You can make that argument (no-one said anything to the contrary) but my reply to Daisy’s predictable, immediate attack 8th amendment is still true

Here it is again; there are very few jurisdictions where an abortion would have been legal at 5 months.

Nice how she expressed such sympathy for the victim though, eh?

@ Rebecca – I also don’t know how anyone could think that a 10 year old getting an abortion is not a risk to both health and mental health (you left out that part). I haven’t actually read that she wanted an abortion, so we should assume she didn’t (although I could be wrong). Lets not forget about Miss C here, who has a very similar story – raped when a child and actually forced by the state to have an abortion. Miss C has since then been brave enough to come out and say how she never wanted an abortion – that she never knew what it was, or how it would affect her later in life. Miss C is now bringing the state to court.

Even if she didn’t want an abortion the choice wasn’t hers to make. She’s a child. An abortion should have been given to her.

Wow. forced abortion. I wouldn’t even try to argue with someone who thinks forced abortions not only ok but mandatory. just wow.

I don’t think forced abortions are okay. But as someone who was raped at 12 years of age I can safely say that had I have gotten pregnant I would have asked for one or at least expected to have had one.

Woman in the C Case begs to differ. She was forced to aborted her child and his haunted to this day. Abortion should be forced on nobody especially 11 year old girls.

One person being haunted by her abortion doesn’t mean that they are all going to be like that.

At the end of the day here an 11 year old child was raped and became pregnant. She shouldn’t have had to have the child. An abortion should have been a choice. No child should be having a baby especially a rapists.

There you have it; forced abortions get twice as many green as red thumbs from the choice-loving readership of the journal

Never mind that the girl was assessed by psychologists and medical doctors…

Forced abortions because “bodily autonomy” is so last month.

There’s a big difference between a ‘forced abortion’ and giving an abortion to a child who was raped. So folks who are opposed to abortion should women and children who are raped be forced to have a child they neither wanted or want? Seriously how anyone can think it’s okay to deny a child or woman whose been raped an abortion actually scares me. I am not pro abortion. I am pro choice and I have to say that some of the pro lifers need to remember that a foetus should come second to the rights of the woman or child carrying it.

Carol your above comments basically said she should have got one whether she liked it or not. You can’t force your thoughts/beliefs/experience on someone else because it’s maybe how you felt or what you think is right for the child or how you would have reacted. As someone who has had an abortion you have no idea what it is like. To put a child through that especially after rape is crazy. Also you won’t even acknowledge that miss C had the abortion and is worse then ever. Do bad she is bringing the state to court. But people who are pro abortion now want more abortion then ever. Forced. Whether you like it or not. Whether it’s in your best interest or not. Next time listen to the evidence. Thank god for the baby that was born you were not around.

I never once said that Ms C didn’t have the abortion and is affected by it. What I said was that one person being affected by it doesn’t mean everyone who has one is. Also whilst I am not advocating forcing an abortion info think an 11 year old Child should have had one.

Also your comment about thank god I wasn’t around is ridiculous. I wouldn’t have had a say in the care and how do you know I haven’t had an abortion??

You also don’t know that she wouldn’t have been affected so I don’t know why keep saying she should have had an abortion. Keep in mind that you are talking about a person, a human that is alive and kicking but that you think does not have a right to be here just like you, me, everyone. Nobody is better then the baby because of how they were born. Would you say it to the baby’s face – ‘you shouldn’t be here because you should have been aborted’. As far as we can tell from the article & other articles the child is now caring for the baby which suggests she is glad the baby was born. Also I was talking hypothetically that is the child was in your care the baby probably won’t be here right now. So for that baby’s sake I bet she is glad your weren’t.

Listen Mucky I am not getting personal and you are so I am done.

Well said Rebecca.

