such as in extradition proceedings. These two schemes are the only ones relating to criminal matters to be administered by the LAB.
In February 2015 Fair Trials International found that in Ireland 71% of suspects and accused persons are entitled to legal aid.
By contrast, the figures for Slovenia and Hungary are 2% and 0.1% respectively. The Fair Trials report, while noting the obvious differences in respect of a country’s economic output, cost of living, and average salaries, nevertheless said it is “critical that anyone who cannot afford to pay for legal representation meets the eligibility threshold in circumstances where it would be unjust for them to face criminal proceedings without such representation”.
Click here to view a larger image
For criminal legal aid here, a means test does apply – the accused must hand in a detailed one-page statement of assets and means, including their family situation, maintenance payments etc. At the bottom of the legal aid form an applicant signs a declaration acknowledging that they could face a fine and six months in prison for knowingly completing the form inaccurately.
In the case of David Drumm, four barristers and a solicitor will be required for his defence, and they have to be paid for. The judge in his case noted also that he is ‘an undischarged bankrupt’, while the prosecution in his case admitted that his assets are ‘roughly what one would expect them to be’.
Crucially, the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions did not object to aid for Drumm – its chief concern is that the matter go to trial as soon as possible.
An application for criminal aid is normally made to a judge in person at district court (or special criminal court) level in Ireland – it must then be reapplied for as the case rises through the judicial levels.
“Usually it’s weighed up – what is the likelihood of facing a custodial sentence, your means, the seriousness of the allegations,” a legal source familiar with criminal defence cases told TheJournal.ie.
There are two categories of client – there are those of low-income households, or people on social welfare, and the gardaí normally won’t challenge a legal aid application in such circumstances. In all other cases, it’s tested in terms of the seriousness of the case, the likely sentence should the defendant be convicted, and the likely cost of a defence.
So to defend a criminal case – you’re talking about retaining solicitors, sometimes also a junior counsel (a barrister), and for the more serious cases also a senior counsel. Significant work goes into preparing a case including retaining expert reports, and it can get very expensive very quickly.
Is legal aid fair?
So is absolutely free legal aid for criminal cases fair? The answer, like so many things in life, is a matter of perspective.
At present, criminal aid is governed by the Criminal Justice Act 1962. Last September Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald committed to one of her party’s pre-election promises – the moving of criminal aid to the aegis of the LAB, and the introduction of measures to safeguard against abuses of the system.
Those measures include the introduction of contributions from defendants (similar to those seen in civil cases as mentioned above), more rigorous means testing, and heavier sanctions for abuses of the system.
Despite this, Ireland’s legal aid system is seen as being one of Europe’s better ones. At present a directive on the subject is expected imminently from the EU – one that is in all likelihood aimed at raising other countries (such as the aforementioned Slovenia and Hungary, not to mention Italy) to the same levels of aid as Ireland currently boasts.
“It is a good system, although, and it would not be popular to say this, the payment for solicitors and counsels can be low for the pressure and volume of work involved,” our legal source says of the Irish system.
You could prepare a case for months, or even years – analysing the evidence, doing research and obtaining expert reports, and if your client leaves you before trial or if the State withdraws the case, you are usually paid nothing.
Having said that, most criminal defence practitioners have a mixed public and private practice (such legal professionals have to be accepted to official panels before they can be accepted for public representation), and, ideally, “work just as hard in both cases”.
You can’t forget how important it is for someone to have legal representation – your liberty, your good name, employment, family rights – it’s all at stake.
It’s quite easy for the general public to feel outraged, but until you’ve stood in the shoes of an accused person, you can’t really understand.
“It comes down to the fact that presumption of innocence and equality underpins our democracy,” they added.
With a criminal sanction such as imprisonment you essentially have the State exercising its greatest power against a citizen – depriving an individual of liberty and inflicting all the hardships that go with that. That cannot be done lightly.
Most importantly – it gives actual meaning to the presumption of innocence. And that’s a cornerstone of democracy.
Russia will be getting jitters now. They took a gamble on crimea it arguably paid off. They did not get up from the table and called the west over eastern Ukraine with a weak hand.
Went spectacularly wrong for vlad. It’s a train crash still happening.
