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GERALD FLEMING MADE his TV debut as a weatherman back in 1984. Large pointy sticks where the order of the day in his profession – which was, by modern standards, a comparatively low-tech pursuit.
“There’s been vast improvements in the science and technology underlying weather in my working lifetime, which is nearly four decades now,” said Fleming, who initially joined Met Éireann in 1980.
Looking at the weather service’s recent handling of Hurricane Ophelia, Fleming said there had been enormous leaps in technology and accuracy compared to, say, Hurricane Charley back in 1986.
“Everybody now looks at the weather radar if they want to plan a day out or if they’re cycling somewhere or if they’re having a picnic or playing a game of golf or farming or whatever.
“We didn’t have weather radar in 1986. We did not actually know where that rain was falling until we saw reports coming in from stations.
The weather models we were using were very coarse and could give us only a very vague estimation of the likelihood of heavy rain in the different parts of the country – now we have them much more refined, much more detailed much more localised.
So all of that science has improved hugely. If Hurricane Charley were to happen again we would hope to be able to give three or four days of notice – not just the amount of rain but those places where the rain was likely to fall and the impacts of it.
Fleming, who’s retiring from his role as Head of Forecasting at the end of the year, said he was looking forward to stepping away from the “9 to 5″, as he showed TheJournal.ie around the service’s Glasnevin HQ (see video above).
Known to TV viewers for his laid-back presenting style and trademark winking sign-off, the Wexford meteorologist stepped down from regular broadcasting almost a decade ago to concentrate on managing forecasting operations.
He said he that, as he was approaching 60 “thankfully in good health”, he had now decided to finish up with the weather service to concentrate on other interests.
Fleming won’t be stepping away from the world of meteorology entirely. He’ll keep his role at the UN’s weather forecasting agency the World Meteorological Organisation, where he’s part of an expert team “looking at how we deliver the weather to clients”.
It’s challenging, and it keeps me up to date with meteorology.
He’ll likely do other bits and pieces too, once he retires – but won’t be looking for another full time job (and he’s not interested in running for political office, for the record).
Looking back at this year in weather, Hurricane Ophelia was top of our list to ask about.
In the days after the October storm, everyone seemed to have an opinion on whether it had been as bad as expected.
“We do know certainly in terms of the damage that it certainly was more powerful than Darwin (in 2014),” Fleming said.
That’s primarily by looking at the amount of electricity customers whose power was disrupted – so it was something like 50% higher for Ophelia than it was for Darwin. That gives us a good idea of the spread and the strength of the wind, because that electricity network is one of the most vulnerable elements to strong winds.
It was also a bigger storm that affected more parts of the country – Darwin was quite contained and only affected a relatively small area but in that area it did a lot of damage.
You’d have to go back to Hurricane Debbie, all the way back in 1961 to find the most comparable weather event.
That storm travelled up along the west coast and gave us some very strong winds up in Galway and Mayo and up in Donegal but of course we didn’t have the records then that we have now, so it’s hard to compare like with like in that sense.
In years to come, we’re likely to experience more serious winter storms, Fleming said.
The likelihood is that we will get somewhat heavier rains in the winter time. As for wind strength and storm strength, the jury is still out on that – whether we are going to get more and more of that. But it’s certainly something that we are concerned about.
Met Éireann vs RTÉ
Fleming has overseen a number of changes to the forecasting system during his tenure in charge, including the introduction of the colour-coded (yellow, orange, red) warnings and the storm naming system – a joint project with the UK’s Met Office.
He stepped down from regular rostered broadcasting duties in 2009 – but, of course, remained a familiar face as he popped up on news bulletins during various floods, storms and freezes.
Ten years before that, as you may recall, he and his colleagues found themselves at the centre of a row that inflamed public opinion and resulted in RTÉ being inundated with calls from angry TV viewers.
The national broadcaster had tried to scrap meteorologists from their presenting staff and replace them with non-expert staff. It didn’t go well.
“Like any relationship there are ups and downs and that was certainly one of the downs,” said Fleming.
The decision, of course, wasn’t popular at all, and Met Éireann forecasters were soon reinstated as management reversed their decision.
The weatherman insists:
We’ve had an excellent working relationship with them ever since.
Even as the array of weather-forecasting services and apps available to the average person via their smartphone expands, Fleming says he can’t envisage in-person TV broadcasts being dropped from the main stations here anytime soon.
“So much in Ireland the weather is the first topic in most people’s conversation.
I still think people will want to see another person standing there explaining things to them, explaining the context.
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The bill will not pass because the Dail is populated primarily middle aged and elderly conservative catholic males.
The SC is the only judge of its constitutionality.
I didn’t realise Catholicism had an opinion on fatal foetal abnormalities, perhaps these middle aged catholic men need to revisit what they know about their own religion
This keeps it on the agenda and this BS is all because the Taoiseach of this country is a mouse. A scared little excuse of a politician who is afraid to let the nation speak. Him and his whipped FG chronies
I don’t think Catholicism had anything to do with all the cases where doctors got it totally wrong… Diagnosed a fatal foetal abnormality, advised an abortion and in some cases where the parents made the decision to go ahead with pregnancy gave birth to healthy babies. Whether you’re pro choice or pro life, no one can deny that that’s not scary.
No medical diagnosis is perfect!
Agreed. If someone has a fatal illness do we kill them? The medical world that I’m familiar with gives the patient the best chance or keeps them as comfortable as possible til the end.
Honestly not trying to force my opinion on anyone here… But after all, it is a place for comments! Just my own view, that if MY baby were diagnosed with a fatal foetal abnormality and would not survive before/after birth, I like to think that I would still go ahead with it. The baby is alive as long as I carry it and even if it only lives for a few minutes or a few hours after its born then the baby has the right to even that short life. I’m not God. I don’t get to decide. EVERY life is equal.
Well fair play to you Rosie, it’s exceptional that you would. But not every woman would or could! That’s why this is about choice.
@Rosie,if someone has a fatal illness and is suffering then yes,the humane thing to do would be to end their life,like we do with animals,it’s called compassion.
The baby in your scenario that lives for a few minutes / hours,where is the point in that? Do you think the baby will be grateful and give a quick press conference to summarise their brief experience? What a bizarre and cruel choice that would be,to selfishly use your ‘moral’ interpretation of a scenario to satisfy yourself whilst the newborn suffers and dies to absolutely zero benefit to itself.
I sincerely hope you don’t allow your religious views interfere with your medical work.
@Tariq,
Thanks for comment Tariq. I can’t help but hear the aggression in your comment.
1st of all, I cannot compare a human to an animal.
My views are maternal, not religious. When I say ‘I am not God’ what I mean is that I don’t choose who has the right to live or die.
I think it’s more selfish to have a termination just so I don’t have to go through pregnancy and childbirth and have no baby at the end. Wouldn’t it be easier to have an abortion? Spare me the unbearable grief of losing a child? You ask what’s the point of a life that’s only a few minutes long? Because it’s a whole life time to that baby.