“The young girl C. is now 13 ½ years of age. She was brutally raped by an adult male on the 27th August, 1997, and became pregnant as a result. She is a member of the travelling community and one of a family of twelve. The evidence before the District Court indicated that she lived in particularly squalid conditions which were quite unlike the conditions in which most travelling people lived. The alleged rapist is also of the travelling community and a long-standing friend of the family. It is not necessary to go into the facts in too much detail. It is sufficient to say that the girl was very severely traumatised by the rape and there was a well-founded view that the behaviour of her parents, the applicants A. and B. after the rape did not correspond in various respects to the kind of behaviour one would expect of parents in such appalling circumstances. It was in this context the temporary care orders were sought and made, though no permanent care order has yet been made. With the approval of the parents, the girl C. has been with a foster mother who has her own family some fifty miles away. The foster mother is a loving and caring person and would be happy to support and abide by the wishes of C. in relation to her baby, that is to say the foster mother would be supportive of a decision to keep the baby or a decision to have an abortion. The girl at all times has wanted to have an abortion because she is quite unable to relate to the baby inside her and cannot accept and claims that she will never accept that that baby is really hers. For quite some time the parents and particularly the father were not only supportive of the idea of an abortion but were advocating it. They had doubts about this at times however and ultimately changed their minds and opposed any idea of termination of pregnancy. It is clear from the evidence in the District Court that although the mother is now absolutely opposed, the father’s opposition is qualified and that he would favour it if otherwise his daughter was going to take her own life. ”
http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/1997/176.html

Are you sure that C is against it? Or has she been made to feel stigmatised because she did it and now regrets it because her parents were so opposed? After all, it was they who took the court action.

All available evidence suggests that the reason some women react negatively to having abortion is either pretty existing mental health issues, or the feelings of being judged by those who disagree with their decision. It’s entirely likely the only reason she is “bravely speaking out” now is because she’s had the dubious honour of being shamed and guilt tripped into adopting a different view.. I mean, you guys have no qualms about calling women who abort “murderers” so it’s really not beyond the realms of possibility.

Pretty? My apologies, prior.

AAAAARGH

All part of its agenda

John Payne, sorry to burst your bubble but when it comes to the suppression of free speech and political corruption I’m afraid that Ireland is in the penny halfpenny league. That may be why the Journal publishes articles like this instead of article comparing Ireland to other perfidious countries because unfortunately for you and many other who believe that we are the worst little country in the world, we actually come out well against most other countries.

Ironically while the same thing could in theory happen in Ireland the little girl concerned has a constitutional right to travel abroad for an abortion, unlike Paraguay.

John R, sorry to burst your bubble but you have clearly misinterpreted the point my comment was trying to make.

This article, while it is completely horrific and no 11 year old should ever have to endure such and ordeal, has clearly been posted by the journal as a snipe at Ireland’s abortion laws. It is another part of the journal’s politicised agenda.

I love my country, however we are governed by a corrupt shower of self serving cronies who are in bed with bankers and property developers. My point was why the journal does not draw comparisons with this and other articles around the world.

No, we do not rate against some of the more corrupt countries of the world, and yes we do alright. Your point of having the right to travel for a foetal termination is well placed and is another reason why the journal has failed in the attempt to draw comparisons.

For the record, I do not believe we should have abortion on demand but we definitely need to establish exceptions to the rules, as in this case!

That was my red thumb btw.

The journal weren’t “trawling the Web” this was a big international story, reported on by most major news outlets – why? Because most people find the idea not only a child being raped abhorrent, but the idea that she was then forced to become a mother before even being in her teens is shocking.

But hey – obviously because it shows the dark side of the “pro life” movement, the journal is “trawling the net” to “push an agenda”..

There’s a thing – was her assailant even brought to justice?
By the sounds of the court case he was “a long standing friend of the family” and her parents “after the rape did not correspond in various respects to the kind of behaviour one would expect of parents in such appalling circumstances. It was in this context the temporary care orders were sought and made”..
I mean, Irish rapists frequently get off lightly, many never even get reported – did he?

Wayne I don’t think there is any age at which rape is not considered awful that obviously goes without saying. 11 would be awfully young to endure something as traumatic as an abortion.

Being forced to carry a rapists baby and have a C section performed on you at the age of 11 would also be very traumatic….

How do you think abortions are carried out at 5 months?

A mousetrap, some cheese, a box of matches and a blender?

No try again

At age 11 children barely know what they want for dinner nevermind whether or not they want to undergo such a harrowing and traumatic experience as an abortion at 5 months gone.

