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AN IRISH SERVICE supported 92 victims of sex trafficking last year, according to its annual report released today.
Ruhama, which says it is Ireland’s only dedicated national frontline service for women affected by prostitution and sex trafficking, gave support to 304 women of 37 nationalities over the year.
The 92 victims of sex trafficking were from four different continents, it said.
Of the 222 women that required intensive support from Ruhama’s casework service, most had been sexually exploited, be it in brothels, hotel rooms or apartments, the report said.
Ruhama’s mobile outreach van, which visits Dublin’s streets three or four times a week, had 63 women access its supports.
Crime gangs
“The bulk of prostitution in Ireland is run by organised crime gangs who profit from the sexual exploitation of women and girls, particularly in off-street locations,” Sarah Benson, CEO of Ruhama, said.
“These unscrupulous individuals make money from human misery – moving often vulnerable migrant women in a coordinated fashion from brothel to brothel across Ireland, with a view to satisfying local sex buyers’ demands.”
Since March, it has been illegal to purchase sex in Ireland, under the Sexual Offences Act 2017.
“It is now illegal to purchase sex in this country and the penalties for organising and profiting from prostitution have been increased. More needs to be done to ensure that these laws are properly enforced, in order to achieve the objective to minimise the inherent harm of a wholly exploitative trade,” said Benson.
Ruhama is calling for the government to resource An Garda Siochana’s national and regional protective services bureaus to tackle organised crime networks.
It is also calling for a public awareness campaign “to ensure that the people of Ireland know that this is now a country where no human being can be considered for sale”.
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Prostitution should be legalised and that would help to reduce the negative elements associated with it.
@Ben Dawkins: legalising prostitution has led to skyrocketing levels of human trafficking. Legalising does not work, period.
What we have now is the best situation for the women and girls in prostitution in Ireland.
@Ben Dawkins: and would help the tax man too. There was an escort on the Niall boyland show. Said she made 900 euro last Friday night…..time for a career change
@Ben Dawkins: maybe legalizing in some way, would make it safer for them.
Couple I went to school with ended up getting into it, definitely changed the girl, the lads dead now .
Some are trafficked, but most are not, just down on there luck.
To both Ben and Veronica, do you have any evidence to back up your claims? Both systems have been in place in other countries for a period, so at this point the impact on trafficking should be easy to discover.
@Chris Mansfield: yes. Google prostitution in Germany. It is now one of the worst spots in the world for human trafficking. The rates of prostitution have skyrocketed, and the number of children being imported to be bought for sex is massive. I’m on my phone and can’t link to anything.
@Richard Wright: That DOESN’T WORK. Germany did that, and it backfired horribly. Brothels are run by organised criminals, crime has skyrocketed, as has human trafficking. Brothels are loathe to register prostituted women because they don’t want to pay taxes.
The world is not as nice as you think it is.
@Veronica: haha no its not ! I ended up meeting a foreign girl in town one day I didn’t know she was a prostitute but we did whatever (no money) then after talking on the phone and meeting up a few times she told me she has sex with men for money.we stayed friends and I went to where she lives, it was an 8 room top class apartment in the middle of town,all the women in the apartment make about 800 a day each and they enjoy it.why can’t they do what they want if men are willing to pay ?
@Alt Left: Indeed. F*ck all the women and children who are suffering so terribly, because you have an anecdotal story of a woman who loves selling sex! You totally got me, you’re right. I will indeed stop caring about the >90% of women who want out, and the children who are being trafficked in to supply the demand. You are a class act.
@Veronica: but hold on.the one case I have met any prostitutes they were rich as hell renting a massive beautiful apartment between them.so who are you to tell them what they can do ? Are you a dictator ?
@Alt Left: Are you a man who is invested in making sure women remain sexually available to you at all times, even though the average age of entering prostitution is 13.5, and the vast majority of women want out? The literature says that the best way to protect women and children, and reduce rates of human trafficking, is by decriminalisation.