‘More selfish to have an abortion just not to go through pregnancy and childbirth.’ – are you serious? You think women who have fatal foetal abnormalities don’t go through with it because of that reason alone?
It wouldn’t have anything to do with the exceptional prolonged grief they would have to go through? Or because of the risk to themselves? Take your head out of your a£se Rosie
And you would rather that I have an abortion and have it ripped apart so that it doesn’t suffer…..?
Rosie you are very strange woman VERY
Maybe. But like I said. Just my own view.
You are a very uneducated young woman! It’s a shame Rosie. You have the choice to go ahead and carry the baby to full term if you so wish, that’s your CHOICE!!!! I totally and utterly agree with your CHOICE. Allow others the same chance for CHOICE
Rosie,you can hear whatever you want in my comment,I don’t care.
You do know humans are mammals right? We are animals,maybe you need to go back to medical school.
Your views are religious,you’ve consistently employed the Americanised language imported by Iona,Youth Defence,the Anti-Choice Campaign and other radical extremist factions in Ireland.
‘Because it’s a whole life time to that baby’ – a newborn is not sentient enough to grasp what you are saying,that’s like expecting the newborn to give its opinion on paleo diets or TTIP.
Pro-choice means giving the woman the choice. Now her choice would be wrong if you disagree with it. You attack her intelligence and morals instead. Hypocrites of the highest order.
I don’t disagree with her choice, I disagree with her argument
And I also disagree with the fact that she can’t allow others to choose!
Well said,Tariq :)
It was only last week that she said the other great Youth Defence line : ‘I’m lucky that my mother didn’t abort me.’ Hilarious :)
Totally agree.
Her argument is that she would like to have the baby. She would feel guilty if she was the person responsible for its ultimate fate. That’s her choice. Her view. Her opinion. Her ethics. You don’t have to resort to belittling her to make yourself feel “righter”.
I feel guilty that she has to go through with the pregnancy, but will still support her choice!
She’s gone through nothing ..
My opinions and choices are my own and I have no problem voicing them. That doesn’t mean I’m not pro choice. I will not bash people for the decision they would make and I will not insult other people’s intelligence or belittle them because I don’t agree them. What I have said earlier is what I would do and the reasons behind them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It’s just a pity that people have to resort to rudeness because they have different views.
Tariq.. You advocate for choice. CHOICE! Rosie Murray’s CHOICE would be to go through with the pregnancy and you condemn and judge her for it.
Strange to see a group of people so willing to decide who lives and who does not.
She is talking about going through full term with a FFA ,Sinead ..You don’t know until you actually have to go through one yourself ,would you agree ?
I’m criticising the lack of logic behind that ‘choice’ Sinead,no need to try and shut down the debate,the Spanish Inquisition is over.
I have an inkling that Tariq is seeing the exact same thing that I am seeing on here at the moment -and that is the guilt shaming by the antis on here ..
Rosie is fabulous and Tariq.. So you dont support Rosie Murrays choice to go through with a pregnancy if there was a diagnosis of FFA?
It’s disgraceful Rosie,playing make believe scenario games while people in the real world are suffering,the mental gymnastics of the radical religious right.
I have a choice. Might not be the one you like. Accuse of being whatever you like. Groundless accusations. You call my religion radical. Wow.
Well said Rosie Murray.
“I don’t think Catholicism had anything to do with all the cases where doctors got it totally wrong… Diagnosed a fatal foetal abnormality, advised an abortion and in some cases where the parents made the decision to go ahead with pregnancy gave birth to healthy babies. Whether you’re pro choice or pro life, no one can deny that that’s not scary.”
You see Sinead-some of us on here can see through the bullshit of what someone is trying to do on here ..
This is simply telling women to go through a full term because the doctor might have got it wrong ..
“Rosie is fabulous and Tariq.. So you dont support Rosie Murrays choice to go through with a pregnancy if there was a diagnosis of FFA?”
Where have I said that I wouldn’t ,Sinead?
Are you gone on the wacky backy too ?
In fairness to Rosie, she is describing the choice she would personally make if faced with a fatal foetal abnormality. She is not prescribing this for anyone other than herself. It is her choice. She has not denied anyone else facing a similar situation their right to make their own choice bearing in mind their circumstances. Though her choice does not sit well with the pro-choice side, it is paradoxical that pro-choice advocates would question her choice, since it is a choice.After all there are two answers to the pro-choice question. The choice to continue the pregnancy to birth and the choice to terminate the pregnancy in the event of a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality. Surely the pro-choice advocates would not deny the personal choice of a pregnant woman when it does not agree with the other choice i.e. termination?
Not might have. Just a scary story. Very rarely get it wrong I’m sure. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. I’m not a hypnotist. There’s no conspiracy. I’m not trying to bullsh*t you. I’m not secretly working for Iona or whoever else was mentioned up above. I’m not an under cover radical right wing priestess from The Vatican City. I’m not trying to brain wash the oh so important readers on The journal. I only gave my opinion on the matter. You can relax.
Rosie
Have you ever gone through a pregnancy ?
And that is indeed an excellent question to ask,Rosie..
These are women that wanted their pregnancies and who unfortunately have now been dealt a truly horrible deck of cards ..
Just let them decide how they want to proceed & not some pretend scenario like above..
Go ahead with it so. No one is forcing you to terminate the pregnancy. On the other hand you are advocating that all pregnant women with FFA should not be allowed to choose to terminate the pregnancy. Can’t you see your arrogance and hypocrisy?.
Youth Defence? Surely you mean Yob Defence?
I wouldn’t know what to do , God forbid if I was ever in that sad situation. But I’d like to know I have a choice to do what I felt was right !
yep Sinead, and he does not like people who resort to rudeness and look at his main supporter.
I think it’s much more selfish to have a baby that will die in hours or days to fulfill your own morals or beliefs but I have no problem with you doing it as it is none of my business. You on the other hand have no problem passing judgement on others
Rosie they are pro abortion not pro choice. just ignore. Don’t get bullied out. This is just a tactic and if you get into it with them they just start talking rubbish and insulting you. I understood what you were saying and anyone who is not a militant abortion activist will too.
Someone dial WHINE WHINE WHINE as we are having ANOTHER WHINE attack !!
And what about the two young women who died in recent years, where an abortion could have saved their lives?
The only person(s) being deceitful on here are a married couple from Kerry ..
I am posting under my own name from my own account.you have a fake account Rosie.how you can call be deceitful is hilarious.
You talkin’ to me?
Of course I have a fake account on here.Just like your hubby has :) Hilarious that I outed him :)
You are talking to me now. To me. In my real account. You call me deceitful. I am posting from a real account, you from a fake one. You are obsessed with looking for my husband.
