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Big Tobacco says plain-packaging laws are a 'failure' - are they telling the truth?

We sift through the facts and fiction on the government’s anti-smoking plan.

Smoker Dhilung Kirat Dhilung Kirat

THIS WEEK IRELAND became the first country in Europe to pass plain-packaging laws – a move which James Reilly acclaimed as a win for the “future health of our children”.

In pushing the plan, the former health minister said there was a “wealth of evidence” showing plain cigarette packs had a positive impact and they worked to reduce the appeal of the cancer-causing habit.

Tobacco control experts in Ireland and internationally recognise that no one element in isolation can be effective in reducing tobacco consumption and move us towards a smoke free state by 2025,” he said.

New Cigarette Packets Children and Youth Affairs Minister James Reilly Sasko Lazarov / Photocall Ireland Sasko Lazarov / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Meanwhile, tobacco firms have been fighting the laws tooth and nail – threatening legal action and responding with their own claims that the laws had been a “failure” in Australia, the first country to make the move.

Japan Tobacco International (JTI) Ireland, which sells brands including Benson & Hedges, Silk Cut and Camel, says the evidence there was that plain packaging hadn’t sped up the already steady drop in smoking rates or cut tobacco sales.

It claims instead the laws have only led to a major rise in illicit tobacco use – and that more young people were actually smoking daily now than before the change.

Clearly at least one side isn’t telling the unfiltered truth about the impact of plain cigarette packaging.

plainpacks_1 How the plain packs would look

Has plain packaging cut smoking?

The latest figures from Australia are unambiguous – fewer people are smoking now than before the restrictions were brought in and less legal tobacco products are being sold.

Figures from the country’s treasury and published by its health department showed the amount of tobacco being cleared for sale dropped 3.4% in 2013 compared to the previous year. The new laws applied from December 2012.

The most recent data from its household surveys also indicated a drop – $3.4 billion in tobacco sales for the March 2014 quarter, compared to nearly $3.6 billion in March 2012.

Sir Cyril Chantler review The cigarette packs used in Australia Ella Pickover / PA Wire Ella Pickover / PA Wire / PA Wire

Those decreases are more noteworthy still when the country’s annual population growth of about 1.7% is taken into account because neither figure is weighed for the extra 400,000-or-so people a year.

Data from the country’s national survey on drugs showed the share of people over 14 smoking daily had fallen from 15.1% in 2010 to 12.8% in 2013. The proportion of the population who said they had never smoked also rose significantly.

But the proportion of 12-17 year-olds claiming to be daily smokers did go up – from 2.5% to 3.4% – the only age bracket besides the over-70s with any increase.

Smoking National Drug Strategy Household Survey National Drug Strategy Household Survey

Mostly positive news for anti-smoking campaigners then – but the big, unanswered question remains how much, if any, of the drop in tobacco use could be put down to the new packs and how much down to other approaches.

Smoking rates in Australia have been in steady decline since the early 1990s after a series of changes to advertising, health warnings and prices.

And in 2010 the country brought in a 25% excise fee hike, the first major increase in over a decade, which has been followed up with a series of smaller rises that have put the average price of a 20-cigarette pack at nearly $20 (€14).

Here’s a chart of that history:

Smoking1 Australian Department of Health Australian Department of Health

What about those smugglers?

Another one of Big Tobacco’s claims has been that plain packaging will make it easier for criminals to sell counterfeit cigarettes because the new unbranded packs would be simpler to copy.

JTI recently pointed to increased tobacco seizures in Australia outlined in annual reports from the country’s customs service, which found about 18% more tobacco in 2012-13 than the previous year.

That much is true, but the cigarette company didn’t mention that in 2013-14, the first full year the laws were operating, the seizures dropped almost 14% to nearly the same figure as before – despite the tax and price increases over the period.

Tobacco firms have also repeatedly referred to reports from KPMG which claimed illicit tobacco use had soared under the laws and crime gangs had escaped $1.1 billion (€780 million) in taxes from their illegal imports.