Although I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you know nothing at all about prostitution in Ireland and around the world, seeing as you think your little anecdotes can counter swathes of evidence.
@Veronica: Let’s be very clear about this. A number of years ago during the consultation process for these laws the sex workers in Ireland had to fight for the right to be heard, they opposed them. It was the various NGO’s, academics etc. who insisted we needed these laws introduced, the same ones who now tell us we have this problem. Prostitution existed long before they did.
Studies from Sweden, who also criminalised prostitution, have indicated it isn’t working there, the UN, the WHO and Lancet agree. Since it was decriminalised in New Zealand they haven’t had one sex trafficking case there.
@Veronica: It’s strange Veronica. You’ve been on these threads before, yet you still don’t seem to know the difference between legalisation (as in Germany which no-one is calling for) and decriminalisation (as in New Zealand which sex workers want). Decriminalisation has not resulted in ‘skyrocketing levels of human trafficking’ or indeed any at all.
Why are you still pretending you don’t know this?
@Veronica: No-one is calling for the German (legalisation) model. Sex workers, Amnesty, the WHO & UNAIDS to name a few, favour decriminalisation as in New Zealand. Why do you insist on citing a model no-one is calling for?
@David On Tour: The comment I replied to, and very many other comments here, have said exactly that. I’m not talking to myself in here.
So you’re saying we’re calling for decriminalisation here in Ireland? Which is what we just got? I’m delighted with the fact that we now follow the Nordic model. Aren’t you?
@Veronica: How many children have been found selling sex in Ireland in say the last decade? Figures please. And is having sex with a minor not illegal under any Model?
”90% of women want out.” 90%+ in virtually any line of work would leave in the morning if they didn’t need to earn a living. That’s capitalism for you.
@The_Prince_of_Fire: Prostitution in Sweden IS decriminalised, prostitution in NZ is legal.
What we have in Ireland is decriminalisation, where prostituted people are not criminalised, rather the people paying to rape them are. There is literally nothing wrong with what we now have in Ireland, except that criminals and rapists are put out.
@Veronica: Your average age of 13.5 has been completely discredited (it’s actually based on a small sample of minors who were asked their age of first sexual contact with anyone) and in any case defies common sense. Actual studies in the UK have shown the average age is 24, but that doesn’t fit the prohibitionist nonsense narrative.
@Veronica: Oh Veronica. So we have decriminalisation in Ireland do we? OK then what happens if two women work together in the same building? Has that been decriminalised? You’re the expert, you tell us.
@David On Tour: About 75% of women in prostitution were children when they were first prostituted. 10% of migrant women in Ireland who were prostituted were under 18 (that’s only from those who were interviewed). Estimates put 25% of women trafficked into Ireland under 18.
@Veronica: “paying to rape them”? Whaaa.. Get your checked Veronica.
@Veronica: Please educate yourself. Other than the decriminalisation of street solicitation (which affects barely 10% of sex workers as most are indoors) all aspects of sex work that were previously criminalised, remain so.
Several sex workers were charged, fined and told to leave the country just a few weeks ago. You didn’t know this?
@Veronica: Total nonsense. Unless you count ‘children’ as anyone under 25.
Plus your figures here make no sense anyway. You’re stating that 90% of migrant sex workers started as adults, but 75% of sex workers started as children. Can you say Melissa Farley?
@David On Tour: Are my numbers wrong? Because to me that looks like a whole lot of children are being prostituted in this country. That will never be acceptable.
Why are you so vocally desperate to ensure that women and children in this country will remain available to men who have the money to pay to use their bodies?
@David On Tour: Yeah, not all sex workers are migrants, very many Irish women are prostituted in Ireland too.
I consider any person under the age of 18 a child/minor.
@Veronica: In Sweden it is not illegal to sell sex but since 1999 it has been illegal to buy sexual services.
In New Zealand since 2003 it is illegal to live off the earnings of prostition, to be a pimp, brothels etc. are legal as prostitution itself.
@David On Tour: I wouldn’t take it serious
@Veronica: You haven’t given any numbers. I asked how many children had been found in Ireland selling sex in the last decade. Surely you know this?