The reason why support is so high is because the Russian government has done a fantastic job in convincing the Russian people that it’s entirely the West’s fault. Putin has convinced the Russian people that the US has been aggressively targeting Russia for no reason when the truth is the US is only acting thanks to Putin’s constant land-grabs in post-Soviet states.
“Putin’s constant land-grabs in post-Soviet states” or in as seen in Russia as protecting russian/prorussian citizens interests. What about the US and israel?
Surprise, another Putinist uses the trademark whataboutery move.
The topic of discussion here is Russian aggression in the Ukraine, the US and Israel has absolutely no bearing on the subject. Discuss it to your hearts content on articles about the US and Israel.
The simple fact is Russia has been incredible heavy-handed in post-Soviet states since the collapse of the USSR and is aggressively attempting to incorporate various separatist states along its border in direct conflict with international law.
Jason Culligan. Israel certainly dose have bearing on this topic.
How many US Senators in Congress also hold dual citizenship with Israel? To many for comfort, we saw all this with the cheer leading on Gaza, sending cops to Israel for police training etc.
This Battle in Ukraine is about the expansion of Zi0 US Empire, the feathering of its nest ant all costs even if it drags Europe into a nuclear war. The Israel Regime is ruthless and they are pulling the strings behind this battle as well as on the other front in Syria.
Frank, your unfounded paranoia never ceases to amaze.
Can’t agree with you there Jason, all the land grabs have been by the EU, US and NATO, grabs now becoming more military with the seizure of Ukraine by a coup. Putin seems to be correct about the warlike intentions of NATO and its partners.
Jason Culligan _ Speaking of Rothschild who is paying the wages of these wars is not being paranoid.
Frank, tell us how many senators have dual citizenship with Israel?
Declan Noonan ..At least 29 are Israel dual citizen, no other country would allow this
It also dose not include the pull that the US receives from outside, those that cherry pick politicians and win elections.
And a little yeast certainly works through the whole batch of dough
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/dualcitizensushouse25oct14.shtml
Gerard, claiming that the only one grabbing land is the West is by far one of the most historically ignorant comments I’ve seen on the topic to date. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia has a long list of invasions, military interventions and violent suppression of dissent.
Jason, it is somewhat petulant calling someone’s comment ignorant while ignoring the fact that a cursory look at the situation shows land grabs and despotism is almost the sole reserve of the west and its friends.
Gerard, you do realise that Russia forcefully occupied Eastern Europe for nearly 60 years right? You also realise that Russia has been led by outright dictators or presidents with extreme levels of power for the entirety of the existence of a Russian state and that they have an incredibly long track record of outward aggression.
Pick up a history book.
As do the Americans, British,French etc etc.
Jason, Russia did not forcefully occupy eastern Europe for 60 years, that is like saying America forcefully occupied western Europe for 60 years. I fully realize that America has outwardly spread extreme right wing death systems all over the world, pick up a history book and start with Chilie
You ignore history to promote your insane desire to promote the death coult of America .
Gerard. Budapest in 56 ring any bells or Prague in 68.
Viet Nam, Guatamala, Chille Etc. Etc. You don’t make a good argument Mick.
Well done Ukraine. In spite of continuous criticism over the years of an ineffective foreign policy, Obama has really showed his teeth here. America and Europe working together have proved they still have great power.
Putin was assured by his advisers earlier in the year that they had enough foreign reserves to withstand a standoff with the West. Coupled with the truly dramatic fall in oil prices, America nearing self sufficiency, Russia is now reeling and the rouble has collapsed. Russia will keep Crimea but eastern Ukraine is a grab too far. Keep up the pressure.
Not to mention the winter has been fierce mild.. :)
Obama has really showed his teeth here? Are you kidding? 4,700 people are dead and the Russians annexed Crimea.
Cian, plays by Obama have pretty much written off any chance of a military invasion of Eastern Ukraine by the Russians. Not only would such a move cripple the Russian economy for the next decade, it would lead to the complete political isolation of Russia and could even lead to direct small-scale confrontation with the much larger and more capable NATO forces building up in Europe.
the US and EU have played their cards well.
Jason Culligan _The US and EU have played their cards well to provoke war..
Cian 4700 peopl Dead an Ukraine killed most of them.
Cian 4700 people Dead an Ukraine has killed most of them.
