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Iona Institute respond with their own chart of prominent words on their website

A chart showing that ‘gay and ‘same-sex’ are frequently used words on the site has been widely shared on social media today.

A CHART OF words frequently used on Catholic group The Iona Institute’s website has been making the rounds today.

It was put together by Ciarain Reilly and was widely shared after being tweeted out this morning by Panti Bliss:

It shows the words ‘gay’ and ‘same-sex’ are considerably more prominent on the site than others like ‘poverty’, ‘addiction’ or ‘depression’.

After being contacted by TheJournal.ie about the chart, The Iona Institute released their own, which shows words like ‘marriage’ and ‘religion’ are far more widely used, in keeping with their ethos.

Though the figures in the first chart are correct, spokesperson Ben Conroy described it as “extremely selective in terms of what it choose to compare us with in terms of areas of interest”.

The Iona Institute is interested in the areas of religion and marriage – so what if we try to put in some more relevant search queries? How many results do we get then?

“The Iona Institute is an organisation promoting the place of marriage and religion in society,” Conroy explained. “We have a particular remit and we talk about things within that remit.”

He also pointed out that the word ‘unemployment’ is only mentioned seven times on the Marriage Equality website.

“We can play games all day with this – or we could get back to the debate.”

Read: Here’s the wording you’ll be voting on in same-sex marriage referendum>

Read: ‘Should we allow mothers to marry their daughters?’>

Read: RTÉ receive 847 complaints about Panti appearance and apology to Iona Institute>

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173 Comments
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    Mute Sanity
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:12 PM

    Excellent that freedom is mentioned so often! I think freedom is hugely important. Freedom to choose who you marry. Freedom to choose if or when to have children. Freedom to call for (and get) a vote on elements of the constitution which many feel are outdated and unworkable…

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    Mute Alan Lawlor
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:51 PM

    The word freedom features on their home page under a link to an article “The meaning of religious freedom”.
    In other words, the term freedom comes from their espousing about freedom to follow Catholic dogma, not personal freedoms.

    147
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    Mute Sanity
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:58 PM

    I’m actually ok with people being free to follow their chosen beliefs, just so long as their chosen belief doesn’t impact on other people’s rights to equality, autonomy, freedom of choice, etc

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    Mute andrew
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:10 PM

    I’m all for freedom too. Iona Institue (how many people actually in it, 3 or 4) are free to f*** off and give us all a break from their retro catholic drivel. Your time has come and gone. You and yours did enough damage. No more

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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:16 PM

    Ridiculous that people latch on to this kind of nonsense! Deal with the issues rather than all this rubbish about what words were used how often! Are the yes side so devoid of reason that they resort to this? I sure hope the average voter in this country see through this nonsense.

    69
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    Mute Sanity
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:30 PM

    Language analysis can be quite revealing, actually. And it’s hard to argue rationally about issues with people who don’t respect personal autonomy, equality, human rights… There’s no real common ground. I also have great hopes that people will see through all the nonsense, but I suspect we define nonsense differently.

    96
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:33 PM

    James, at least this is based on reality. The no LITERALLY make stuff up in the absense of any real argument.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:42 PM

    James Mark Donnelly, typical frustration of a no supporter when faced with robust examination of the attitude of one of the prime organisers of opposition to the Referendum. Freedom of expression galls you, does it not?

    Let the people decide.

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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:09 PM

    Robust examination? Mercy, mercy me.

    Ailbhe, I realise we are polar opposites in this debate, but you seriously have to see the irony of accusing the Yes side of having no real argument in the comments section of this ridiculous nonsense. Away from here though, the argument about the family has been absolutely real, while the Yes side apologists (Which I’m sure you must be frustrated with their ineptitude at this point in the media debate) seem to just keep shouting EQUALITY, and telling us how lovely weddings are, and asking why they can’t have a wedding. There has been little, if any, substance in the Yes side thus far, and believe it or not, thats me trying to look at the debates of the last week in as unbiased a manner that I can. Even with the biased presenters, the Yes side are still looking devoid of any substantial argument in response to issues of family. I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I have been genuinely surprised at how bad the Yes side has been, even though its all stacked in their favour. I still think you guys will carry the referendum, but it wont be anything to do with any of the reasoning I’ve seen so far thats for sure.

    34
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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:29 PM

    The topic of the article is the Iona’s institute’s obsession with a limited range of topics and its obsession with opposing secular advancements conferring greater legal freedoms and equality of esteem.

    Having read the comments of the majority of the yes advocates, many excellent arguments have been advanced.

    The only negative aspect is that many of the yes supporters need to engage with the patent irrationality of perve remarks of the no supporters who are obsessed with marrying dogs, goats, parents, sibling and grandparents.

    Those who favour same sex marriage need not construct their arguments. The onus of proof lies on the opponents to demonstrate the harm of damage which would result in a liberalisation message. What harm, evil or injustice would be done by permitting same sex marriage.?

    I can see no adverse consequence in permitting same sex marriage save one. It will be necessary to up-date some English language dictionaries. With modern technology, this is no longer a significant challenge. Indeed, many dictionaries have already been successfully updated.

    I support same sex civil marriage because permitting it will do no harm and indeed will do some considerable good. It will abolish a significant legal discrimination against people who happen to be homosexual for no other reason than that they happen to be homosexual. Imposing legal incapacity is onky justifiable for the prevention of demonstrable harm. No such demonstrable harm has been explained.

    79
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:29 PM

    So such things as the constitution stating that all persons should be held equal before the law isn’t a valid argument but homos are paedophiles is?

    I don’t believe for a second that you took an unbiased view at all. You are clearly antagonistic based on the tone of your mercy mercy me posts.

    No point in rising to your attention seeking. It would be a waste of energy!

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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:42 PM

    TBH Ailbhe, thats an example of what I’m talking about. Lots of insults etc, a couple of buzz words like ‘equal’ etc and nothing in the way of substance. I certainly don’t mind you not believing me, I welcome your animosity tbh as it means I must be doing something right (Now thats antagonistic :) ), but even reading through all the comments here, its all just ‘IONA are dinosaurs’ etc. Its like a load of 9 year olds sticking their tongues out. If they really are as awful and stupid and irrelevant as you all believe, then you should be happy that they seem to be held up as the representatives of the No side.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:46 PM

    James, you have failed to show how any harm would result from permitting people who happen to be in love and homosexual the same right to civil marriage permitted to people who happen to be in love and heterosexual.

    What demonstrable ill effects, if any, will result?

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:49 PM

    Ok James, have you seen the arguments made on previous posts? If so, can you specifically summarise and critique them and show how these arguments have no substance or credibility?

    33
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:51 PM

    And to clarify, you are perfectly demonstrating your own points. You are criticising us but unabke to back up your own points or indeed make any real point. However, feel free to prove us wrong and blow us away. The floor is all yours.

    36
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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:55 PM

    It is helpful to the Yes Campaign that The Iona Institute spearheads the No opposition.

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    Mute andrew
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:03 PM

    it certainly is. these nutjobs represnt a kind of evil that the average person can sense a mile off

    either way, the chart is worthless. the frequency with which a word appears has nothing to do with the meaning of a piece of writing

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:13 PM

    James
    The fact that you call a word like ‘Equal’ a “buzzword” says much for your attitude. For the rest of us, equality is a lot more than a buzzword.