EB, you say “At age 11 children barely know what they want for dinner nevermind whether or not they want to undergo such a harrowing and traumatic experience as an abortion at 5 months gone.”

I presume therefore by this logic you could equally say “At age 11 children barely know what they want for dinner nevermind whether or not they want to undergo such a harrowing and traumatic experience as carrying a rapist’s baby to term and giving birth at 11 years of age.”

A decision should have been made in the child’s best interests. However what dictated this decision was the law which entirely ignored any consideration of the best interests of the child.

This child’s story will now go away because all the religious anti-choice nuts are happy the baby’s been born to a baby and will happily forget about her and the baby and carry on with their happy little lives. This is such a heartbreaking story I hope her mother is allowed out to help her cope.

baby born to a baby? always knew pro-choicers had difficulty with timescales but this is a new low Deborah

She was 10 when she was raped by someone who was supposed to be a responsible adult.

I get it paddy preach about Jesus and love and then practice hatred and intolerance

@ richard fennessy Not at all Richard, I find the willingness to kill innocent children to be the realhatred and intolerance. If I met Göring or Himmler, how do you think we should address them: 1) I say old chap, perhaps you are been a tad too severe with the Jews, could you ease up a little. Or 2) You are a murderer and both God, and all just men, will call your view and actions towards the Jews to be murder. It suits your views for me to use option one, I’m now a believer in option two. I believe Jesus would also use option two.

Godwin’s Law ! You’ve lost this debate Paddy

If an 11 year old was having an abortion I am pretty sure that the advise would have come out. Also not allowing women having an abortion when needed in certain cases is not giving women autonomy over their bodies and considering your a man Paddy you really shouldn’t have a say in what a woman does with her body.

That should have been abuse would come out.

I am always amazed at the Christians who claim love for a person but when it comes to women and pro choice people seeking abortions and full autonomy over women’s bodies they are deemed murdering child killers. Not everyone sees a child. I see a foetus.

I would have no problem with someone having an a abortion if 1.The foetus was conceived through rape. 2. The foetus was not viable and 3. If the mother and father who were using birth control but it didn’t work couldn’t afford to have the child.

That doesn’t make me a child killer. It makes me someone with a different opinion to the pro lifers who seem to not care one iota for the living over a foetus.

@ Carol Kavanagh I’m afraid Carol your assumptions are incorrect, and there are multiple incidents in the US of an abusive parent getting an abortion for its victims, and getting away scott free. You then move onto the singular autonomy argument. Simple fact is there are two autonomous individuals involved in an abortion, and death is chosen for one without its autonomy been considered. Your foetus language, although technically correct, is just another mask used by those in favour of killing the young human. Abortion is primarely a technology of convenience, the vast amount of abortions are done because the little human is inconvenient. Shame on us. I’m not sure you gave yourself enough excuses to justify the killing above. Viability is such a weak excuse, a child of six months post birth, is not viable without parental input after all. Now the affordable excuse could be really powerful as a societal normal. I’m sure many stretched parents feel they can’t afford the school requirements for their twelve year olds. If your affordability excuse for murder catches on, children head for the hills, here comes Johnny. As for pro lifers not caring, it’s worth mentioning that the church is the largest charity provider in the world. Some abortionists have renounced their past profession, and many of these now provide the backbone of the pro-life movement. Organisations such as Rachel’s Vineyard provide support for women who had abortions. So us pro lifers don’t abandon those who need help. It’s one thing to claim charity and compassion, it’s an entirely different thing to be charitable and compassionate. I have no doubts on which side of this campaign the true charity and compassion resides.

That is soooo sad.

No that make you someone who supports a mother ending the life of HER living growing child.
Or as some call it child murder.

And Just because you refuse to believe a feotus is an unborn child,
does not make it so.
It is an unborn child.

And stop with the silly old line, no one cares once its born,
Maybe you dont, but there are millions ans millions who do and do so daily.

I never made assumptions Paddy and I know that some abusers got/get away scot free with the abuse they committed.

Also I don’t need a history lesson on the church. I wasn’t having a go at the church. I was having a go at SOME Christians who seem to forget about the woman before a foetus or child depending on your opinion. Don’t make assumptions about me. You don’t know me. We are all entitled to our opinion. You see a child, I see a foetus. The child went on to have the child. If it was my child that was abused and I didn’t know about it I would have murdered the man who did it and I would have demanded an abortion. Does that make me a bad person? If you think so fine.