Isaac, any proof that the majority of the dead were killed by the Ukrainian forces?
Jason. You should know by now the Putinistas don’t do proof, provable fact or even truth.
Are the Rebels shelling there own strongholds Jason? Are they shelling themselves?
You Think Ukraine are using Nerf guns?
Isaac, the rebels also have access to mortars, howitzers and MLRS’. There’s a vast record of cities, towns, villages and fortified positions held by the Ukrainian military which have come under long-range attacks and these have caused a lot of casualties.
The way you’re talking, it sounds like you’re convinced only people in rebel-held territory are dying.
Jason, the vast majority of people being killed are in rebel held areas. This is a fact. There are hundreds of videos on Youtube showing peoples houses as ruins in the aftermath of a Ukrainian shelling and the rebels showing up with the fire brigades to help them.
I also talk to people daily who are in Donetsk and they tell me whats going on. These people are not rebels by the way, but trust me they are much more afraid of the Ukrainian army .
They run to the rebel groups for protection, food and shelter.
This is ethnic cleansing to make Russian Ukrianians a tiny minority in the new Ukraine, as opposed to almost half the population as it stands now.
There has been a lot of US intervention and investment in this Ukrainian coup – Joe Bidens son wants his payback.
The Western citizens fall for the “Putin is evil” as their opinion is moulded by the feeder news agencies.
Putin is just misunderstood…..
Sort of like Stalin
Joe Bidens son is director of a company that will Frack for Oil in East Ukriane. After those inconvenient Russian speaking Ukrainians have been cleansed from the land by constant Ukrainian shelling.
Well done people, you have been fooled.
Correction – Frack for gas.
Ukraine is the iconic mascot for standing up to bullies
Now if the Russian people could stand up to bully Vlad, the world would be a better place.
Most dont even see the corrupt side of him because their media paints him as a god and they ignore western media
Rose tinted glasses there Liam.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who had to leave their homes in East Ukraine because of Ukrainian Shelling.
Shannon, I would be interested to know how you know that Russians ignore western media? Do you know any Russians, Have you been to Russia or Ukraine? Do you know the demographics of English speakers there and the statistics of how many of them watch Western news?
No?.. Though not.
Your Armchair diagnosis of all Russians is pathetic. Believe it or not, Russians are human beings many of which are very open minded and they don’t like the way their country is headed.
Armchair diagnosis. …. Nice one but he is saying what the western people and the Western governments believe and know.
Russians don’t listen to much else only state media all controlled by kremlin.
You just have to look at RT to see its a propaganda machine for those of lower intellectual abilities in the west. Vast majority of course don’t buy into it
Charles again. I know plenty of Russians in Russia and Ukraine and they all watch western news. So your wrong there.
But hey you enjoy your vitriolic hatred of Russian people there Charles.
What happened to you ? A beautiful Russian woman shunned you for a real man?
By the way Charles how do you know all Russians are lazy and don’t want to work Like you stated in the comment the Journal (Rightly) deleted?
The world is a stage. It’s the west causing tension. I honestly think Russia wants to be left alone and the west isn’t happy because Russia won’t play by the rules the way they want, and I’m not on about Crimea.
What are you on about then?
This is exactly what he is on about.
The USSR used Eastern Europe as a buffer between itself and the European continent that had invaded it repeatedly in previous centuries.
When it collapsed Russia was given assurances that NATO would not seek to expand to the borders of Russia.
These promises have been torn up with the acceptance for membership of Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and NATO are still in Afghanistan.
Russian intervention in Ukraine is a big ‘back off!!’ to the west.
To ignore it would be dangerous.
Is it any coincidence that the price of oil is as low as it is?
I think not.
Gumbridge. One question for you.
Why did all those former Warsaw Pact countries join NATO as fast as they possibly could?
Nobody forced them to join.
Mick Jordan_ I guess it was a case of the grass being greener on the other side.
They will soon learn their “mistake” once the jack boot takes over … again.
“When it collapsed Russia was given assurances that NATO would not seek to expand to the borders of Russia.”
That’s only partially true, the US assured Russia that NATO would not actively seek to incorporate former Warsaw Pact members into NATO. It was clear to all involved that former Warsaw Pact members would be accepted into NATO should they decide to apply for membership of their own free will without coercion by NATO.