    64
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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:37 PM

    Equality is a fundamental value. I fail to see any objective basis for the continuation of legal prejudice against people who happen to be homosexual simply and onky because they happen to be homosexual.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:37 PM

    The constitution grants each of us equality.

    By denying marriage to people who are gay we are discriminating against them, by devaluing their relationships and setting them below those of heterosexual people.
    This contradicts the constitutions claims that all citizens are equal. It goes against out equality legislation which says it’s illegal to discriminate against gay people solely because they are gay – and yet we deny their partnerships equal status before the law.

    For this reason, we must ensure that gay people have full access to the constitutional protection of marriage, just as any heterosexual couple enjoy. Anything less is insinuating that homosexuals are somehow “less”, and that is patently not true.

    Now. Do you have a rational, reasoned argument why gay people should be denied this right?

    47
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:25 AM

    James falls silent. No surprise

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    Mute Kane Abel
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:43 AM

    If Ireland was Gotham City then Iona would be like a patrolling Batman protecting the citizens from the spectre of brooding, lurking, threatening, unsettling gayness….

    - Nah, they’re more like Superman but instead of kryptonite their super powers come from injections of ignorant, archaic, homophobic self-righteousness dealt out by their local Priest, who ironically enough will probably come out himself eventually once his Mammy passes away.

    28
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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 3:46 AM

    @Jane Travers. Unfortunately, ‘Equality’ has indeed become a buzzword but I share your view that this should not be the case. Just like ‘homophobe’, ‘bigot’, ‘tolerance’ etc have been completely undermined by their mis-use, so has ‘equality’. People try use them to paint the opposition in a nasty way, than actually use them on merit. Somebody who genuinely expresses their concern for the impact redefining marriage would have on children or society for example, will be asked, ‘So you don’t believe in equality’ etc. Its just political buzz wording. The fact is, it sounds more innocuous to call it marriage equality and its also loaded against your opposition to ask, ‘Are you for marriage equality?’, rather than, ‘Are you for redefining marriage’ etc. You are not stupid, and you know exactly how this semantic game works, and how the jostling for framing the debate works.

    @Anthony Lang: I am voting No because I believe marriage to be too important, arguably the MOST important part of any successful society. It actually saddens me to see it reduced to something rather sentimental and superficial, which I believe has happened this week on TV and Radio when the yes side are drawing emotional pictures of beautiful wedding celebrations etc. or merely talked about in terms of ‘Its just about people in Love’.
    It cannot be escaped, that a very great part of why marriage is so important, is that it is the beginning of the family. The ideal, nuclear family. Mum – Dad and child(ren). The best environment for our children, and in turn for our society. Redefining marriage undermines the family. It says all dynamics are the same (Even though only one dynamic can actually produce life). It initially removes the idea of children as part of marriage, and essentially just makes it into a contract. However, the issue of children then return to the table when it comes to things like adoption. I’m sure we’d all love it, if there was no need for adoption, and that all children were born and reared by their doting mums and dads, but unfortunately, the worlds not ideal. In the absence of an ideal world, children for whatever reason are available for adoption, and we should try our best to find something that matches that biological ideal that for whatever reason they have lost out on. Dismantling marriage, opens the door to two men taking a child and removing its chance of ever having a mother. It enshrines in law, that their dynamic is equal to that of a man/woman couple to the detriment of the right of a child to have a mom and dad. This cannot be overstated.

    The Door Opened:
    In ignoring the other aspects of marriage and simply talking about marriage as about Love between consenting adults, it is no longer reasonable to exclude polygamists, polyamorists etc from marriage (Or to spin it in Yes terms, deny THEM ‘equality’) So if this is the basis for same sex couples, then it is quite obvious that the door is kicked opened for other adult dynamics. Strangely, I’ve seen this point derided, but never dealt with. People seem all fluffy about ‘Same Love’ etc in terms of LGBT, but cannot recognise the issue that the very same reasonings apply to a multitude of other adult relationships.

    Then there is childrens education. If marriage is redefined, then LGBT activists, will push for a more ‘inclusive’ education policy, which will basically be LGBT indoctrination. There are schools in Boston that do not refer to kids as boys and girls for fear of there being a transgender kid, this is kindergarten by the way. GLSEN (Gy and Lesbian Education Network) have recommended games such as ‘Getting in touch with your inner tannie’ as a way of promoting inclusivity, and breaking down gender etc. It will be hard to push back against this due to the fact that the state will have said by redefining marriage, that this is all perfectly acceptable.

    Now, you may see all of this as perfectly fine, but I certainly don’t. I don’t believe we should ever look at the following and promote it as normative:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/04/usa.gender
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/meet-world-pregnant-man-scott-moore-expecting-baby-miles-february-report-article-1.462978

    Then there is the thing that most of you probably wont care about, and that is freedom of conscience and religious freedom. Ashers Bakery is only a taste (pardon the pun) of things to come.

    So thats pretty much the bones of by reasonings for voting No Anthony.

    @Ailbhe: It may come as a surprise to you, but I actually have a life :) I realise my posts are full of riveting prose that you just cannot wait to read and that you are greatly disappointed when I do not reply with the expediency you desire (If at all) but alas, arguing with internet strangers was quite low on my list of priorities :)

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 6:52 AM

    My marriage is neither sentimental nor superficial. It is a source of immense joy and significance to me. It is at the core of the meaning of my life. Nothing and no one, not you, not any one else can reduce it or undermine it in any way. It does not not require children. It is a relationship which OS sanctioned and supported by the state because civil marriage is at the heart of a cohesive society. A stable and loving marriage can provide a warm and nurturing environment fir children but that is not the purpose of marriage. Marriage is a relationship first and foremost between then two married people. It exists and can exist perfectly well without children.

    It still surprises me that you Fail to see the benefits is expanding such a civil marriage recognition of the loving and exclusive relationships to people who happen to be gay. Their love and their relationships are just as fine, decent, good and worthy as mine. They may or may not wish to have children. Civil marriage provides legal certainty and state support as well as recognition.

    Nothing you have said shows any effort to justify the deeply discriminatory, hurtful and diminishing refusal to gay couples the legal recognition which thankfully my wife and I can take for granted as full citizens of a republic.

    You fail to justify the discrimination because you cannot. Therefore you seek to impugn the supporters of same sex civil marriage who have made their case.

    Show the wrong, the evil and the mischief which would result and supposedly has resulted in other jurisdictions as a result of permitting same sex civil marriage.

    39
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    Mute Brian J. McMahon
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:22 AM

    Well said James. There has been a lot if knee jerk arguments made here. Very few have taken the time to do a little research. Look to the states and examine the statistics garnered in part by the Gay and Lesbian society in America and make an INFORMED decision.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:24 AM

    At the end of an incredibly lengthy post where you are arguing with strangers you refuse to engage me, the person who asked you to refute our claims and provide your own because apparently you can’t be bothered. Basically you can’t you’re avoiding it because you cannot. Nice try James, but even tou have nothing!