Smoking2 KPMG Illicit Tobacco in Australia KPMG Illicit Tobacco in Australia

However the same report says the sale of counterfeit tobacco products in Australia was minimal, which doesn’t do much for the tobacco lobby’s easy-to-copy claim.

Both the Australian government and anti-smoking groups have rubbished that report, which was bankrolled by tobacco company Philip Morris, for being based only on an online survey and counting empty packets its researchers found.

Anything else?

Other research used as a justification for plain-packaging laws has shown plain packs were less attractive than their branded equivalents – particularly among impressionable youth.

Health warnings also appeared to stand out better to smokers on plain packs, although this didn’t necessarily translate to participants being more likely to take in the messages.

While the general finding from these studies was the packaging change would only make a very small difference to smokers’ habits, it certainly wasn’t going to increase the amount of the carcinogens anyone took up.

In Australia, tobacco firms also used every legal option open to fight the laws. They waged a concerned media and lobbying campaign to sidetrack the legislation and, after it was passed anyway, took their case to the nation’s highest court on intellectual property grounds – where the legal bid was finally thrown out.

Hong Kong Smuggling An estimated $3.1 million in contraband tobacco products seized in Hong Kong which were believed destined for Australia AP Photo / Kin Cheung AP Photo / Kin Cheung / Kin Cheung

In Ireland, where Reilly has said plain packs probably won’t be on sale until May 2017, Big Tobacco has been taking a similar tack of lobbying, advertising and legal threats to defend its branding.

Some, including a consortium of health and childrens’ charities, have argued the level of opposition from cigarette companies is proof enough that plain packaging works.

First published 6pm, 7 March

READ: Government has paid €4 million to firms linked to Big Tobacco since 2013 >

READ: Ireland has just passed laws to introduce plain packs, but when will they be in shops >

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80 Comments
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    Mute Ruth Colbert
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:27 PM

    I get so annoyed when we mark such anniversaries like the holocaust etc, such hypocrites we are when this is going on in front of our eyes, oh but it’s okay because in 100 yrs time we’ll look back, mark the terrible occasion & wag our fingers !

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:01 PM

    This is the carnage, this is what Aleppo looks like now, a city which had a population half of Ireland’s with over 2 million people living it, imagine if this was Dublin, Cork or Belfast? Utter destruction akin to what Dresden experienced in WW2, and we have people getting their jolly’s talking shite about these people here every day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9CSqWQBpOo

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    Mute Rochelle
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:36 PM

    You’ll always have lunatics in any debate. Thankfully sound minded people can look at the rubble of aleppo and the far right claim that these people are opportunists looking to scam social welfare rather than fleeing for their lives and come to the obvious conclusion.

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 10th 2016, 8:08 AM

    they howl with rage if someone injures an irish child, but are perfectly happy to let 100,000s of syrian kids suffer unimaginably

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    Mute jack napier
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    Aug 10th 2016, 4:50 PM

    Jester and tariq .. please google these names for me , then tell me what you think without name calling , “effram etaim and afek oil . Look these up , read about them .

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    Mute jack napier
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    Aug 10th 2016, 4:51 PM

    Sorry Effie etaim

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    Mute jack napier
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    Aug 10th 2016, 4:56 PM

    In the wikepidia section on afek oil , it explains how in 2013 afek discover enough reserves in Syria to make Israel self sufficient , along comes Obama to overthrow Assad . Effie etaim who describes Muslim’s as a cancer is head of this drilling , he purposely created a refugee crisis and Isis as a smoke screen

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    Mute Chris Perron
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:07 PM

    If the UN or NATO or the EU built camps in Syria, then this wouldn’t happen. Bringing them to Europe simply isn’t working.