Russian intervention in the Ukraine was not a warning to the west, it was an open admission of defeat. The Russians knew the Ukraine was slipping from their grasp and made a desperate land-grab to maintain control of Sevastopol.
Poland and the baltics in particular were poor choices to admit to the EU and NATO, since the Russian people have always seen these as their turf to do with as they wish.
Catch 22 I think, Most Ukrainians as a whole wants to be sided with the west and wants the Russians out and every nation is free to decide on their own policies and align to whomever they want to be aligned with, but Russian has a history with Ukraine that only these two can understand. I don;t think there is a right move on this one because both sides have a valid point
Juan. Yes history there. But Ukrainians are smart and educated. They have western TV and the Internet. It’s either earn 300pm and know the Russian puppet government is raping them
Or…
Move into Europe and in less then one generation have a massively improved quality of life. No brainer
Charles Here is a surprise. Russians and Ukrainians are ethnically the same people. They watch largely the same TV, Listen to the same popular music, read the same magazines and have the same kids cartoons and TV sitcoms.
I know this because I have been to both countries many times.
The Irish and English are same in many ways. Same language watch same shows. So they can come here and take us over no problem? ?:) cop on
Oh I’ve been there too many times mate.
” So they can come here and take us over no problem? ?:) cop on”
I never said this Charles.
You keep making assertions that Ukrainians are somehow enlightened and the Russians are a lazy bunch of ignorant subhumans.
I am pointing out that the Ukrainians and the Russians are the same people and are as good or bad as each other.
Your the racist Charles.
Obama and america are just useing nato to continually poke russia and putin with a stick till they get a war to make the rich more rich. Its just revenge for russia backing Syria against the usa.
NATO was originally set up as a defense force created to defend Western Europe from Communism and future wars, all this has completely changed and it has now become a bloodthirsty EXPANSIONIST offensive force that creates wars by proxy to push its greedy imperialist agendas.
David WW3 won’t make anyone rich. It will make us dead though.
It will certainly make the elitist’s rich and those that are pushing the buttons, they can sit in their arm chairs the far side of the Atlantic and watch Europe burn.
No doubt when it is over the usual US Contractors Halliburton & KBR. They reaped alone $138bn from Iraq war
Frank, the only thing they’ll see in their armchairs is the flash of of a nuclear explosion, anyone pushing buttons will annihilate mankind, at least modern civilization
Man, there were a lot of misinformed comments before frank at 38 mins, and some others came up. A few pointers for the misinformed. Do you know the Good ol USA spent 5 billion to overthrow the democratically elected government in Ukraine. Do you know the coup in February was openly led by nazi elements, who now have control. Do you know the Ukraine is a busted flush that will go down the tubes next may when Russia calls in the billions they are owed from ukraine. Do you know it would be gone down the tubes already except its on life support with billions of US and EU taxpayers so called loans but in reality donations, now think about it YOUR USC, PROPERTY TAX, WATER CHARGES etc being funnelled to a coup government led by fascist thugs by the same EU that’s ducking your country dry. Now why do you think they want to get into NATO ASAP?????
I think you are massively misinformed. But you already know that and I’m not biting :)
Your wrong but happy trolling xxxx
Charles Mcdonald What Denis Maher said is 100% true. The USA will make it back with Ukraine’s valuable resources.
Ukraine was once known as the “bread basket” of Europe, this will no doubt become the GMO trash can of Europe. .
The US is spending just as much again in its attempt to overthrow Syria’s legitimate Government.by backing head hacking militants.
Stupid dangerous act. The West needs to make it clear to the Ukraine that it will not back its I’ll conceived provocation and that it expects it to engage meaningfully with Russia.
What ill-conceived provocation? A sovereign nation is free to align itself with whatever alliance it so chooses. The Russians have already forcefully occupied and seized Ukrainian territory and it is perfectly understandable that the Ukraine would turn to Russia’s traditional opponent for future protection.
Jason Culligan You seem to have a short memory. Isn’t the Good old USA currently running amok tearing Russia’s ally Syria to shreds as we speak?
I also see USA meddling in CUBA, is this an attack on Russia from another front? How long will it be before an embassy is set up as a CIA headquarters. It won’t be long before Cuba will be run amok with terrorists.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/12/23/us-cuba-deal-new-front-for-russia-war-analyst.html
Charles Mcdonald
Everyone loved Obama in America at one time.