I use a fake account on here & I also use my real account on here :)
The majority of accounts are fake on here anyway ..
This is my real account. I actually am Zaphods Other Head. You busted my fake one earlier. haha. My other other head is the ruler of the Universe. I’m only here because I see The42.ie is on this site. That number is special to me. It is the answer to Life, The Universe and Everything. We all know by now that Oggie and Rosie are probably West Cork Lad’s dogs names. Oggie is a doggy and Rosie is a Rottweiler. Enough about who is who now. I have enough on my plate without a looper from Cork being obsessed with me. Off for your walkies now, Rosie.
but they are not calling me deceitful are they Rosie, you are? So you use the fake account for the bile. are you a woman Rosie? I don’t think you are. I think if you were really a woman you would have some understanding and compassion. I think you are young and this is a game to you. I might be wrong, it’s a guess. Or you are a woman very damaged by abortion.
I was trying to be reasonable earlier on in the thread below, but I see that I was wasting my time :)
It is a game to the two of ye and that is as plain as day :)
No problem with that :)
Your obsession with women’s wombs is a extremely disturbing,PatRICK .But the good news is that I know of someone that can be of great help to you in that very department :)
Poor pet :)
@Tweed Cap: Please do not insult mice!
Rosie, I am so impressed with your reply on here and the way you keep your dignity even in the face of the usual Pro choice comments that get more and more abusive because at the end of the day, they are trying to justify ending a life. Choice what is that? Why give some actions like abortion free choice but not others like killing? Why is killing an unborn child ok but not killing a born child? And most important, how long until society gets to kill a child already born with an abnormality? Remember, abortion was a shock a few decades ago and now it’s called for publicly. When society has it’s abortion, when will it want more? I don’t wish for it and neither should you.
I think it is about time that the WellWoman clinic or another family planning service hired a doctor from abroad who believes in women’s bodily autonomy to start performing abortions.
Ireland’s savagely backward laws in this regard should be ignored.
If the government refuses to address these human rights abuses on women then its hand must be forced.
I am in favour of abortion on demand until about 20 weeks of pregnancy and fertilised eggs are not equal to human women, and do not have human rights.
The doctor wouldn’t have picked up the knife and you’d have every Knight of Columbanus Garda member in the country fighting to arrest them, backed up by the Iona Institute and Cora Shelock and nuns and priests etc.
You’re dead right stiophán ignore the laws that you don’t like, especially those in our constitution
Not fair to put a doctor into that illegal position. We need to keep this issue to the forefront and pressure government on this.
Exactly.
The Irish constitution is an utterly flawed document if it denies women’s human rights.
On this issue it needs to be ignored.
An activist doctor who believes in women’s rights should start performing abortions.
The international spotlight an arrest would bring to Ireland’d human rights abuses against women would be massively welcome as it would be so damaging to Ireland’s reputation that the government might be forced to act instead of holding their moronic citizens’ convention
“The Irish constitution is an utterly flawed document if it denies women’s human rights.”
Then go and live somewhere else. you wont be missed.
“On this issue it needs to be ignored.”
Incitement to break the law. idiot.
“The international spotlight an arrest would bring to Ireland’d human rights abuses against women would be massively welcome as it would be so damaging to Ireland’s reputation that the government might be forced to act instead of holding their moronic citizens’ convention”
dont like democracy when it doesnt agree with you do you little man, how about you go live in saudi arabia, youll be thrown from a roof in no time.
If you actually had any experience raising and looking after a child you wouldnt be so damn quick to jump at executing them during pregnancy. You cannot learn from wikipedia about this so dont bother copying and pasting from it.
The majority (60+% ) of women who have had an abortion were already parents :)
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Four : Antis
The majority of drink drivers had previously driven sober.
Did they have sex after
when people bring up our constitution for reference they should remember that as it declares there is a God and we believe (even the U.S. constitution does not explicitly say this) and most of the rest of the text is also too archaic to be referenced for the present day
Can anyone please explain to me how it comes down to a woman’s bodily autonomy only, and the unborn child shouldn’t be afforded the same respect?
What’s the cut-off point?
Is it because the child is too young to have an opinion, and therefore to make and express their own ‘choice’, that they don’t deserve to be protected?
Don’t get me wrong. I believe we should have abortion available when it’s called for. But i simply don’t trust anyone in the world enough to put another person’s survival down to their “choice”, regardless of their connection to each other. Lots of children die violent deaths at the hands of their parents.
In this topic you can argue till the proverbial cows come home ,Joe ..
Where abortion is legal it comes down to when a foetus is viable & that cut off point is usually around the 20th-24th week and that is where just over 1% of abortions are carried out
93% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester ..
66% of these are carried out before the 8th week
It is entirely up to you if you believe that an embryo/foetus is given equal status or more than a woman -who could be your mother/wife/sister/daughter ..
I believe that it is a decision between the woman and her physician and no-one else.
Man, seriously, your language is very telling. I’ll say it again… a “foetus” is a person who just hasn’t come out yet. It’s not necessarily one who hasn’t fully developed.
When I was born, I was baptised immediately as I was given an almost zero percent change of survival with Respiratory Distress Syndrome. I’m kinda glad my mother didn’t take advice she’d been given earlier on and I’m sure I wouldn’t be the only one in the world.
93% in the first trimester is not enough. That should be 100% if anything.
And what I believe is as irrelevant as what you believe. It’s not up to us to give status to a life.
Stupid propaganda tactics like “i can’t believe you’d kill your mother/wife/sister/daughter” are also not helpful.
West Cork Lad is providing the facts and Joe is giving out about them.Hilarious.
The lad is saying that your mother-wife-sister-daughter is way more important than something that you have had no relationship with ..
That is the thing about antis -they see what they want to see-and then run with it ,
Best to ignore :)
Rosie/Thomas, please. The grown-ups are talking.
“antis”
For the love of…
A foetus is a ‘person’ that hasn’t come out yet ..Hilarious :)
The foetus was a lovely ‘person’ while it was in utero ..Hilarious :)
It is the correct term for you,Joe :) Get used to it :)
“The lad is saying that your mother-wife-sister-daughter is way more important than something that you have had no relationship with ..”
So the value of someone else’s life depends on how well I know them. That settles it then.
I value the relationships that I have with the family that I love dearly ,Joe..
If anyone of them came to me in a crisis, I would do anything for them, and if that meant terminating a pregnancy,then that will be the outcome..so it does settle it for me..
Well, thankfully, this isn’t Rosieland.
Your relationships with people are absolutely completely and utterly irrelevant to people’s right to life. They don’t even come anywhere near the equation.
I’d love to see you as a judge.
“That person you killed means nothing to me. You’re free to go”
VS
“That was my cousin you killed. I sentence you to be burnt at the stake”
Stop dragging me down to your level, “Rosie”. I’m done with this now.
“93% in the first trimester is not enough. That should be 100% if anything.”