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 8:51 AM

    Failed to engage the legal issues of marriage elitism. Started spewing Fox news esque nonsense about “indoctrination”, revealing that the true issue James has is homophobic.

    You can’t choose to be gay. You can’t make yourself be gay, you either are or you are not. So why are you afraid of open education that teaches children about the wide variety of people in this world? You call it indoctrination – but they’re not teaching the kids that they *are* gay, merely that if they happen to be, that’s completely fine and unlike the past – not something you should have to hide.

    Your arguments hinge on all sorts of slippery slopes, red herring, and fear. Your arguments are irrational and devoid of reason, so why should they be considered valid?

    29
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    Mute John Ward
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 9:04 AM

    @Brian J. Mcmahon:
    Look to the Iona “Institute” and make a DEFORMED decision!

    11
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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 9:16 AM

    James
    Same-sex couples are already having children. Gay individuals are already adopting children and co-parenting with legally-unrecognised partners. Gay couples foster children all over the country.
    These facts won’t change whether you approve of SSM or not. The only thing that will change is the security of these families, which is sadly lacking at present, after the forthcoming family bill.
    Marriage equality is about just that, equality. Equality will never be a buzzword as long as it is being withheld from one section of society.

    22
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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 10:13 AM

    @Mark James Donnelly:

    Your commentary about the gate being opened to polygamy is deeply disingenuous, not least because of the proposed constitutional safeguard which refers to “two persons”; this means that the amendment to the Constitutional actually strengthens the position of a Irish law against polygamy, by banning it under the Constitution. No such Constitutional ban exists on polygamy today.

    There are other reasons why polygamy is not desirable or legally permissible in Ireland. The most obvious legal one is that Ireland has international obligations under EU law (which floats above the Constitution) to grant mutual recognition to EU marriages, and vice versa for other EU countries of Irish marriages. Were we to unilaterally become the first EU Member State to legalise group marriages, this would present unnecessary legal distractions for the Irish Government at EU level, which Ireland doesn’t need. And you are being disingenuous in indicating confusion on this point. If however a religious organisation wished to “marry” multiple people together, it it free to do so, because Church Marriage and Civil Marriage are totally separate institutions and principles, and recognition of such a religious “marriage” would be prohibited under the Constitution following the introduction of this proposed amendment.

    23
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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:33 PM

    Jane, I understand that same sex couples are already raising children, just like single parents, grandparents etc are too. There are all sorts of family dynamics in the country due to a multitude of circumstances, but the issue for me is the state facilitating and by design denying children the chance of having mothers and fathers. I don’t believe children up for adoption should be given to single people, gay couples etc when there are worthy nuclear family options available.

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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 8:00 PM

    Shanti, I don’t believe breaking down gender, or indeed bringing LGBT activism to impressionable young minds is healthy for children. I have no issue with being called homophobic at this stage, Its wholly meaningless at this stage and par for the course for anyone who stands up to LGBT activism. I’ll continue to speak the truth as I see it, and will defend my LGBT brethren where appropriate, and fight them where I deem appropriate. I will not be capitulating to their every whim, nor will I ever start to hate them, even in the face of some of the hateful terms they will label me with.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 8:21 PM

    Yes James, because you are clearly the victim here.. I mean, the law recognising the equality of gay people means you lose your superiority, that’s simply awful, how will you cope? Darn those activists expecting to be treated like human beings and citizens of this state..

    As for whether information about sexuality and gender to kids is a good idea.. Well, what’s the alternative you’re suggesting? The status quo? Because that leads to kids having feelings entering puberty that they don’t understand – these feelings may prove scary for some. Not knowing how to vocalise them, or what they mean – or indeed that they’re a normal part of self discovery, can be harmful. It leads to poor self esteem, depression and sometimes suicide. The whole reason anyone wants to talk to kids about these issues is to prevent the alarmingly high rates of suicide among LGBT teens. How you think that’s not healthy is beyond me, perhaps you just hadn’t thought it through.

    Like I said – explaining to kids that some people are gay, some people are bi, some people are born with the wrong private parts – these are ways to ensure that kids who fall into these categories don’t get the impression that heterosexual is the only way to be – because THAT is unhealthy.

    12
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    Mute Jim Cantwell
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    Jan 24th 2015, 12:50 PM

    Santi,
    As the law currently is and millenia of cultural tradition afirms
    Two people get married with the intention to form a family unit.
    Marriage is not just about two people enjoying each other company, community or sexual relations.
    It is about, procreation, child rearing and inheiritance.

    3
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 24th 2015, 1:57 PM

    To you Jim, yes. Thst doesn’t apply to all couples, beliefs, cultures, and backgrounds.

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    Mute John Murphy
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    Jan 26th 2015, 5:01 PM

    James, Funny you mention 9 year olds, about the age I was when two of those who Iona treat, decided I was easy meat. Funnily enough neither was gay, one went on to marry, the other vanished, hopefully somewhere in the Wicklow mountains after picking on the wrong one.
    Your Iona Institute IS a dinosaur, & I for one would be very happy to see them disappear into to ether.
    I suppose you can guess by now I’m a Yes voter, & as I’m not gay, it will have absolutely no effect on me, because it will be permitted once passed, not compulsory.

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    Mute Wayne O'Fathaigh
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:14 PM

    The word sex appears 4,800 times! They must have it on the brain

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    Mute Gavin Lawler
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:27 PM

    No just talking about the sex life of others

    173
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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:32 PM

    Iona’s red bar chart is patently ridiculous – note how they have separated out “Gay” and “Same Sex” and “Marriage” into separate bars.

    Put them back together and you get a trend that’s much closer to the original graph circulated by Panti!

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    Mute Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:28 PM

    If I typed the words “gay” & “sex” into Google, I wonder how near the top would the Iona website be?

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    Mute gavin ward
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:04 PM

    Is anyone even listening anymore to these people,
    as LL Cool J once said,
    “You Don’t need a weather man to know which way the wind blows”

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    Mute Declan Doyle
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:06 PM

    Bob Dylan

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    Mute linda o neill
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:17 PM

    I am and as for that Panti .. She would want keep his mouth shut and give us a break

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    Mute Declan Doyle
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:19 PM

    All you need is love…

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    Mute Billy Chenowith
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:23 PM

    Are you going to give her an old homophobic dig there Linda? Good woman!

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    Mute poisonivy
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:01 PM

    It’s always the ones that shout the loudest and most aggressively that are hiding something and are (wrongly) ashamed of who they are. Me thinks Linda doth protest too much. Come on out Linda most people are more tolerant than you are.

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    Mute finbarr ocormac
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:12 PM

    one minute hes a woman and the next shes is a bloke …cant get me head around that so dont you dare call me a homophobic

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    Mute David McDermott
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:20 PM

    Google the word drag queen and it will enlighten your mind!

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:23 PM

    In character – she
    Not in character – he

    Same as Brendan O’Carroll. Simples

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    Mute Paul Fahey
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:10 PM

    Finbarr – just like you, one minute you are Linda the next you are Finbarr. Is that your problem, are you a self loathing transexual?

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    Mute Brian Madden
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:27 PM

    @lindibar, are you still calling gay people “freaks”?