Everyone Loved Adolf Hitler in Germany at one time.
And the Godwin Award goes to…
Ww3 is building… Ah sure look when isint it…
If NATO is stupid enough to accept them then we have WW3
They are stupid and they want WW3.
# North American Terrorist Organisation,
Frank, you claimed before that we would have WW3 if the US dared to get involved in Syria. There are currently US Air Force and US Navy aircraft bombing Syria on a daily basis yet I haven’t seen your predicted WW3 materialise.
Mick, nobody doubts they were corrupt, the point is they were democratically elected and were overthrown, plain and simple. And yes he did flee to Russia after the false flag attack by hired mercenaries shot on maidan protesters & security forces. In respect of your so called fascist element there is nothing so called about it they openly wear nazi insignia, also they don’t care about how many % they got in an election they have control of the military now, that’s all any self respecting fascist needs. 20 years mick, make that 10, mostly going to the coffers of various “coloured revolutions” I suppose the yat’s our man comment victoria nuland was found on a recording saying before he was installed too those pesky Russians must be very sneaky the way they can get top level US government officials to say things like that to suit their propaganda as you allege.
There’s a reply button for a reason.
You’re spouting rhetoric which was basically debunked in the first couple of weeks of the Ukrainian Crisis. Would it hurt to do even a quick google search before you spout incredibly out-of-date non-arguments?
Like I said Denis. At least try and add some factual truth to your arguments. But you did a least drop the stupid 5 Billion argument. And you say you don’t care about what % the Right Wing parties got in the elections but yet your entire “Nazis” argument is about who has control of the government. So you attempt to completely dismiss the centrist make up of the Ukrainian Government and attempt (badly if I might add) portray the Russian version of the Ukrainian Government as a bunch of Extreme Right Wing Nationalists intent on exterminating the ethnic Russian population in the East of Ukraine. When the actual facts show the complete opposit of the propaganda you are attempting to push.
jason you can google right sector, Svoboda and Asov battalion right now if you want to see pictures of the far right militias in Ukraine.
They are not invisible, they are right there in the open ,shelling Eastern Ukrainians daily.
Also it’s blatantly obvious that Mick Jordan and Jason Culligan are the same person.
They just so happen to have the same opinion, reply to the same comments every time, and never address each other directly. (Sure why would you talk to yourself)
Nice try there Isaac. But Jason and I are completely different people. As a many on here know. Better luck next time.
I could just as easily claim that Glen, Frank, Horgay and Isaac are all the same person as you all seem to have the same opinion. If you even bothered to look deeper you’d see that myself and Mick have even disagreed with one another in discussions on topics not relating to the Ukraine.
As for the right-wing parties, nobody is denying that they have had a presence during this conflict. What is funny though is that you seem to completely ignore the fact that there are extreme right-wing elements fighting for the “rebels” as well. You also funnily don’t touch on the fact that all leaders of the “separatists” bar one just so happen to be Russian citizens and most have past Russian Army/KGB/FSB experience.
No frank is not Glen.
But I feel b lowe/horgay is Glen
So Jason when someone replied to Mick but forgot to use the reply button why would you reply with a smart comment ” There’s a reply button for a reason.?” and then respond to the question, posed to Mick.
Sure your not Mick now?
That’s your evidence, one off-the-cuff remark to someone who’s lack of understanding of how the Journal comments section works?
I could have sworn that a public forum is there for the explicit purpose of public discussions. I’m amazed that, under your bizarre interpretation of this system, questions addressed to one poster are the exclusive property of that one person to answer and the answering of said question by another poster is proof of a double account.
Come back when you have some actual proof rather than some tenuous and baseless accusations.
The heat has been turned up a notch on the Cold War
And the heat won’t be coming from Putin’s gas.
The table has turned, might have been a millimetrically premeditated tactic or an improvised consequence of Putin’s act, but either way, I don’t think Russia can’t use gas as a weapon any longer, their economy is being hit really hard, the Rubel lost half its value, they need that gas pipe on more than never, which means the Ukrainians and Europe have secured supply and Russia lost its leverage. Brilliant, touché!