So your issue is with late term abortions ..
Joe
With those examples at least you would be talking about real life events ..
But I wouldn’t be having a foetus giving evidence ..
Rosie, anyone who is dead can’t be giving evidence…
If the pro life side could trust the pro choice side even a little bit I’m sure this would have been introduced years ago. The pro choice side’s goal is complete liberalisation of abortion laws and the pro life side don’t want to give them and inch. Shame the conversation is controlled by those on the fringes and we can’t all come to a compromise.
The pro life side are afraid that if they give an inch now the pro choice side will take a mile over the next 10 years… Like the way the gates are considered opened now with the protection of life during pregnancy bill so the pro choice crowd want to take FFAs using the same bill
Yeah both sides are full of Gob$hites. It amazes me that neither side can see the other’s point of view.
So called “prolife” don’t trust women in the slightest, which is why they keep trying to control with misinformation about cancer and oxytocin. The compromise is for anti choicers to stay out of my vagina and my doctor’s surgery.
Pro-life and Pro-choice are both rubbish terms.
People who are against abortion under absolutely any and all circumstances, whatsoever, are not Pro-Life; they are seeing the world in black and white and life is not as simple as that.
Conversely, people are who are “Pro-choice” make it sound like the issue is as frivolous as “I shouldn’t have to wear those jeans if i don’t want to today. It’s my body so it’s my choice”
They’re both wrong.
It should be available when medically necessary and the mother’s life should be prioritised if it comes down to a situation like that but nobody should ever just be able to “choose” to kill someone else, regardless of whose uterus that person starts off in.
Abortion ‘by choice’ is every bit as bad as risking a mother’s life to give her baby’s a chance.
and that protestor’s sign might as well say:
“Against killing babies? Then don’t kill one. But don’t dare tell me i can’t if i want to. #mychoice”
Daisy your comments are hilarious. Where did you copy and paste that from.
Google. Who writes your comments for you?
Didn’t take long for the gob$hites to get here. Your argument is nonsense because people don’t just have rights and no responsibilities, that’s not how the world works. The current status of abortion is there for a reason, not some frivolous conspiracy against Women(you sound like and idiot Saying stuff like that). If you want to have a conversation, about it let’s do that but leave confrontational smugness at the door please.
And Joe, it’s customary to call a movement using the name that they call themselves. Anyone who uses terms like Anti-choice, anti abortion or even pro death shouldn’t be any where near an adult conversation.
Perfect terms to use though ..
“but leave confrontational smugness at the door please.”
You just called everyone with an opposing view a gob5hite, ye gob5hite.
Very few pro-life are at the complete extreme. There are valid reasons for fearing the worst. We are being told that is the goal.
‘We are being told that is the goal’ – usual anti-choice nonsense,make things up from thin air,believe everything you read on Anti-Choice sites and in Alive! Any sources for that statement Zaphods? The radical extremists always attach doomsday scenarios to any social change or progress,they use fear to manipulate the flock because they don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to using actual facts.
I hear what your saying about the pro choice side , what do you think the pro life side would agree to as a compromise
The ‘Pro-Life’ sides compromise would be the solution they used before,incarcerate women in Laundries.
I tend to agree with you Tariq,when you consider the ‘Life Institute’ morphed out of ‘youth Defence’ and that was formed in Una Bean Mhic Mhathunas house, it’s really the same people and their descendents who run the so called Pro.life agenda, the same names crop up with the same hatred for women,feminism,reproductive rights,medical science,democracy !,the E.U. ,and the dreaded sodomite agenda,even the R.Catholic church distances itself from their actions. They will strive at all costs to ensure the public never get to vote on abortion, especially after last years referendum
Very true Sean,Breda O’Brien / Conroy families and MacMathúna’s / Uí Bhroin / Cribín cabals all still have their ten fingers in the pie.
Yes Tariq, and I have a feeling it’s a very large American pie, the Standards In Public Office Commission have been rebuffed on every attempt to force them to comply with Irish laws on donations
That’s pro rape and incest Cribin, isn’t it?
“It should be available when medically necessary and the mother’s life should be prioritised if it comes down to a situation like that but nobody should ever just be able to “choose” to kill someone else, regardless of whose uterus that PERSON starts off in.”
They should have a “take your foetus to work day” LOL
Sean/Tariq, I think the reasonable “pro-life” people should accept that the mother’s life is just as precious as the unborn child’s and her life being put at risk is no good for the child anyway.
A compromise would be to make it available when it’s medically necessary, like in Savita’s case.
I think the “pro-choice” side should grow up and drop that word “choice”. It’s not suitable at all.
Doctors should be the ones to decide on the merits of each case.
It’s no good having less conscionable people, and they do exist, wearing a path to the clinic every so often instead of using contraception either. That’s just legalised serial infanticide.
Joe. You are of course right. Medically necessary (risk to life of the mother), medically humane (ffa or other doomsday scenarios for the unborn), morally humane (where sexual consent is an issue) abortions should be available. There are plenty of choices available to the other cases, both before the conception and immediately afterwards. There are options available after the pregnancy also. Why the need to treat an unborn baby like a transaction that always comes with a right to return? Even as a pro-lifer I do see abortion as a necessary choice to be available to women and couples in desperate need. The vast majority are “pro-choice” in that sense.
Tariq, this kind of thing isn’t helpful “The ‘Pro-Life’ sides compromise would be the solution they used before,incarcerate women in Laundries.”
If you really think that’s true, you’re just wrong and there’s no point anyone reading what you say. Find me one person on this island who wants to incarcerate women in laundries now and I’ll take that back.
Otherwise, please don’t bring the debate down to that level.
infanticide
1- the crime of a mother killing her child within a year of birth.
2- a person who kills an infant, especially their own child.
You sure do know how to bring discussions down to a new level yourself . LOL
West Cork lad… dunno what you’re laughing at. You didn’t exactly make a point there.
The only difference between your definition and mine is the fact that some idiots think the child is not a child until the 9 months are up.
My nephew was born after a 28 week pregnancy, 3 years ago. He was almost written off. Now he’s a very happy, very loving, little fella who loves life and seems set for great things, judging by his personality already.
28 weeks in the oven. That was enough to set him up for life, thankfully.
By the way, where did you get those definitions??
Infanticide is not a person, as your number 2 suggests, and there’s no “especially” about it.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#infanticide
“causes death of HER child being a child under the age of 12 months;
but at the time of the act or omission the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child;
or by reason of the effect of lactation consequent upon the birth of the child then;
notwithstanding that the circumstances were such that, but for this Act, the offence would have amounted to murder (See R v Gore [2007] EWCA Crim 2789);
“Infanticide can be an alternative verdict or charged in its own right. The child that is killed must be the child to whom the BIRTH etc. refers, and the child must be under 12 months old. The death can be by either act or omission.”