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    Mute Brian Madden
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:28 PM

    @lindibar, ya you are a homophobe!!

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    Mute Were Jammin
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:11 PM

    I should put together a similar graph of swear words that pop into my head when I hear the words ‘iona institute’

    Incidentally, I see the word ‘Christian’ doesn’t feature on their graph. Guess we can’t let the teachings of Christ get in the way of a good ol’ Catholic hatefest….

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:18 PM

    Neither does the word ‘tolerance’.

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    Mute Sinead Hanley
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:11 PM

    Its kinda funny seeing the liberals getting their knickers in a knot anytime the Iona Institute are mentioned

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:32 PM

    @Sinead: I would have no quibble with them *if* they didn’t scare people by combining fact with fiction and then proceed to deliver that with the gravitas of an academic body all over the public airwaves; an “Institute” they are not.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:41 PM

    Sinead, as a catholic do the Iona Institute speak for you? Genuine question.

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    Mute Sinead Hanley
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:55 PM

    Jane… Sometimes yes.. But i wouldnt agree with most of their views on same sex marriage..

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:59 PM

    Sinead
    Thanks for your answer. Do you feel they are being dishonest in conflating SSM with the issue of gay adoption?

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    Mute James Mark Donnelly
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:32 PM

    It is not dishonest to talk about children in a debate about marriage. It IS dishonest at worst, or simply ignorant at best to believe that marriage is simply about the state getting all sentimental about people in love.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:54 PM

    Nobody is saying that James. Marriage is a commitment by way of contract of two persons. That contract makes no reference to an obligation to have children once entered or that it must be entered to have children.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:01 PM

    I am in a valid civil marriage, contently happy and without children. Is my marriage invalid?

    Before the Referendum, same sex couples will have parental rights as couples in addition to their existing rights as single gay people.

    Allowing same sex marriage will make no difference to the children except perhaps the feeling of validation that their same sex parents are the equal in law of heterosexual parents.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:15 PM

    James
    It IS dishonest to imply or infer that allowing people who love each other to marry will in any way adversely affect children.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:29 PM

    It is dishonest to conflate the referendum with children, as that is being dealt with by separate legislation which will be enacted regardless of the referendums outcome.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 9:18 AM

    Sinead, no answer?

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    Mute Wayne O'Fathaigh
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:16 PM

    Also they are not an Institute, they are a self appointed, mysteriously funded, conservative catholic group, who are registered as a PLC charity

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    Mute Billy Chenowith
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:25 PM

    Their finding is shady rather than mysterious. Google bock the robbers blog about them

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:41 PM

    “mysteriously funded”

    Mostly conservative republicans and Dominos Pizza. They have no shame supporting this stain of a hate group. An embarrassment to our country they are.

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:44 PM

    I’ve added a link and some highlights in another post on this page.

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    Mute Paddy Hannigan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:54 PM

    If I declare myself an institution does that mean I’ve been institutionalised ? Have the Iona Institute been ?

    Given their fasination with the sex lives of others prehaps they should be.Judging from their website I’m begining to think they have a very unhealthy fixation on the sex life and relationships of the ‘irish homosexual’.Prehaps it’s time they seek professional help for this fetish.It aint healthy.If I thought about others having sex or others relationships as much as they seem to I’d be concerned.

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    Mute Johnny Merren
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:26 PM

    “…..they have a very unhealthy fixation on the sex life and relationships of the ‘Irish homosexual’
    Does any of this this ring a bell from the good old days with the Christian Brothers ?

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    Mute Paddy Hannigan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:30 PM

    @Johnny.Throw into the mix that they seem to see child abusers around every corner and quite honestly I’d be rather concerned about them.

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    Mute Mike Clinton
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:12 PM

    Seriously, who gives a flying *you know what* what these craw thumping dinosaurs think.
    Let them have their flat earth hellfire & brimstone meets.

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    Mute Shauna McDermott
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:14 PM

    Well I care very much, as they seem to have a bonkers amount of access to major media outlets in this country on all manner of social issues. Their lies and skewing of the facts will be picked up on by those voters who are undecided or unsure, and will have a big say in the result. The more people talking about their 1950′s catholic agenda and funding sources the better!

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    Mute Mike Clinton
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:34 PM

    But Shauna,we can see these headcases for what they really are,
    It’s like saying that the murders in Paris are representative of all Muslims or hitler was representative of all German people.
    These nutters are dinosaurs that are fading into their own history.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:30 PM

    Mike – there’s still some people out there who don’t see through them. Until those people can see it – allow them their say, to prove how ignorant they actually are.

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    Mute Jake Race
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:14 PM

    That was a quick response. The Iona-bots are working hard.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:19 PM

    You can do anything quickly if you have enough funding.

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    Mute Cian Doherty
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:52 PM

    Ye just ask Chuck Feeney.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:42 PM

    It’s so funny to see people try and claim that Chuck Feeney is bankrolling the Marriage Equality campaign, sure isn’t he also supposedly bankrolling the pro choice campaign too?

    See, Chuck Feeney donated to the ICCL, and while they do indeed support marriage equality and abortion rights, these are merely some of the things they support.

    It’s like claiming a donation to Amnesty is directly supporting the marriage equality campaign.. It’s laughable when you have conservative guys in the US naming specific Irish lobby groups that they’re donating to (eg YD).

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:11 PM

    The Iona Institute cares so much about the well being of children and the family. That’s why they (mainly Breda O’Brien) have been campainging to have legal protection of children of same-sex couples conceived through assisted reproduction outside of hospitals and clinics. That is why they’d rather have the law recognise the sperm donor as the legal guardian rather than the non-biological parent in the same-sex couple.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:15 PM

    Sorry, I meant to say they want to legal protection removed

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:06 PM

    It’s ok, we gotcha

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    Mute dave donovan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:26 PM
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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:33 PM

    Shatter, about the only thing Shatter got right was when he left

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    Mute Barry Healy
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 5:31 AM

    Free Gaza, is there not a need to know and have recognised on birth certs and medical documentation who the biological father was for future genetic hereditary reasons and to ensure we don’t get incestuous unions? Not an issue in a homosexual relationship so much perhaps but what if a donor for a clinic was a particularly productive individual? Could have a load of little offspring running around unknown to each other. Chances could be small but ya never know! It won’t be an issue in a few more years when genetic engineering will be able to transplant one parents dna from either a sperm or egg into a donor sperm or egg, fertilise to produce an ovum and implant in a surrogate or female parent. 100% naturally conceived human of two people of the same sex. Ok so the foundation is engineered but the conception is natural.

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:29 PM

    Alternatively, you can read all about the board of directors behind the Iona “Institute” at the link below — highlights include the company’s connections with:

    - an Irish radio station,
    a leading private hospital in Ireland,
    - a controversial prayer-group that lectures to Irish Secondary school students about sex-education, and
    - a high-profile pizza chain:

    http://bocktherobber.com/2013/06/what-exactly-is-the-iona-institute/

    What it most extraordinary about the Iona “Institute” though (aka Lolek Ltd, a company limited by guarantee), is how quickly it has achieved a stranglehold on the Irish media, being invited to nearly any societal debate to air its views (from marriage equality to care standards in creches). Almost no other organisation has achieved the same near-total dominance of the media in their field of interest.