Having been raped as a 12 year old I can tell you the effect it’s had on me has been at times catastrophic. I don’t think a child having a child should be happening. I don’t think a child should have to have an abortion. But if she is raped she shouldn’t have to have the child.

Also to the commentator who said something along the lines of ‘would you tell a child conceived through rape that you think they shouldn’t be here’ No I wouldn’t. The majority of women out there being raped and becoming pregnant is small compared to becoming pregnant naturally but why should a woman or child be forced to have a child that is/was conceived through rape?

The men saying women shouldn’t be allowed to have abortion in general need to realise that you shouldn’t have a say in what a woman does with her body.

Why should the child be taken from its mother, simply because that mother is also a child? A handy little scheme from the “love them both” brigade to compound the child’s trauma and take her baby from her to be sold to a “worthy” recipient.

@ Carol Kavanagh Carol you can certainly speak with authority from the perspective of the young woman above. In a discussion with some young women on this issue recently, I must admit I was shocked to discover just how prevalent the problem has become in society. There always was rape of course, but I’m convinced it’s a growing problem. I am however still convinced that adding the killing of the innocent child, to the experience of the rape, is never a solution to the injustice. As for the mother versus her child, practice in this regards has been very well managed in Ireland for many years. That is of course up until the recent changes. This is not just about what a woman does with her body, it’s also about what she wishes to do to the other unique, living, autonomous body of her child.

But what about the innocence of the 11 year old Paddy. Also I am adopted and I can tell you the effect it’s had on my birth mother has been hard. I was not conceived through rape and I am glad my biological mother didn’t want an abortion. But the fact of the matter is that giving a child up for adoption is hard but imagine taking the baby away from the 11 child. Is it not bad enough that she’s had to endure a pregnancy that she now has to have the baby taken away?

Think about that. You see a baby and I see a foetus, a bunch of cells. Up until its legally allowed an abortion if wanted should be granted. Ireland can’t keep pretending this is not happening.

You can’t keep turning a blind eye. Sexual abusers prey on children yes and abortion is sometimes used as a way to hide those crimes but I also know that if a child under the age of 16 is brought to a clinic for an abortion it is reported to the social services in some of those cases.

@ Carol Kavanagh The innocence of the eleven year old was stolen by the rapist, her stepfather. And there is no doubt it’s a very hard injustice that has been visited on her. But to compound the rape, by inflicting murder, is not justice or a help to her condition. Adoption, although not desired, is a better solution than murder. I’m glad you have the option of been glad that your mother choose life for you, despite the hardship of having to give you up. I can only hope her decision gave both you and her peace and joy in the years that followed. It doesn’t follow that this child will have to give up her child completely. She may have grandparents or other uncles or aunts that may help. Many’s the child in Ireland, raised by such an arrangement. You appear to be an intelligent person Carol, but you have swallowed the rhetoric of the murderers. It isn’t just a clump of cells, it’s a unique, living, organism, that’s as fully human as any old person. Your faith in people, willing to kill people, is sad. If they are willing to murder and be paid for it, then I can’t see their scruples kicking into action to obey the law of any land. They will, and do overlook the abuses, and perhaps receive a few extra dollars in the process. They have hidden trafficking and abuse, and will continue to do whatever lined their greedy pockets. Much of this cash makes its way into the political system. Ask Hillary Clinton about the dollars she gets from the organ donators, Planned Parenthood.

“Autonomy
1.2 Freedom from external control or influence; independence”
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/autonomy

“Simple fact is there are two autonomous individuals involved in an abortion, and death is chosen for one without its autonomy been considered”
Simple fact is that the foetus is not independent, if it were then the woman / girl merely need give birth at whatever stage of pregnancy she decides is appropriate. There would be no need for abortion at all.

The foetus is entirely up contingent upon remaining *inside* an actual individual person. One who is being denied autonomy if they do not get a say in what happens to them.

You see a child and I see a foetus.