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    Mute Patrick J O'CONNOR
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:23 PM

    @Chris Perron………….That is the best solution of any.Although it should be said that Tent City in Saudi Arabia already has air-conditioned faciltiies for 3,ooo,ooo people and SA should be forced somhow to open these to Syrians.
    Tha Islamo-fascist on site here are delighted that they can try to shame us Europeans for not doing enough. but if all things were equal between a choice of Europe or Saudi Arabia the Islamo-facists would still push for entry into Europe because they desire the conquest of Europe for Islam. What;s the best thing for Islam is first and always their guiding princple and not the welfare of refugees per se.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:46 PM

    The Journal really needs to give Patrick the Rabbi his own column, it could be called The Daily Delusion – A Paradox in Nine Halves.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:56 PM

    Assad has consistently denied such access. Suggest something new.

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    Mute Jester VonDoom
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    Aug 10th 2016, 8:10 AM

    no need to add “per se” to the end of that sentence, it didn’t add anything

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    Mute Thinck
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    Aug 10th 2016, 9:33 AM

    If you build refugee camps in Syria, Daesh will continue to do what they have been doing and pick these people off as to be used as human shields

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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:14 PM

    “Experts with the Syrian Observatory for Human rights”?…its one reclusive geezer with an internet connection and Youtube in an attic in Coventry who parrotts what the Wahabbi gangs tell him to!!!

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:21 PM

    That’s the part that jumps out at you from this story? Not the human suffering?

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    Mute Robin Tobin
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:38 PM

    @petr In normal times outside of recessions people would be shocked, but Europe is fractured some countries are in recession and in these countries people struggle with daily survival.
    You raise a very interesting point, ” complanacy has crept into the Syrian hardship and horrendous cruelty , so picture of thirsty people no longer shock the world. Why because it just Syria and a battle against desh in Aleppo is taking place. It wrong very wrong because dictators decided this and people suffer.

    Just imagine if Syria had an earthquake the whole world would run in with supplies to feed the people of Syria. I bet the terrorist and dictators in Syria are not thirsty.

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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:53 PM

    @petr That thing and his friends will use any opportunity to pour venom and poison. To do so, they shall not have any empathy or compassion.

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    Mute Micheal OLainn
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:02 PM

    It is always the innocent who suffer most.

    There will always be those who lack compassion, empathy and understanding. Indeed, there are some who actually delight in the misery of others.

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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:06 PM

    True.

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:16 PM

    Right you are Michael. I often thing the racist rabble here get a kind of sick satisfaction from human suffering and misery.

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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:16 PM

    “Thing”…”venom”….”poison”…

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    Mute Mike Cantwell
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:52 PM

    This is rich Petr coming from an Islamic apologist like yourself the danger in Europe now is not coming from jackboots but from beards and veils and medieval Islamofacism , Europe defeated extremism before it will do the same with this latest plague

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:56 PM

    “This is rich Petr coming from an Islamic apologist like yourself”

    I’m a secular atheist. I carry water for no religion and no institution. But I will never stand by while entire group of people, religious or otherwise, are being demonised and degraded.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:58 PM

    The Christian Brothers at St. Mary’s, Rathmines wouldn’t be very impressed with your un-Christian views Mike, oops, I mean Eamon!

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    Mute Mike Cantwell
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:04 AM

    Never been there Liam but I have been to Gorey

    19
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    Mute Mike Cantwell
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:06 AM

    You constantly defend Islamism

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:10 AM

    You constantly miss the point Eamon / Mike. I will continue to enjoy watching your sadness envelop you.

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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:11 AM

    “Europe defeated extremism”
    I guess 40000 neo-nazis marching every year in Dresden don’t count. Neither do Front National and other extreme-right parties.

    I also guess that using extreme-right parties rethoric like “islamofascism” doesn’t count either. Neither does the paranoid idea that refugees plot against Europe …

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:16 AM

    Other things that don’t count:

    Referring to refugees fleeing war torn Syira as a “plague”

    6
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    Mute Mike Cantwell
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:45 AM

    Not at all Petr medieval Islam is the plague

    21
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    Mute Mike Cantwell
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:47 AM

    As you well know those people are marching against backward Islam but that won’t suit you seeing as you are a slave to the prophet

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    Mute David Mc Shite
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:15 PM

    This is a disaster of biblical proportions.