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    Mute Liam is ainm dumb
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:33 PM

    The media should get on that Theresa Heaney wan who ran for Europe, she was great craic.
    She has gems like;
    “Marriage is about one man, one woman, a lifetime commitment. In The Story, there’s no such thing as marriage between people of same-sex attraction, it’s like calling an orange an apple – it doesn’t match up.”

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    Mute Mr L.Jay
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:45 PM

    Winding
    I think I am correct in saying that Iona claim charity status.By doing so it has a bearing on their tax

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:25 PM

    @Jay:

    Yes, sort of – since the Iona “Institute” isn’t anything more than a trading name, they can’t claim it.

    The *limited company which trades as* the “Iona Institute” (Lolek Limited of 23 Merrion Square, Dublin 2) has successfully claimed charitable tax exemption. Number 17347 on the Charities Register.

    In summary then, they aren’t anything more than a private company (Lolek Ltd), claiming tax exemptions, and trading an an “Institute”.

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    Mute Johnny Merren
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:53 PM

    Winding, What is the charity ?
    is it a charity to give comfort to fallen priests and christian brothers ?

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:18 PM

    @Johnny, I did a bit of digging and I found this explanation for its charitable status:

    Under Irish law, if the organisation is a corporate body, as Lolek Ltd (Iona) is, it must be bound by a memorandum and articles of association. All of its money must go towards achieving stated charitable aims. In Lolek’s case, the aims it stated in order to get tax-free status are as follows:

    “The advancement and promotion of the Christian religion, its social and moral values, and the doing of all such other things as are incidental or conducive to the attainment of that object.”

    If it spends money on anything else, it doesn’t qualify for tax exemption.

    There is an argument that the political lobbying engaged in by Lolek Ltd renders its charitable status void. In that case Lolek/Iona would be claiming funds from the taxpayer illegitimately.

    Complaints can be directed to the Revenue Commissioners in Nenagh on (067) 6337 quoting Charity No. 17347.

    More details here: http://bocktherobber.com/2014/03/iona-not-charity/

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:32 PM

    Almost 18 months ago, I made a detailed legal submission to the Charities Section of the Revenue Commissioners. No response was received.

    I then sent the Submission to the Commissioners. I received an acknowledgement confirming receipt, that the tax affairs of Lolek are a confidential matter and no investigation was required. I merely sought investigation.

    It would require immense courage to investigate Lolek.

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:49 PM

    @Athony: I commend your initiative!

    I would point out though that it isn’t the case that their tax affairs are a “confidential matter”, rather it is the case that their political activities are outside of the activities permitted by the Tax Consolidation Act for Charitable Tax Exemption. The Office of the Ombudsman is now empowered to examine complaints about the administrative actions the Revenue Commissioners (it may not have been when you approached Revenue the last time).

    I would encourage you to re-file your submission (with an update to take account of the current debate) and to refer it to inform Revenue that you will be referring the matter to the Office of the Ombudsman in the public interest.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:42 PM

    I will follow that suggestion with enthusiasm. I filed a 12 page submission explains the legal basis join which advocacy, lobbying, political activism and pressure activities in the political area fall outside the advancement of religion. It was disappointing to to get the brush off.

    The Ombudsman might be willing to investigate. All I wish is to see the law respected and observed.

    Thank you very much.

    There is a specific investigative process permitted to the Revenue Commissioners under the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, as amended.

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:59 PM

    Fair play, Anthony! Nothing like a motivated citizen to hold public bodies to account for their administrative decisions!

    Got this from the Revenue’s FAQ on charities:

    Can charitable tax exemption be withdrawn?

    Yes, tax exemption may be withdrawn (retrospectively if necessary) if the body does not comply with its charitable objects or to the conditions associated with the charitable tax exemption. In such circumstances a charge to tax as determined by the Revenue Commissioners may be raised.

    Also, the Charities Regulatory Authority took over some of the powers of the Revenue Commissioners in this area since October 2014. They undertake to look into complaints received about charities so might be worth contacting them for information. Have a look here:

    https://www.charitiesregulatoryauthority.ie/website/cra/craweb.nsf/page/whatwedo-investigation-en

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:07 PM

    Great ideas. I agree with your analysis and the consequence of a charge to tax.

    My only reservation is that the Charities Regulatory authority may claim that taxation matters are in the exclusive statutory competence of the Revenue Commissioners but the argument is that Lolek is collecting for charitable objectives, the advancement of religion, but its activities are actually and essentially political in nature. Lolek is opposing same sex civil marriage, a matter of law, not religion.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:30 PM

    I shall watch this space with interest, Anthony and winding! :)

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:23 AM

    @Anthony:

    I agree with your reservation; and it may well be the case that the CRA handle only complaints of a non-tax nature against charities. They will clarify that if you contact them to ask though.

    In any event, the main point is that the Revenue have a duty to withdraw a charitable tax exemption granted to a company in circumstances where a charity is spending ANY money on an activity that is not on the following list:

    - Relief of poverty.
    - Advancement of education.
    - Advancement of religion.
    - Other works of a charitable nature beneficial to the community.

    There would seem to be a strong evidence that Lolek Ltd is a religiously-motivated political lobbying group, and that its activities flout the above list. So:

    - Note in your submission that on the basis of the public interest, you’re requesting a review of the tax exemption granted, in light of the company’s recent activities in relation to Civil Marriage etc.

    - Point to your concern that the Irish exchequer is subsidising a private lobby group by mistakenly treating it as a charity.

    - Point out that this is not a complaint which requires an adjudication of the company’s confidential tax affairs and list the reasons why you don’t believe that the company meets the test to be granted Charitable Exemption under tax legislation (the link above has some great reasons).

    - Include in your correspondence a statement to the effect that you’ll be referring Revenue’s administrate decision (or their refusal to take one like last time) to the Office of the Ombudsman for further review, if necessary. Ask that they explain the reasons for their decision, pointing out that this will assist the Ombudsman’s review, if you decide to take matters that far.

    Most importantly, the law is there to protect you as a taxpayer; you’re entitled to bring this matter to the Revenue’s attention. The Irish State is very re-active and rarely pro-active about matters, too many require a formal complaint before an investigation is carried out, so don’t be put off!

    Good luck, Anthony!
    Thanks @Jane

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    Mute Elaine Coleman
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:14 PM

    Ironic that ‘freedom’ is their third most frequent word.

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    Mute Declan Doyle
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:04 PM

    All you need is love…..there’s some more words for yiz….

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    Mute Leslie Skinner
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:07 PM

    What a queer article

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    Mute Blacksod63.
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:00 PM

    They seem to love talking about all things sex related! Very little talk of poverty or other serious social issues

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    Mute UndercoverGarda
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:30 PM

    Sex sells. Or at least the lack of it before a consensual agreement before a (possibly non-existent) metaphysical deity and a man in drag.

    Amirite fellas? HIYOOOOOOOOOO!

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    Mute gavin ward
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:08 PM

    Thanks Declan for clearing that up for me!

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    Mute johnny boy
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:59 PM

    Come out all yee gay people and propoganders, and bash the Iona institute

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:04 PM

    No need Johnny, they do it for us!