Hope this helps Joe
It does, thanks. It proves exactly what I was thinking. Infanticide is not a person, there is no “especially” about it, and you don’t read things carefully.
You don’t know the difference between a zygote and a person..But I won’t hold that against you ..
You seem so wise. Can you put two sentences of your own together?
Thank you,Joe. I just did.
Joe we agree therefore on much, when I see the life institute using their money to lobby and even provide crèches in colleges and universities, the provision of subsidised child care for single and married families, then we might agree on more,I keep my nose out of other people’s consciences, life might begin at birth for some at conception for others, but as any parent knows the real work begins once the child is born, the important issue is choice,and real choice, and choices once made must be supported.if both are to matter both Must be supported to reach their full potential, otherwise society has failed
Hi Sean,
Thanks for engaging in real conversation.
I have to say, though, if there are still people out there who actually genuinely believe that life begins at birth, then they probably also think the world is flat and other such equally ridiculous things.
Life begins long before birth, and that’s not a case of just being true for some people. It’s a scientific fact and anyone who doesn’t accept that doesn’t belong in an intelligent conversation about it.
West Cork Lad seems to think my nephew was a zygote the day before he was born.
I’m guessin’ he’s just trolling though ‘cos surely people aren’t really that stupid.
I’ve come to the conclusion that what people believe is is many cases more important to them that the real issue,the hate and bile I’ve seen written on here mostly confirms this,these two sides will never meet or agree, and in the meantime women, girls and couples married or not are going through very difficult situations, our politics have failed these people, I for one would welcome a citizens assembly made up of ordinary people to put forward some reasonable solution, It sadly won’t please all camps, but it has to be better than counter protest and counter argument interested only in shouting down and diminishing the opposing view. Both sides loose that argument, and sadly the issue or in this case only society is diminished or embarrassed.as with last year vote there is a silent majority of compassionate people in Ireland ,Your nephew sounds delightful, my count is 17 and one very special one.
West Cork Lad seems to think my nephew was a zygote the day before he was born.
Nope,not at all,Joe ..
The day before your nephew was born he was a foetus .
Fair points, Sean, but a lot of the world’s problems stem from what people mistakenly believe.
A lot of people die for religious and ideological wars where all sides are convinced that they’re the ones who are right.
I think we should at least err on the side of caution, being that the “foetus” is more aware than people realise and that “it” can feel pain earlier in development than some of us might have known.
For that reason, I think every case should be examined on its individual merits by at least one credible medical professional (preferably a team of 3) to offer SOME sort of protection to the “foetus” (which, we should explain for WCL’s benefit, is a person in utero).
17, by the way? Wow. Christmas must be great craic! :)
Zygote-Embryo-Foetus ,Newborn,Infant,Toddler,Child,Adolescent,Young Adult ,Adult,Geriatric.
Different stages :)
Christmas is a blast, but summer Sunday’s are best, as for medical professionals, I think each case is examined on a individual basis, by a woman and firstly her g.p. And then her gynaecologist/obstetrician, if any doubt in diagnosis presents naturally any woman should and must seek a second , third opinion, and then be supported in dealing with a dreadful decision process, one I would not like to make myself if I’m honest, however the decision of her choice has then to be respected, all I can offer is my respect, and compassion what ever she decides. Great discussion Joe, thank you.
Very well said, Sean. Agreed on all fronts.
Enda’s right.
The Bill is unconstitutional.
It won;t stand the test of time.
Don’t recall you being appointed as a supreme court judge Odhran…..
Oh, thats right, you’re not. So you aren’t qualified to make that call.
For Connelly, it’s possible to know a bit about the law without being a Supreme Court judge!
Listen here you Bolshevik plonker, no one cares about your ideas regarding the “working” class. Maybe stop sucking Paul Murphy’s big one and get a job.
George: How do you know he doesn’t have a job?
@For Connolly.
I suppose the converse would also be true………. if my memory serves me right you’re not of that legal standing either..I’m sure you would have mentioned the fact previously.
(open to correction on that one)
Surprised that you didn’t use your Cormac account with that one ,Odhran/TopCat..
But it’s up in the air.
Some lawyers say it contravenes it, others say it doesn’t!
@Francis.
Is that you Dell, Rosie, Fintan etc etc?
Genuine Independents ( as opposed to the fake ones) punching above their weight in the Dail and well above the normal party reps as usual.
@ odhran : “I suppose the converse would also be true………. if my memory serves me right you’re not of that legal standing either..”
Correct, and as such I’m more than happy to leave it to the experts i.e. the supreme court, to make a ruling, instead of the government hiding behind an opinion.
What is a fake Independent?
Article 30.1 of the Constitution.
“There shall be an Attorney General who shall be the adviser of the Government in matters of law and legal opinion, and shall exercise and perform all such powers, functions and duties as are conferred or imposed on him by this Constitution or by law,”
Has Shane Ross now taken upon himself the role of constitutional anarchist supreme?
Odhran: I don’t think Shane Ross has EVER been in The Supremes!!
Is this the same AG that has made so many other errors of judgment!!!!!
A guy in my local knows the law better than she does.
The current AG is a political puppet
For Connolly Roche v Roche 2010 judge Denham outlined the issues that makes this bill unconstitutional the use of the word unborn in the 8th amendment is the issue. So the courts have ruled quite clearly and it is very obvious why the bill is unconstitutional. Once a fetous is capable of being delivered there will be complications. His judgment working is below
“Both language versions refer to birth or being born this the fact of being born is or birth is a factor in both versions. The beginning of life is not the protected term it is the unborn, the life capable of being born that is protected, the capacity to be born or birth defines the right protected”
By that logic the unborn could relate to ejaculated sperm or an unfertilised egg, where does the line get drawn constitutionally?
Odhran is correct. This proposal is currently unconstitutional. The answer is simple. Repeal the 8th Amendment to the constitution and allow TDs a free vote on compassionate legislation.
@ Odhran: Cheers for proving my point from the other related thread. The AG is merely an ADVISOR. She issues opinions, nothing more. The final arbiters on constitutionality should always be the supreme court.
Seeing as though you like quoting the constitution (selectively)….
Article 26
1° The President may, after consultation with the Council of
State, refer any Bill to which this Article applies to the
Supreme Court for a decision on the question as to whether
such Bill or any specified provision or provisions of such Bill is
or are repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision
thereof.
AN other an unjeculated sperm or unfertilised egg are not capable of being born until joined. The Roche v Roche case related to IVF eggs.
This simple reality is as long as the 40.3.3 exist in the constitution every single termination has a potential to be unconstitutional
Well, considering my contention has not been disproven (not on this thread anyway) I would argue that my contention still stands.
Also the lack of a definition of “incompatible with life outside the womb” in the bill is a big issue, if a fetous is incompatible with life outside the womb and incapable of being born maybe the bill is legal and acceptable, although no such medical definition matches this scenario.