    46
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    Mute John Flood
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:34 PM

    Hundreds of comments on what be called frivolous articles, but only about a dozen on this article. Shows what you’re dealing with, apathy.

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    Mute Nick
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:01 PM

    Sadly true John flood sad reflection on us.

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    Mute Motherofdivinejebus
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:07 PM

    Chill out John, the article has only been up 35 minutes

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:48 PM

    @john this is a story about civilians suffering. Some here simply don’t want to acknowledge that innocent civilians exist anywhere so with no head hackers to point at its hard for them to put their prejudice away

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    Mute Fox in the Box
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:04 PM

    So long as they don’t seek refuge in Europe it’s ok

    Isn’t that right Oracle/Rowe

    37
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    Mute Brent Weaver
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:15 PM

    You’re right. Lets move the entirety of Syria and Northern Africa to Europe. Problem solved, eh?

    If only there was a force in the World that could be used to get water and aid to these people. Hmmm…

    Suppose the UN is out of the question?

    59
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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:15 PM

    That’s right I’m afraid. I’ve been around the block but I’ve actually never seen the kind of acute cruelty and lack of any human decency or feeling that many contributors here exhibit. Mercifully, I think it’s a very marginal position in society, a rag bag of knobby discontents on the Internet. If I’m wrong, Nazism is rearing its ugly head once again in Europe.

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    Mute Thinck
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:33 PM

    @ Brent

    The same UN which saved the people of Srebrenica?

    What these people need is humanitarian aid AND refuge. NOT closed borders and ripping up of geneva conventions

    20
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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:41 PM

    Fox, Yeah that’s right, it’s gone swimmingly for the Germans, French and Belgians over the last two years wouldn’t you agree??? How about the Saudis chip in eh?

    40
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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:48 PM

    I totally agree with you, Petr.

    “Nazism is rearing its ugly head once again in Europe.” As far as I am concerned, the horrors committed by the Nazis happened only yesterday. Still you will find people to diminish the horror that happened, or deny it, and copy it nowadays.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:53 PM

    Why would the Saudi’s chip in Rowe, it’s well established that they are a rogue state like Israel or North Korea who have no interest in humanity on any kind of scale, global or otherwise. Europe is different, Europe is the birthplace of many bad things, but has also been the most forward-thinking continent since the end of the Middle-Ages, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment. Europe (not the EU or any political organisation) is the torch bearer of humanity, it is frail, weak and dysfunctional, but it is not one to shirk a challenge or reach out a helping hand during a humanitarian crisis.

    20
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    Mute John003
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:01 PM

    Yea very true Jews are leaving France in large numbers
    Not possible for a Jew in Hasidic dress to walk though a Muslim area without being attacked
    Synagogues have to be guarded by the police against attack

    34
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:02 PM

    Europe should not have to bear all the burden of massive refugee numbers just because we are relatively forward thinking.

    Being a backwards s**thole does not excuse the Gulf states and others from their disgraceful lack of action to aid their muslim brethren.

    45
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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:03 PM

    @rowetten As if you cared! You are always against the presence of a refugee in Europe. Hypocrit.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:05 PM

    No, it doesn’t Malachi, but while you’re standing on your soap box waiting for Gulf states to reform people like you and I are being turned to dust.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:08 PM

    Right so Tariq, you accept that it isn’t the fault of overburdened Europe that refugees are dying, but the fault of the Gulf states who have plenty of space and resources yet do nothing?

    Glad we got that straight.

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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:08 PM

    Hypocrit…..

    11
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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:11 PM

    I never said it was Europe’s fault. Although European leaders have been central to the instability in the Middle-East over the past two decades.