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    Mute finbarr ocormac
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:17 PM

    Well the gov will do a good job with the new child act and then we will start the scare mongering to make sure that the marriage equality legislation will not pass

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    Mute Nelly Pender
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:18 PM

    Yes and they get well paid for it to. The Iona and Watters got thousands from the taxpayers through R.t. e. For me any issue they spout on is just verbal diarrhoea aftre they went for the tax payesr jugular for no legitimate reason- in my opinion.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:24 PM

    Very honest of you Findabar. I’ve taken a screenshot. This will be shared. Mucjos gracias

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:01 PM

    As have I, Ailbhe. Nice one Lindabarr.

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    Mute winding_down
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:33 PM

    @Nelly: They don’t just get money from RTÉ – as a Registered Charity, Lolek Limited get a tax rebate from the State. How objectionable is that!

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:38 PM

    Rewarded by charitable tax exemptions for opposing an equality directed Referendum.

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    Mute Declan Doyle
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:04 PM

    Sorry, I didn’t realise you were being? Ironic….

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    Mute dave donovan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:00 PM

    Joan’s money comes from the same far right US ‘Christian’ groups that fund those murderous anti gay governments in places like Uganda is and other such fun gangs such as the westboro baptist church.
    They’re officially a charity who have another ten or twenty charities registered at their address in Dublin but it might be the foreign money has dried up cos they had the begging bowl out at Christmas looking for ten thousand euro. So they may well be on the ropes. You do get a fee for appearing on RTÉ but no way would that keep them in vespers no matter how many appearances on every show you have.

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    Mute dave donovan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:03 PM

    I meant Iona’s money. Not Joan’s. Bloody autocucumber

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:14 PM

    Iownya clearly need lessons in PR. It’s hilarious how they actively discredit themselves.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:53 PM

    The weakness of fundamentalists is that their strident, dictatorial and absolutist expression eventually makes for tiresome copy. There is an effort to soften the hectoring and dictatorial tone when Breda O’Brien softens the tone of her voice and slows down her expression so as to talk to the opposition on the basis that the opposition are dim students requiring her patience and indulgence. The Communications challenge is that this often looks contrived and not a little off putting. People are less inclined to be talked down to anymore by any side of a debate.

    The Iona Institute regards itself as the intellectual storm troopers for the more fundamentalist elements in the Roman Catholic Church and in the hard line Christian churches.

    The Iona Institute is combination of a right wing religious think tank and a very specialised special interest lobby and pressure group which has managed to acquire charitable recognition from the Charities Section of the Revenue Commissioners. That is a modern day miracle.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:37 PM
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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:21 PM

    The charitable tax status of the Iona Institute is a great mystery to me. It is able to raise substantial funds and accumulate substantial profit without any tax charge. Indeed, donations to the Iona Institute are allowable against Irish income tax. This is very convenient and is a form of state sponsorship of this putative “charity”.

    David Quinn, Breda O’Brien and, now to a lesser extent, John Waters, hold a privileged position of influence and authority in the Irish media and with Irish politicians, such as Lucinda Creighton. This position is disproportionate to the very limited level of democratic support that the Iona Institute actually enjoys.

    An incidental side benefit of the Referendum, when passed, will be one more set back fro the Irish fundamentalists. Of course, it will still have it’s campaign to defend the 8th Amendment, the wretched life and health threatening Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution to defend but it will eventually lose all of its battles.

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    Mute Sammy Sausages
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:49 PM

    Well the Catholics do love a good mystery.

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    Mute Sammy Sausages
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:58 PM

    Spokesperson for Iona also happens to be Breda O’Brien’s son. Is that place a family business or what?

    I’d love if some proper journos did some digging around where they get all the cash to fund their agenda.

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    Mute John Ward
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:29 PM

    Bolek & Lolek!

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    Mute Atticus the Accuser
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:25 PM

    Iona full of creeps!

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    Mute Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 6:52 PM

    “]He [Iona spokesperson] also pointed out that the word ‘unemployment’ is only mentioned seven times on the Marriage Equality website”

    ….which might be related to fact that they’re campaigning specifically for errr…..marriage equality.

    Iona claims to be campaigning for families and children while ignoring the actual problems facing families and children.

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    Mute Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:03 PM

    Nearly half of all references to “marriage” are to actually to “homosexual marriage”, “gay marriage”, “same-sex marriage”, “lesbian marriage”…!

    Lose the obsession, folks.

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    Mute Flint N Drench
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:38 PM

    Thou shalt not speak blasphemy against a certain cabaret performer who is the messiah of the Irish chattering classes!

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    Mute Silver Planet
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 5:44 PM

    Now do one for the Journal! Stories to be indexed by hashtag. It’ll be hilarious seeing #abortion compared to minor things like #poverty and #war

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    Mute dave donovan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:24 PM
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    Mute Silver Planet
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:02 AM

    Cool story, bro. Needs more relevance to my comment

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 7:50 PM

    Is the Iona Institute the provisional wing of Christian fundamentalism?

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    Mute Affinity
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:45 PM

    Who are these people in the Iona? They really need to get out there and get a life. Are they a joint group of extremist Catholics and Born Agains? I hope Ireland has moved on enough not to allow these type of people to influence what is right for modern day society. The old days are over and If these people don’t like it, move to a country that has similar beliefs. Extremist religion is no longer needed, it has done too much damage in this country.

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    Mute John Mulligan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:40 PM

    For an organisation supposedly concerned with matters cerebral, they seem fixated with the area below the waist.

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    Mute Paul Keane
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:53 PM

    Don’t understand the point of this. Are we going to get a detailed study of the most popular words on the marriage equality site too? Completely pointless chart and article.

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    Mute C. G. Ó Raghallaigh
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:26 PM

    Go for it, Paul!

    See if (like the Iona Institute) there’s a vast gulf between what Marriage Equality claims to be and what they actually are.

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    Mute Brian Shanahan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:39 PM

    So Iona want to prove they’re not homophobic by showing how much homophobic language and dog-whistling they use.

    Genius, absolute genius!

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    Mute dave donovan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 8:24 PM

    Referendums wording is legally watertight. Stick that in your pipe
    Read this. All will be explained clearly and concisely. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/same-sex-marriage-referendum-a-legal-review-1.2074579?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:34 PM

    Straightforward, clear cut and unambiguous.

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    Mute Paul Keane
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 9:55 PM

    Are u just gonna keep posting that?

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    Mute executioner
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:36 PM

    Discredited by a panto drag queen is hardly gonna register with most voters who can think for themselves.

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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:44 PM

    I dunno, that all it takes is a panto drag queen to discredit them speaks volumes.

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    Mute Mark Wilson
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 8:47 AM

    Ben Conroy- Son of prominent Iona “patron”. Following in mother dearest’s tired religious dogma.
    Iona institute is nothing more than a cult,similar to Scientology. Both espouse to be academic in nature but just pump out one-sided drivel.
    Perhaps when Iona/Lolek Ltd are more vocal on their finances and funding we can allow the public to judge if they should be in charge of the moral police.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 2:01 PM

    Westborough Limited?