Let’s do it properly repeal the 8th have a sensible defined bill in place to replace it immediately wth a well outlined approach to the legality and access to terminations
Nice try ,Top Cat ..
I don’t answer to anyone of those accounts that you have mentioned .. But I have seen you making the blooper of answering back with your Finbar account instead of your Top Cat one .
Oh shut up for goodness sake and take your crazy conspiracy theories over to Youtube where you’ll be right at home.
Jeez!
Why do I always attract the loonies?
Nice try again ..
Anyway.
In respect for the rest of the community can we not now engage in a nonsensical discussion based on nothing more than the paranoid ramblings of your subconscious mind.
Cheers.
Where did you copy & paste that one from ?
I’m seriously impressed..
Oh just go away, I haven’t time :-)
More importantly, how does he know Paul Murphy has a big one???
@Tariq.
Absurd.
Absolutely absurd.
Not even worth a response.
Oops,too late Enoch.
Sure.
That’s me on the grassy knoll there………..
” it’s possible to know a bit about the law without being a Supreme Court judge!”
This is Tommy/ Oran/ Cal we are talking about..
If I miscarry at 14 weeks (for example), the State doesn’t issue me with a birth and death cert for the child I won’t have.
Why is it that it doesn’t count as a person then, but I have to risk dying of sepsis while I’m miscarrying, as the foetus’ right to life somehow trumps mine?
Make abortion FREE SAFE & LEGAL, repeal the eigth!!!!
They don’t issue a death cert because the baby’s birth wasn’t registered. It’s a legal issue which has no bearing on life.
Lauren
The foetus right to life doesn’t trump yours. The 8th amendment upholds that.
Some babies diagnosed with FFA have been known to live minutes, hours, weeks, months. Everyone deserves a chance a life no matter how “incompatible” society has deemed them.
I’m singing that to the tune of the Scientist . Beautiful words by the way :)
So you want to force women with a FFA diagnosis to go full-term and just see what happens because statistically the odd one lives for a few minutes,just so you can sit in your armchair and feel all warm and fuzzy inside,go outside and check out the real world buddy.
Not just a few minutes. A friend of mines baby was not supposed to survive the birth. He survived a month..they got to bring him home and spend all that time with him. He got to meet his parents, brother, grandparents. Is it not better to meet your child and love them even if for a few minutes then never meet to them at all. If there is one thing a person is going to feel “fuzzy” about as you so eloquently put it, its their children.
and how much of that life is spent in agonising excruciating pain? how is it fair to the child that it must suffer?
And good luck to them on the month that they got to spend with their child ..
But that doesn’t mean jack shit to the women that WANT to spare their and their foetuses from anymore suffering than is necessary ..Why is this such a difficult thing for antis to grasp?
“And good luck to them on the month they got to spend with their child” – you sound so sympathetic to their situation Rosie. Losing a child is one of the most painful things someone will ever experience. To spend a month with that child rather than having nothing at all can be very healing experience and even help with the grieving process in the aftermath of the childs death. It also leaves the parent with living memories of their child that they never would have had otherwise. My friends baby was obviously not in pain….modern medicine being what it is nowadays the doctors were able to make sure of that as they would be able to in most if not all cases of “fatal foetal abnormality”. My friends baby did not suffer at all so please stop making presumptions that are completely untrue.
Rosie
For the first time ever I’ve looked at your Twitter account.
I would encourage others to do the same.
Rosie.
You are disturbed.
I take no joy in saying that.
You need help.
Seriously unhinged.
You have taken reasoned debate to another level.
What is going on in your head to have such stuff on your account?
that was their choice to bring that child into the world, to watch it fade away, and to grieve the loss. not everyone wants to or should be forced to making that same choice.
and last time i checked, infants aren’t capable of communication, so you’ve absolutely no idea to what degree that child suffered or was in pain. you’re making an assumption because it is comforting to you and eases your conscious.
reported the photo loads of times. she is posting under 3 separate accounts. one of which is followed by Satanist Ireland. I think she is a very damaged person and I think she is a very dangerous voice here. I honestly believe she should not be allowed post on the journal.
Chris believe it or not medical professionals have ways of assessing whether or not someone is in pain. Also babies communicate through a process called crying. If her baby was in pain he would have cried a lot, he was capable of that but he didn’t. I can assure you this baby was not in pain and my friend was assured her baby was not in pain..before or after he was born. Please stop inferring that he was. Most children born with FFA (and I use that term lightly as it is not an official medical term) do not suffer. The doctors and nurses will make sure of that.
these babies are given a substantial amount of palliative care, which often means high levels of narcotic pain relief so that they don’t cry. this doesn’t mean that they are not in pain, or that they are not suffering. it’s funny that you mention “medical term”s when you’re clearly unaware of the actual research into the area.
WHINE WHINE WHINE
“For the first time ever I’ve looked at your Twitter account.
I would encourage others to do the same.”
Thank you Tom -as that was the whole idea of setting up my twitter account :) So nice of you :)
“reported the photo loads of times.”
Are the photos still up ? Yes ? No? Poor pet :) Reality hurts :)
“she is posting under 3 separate accounts. one of which is followed by Satanist Ireland. ”
Just the one account pet :)
You do seem to try and control everything :)
“I think she is a very damaged person and I think she is a very dangerous voice here. I honestly believe she should not be allowed post on the journal.”
Pop psychologist and internet whine expert gets it 100% wrong again :)
Rosie has never had to take any medications for psychological problems as she never had any reason to do so ..
“If” Rosie ever had any problems, she would of course go to one of her best friends :) to talk about it :)
It must be horrible for you to be getting no where trying to control what photos I put up-or what I post on here ..
Give it a rest, as you are really coming across as a control freak
Nice comment that you posted on the ‘comment on the week’ .At least it wasn’t another whine…Oh wait :)
Rosie
You’re a fruitcake.
Yes Chris he was given the required care. He wasn’t suffering in the womb so he didn’t require it then. When he was born he was given pain meds if and when required. He was human. He’s entitled to that type of time and care as much as the next person.
Rosie
I wouldn’t have you as a friend you’re so strange. I would be suspicious of your friends also.
Tom
My friends are all in the medical field :)
All your friends?
Did you meet them whilst getting therapy?
Lots of strange people in the medical field also. That point is irrelevant and proves nothing.
She’s an abortion fetishist, Tom. The rest of the gang too. West Cork Lad (apparently a Mental Health worker with a passion for bullying women and gloating when he upsets them), Oggie (a Satanist), Sea View (an English Schoolboy here to upset people). All for the birds and in need of help. Bullies and twisted the lot of them.
Never had therapy as there has never been a need for it , Tom :)
Zaps the womb watcher extraordinaire :)
You’re starting to sound very like that whine merchant from the Kingdom :)
You’ve been busted PatRICK :)
Therapy is ok Rose.
Nothing to be ashamed of.