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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:13 PM

    @Peter Fletcher I see you put a lot of efforts in typing the words you manage to read.
    You know you can type them on your head… Thus I won’t have to waste another second on your stupidity. And I won’t thank you in advance.

    7
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:14 PM

    Prouesse, what a laughable comment.

    Do you disagree than Saudi Arabia, for example is a s**thole? Where they execute gays, apostates, blasphemers, sorcerers, etc. in public?

    Am I over-generalising? Hahahah. Jesus. Cop on please.

    32
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    Mute John003
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:16 PM

    Liam the reformation never knew you were Protestant

    13
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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:27 PM

    How about they spend their billions on helping their fellow Muslims, instead of spending billions exporting their poisonous Wahhabi doctrine and arming various Jihadist groups across the globe??

    34
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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:34 PM

    @malakyste Again, the fact you don’t even see what’s wrong with your comment which you take so seriously, speaks volumes.

    Unlike you, I don’t a country as homogeneous block. Indeed it’s full of individuals. An individual is very different from the political power in place.
    And that’s what you forgot. You are so blind that you don’t even see that a political regime is actually oppressing members of the people. And the people is, I believe, one of the main components of a country.

    By the time you get that, Saudi Arabia will be a democracy.

    4
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:37 PM

    Prouesse, when I call a country a s**thole, what gives you the impression that I was talking about the people living there?

    I say it’s a s**thole because living there would be hell. You’re reading to much into it and attempting to shove words in my mouth.

    24
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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:42 PM

    Au contraire Malachi, Prouesse is correct, and you are back-tracking quicker than a Michael Jackson moonwalk on fast-forward.

    6
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:45 PM

    He’s correct that Saudi Arabia isn’t a s**thole?

    Amazing.

    19
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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:55 PM

    Firstwhoaaa….this is a story about conflict. Specifically one city in Syria. It’s not about the whole mean region and is not about African asylum seekers.

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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:22 AM

    The s**thole I can see here, is in your head…

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    Mute Patrick J O'CONNOR
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    Aug 10th 2016, 1:33 AM

    @Team Tariq……….As I read you Tariq you have wriiten off Gulf States, if indeed you ever seriously considered them, because you support Islamic Hijrah-the sacred migration of Muslims to conquer a new land for Islam.

    16
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    Mute Patrick O Shea
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:05 PM

    Men control and murder, its a sick wicked world mean while the military industry makes a killing literally, there’s money in blood.

    29
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    Mute Micheal Brunswick
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:33 AM

    “far right”

    What exactly is “far right” about being skeptical about a couple of million people, many of them not Syrian at all coming to our continent? Especially when there is a terror threat.

    28
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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:57 AM

    But mostly Muslim….Sunni at that…..because the west destroyed their countries…Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Nigeria, China, Eritrea, Somalia, Morocco, Egypt, Iran etc etc…

    11
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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:37 PM

    Id love to see a truce lasting weeks in Aleppo but i dont believe the coalitions of gangs Fatah Halab and Army of Conquest will stop fighting for minutes never mind weeks….its not like they care about the civilians.

    22
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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:04 PM

    There are very few forces in this conflict that care about civilians, Peter.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:06 PM

    Over-simplifying the conflict to apples and oranges doesn’t benefit anybody Peter.

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    Mute Nick
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:00 PM

    Meanwhile we watch the Olympics.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:50 PM

    Just like we did 4years ago given the whole thing started in 2011

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    Mute Ian O Connell
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    Aug 10th 2016, 11:28 AM

    Nick, what’s wrong with watching the Olympics?

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    Mute Micheal OLainn
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:10 PM

    The victims are human beings, human beings just like us.

    Differences of religion and politics are insignificant compared to our shared humanity.

    This is a real humanitarian crisis but it is not a natural disaster. It is a disaster caused by human beings and needs a human and humane solution.

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    Mute Fox in the Box
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:59 PM

    How is Rowe even allowed spout his vitriol here without censorship? His avatar has “pork eating crusader” for gods sake.