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    Mute Michael Kenrick
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:23 PM

    And this is news worthy how exactly?

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    Mute Joe Burns
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:20 PM

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there far more members of the Iona Institute than there are LGBT people in Ireland? Are all those people wrong by virtue of the fact that they are Catholics?

    Judging from some of the comments, a very large chunk of Ireland are not entitled to an opinion on Gay Marriage or Gay Adoption? Did we not have a great debate recently over Free Speech and the events in Paris? And during that debate did we not say that a large religious group were getting their knickers in a twist over a very trivial matter?

    Funny how the ultra-liberal mind works. A sizeable chunk of Ireland are not resorting to violence or particularly getting incensed (unlike another large religious group) and are following the law and the democratic process to put out their view to the public. On the other side of the debate you have a funny-man in a dress going all Jihadi on us, again, and although not appointed to speak for the LGBT community, has set him/herself up as spokesman/woman. Just as the Iona Institute doesn’t speak for me or all people opposed to the referendums on Gay Marriage and Gay Adoptions, I don’t believe that Panti speaks for all in favour. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Free Speech as long as the don’t slander or libel anyone, as has happened…….

    Wouldn’t the LGBT Community be better to to appoint David Norris or someone skilled in PR to dissociate and distance themselves and state on the record that his/her radical views and attacks on people do not represent them?

    Before anyone labels me Homphobic, I reject that label. To be “Phobic” I would have to have an irrational fear of LGBT and I don’t fear anything or anybody. I also support Gay “Marriage” but I am opposed to the word “Marriage” being applied to anything other than the union of a man/woman. I have no issue with 2 people in a loving and committed relationship having the same protections and benefits when it comes to Inheritance, Pension and Health Care. It doesn’t cost me anything and people benefit as a result. I would vote No if the word Marriage was used for anything other than a union between a man and woman, and I believe a lot of others share my view, atheists included.

    It would be a shame if this amendment was rejected over wording alone when equal terms like Civil Union or the term “Gay Marriage”, which incidentally everybody is currently using to make the distinction between traditional and same-sex marriage. My own atheist views are not tempered by any religious filtering or irrational fear of any very small minority of people. I will be happy to vote Yes if the wording is correct and traditional marriage is protected.

    On the issue of Gay Adoption, I am strongly opposed to adoption in general. I am also acutely aware of the agenda of the UN, the Irish Government and the Child Abuse Industry in trying to broaden the definition of Family and weaken the rights and protections granted to the Irish Family under the Constitution. Ireland is unique in Europe and the world in terms of the protections granted to families, which of course is at odds Governments attempts to reduce our rights and freedoms, it would be a huge mistake for Irish people to give away such protections from the government, especially under some misguided notion that it helps others oppressed by a system. The Constitution exists to protect YOU from the government and we should consider the matter very carefully before giving away our rights and protection.

    I have no issue with gay people adopting with 3 caveats, that at least one of them is the biological parent and that the other biological parent has equal access and guardianship to the child, and that a surrogate, sorry, “Gestational Carrier” outside the family is not used, to do otherwise is an abuse of the rights of the child under Art 8 other Human Rights Act, Right to a Family Life. If gay people want to have children, the traditional method that developed from eons of Human Evolution is always available to them.

    If any couple cannot conceive as Nature intended it’s not society’s problem to compensate by taking someone else’s child and abusing the child’s rights to a mother and father. Adoption is child abuse, the new parents get to choose the child, the child has no say in the matter. At the present time, 60,000 Irish born victims of Forced Adoption are seeking answers and compensation from the State. It would be ludicrous of the Irish government to repeat the mistakes of the past. I don’t reckon that a large number of gay couples will adopt children but any adoption outside the child’s family is child abuse.

    It’s time we stopped seeing adoption as a panacea, it is not. 1 in 4 adoptions ends with the child being dumped back in the “Care” System where they are guaranteed to have poor outcomes in life. Can you imagine 1 in 4 children being rejected by their parents? I asked Frances Fitzgerald and the DCYA during the corrupt Children’s Referendum how many adopted children had been rejected and dumped in “Care” but never received an answer.

    There are no orphanages in Ireland and there are no doe-eyed orphans in search of a “forever-home”. Children have 2 parents and in addition have 2 sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles all capable or raising the child. The government and UN agenda that biology means nothing needs to strongly rejected, any attack on families and the constitutional protection of families needs to be preserved.

    There is no empirical data to suggest that children of gay parents have better or worse outcomes in life. There is some data that suggests that adopted people in general have slightly poorer outcomes in terms of the suicide rate and mental health. Until there is sufficient scientific data which proves that adopted children of same sex couples do better or worse in terms of outcomes, in the deficit of information we are safer to assume the status quo. There is considerable scientific evidence that children of traditional families always do better in terms of outcomes in life. Arguments such as I know someone who was adopted…. has no basis in fact or science.

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    Mute Alan Browne
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:36 PM

    I might be misreading your first paragraph but are you suggesting that there are between 250,000 and 450,000 people in the Iona Institute? That’ll be a squeeze in that office in Dublin. Especially because the same building houses the right wing Pure in Heart or whatever they’re called – along with numerous other companies the Iona guys own.

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    Mute Brian Shanahan
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:41 PM

    Don’t forget the Jugend Defence, they also share the space with Iona. Actually there are a plethora of groups which share office space and ideology with Iona. It’s as if those eight people (yes, that is the extent of Iona’s true reach Joe) have too much time on their hands, and are too interested in supressing some latent emotions.

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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:42 PM

    Judging by the fact that nearly every college in Ireland has a quite sizeable LGBT society and that I am completely unaware of any college in Ireland having an Iona society then I would hazard a guess that you are, in fact, wrong. Of course I am open to proof otherwise – current students here is your opportunity, link to your college LGBT society and to your college Iona society (or equivalent) and we can do a simple comparison. As for the membership of the actual Iona institute, I believe a study into their numbers who are resident in Ireland are a fantastic notion!

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:44 PM

    Ms. Panti defamed no one. RTE settled an alleged claim of defamation but there was no determination that the Iona Institute, David Quinn, John Waters or Brenda O’Brien were actually defamed.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 11:58 PM

    The Iona Institute has very few members and only a modest number of supporters. They have privileged access to the media and a privileged position in the media. This privilege and prominence should not be confused with a large support base.

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:12 AM

    Joe Burns admits that there is no empirical evidence to support the proposition that same sex parents can cause adverse outcomes for children, again dragging children into a debate which is not about children or child welfare, and then he says that it is safer to support to status quo.

    The continue to impose a legal incapacity on people and to refuse to allow full legal equality on the ground of sexual orientation is profoundly unfair and blatantly discriminatory. This can only be excused if there is a strong objectively valid basis for such discrimination. The only possible objective justification is absent.

    I would never seek to deprive anyone of the legal rights which I enjoy unless there was a compellingly strong and overwhelming need so to do.

    Sexual orientation does not define us. It is not a proper basis for discrimination and inequality.

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    Mute Joe Burns
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 10:37 AM

    Thanks PP. That’s the beauty of debate, you and I can have a balanced discussion and put out our views without resorting to emotional rhetoric and hyperbole. My beliefs are not so fixed that I cant change my opinion on any topic, I just prefer to do it based on fact and I stand to be corrected on anything I say.