@Veronica: Me too. So again, what are the number of under 18s found selling sex in Ireland in the last decade?
@Veronica: Veronica you appear here every time there is a thread on prostitution, you throw around a few nonsense statistics, make false claims about decriminalisation and fail to answer direct questions. Your claims have been debunked many times yet you keep making them. Why?
@Veronica: Sex workers are NOT decriminalised in either Sweden or Ireland, a fact which was even proven on this site a few months ago. Please stop pretending otherwise.
@Veronica: are you stupid ? I told of how I met a prostitute not knowing what she does, we were getting seriously and she told me she has sex with men for money.its her choice and all the oth 7 women that live with her….so I have met 8 prostitutes and all choose to do it.how many prostitutes have you met ?
@David On Tour: don’t waste your time shes stupid,seriously if most of them are children that’s a pedophile ring,nothing to do with women who want to do it
@Alt Left: Veronica’s not stupid, she’s spouting prohibitionist dogma in the hope that a few readers may believe it. Her myths need to be challenged with facts.
Prostitution, Abortion, Drugs – The answer to everything isn’t “legalise it” We are a country deeply rooted with the Church and these 3 are never going to be legalised. We have 2 main political parties who are also intertwined with the church and will never make these legal at risk of alienating their voters. So as you are over 18, next election vote for a party who is forward thinking, not aligned with any religious orders and they will take the steps to legalise prostitution, abortion and weed, if it will ever happen.
@David On Tour: Respecting and loving women is not “prohibitionist dogma”. Caring about girls and boys who are groomed into a life of being prostituted is not “prohibitionist dogma”.
I’m happy to discuss it the issue because I’m very passionate about it. I just can’t stand when people act as though prostitution isn’t harming women and children.
@Veronica: really can you not get it into your head that a lot of women just see prostitution as a way to make a lot of money ? And you keep saying about pedophile rings which have nothing to do with willing women selling sex to men that want to pay…. please explain why you go out do a job for someone for money and these women are not allowed ? Btw more children are trafficked into Ireland to work in actual jobs
@Veronica: We’re talking about adult sex workers, who make up the overwhelming majority (in the US less than 3% found in the last 25 years have been underage). You have singularly failed to produce any figures for minors selling sex in Ireland but I’m sure you can prove your claims somehow.
This isn’t about children, as you well know. It’s about adults who sell sex, for a number of different reasons, but in all cases to earn money. What harms them most is having their work or clients criminalised, their views ignored and their stigma reinforced by prohibitionists who pretend to ‘know what’s good for them.’
If you want to educate yourself, talk to current sex workers. Ask them what they want and need. Look at actual figures from neutral studies. Don’t throw around stats and statements which are clearly nonsense. Then we can have a proper reasoned debate rather than the slanging matches we constantly have on here.
@David On Tour:I have met actual escorts and all of the women in that house like what they do and are absolutely rich ! Add up 800 a day thats for 4 hours total work ,obviously most men cum is less than 15 minutes so add up how much they make for the time and for the ones I have met its just a job.the girl I got close with told me her only regret is like what I did to her,nobody will have a relationship with her,but she just sees it as a job
@Alt Left: Yes there are sex workers in that situation and also others who have not had such a good experience. I know one former street worker who hated it but really needed the money. She left some years ago and has spent the years since then, campaigning against the Nordic model. She correctly points out that criminalising buyers could not possibly help any worker, regardless of their situation. Those who promote it are either ignorant of the facts (as is someone on this thread) or hate sex workers almost as much as buyers.
A minority of sex workers are high end escorts, another minority work in coercive and dangerous circumstances, but the vast majority simply work to earn money and as you say, see it as a job.
@Veronica: I think you elect to omit a very important detail about the average age of entry into prostitution activities: location. I reckon when scratching the surface a wee bit the locations are likely to be those where it’s acceptable to call a twelve year old with a Kalashnikov a soldier ….