The winter has also been remarkably mild for most of Europe meaning a shut-off of supply wouldn’t be as dramatic either. For the time being all Russia can do is huff and puff.
Does anybody still believe that the “western” economic model is still the only game in town?
Look at laws being passed on a daily basis in the EU to suppress its citizens.
Spain’s gagging laws are only the start.
What other game is there? ? Solalism? ? Yeah its working a charm for north Korea.
Or communism under lenonism or marxisim lol worked out well for good auld ussr.
Capitalism works. Reward those who take a chance in business. It will always be the way because the majority want it that way. The left are normally full of dole ridden wasters.
My oh my Charles, I suppose you must keep up with current affairs by reading the Sun.
Most them on here do.
Wasn’t it the SUN that accused Putin of downing MH17 before the smoke cleared from the crash site.
Denis. Your 5 Billion story have been debunked so many times now its become a joke. The 5 billion Dollars you talk of was give to all the Ukrainian Governments over the past 20+ years.
The so called Nazi elements you claim that are now in charge of Ukraine got less that 3% of the vote in the parliamentary elections and made up of less than a few thousand that were involved in the Maidan protests. And as a coup. What coup? The members of the democratically elected parliament (including the former presidents own party) voted to impeach him on corruption charges. But he resigned and fled to Russia with the billions he stole before the impeachment proceedings were completed. So as he resigned there could nother have been a coup.
So if you are going to try and spout Russian propaganda at least try and make it look factual with some actual truth.
A touch of bitterness their Isaac. Is it because you are watching your beloved New Russian Empire collapsing before your eyes?
Isaac, what about those who have fled Westwards due to the constant shelling by “separatists” and the fear of an outright invasion by Russia? What about those who fled Crimea when the Russian army jackbooted in and took control?
I can also use loaded questions and hyperbole.
I do not love any Russian Empire. But I do not hate Russian people or Ukrainian people. There a kids being killed here.
The difference between me and you is that I do not see things in black and white as you do.
I am not stuck in some 50′s US anti commie propaganda mind space as you are.
You see Russians as the bogey man out to get Uncle Sam. I see Russians as human beings, as I do Ukrainians. And both governments are using them against each other as pawns for some globalists political gains.
Isaac. If you want the fighting to stop then demand the the Russian military withdraw from all Ukrainian territory, that the Russians stop arming the terrorists and that the terrorists themselves surrender unconditionally to the legitimately elected government of Ukraine.
Agreed Mick. Also, the Ukrainians should stop shelling their own people and start to arrest and disarm Asov battalion and other right wing militias.
Jason life in Crimea is very good now I can assure you. The Tartars have their language recognised for the first time, their holy days are now Crimea wide holidays, the pensions and welfare has doubled, the salary of many has increased significantly.
I know many people there, including Tartars and Ukrainians who are much better off financially and socially.
Ukraine never gave a rats ass about Tartars or Crimea. It has not had any infrastructure investment since the 80′s. Now Russia is giving it the investment and upgrades it needs.
Some people fled due to paranoia and because some also had something to hide from the government ( crimes, terrorist associations etc).
A few hundred fled Crimea and 1 person was shot during the stand off.
700 thousand fled to Russia from East Ukraine.
About 30K fled to Kiev from East Ukraine.
About 50K fled to Crimea from East Ukraine.
Now ask yourself, why do the vast majority of people feel safer in Russia? Maybe they are running from the Ukrainian artillery thats leveling houses
Isaac. The Asov battalion wouldn’t exist without the Russian invasion. And if the Russians withdrew and the terrorists unconditionally surrendered the Asov battalion would no longer have any reason to continue.
And as for your claim that the Ukrainians are unilaterally shelling civilians can we have some independent verifiable proof of that claim?
Wrong Mick, the Far right groups including Asov have been well known trouble makers in Ukraine for years and years.
They worship their hero, the SS Nazi Banderos who turned on his own people and fought alongside hilter massacring Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians alike.
But sure you continue to defend them.
Issac you really are desperate to the “Ukrainian Nazis” story. Yet you ignore the many many Russian Nazis fighting along side the Ukrainian terrorists.
Why west wants Putin gone: “protect the interests of the native people of the Russian Federation, 1st & foremost.”
Putin- Immigration Issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ5MhU0lIeQ
have your say