Agree with you,Tom :)
I’ve been thinking of starting up a group for people & counselling sad people that waste their lives away worrying about women’s wombs :)
I might call it : WWWNHT =Women Womb Watchers Need Help Too :)
You’ve busted nothing but your mind Rosie. You are unhinged, Tom is right there. You do need help. I would use the word vulnerable if you weren’t so dangerous. I don’t think you’re a “poor pet” but you are a sick puppy.
“He is a self-proclaimed Egyptian and is being tried as such by their justice system. What’s the problem?” -PatRICK Hurley on April 12th 2016 @12:14 :)
“He is a self-proclaimed Egyptian and is being tried as such by their justice system. What’s the problem?” -PatRICK Hurley just 1 HOUR AGO :)
Busted :)
Oops! The last one was by a lad called Zaphods Other Heads :)
Rosie is too cute for you Zaps :)
Still a fruitcake.
Haha. You are in desperate need of a life. Too cute? Sure you’re fabulous. You tell us, West Cork lad tells us, you must be fabulous altogether. The best looking nut bag in Inchadoney. Find a tree to dance naked around with your buddies. There’s even a song for you “Finger of birth-strangled babe, ditch delivered by a drab. Eye of newt and …” I’m sure you know the rest. Take an extra tablet today. You seem very highly strung.
You’re a bit obsessed with who people are Rosie. A very paranoid person. You’re buddy West Cork Lad, who works with whiners and blah-blahers could tell you that you probably have a paranoid personality disorder. You have a hefty victimisation and persecution complex. That’s why you isolate yourself at the extremes of arguments. You think people are against you because you are extreme. It suits you to feel persecuted for your beliefs. The more we disagree with you the more it feeds into your cycle of persecution. You’re a cliché, you’re page one of book one of any psychology course. Don’t be getting all obsessed now. It makes you look weaker.
if you are going to post a pic of a foetus why not a real one Rosie? there is nothing real about the pic you are posting there. you must see the foetus as very powerful if you need to warp the face .you are not dehumanizing you are demonizing. why? It is either something or it is nothing. According to you it is nothing but we both know that is not how you really feel is it? you are making it a monster because it is the only way you can deal with the reality. you are no woman’s rights activist. if you cared about a woman’s wellbeing then it would be all women. You know you upset many women with the pictures you post and that is why you do it. To keep them out. no one is allowed say they regret their abortion. No consideration for women who have had miscarraiges. you are an abortion activist and that has nothing to do with choice. you get pulled up on anything it’s rambling with cork lad, or childish insults and goading. this is not a game and you are not an activist.
Your therapist is not your friend Rosie.
I just throw facts out there :)
95% of women do not regret having had an abortion
Those that did went on to say that it was the right decision at that time in THEIR lives
Source : http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0128832#sec013
“The Task Force concluded that there is no credible evidence that a single elective abortion of an unwanted pregnancy in and of itself causes mental health problems for adult women. The research consistently found that the backgrounds and circumstances of the women who seek abortions vary. The Task Force found some studies that indicate that some women do experience sadness, grief and feelings of loss following an abortion and some experience “clinically significant disorders, including depression and anxiety.”
Source :http://www.apa.org/about/gr/issues/women/mental-health-and-abortion.aspx
Stop with your constant whining as it is really annoying :)
Say hi to Zap :)
“Your therapist is not your friend Rosie.”
Don’t have a therapist :)
But I do know one really well :)
yes I agree with you .it is their choice but I have seen you tear a woman apart here in the journal when she said she regretted her abortion. The pic is upsetting. when it is said to you, you go and make fun of it. you don’t care at all about women. pro choice means women have the right to choose. Anytime and everytime a woman says her choice would not be abortion you attack relentlessly. do you care that posting pictures like your profile picture upsets women who have had miscarraiges? No, not at all. In fact it has been said to you a few times. what did you do? Attack. Please explain how you are pro choice. you are not. You are pro abortion. If a pregnant woman said to you she had a sore toe you would advise abortion. Rosie you are like someone obsessed. If you can get everyone to see abortion the way you do and the foetus as this evil entity then in your head you would be right. You would be a good person. Rosie you say you have friends in the medical field. If that is true ask them about the pics you post. Most pregnancies are wanted, the foetus is treausered and steps are taken to ensure it thrives. I seriously doubt women who have abortions see the foetus as evil or warped. why do you?
Not a good one Rosie.because your Twitter page would be very different.
Aine
Rosie is disturbed.
There is probably a story there behind this behaviour..
I won’t go into explaining why there is a lot of people don’t believe that particular tale ..
I will agree with you in saying that my profile picture is there to annoy people..
But as for the others it’s put up as fact against people that post pictures that are not true ..
I am pro choice through and through and made this account especially to go up against the bull that people spread .Especially the bull that you see posted on this site ..
There will be people delighted to see my photos and there will of course be people that won’t be ..
You can play a part in that by not directing people towards it ..
As a gesture I will take down my profile picture and replace it with something that won’t bring attention to anyone ..But that is as far as I am willing to go
Tom
There is no story ..
Sorry if that has just ruined the thoughts that are going on in your little head ..
Rosie
Thank you.
In my dealings with you I feel it’s the first time you engaged without just replying with a smart answer.
Regardless of anybody’s view, abortion is a very serious topic and should never be a subject of fun.
My own view is that abortion is not a religious issue. Sure, the church have a view but leaving that aside, we should not be afraid to deal with it head on.
Most people would struggle to sit through watching what happens in abortion. I’m frequently accused of being obsessed with the horror of it but if pro choice people thing abortion is ok, they should not shy away from it.
Abortion isn’t just popping a tablet. Abortion is a vile procedure where the little body is torn apart and suctioned.
Can we all take 5 mins to just think about that.
Tony Blair is all over the news this evening apologising for starting a war in Iraq that led to the loss of an estimated 2 million people.
Most people are rightly horrified.
Why are many of those people not horrifies with abortion?
I believe most would, if they contemplated what really happens.
Very little goes on Tom, a small tube is inserted and it is basically vacuumed out. Nothing visually vile. It has everything to do with religion as that is where the entire law of anti-abortion came from. There is no separation when that is the beginning history.
And what makes you think these children are in excruciating pain ? Who told you that ?
the whip system is ridiculous. td’s should be allowed to vote according to what represents the views of their constituents.
What I can’t understand is why it can’t just be personal choice? As simple as that. How is that so hard to fathom? Your body, your choice. Why do the so called pro-life side assume they are in any position to tell a woman what choice to make regarding her pregnancy in any case? Will you help raise the baby after? Wonder how he/she is developing? Wonder what life they has, and after their welfare? To me, it’s more pro-birth, not pro-choice. I completely understand the emotion attached to it, but no one is more emotional than the mother who has to make the choice. People need to mind their own business. It’s not a ‘one size fits all’ issue. You don’t know about people’s lives, their situations. This issuereally, really gets to me. Women should not be suffering like this in this day and age, Please don’t revert with ‘So it’s OK for the baby to suffer?’ as this is not a valid argument. In the case of an FFA, do you know how much the baby is suffering? I truly can’t believe this is still up for debate, and all the while the suffering continues.