    If you look at some of the ridiculous replies I received you see the haters who attack the Iona Institute, but not with fact, but fiction. When people resort to attacking a person or institution instead of their arguments, they are not worthy of debate. As I said the II don’t represent me and i’m not opposed to same sex union, I’m opposed to the use of the word “Marriage” to represent anything other than the union of a man and woman. It’s not just semantics, what is at stake is the rights and protections we possess under the constitution. What a lot of people don’t realise is that the Constitution serves to protect the Irish Public from the Government. Whenever the government holds a referendum, it means that we are being asked to give up our rights.

    Irish people are so gullible that they voted in favour of many referenda and gave away rights. Lisbon, Nice and the corrupt Children’s Referendum are perfect examples. Misguided (by the government and children’s NGO) Irish people gave up the right to decide for their children to the government under the guise of giving children “Rights”. Effectively it removed the child’s rights to decide for themselves in favour of the government. What are we giving up here in the guise of helping same sex couples?

    All I see on here is an attack on the Iona Institute, no real debate or facts. They don’t need me to defend them but I will stand up for the right of Free Speech for anyone to say whatever they want as long as RTE doesn’t have to pay out 85,000 to avoid a defamation action.

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    Mute Joe Burns
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:14 PM

    We are giving up the definition of Marriage and Family by broadening it so far to include anything the government wants it to mean. Family and Biology are important, ask the 60,000 forcibly adopted Irish children who were sold to Americans over the decades why they want access to their birth records and contact with their family. Read the constitution and see the protections and rights we possess as families.

    You will notice that when people are discussing this topic that they make a distinction between traditional marriage and gay/lesbian marriage. If there is a clear distinction then the homophobes cant argue against granting the same rights to Pensions, Inheritance and Health Care or they would clearly be opposed to people having equal rights.

    Even without a referendum, the Revenue could grant couples in a loving relationship the same rights as married persons, the concept of Common Law Marriage is a valid one. This was already tested in the SC. I have no problem with equal rights but the distinction is an important one in law. I don’t see why everyone wouldn’t be happy with having 2 kinds of marriage because everybody gets what they want except the bigots.

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    Mute Joe Burns
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 1:59 PM

    If you’ve been following the topic you would also have read Kathy Sinnotts excellent analysis of how the United Nations, UNICEF, switched to a radical feminist agenda and went from actually helping children to the ideology of Social Work, that Biology counts for nothing. They shifted from “Children in Need” philosophy to “Children at Risk” and the Rights of Children which has been a disaster. They also introduced the dreadful “Best Interests of the Child” principle which doesn’t benefit any child in the world. Every country in the world bar one signed up to the UNCRC which doesn’t benefit a single child anywhere, millions still die despite their “rights”. Rather than protecting children it merely gives them the “Right” to be protected. 50 years of social work and psychology cant replace eons of human evolution and Nature.

    We are straying into legal territory here where the Law of Un-intended Consequences comes into play and even the Supreme Court judges are at a loss to decide on some of these matters. I want to see people in a loving, committed relationship having equal rights to everything but adoption because it doesn’t cost me anything. When it impinges on the rights of others or we try to over-compensate by taking away or discriminating against others, we are just as bad as the bigots by practicing discrimination.

    The Irish Government can get this right, just fix the wording to differentiate between the two and then anyone who still objects on religious grounds is clearly a bigot.

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    Mute Alan Browne
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:34 PM

    Although you say you want a ‘ balanced discussion and put out our views without resorting to emotional rhetoric and hyperbole’ you obviously do not want to let facts get in the way either. Prove to us how there are 250,000>450,000 members of Iona (you claim there are more members of that group than LGBT people which using a rough estimates would be 5-10% of the population).

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    Mute Alan Browne
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:35 PM

    Sorry – posted to wring area of this page – >> Is this the details you were looking about relating to Kathy Sinnott – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP81hCVTzJE or maybe this – “It is important to remember that Valencians are entitled to a normal life, the “Polish league of families” with whom Irish MEP Kathy Sinnott sits & votes – banned tampon adverts on Polish TV, sale of beer and ice-cream, and broadcast of erotica during this pope’s visit to Poland & Auschwitz.”

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    Mute Joe Burns
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 11:41 PM

    @Alan 1 in 5 people in Ireland is LGBT? Sounds legit. Google how many Catholics there are in Ireland.

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    Mute Alan Browne
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    Jan 24th 2015, 12:02 PM

    No – 5-10% – back to school methinks for you :)
    The 2nd part is difficult to be accurate about as no one can leave the Catholic Church (thanks to the last idiot pope) but how and ever – you claimed membership of Iona which is NOT the same thing in any way as being baptised Catholic. We’ll leave it there shall we? :)

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    Mute Dermot O Reilly
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    Jan 22nd 2015, 10:26 PM

    Why was my post removed?

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    Mute Sean Spillane
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:04 AM

    This country is turning into a circus. Thank God for the Iona.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:28 AM

    Yes, light entertainment, a bit of slapstic.

    I can see it now, Carry on Iona, it would make a great movie

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    Mute Martin Byrne
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:42 AM

    But hang on… We give the ‘institute’ legitimacy by talking about them. They are not significant enough to warrant that attention.

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    Mute Alan Browne
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:31 PM

    Is this the details you were looking about relating to Kathy Sinnott – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP81hCVTzJE or maybe this – “It is important to remember that Valencians are entitled to a normal life, the “Polish league of families” with whom Irish MEP Kathy Sinnott sits & votes – banned tampon adverts on Polish TV, sale of beer and ice-cream, and broadcast of erotica during this pope’s visit to Poland & Auschwitz.”

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    Mute Ciarán O'Brien
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 1:54 PM

    “We can play games all day with this – or we could get back to the debate.”

    Odds on Ben actually bothering to debate instead of faffing about with Helen Lovejoyism?

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    Mute Anthony Lang
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 7:52 PM

    This thread of comments is unlikely to be read except at this point by Pontius Pilatus (aptly named) and by Joes Burns.

    It’s a curious phenomenon that PP presents himself as a supporter of same sex marriage. He is no such thing. note the tag team performance of PP and Joe Burns.

    PP, I will offer your corrections of your “errors”. Douglas W. Allen is not and never has been a Professor of Law. H has no legal qualifications.

    Douglas W. Allen is not and never has been tenured in Harvard University or Harvard Law School. I checked. I then Googled “Douglas W. Allen”. He is a strong opponent of same sex marriage who has published wholly discredited social analysis of social data which has been widely demolished by other academics who have relevant . I have located your Douglas W Allen. He holds a positionin Simon Fraser University in Vancouver.

    PP I no longer trust you. Accurate attribution is fundamental to trust and integrity.

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    Mute @mdmak33
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    Mar 3rd 2015, 7:15 PM

    Just vote no

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    Mute Craig Jones
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    Jan 23rd 2015, 12:05 PM

    For anyone suffering from depression, I recommend James Gordon’s system at http://destroydepression.com/info.php
    He is a former depression sufferer, and teaches a totally natural 7 step process which eliminate depression from your life.

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