@Veronica: so people that pay for Sex are rapists??? Get off the stage you absolute
GobSh!te !! Look you up what rape and rapist means !
Every time a model walks down a catwalk be they male or female they are using their bodies and good looks to sell a product . Should we make that illegal also ?
@Veronica: Yeah you can’t link to anything because you spout utter rubbish.
Some time ago I happened to speak to a garda friend I went to school with, a similar story was in the media at the time, he just raised his eyes and asked if this country discovered prostitution at the same time as immigration. He ‘implied’ certain organisations need to keep their stories in the public eye in order to justify their existence, and keep people in lucrative jobs.
Would not believe anything Ruhama say.
It wouldn’t be run by organised crime gangs if it was legalised and regulated. Body autonomy should extend to the right to sell sex.
@Awkward Seal: Experience begs to differ. Got your head out of the clouds. Every human being should have the right to survive in this world without being driven to being raped for money.
What on earth is wrong with you that you would put the right to “sell your body” ahead of making sure that every person is never put in the position of having to do that.
@Veronica: you’re creating a false dichotomy. Granting people the right to sell their body (a right that should be fundamental and not be restricted by the law) is not the same thing as allowing people to be forced into prostitution. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If you provide an environment where people can sell their bodies under the full scrutiny of the authorities you limit the ability of criminal organisations to get away with trafficking people. It’s very simple and it works. It’s what the sex workers themselves want.
@Awkward Seal: >. It’s very simple and it works.
Can you tell me where it works? Seriously, because every single country that has legalised prostitution that I’m aware of has MASSIVE problems with human trafficking, and the explosion of organised crime.
@Awkward Seal: Your rose tinted view of the world and men who pay to f*ck women who aren’t freely willing is outstanding.
@Ser Barristan Selmy: As opposed to all the lads here breaking stereotypes about how sexism doesn’t exist in Ireland? lol, I don’t care if you think I’m a caricature, somebody’s got to counter all the BS the fellas on here spout.
I don’t need pathetic men to like me. Defending prostitution is so low. If people who have so little respect for women don’t dislike me, I’m doing something very wrong.
@Veronica: I think I’ve struck a nerve with cool sound logic. You’re the one with the pathetic attitude. You’re judgemental and behave as if you’re mortally superior just because you’re disgusted by the actions of others (those who freely buy and sell sex). Don’t impose your hang-ups on others. I’ve seen prostitution work in the Netherlands and Australia. No system will be perfect but they’re safer than driving all prostitution into the hands of criminals, where trafficked people and those who choose to do it freely will be treated the same.
@Ser Barristan Selmy: You seem to be mistaken in thinking that I give a shit about what men think about me. If those men are content to let women in their society suffer, I have no respect for them whatsoever.
I’m here for women. I want women to know that not everyone in Ireland is a misogynist sack of sh*t, and that some of us are rooting for women’s liberation. I also want men to know that even though we live in a society where a man standing up for women will be laughed at by his brothers, that they’re still doing the right thing by standing up for women and girls.
By all means, continue trying to disparage me by making sexist comments. Only proves my point. Laughable.
@Awkward Seal: I’m not disgusted by those who sell sex, far from it. I have nothing but compassion for any person who has been so victimised by society that they have to sell their bodies in order to survive, or those that have been so brainwashed by society that they think being raped for money is “empowering”.
I’m not disgusted by any woman, man, or child who sells sex. I care very deeply for them. I’m disgusted by those that abuse and take advantage of other people’s misfortunes in life.
@Veronica: This sex workers-as-victims thing is ridiculous. Take Kate McGrew. What life’s misfortune caused her to choose a career in the sex industry? What about Laura Lee – a tougher woman you will not find. Let’s stop dealing in sterotypes and talk about the fact that almost unanimously the groups who represent sex workers say that a) criminalisation in any form doesn’t work, b) makes their lives MORE dangerous. Why support a policy that doesn’t fix the described problem and actually makes the problem worse? You don’t like sex buyers? That’s fine. Understandable even. But stop believing nonsense and listen to actual sex workers.