    Shame on you Journal

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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:05 PM

    Fox, Seriously, Does pork offend you? Or historically, the Crusades maybe?

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:06 PM

    What has he done that warrants censorship?

    Thankfully nobody uses our silly blasphemy laws. Are you asking the journal to be religious police?

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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:08 PM

    Fox, Arsenal, pffft, shame on you.

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    Mute Team Tariq
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:08 PM

    Rowe’s profile picture and comments, whilst childish and crawling from a cave of hate, do serve as a reminder of what we should be determined to not see Europe repeat from her past.

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    Mute Peter Fechter
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:12 PM

    “pork eating crusaders”….they were the elite….mostly French i believe.

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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:19 PM

    Liam /Tariq Yes, and as your account states, you really are the ‘Official European Integration Expert’.. Only in reality it’s just you and a sticky Koran somewhere in Wexford ffs.

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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:21 PM

    Peter, Very true, and not for them and the likes of Sobeiski, Europe would be a Sharia hell hole at present.

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    Mute prouesse f
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:02 AM

    @rowetten and peter fletcher Cruisaders enjoyed eating adult human beings and children according to Raoul de Caen.
    Team Tariq is right. It does fit with you very well.

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    Mute Patrick J O'CONNOR
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    Aug 10th 2016, 1:38 AM

    @Peter Fechter……The southern French who had long experience of the savagery of Muslim conquerers in nearby Spain over the years were the most suited to join the ranks of those heading to the Holy Land to fight the Mohammedan bandits attacking Christian Pilgrims out there.

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    Mute Thinck
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    Aug 10th 2016, 9:46 AM

    Rowe – “Does pork offend you? Or historically, the Crusades maybe?”

    What offends me is that we have someone commenting on an article about the plight of some 2 million innocents, whose sole intention is to stoke up feelings of xenophobia towards these very people

    Your avatar and comments are nothing but antagonistic to most people of the Muslim faith

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    Mute Rowe
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    Aug 11th 2016, 8:06 PM

    If my avatar offends Muslims, sorry, it’s not my problem. I did not create it to appease them, I’m sure they have better things to be worrying about such as condemning the next Islamic terrorist attack.

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    Mute Derek Durkin
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:38 PM

    People just like you and me, pawns in wars for resources started by people that live in our countries, for that is certain and the media that they own have done their best to demonise these people, because they are supposedly all Muslims. I don’t think any of these people give two f***s about religion and God, just survival.

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    Mute John003
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    Aug 9th 2016, 10:57 PM

    Removing or trying to remove dictators in the Middle East is a bad idea
    Assad determined not to go the way of Sadamn and Ghadafi

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    Mute Derek Durkin
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:50 PM

    If you put Mother Teresa in charge of one these countries that are divided up by tribes and such, she would soon turn into a thug in order to keep control.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 9th 2016, 11:58 PM

    Yes clearly no one in the region “gives a **** about religion”. Totally.

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    Mute Petr Tarasov
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    Aug 10th 2016, 12:01 AM

    Derek — Remind me, who drew the borders?

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    Mute Derek Durkin
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    Aug 10th 2016, 1:16 AM

    Central bankers of course, Petr but if you are looking for a nation to blame then Britain.

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    Mute Derek Durkin
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    Aug 10th 2016, 1:20 AM

    Malachi, if you think that most of the foreign mercenaries that make up ISIS and such are religious then think again. They doing it because they getting paid and they have free reign to do what they want. Some are Islamic terrorists, most wouldn’t know where Mecca was.

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    Mute Malachi
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    Aug 10th 2016, 2:33 AM

    If you are seriously under the impression that religion is not a huge factor in sectarian violence, including re: ISIS, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

    The Middle East has been irreversibly warped and malformed due to religious nutjobs who believe they are doing Allah’s work.

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    Mute Ian O Connell
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    Aug 10th 2016, 11:24 AM

    Guess we better let them all come to europe so

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