&Paddy I have lots of compassion and I am tired of pro life people making out that pro choice people don’t. Also your comment about the financial constraints is silly. The majority of people who have children plan them. If your a couple with no work, no proper place to call home and are just about struggling to get by, is that a good environment to bring a child into? No it’s not but hey why not being another child into the world that the state has to pay for.
You talk about autonomy over a foetus and that their are two lives to consider. But here’s the kicker the foetus isn’t alive until it’s born so the woman’s needs and wants should come first. I don’t like the fact that there are women and men out there who use abortion as a birth control method but what I do like is that there are people like me willing to fight for the rights of women who need an abortion.

What’s your opinion/stance on women whose pregnancy isn’t viable? You think it’s fair that should have to carry a foetus to full term and then have to bury it because it’s dead inside the womb? Sending women abroad to seek abortions because the foetus inside is dead is disgusting, vile and should not be happening in Ireland.

Aborting a child conceived through rape does not guarantee lessening the trauma of rape. It is not a failsafe solution but is often promoted as one.

Not everyone sees it as a fail safe solution but why should a woman be forced to carry a child she doesn’t want or didn’t conceive through consensual sex?

A child? Yes you are right there. A child who has absolutely no control over the circumstances in which it was conceived but a child no less.

Being raped involves someone else using your body without consent for their own desires. Being pregnant out of that may feel to *some* survivors to be like getting raped all over again. Yet again, they are being used against their will for the sake of someone else – in this case, people she may never have even mets morals.
No one is even trying to suggest that abortion would resolve the trauma of the rape, but if that woman / girl feels like giving birth to her assailants baby would further compound her suffering then it’s cruel and unusual punishment to force her to give birth.

Anyone who has been raped is going to be severely traumatised – to say the least. Is it really a good time for a person to be making life affecting decisions?

Foetus is just another name in the stage of development of the growing, developing,
unborn child inside the mother, same as you were,
even now you are constantly growing older,
you never stop growing changing until the day you die.

Goodness me Chris, patronising comment of the week. Just when do you consider a traumatised woman might be in a position to make such a decision? After nine months perhaps? I trust women to make decisions in their own best interests. I have always found women more inclined to seek advice and discuss their feelings before taking a decision than men. A woman traumatised or not is perfectly capable of making such a decision and will normally have received extensive counselling. Women are not children of course. A child may need an adult to intervene and make the decision.

The point is John she is not in a position to make such a decision..who would be after such an horrific incident. Thats not patronising, thats stating a fact. Who knows, maybe an abortion would have compounded this girls trauma. Abortion is not the only way in cases such as these, sometimes its the worst thing to do. For some women who have been victims of rape, the child born of rape has been the one positive thing to come out of it.

Chris – all women are different. For SOME women continuing the pregnancy is the choice they make and live with. For OTHER women, carrying the pregnancy only serves to compound the trauma – are you conveniently forgetting Miss Y? So traumatised by a gang rape that she thought she was carrying the devil, she tried to starve herself to death for goodness sake – and she was forced to continue, she is now taking legal action and I wish her the best because like yourself, rather than actually listen to the women who are actually living the situation, you’ve decided to only focus on those who suit your narrative.

Here’s the hard facts.
“Pro life” wish to force women into one course of action regardless of their own thoughts and wishes.
Pro choice support that woman no matter what decision she makes, because we respect those women’s individuality and their capacity to make their own decisions about what is best for them.

I saw an argument upthread that as this victim was a child herself that perhaps her parents should have been tasked with making the decision. While I am opposed to forced abortion, I’m also fully aware that children are not permitted by law to give informed consent, so this does open a new can of worms – especially as in this case the mother did nothing to stop the abuse.

Thinking the child inside you is a devil and starving yourself does not sound like someone who is in sound mind. And who can blame her. And yet if the pro choice side had their way they would have allowed her terminate. Following the wishes of someone who is mentally unstable is not a responsible thing to do

Yes, so force feeding her and imprisoning her, then forcing her to have a c section so she will always have a reminder and will never, ever be able to claim that she is a virgin (which is important in her culture), is “better”.

Yeah Chris, us women.. We could never possibly have any idea what is best for *us*, we need patronising know it all moral police like yourself to make all our personal decisions for us..