Clare
Your analogy is simplistic in the extreme. Woman’s body woman’s choice. That is overtly simplistic.
If it was just down to the woman what happens with her body then it would be OK to abort the baby 1 week before its born. Clearly that would be most unusual but I’m just using it to highlight the point that it isn’t just about the woman.
Simplistic analyst is meaningless.
there is no argument, just facts from the choice side, and rhetoric and emotion from those that want to shut down discussion. thankfully, the american right cannot bus in young women to vote on the constitution, so young women will eventually get the right to vote on this as the religious civil servants die off, and it gets put to the people. the young women who are educated in these matters are all of voting age, and while the middle aged men want elections to be about taxes and water, these will be aware of their TDs voted in this way, and (alongside their partners/husband/friends) vote them out. the last election was a start of this with the upsurge in anti establishment votes. this wasn’t to bring about a socialist utopia, but rather because the elected officials didn’t listen. shut down the vote on choice (including the preposterous assembly and blocking votes on FFA), and the people will make you listen the only way you understand.
Whether you agree or disagree with abortion, the placard in the picture has got to be the most trite and inhuman argument of all “Against abortion? Then don’t have one”
If you don’t like Gin and Tonic, don’t have one, may be fine; but to treat the destruction of a human life so casually and without proper regard is just depressing.
I agree Joe.
Look at the state of the woman with the placard. Angry feminist head on her.
I think you might be confusing female with feminist there Tom.
This is the biggest crime against humanity.
Seriously, Tom, do you just spout bullshit to get a reaction?
Abortion is the biggest crime against humanity?
Is there an actual human being behind this ‘Tom’ or is it some kind of irrational-nonsesnse-bot we’re all dealing with?
Seamus
In 2014 alone, in England and Wales, 180,000 + babies were aborted.
Does that not disturb you?
No not at all, 180,000 couples made a decision that was right for them and their lives, and, luckily, your moral standing on it had zero impact on their lives.
Seamus.
I’m just calling a spade a shovel.
I’m calling it as it is.
You’re way is a convenient way of looking at it.
Scott Peck (the road less travelled) also wrote a book called ‘People of the lie’.
We meet these people in all walks of life. These are people who refuse to look at the consequences of their actions and will seek to justify and pass blame for their own shortcomings.
We see this all the time on the issue of abortion. A typical scapegoat will be the church. The church is far from perfect but the shortcomings and sometimes overbearing views of the church are used to justify abortion.
If the church closed shop tomorrow we are still left with the same dilemma which is the justification in ripping a foetus apart.
I know I’m quite blunt here but let’s not shy away from the truth. Let’s face this subject head on and not pretend.
Also
It’s probably more like 90,000 couples.
If you don’t understand I can explain.
Let’s not pretend that you are a puritanical control freak, Tom, it is none of your business, does not impede on your life and thus it is wholly up to the woman and possible father to make that choice if they had that choice. Apart from that, there is no circumstance where your (belief) should be transposed onto another person.
Padraig
Do you oppose wife beating or should you stay silent because it’s none of your business what goes on in another mans home?
It is my business and I am entitled to my view thank you.
Not really the same thing, is it Tom? A man beating his wife in their home would be assault, anyone with a decent bone in their body would do their utmost to bring that to the attention of the proper authorities so it could be dealt with.
What is not your business is what a woman decides to do with her pregnancy. The fetus in her womb is not your concern. It has nothing to do with you. Nobody gives a damn about the fluffy nice feeling that you get when you feel you’ve fought the good fight against abortion.
No one cares.
We can go back and forth like this all day, it won’t change the fact that we are changing as a nation and that outdated, archaic beliefs such as the ones you seem to hold so dearly, will be a thing of the past very soon. If it were put to a vote, you would lose.
I am Pro Life and Proud.
No body cares.
I am Pro Life and Proud.
Eugenics
This report presents statistics on abortions carried out in England and Wales in 2014.
Total number • The total number of abortions was 184,571. This was 0.4% less than in 2013 (185,311) and 0.6% less than in 2004 (185,713).
Abortion rates • The age-standardised abortion rate was 15.9 per 1,000 resident women aged 15-44. This is 0.2% lower than in 2013 and 6.4% lower than in 2004 (17.1); the lowest rate for 16 years. • The abortion rate was highest for women aged 22 (at 28 per 1,000). The highest rate in 2013 was also for women aged 22 (at 30 per 1,000). • The under-16 abortion rate was 2.5 per 1,000 women and the under-18 rate was 11.1 per 1,000 women. Both lower than in 2013 (2.6 and 11.7 per 1,000 women respectively) and in the year 2004 (3.7 and 17.8 per 1,000 women respectively).
Location and funding of abortions • 98% of abortions were funded by the NHS. Of these, two thirds (67%) took place in the independent sector under NHS contract, up from 64% in 2013
Gestation • 92% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation, 80% were at under 10 weeks compared to 79% in 2013 and 60% in 2004.
Method of abortion • Medical abortions accounted for 51% of the total. This was slightly higher than in 2013 (49%), and far higher than in 2004 (20%). This is the first year that there have been more medical procedures than surgical procedures.
Ground E abortions • 3,099 abortions (2%) were carried out under ground E (risk that the child would be born handicapped).
Repeat abortions • 37% of abortions in 2014 were to women who had already had one or more abortions.
“Repeat abortions • 37% of abortions in 2014 were to women who had already had one or more abortions.”
Can you at least give your sixpence worth on : why & who is having these repeat abortions ..
Bit boring otherwise
Why red thumb facts?
This has got nothing to wit fatal foetal abnormalities It is just a way for Mr Wallace & his girlfriend to keep there names up there along with a few more independents.
That folks is the only reason it is been put forward it is all about votes
The know the bill wont pass but want there names on acres of print .
They care as much about Mothers or Babies with fatal foetal abnormalities as they do about paying tax
I
You’d wonder what the debate here would be like if everyone had to identify themselves …
#somethingwrongsomewhere
BORING
mick looks pregnant himself
Why waste any more time on this when Irish people would prefer to see sick children suffer for their entire lives. They don’t mind sick kids having to go through operation after operation simply to adhere to religious beliefs of their parent or parents. Satisfying a parent need to mind a sick child is far more important than the quality of life for the kids.
This has nothing to do with religion. To blame religion is to abdicate responsibility.
The is at the core of human rights.
This is about the right to life.
If the 8th repealed it will lead to abortion on demand.
Of that there is no doubt as we will have taken the biggest step of all, which is deciding, who lives and who dies.
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