@Veronica: Actually Veronica you’ve really exposed your flawed thinking and ‘saviour complex’ with this post.
Sex workers don’t want, need or appreciate your ‘compassion’ and it shows a quite shocking ignorance of the subject to even think that they would. People sell sex for many different reasons, though ‘empowerment’ is very rarely one of them. The common factor is wanting to earn money and their reasons for doing so are entirely their own.
The notion that someone selling sex is somehow a victim, or is being ‘raped for money’, is deeply patronising. If anything, sex workers tend to be strong, independent people deserving respect, not pity.
I don’t believe you are a true prohibitionist, if only because you’re using debunked statistics and clearly false arguments re the Nordic Model. I do believe you feel passionately about the subject but you really need to engage with the facts and with current sex workers to be taken seriously.
It is amazing how counter-productive organisations like Ruhama are. Bad law such as the recently enacted legislation (which was actually opposed by representatives of prostitutes in Ireland) which seeks to prosecute those who avail of the services of prostitutes is having precisely the effect that it was predicted it would have: it is driving prostitution further underground and deeper into the control of, and dependence on, organised criminals.
There will always be a demand by some for the world’s oldest profession. Only naive empty-vessels, like former taoiseach Enda Kenny, would think that a civil law drawn up by him would eliminate it without having the most opposite and detrimental effect.
By the way, how did Prohibition work out for the United States? It was the making of the American Mafia.
Like I’ve said before. Crack down on the traffickers and deal with them but for those whom wish to work in the industry let them live their lives as they wish. I notice we’re going to have self injection clinics which is a good thing but when two adults want to engage in a consentual transaction (again I stress, those who decide this is what they want to do) the country and dogooders want to interfere and tell us what to do. When will this country move on ? Never me thinks.
It should be legalised. The fact it’s illegal is driving it more underground and making it more dangerous for women working in the field. It’s ridiculous that it’s going the opposite way to how it should.
What she said about organised crime gangs is absolutely false and no one in the journalistic world has the balls to call her out for her lies.
@Frank’s Cat: Nobody wants to see people being trafficked into the sex industry, especially children – but then there is very little evidence that this is taking place, and certainly not on the scale claimed.
Several years ago when restrictive laws in the sex industry in Ireland were first mooted it was realised by the authorities that those who tipped them off to any sex trafficking taking place were those best placed to do so. It was the sex workers and their clients who initially alerted the authorities and not the various NGO’s like Ruhama. However as the years went on the gardai would raid in excess of 100 brothels per year, finding no evidence of sex trafficking, except on woman in 2012. This didn’t deter Ruhama from calling for more garda resources and making press confrences, but when asked to produce the victims they never could, always citing various safety concerns.
It seems obvious that this problem doesn’t exist, or at any rate not in the levels claimed by Ruhama, their efforts are aimed at keeping self existance, nothing more.
Same scenario the world over and there will always be those preditors who buy what’s on offer… …target them and the sex industry and the gangs will slowly crumble.
Humans being used often with no other choice.
@smudge: the people who are driving the “sex industry” are the men who are buying the bodies of children and women. If there is no demand, there will be no supply.
@Veronica: exactly what I said Veronica
There will always be demand. And there will always be women who choose to meet the demand. I assume you’re for a woman’s right to choose what she does with her body? Or a man for that matter.
@Awkward Seal: no, there is no “choice” when it comes to beingg coerced into sex you dont want to be havibg. Over 90% of prostituted women want to leave prostitution immediately. The average age for entry into prostitution is 13.5. You tell me how children are “empowered” by being raped for money.
@Richard Wright: yes, the men who pay to rape women and children are indeed little darlings.
@Veronica: you’re really going to have to back up that age claim with evidence! We’re talking about Ireland btw. You don’t need to outlaw prostitution to stop kidnapping and rape. They’re already crimes. Your inability to imaging that many men and women choose that life is your problem. Why prevent them from exercising their rights when what you’re talking about is already illegal? Because you find it icky?
@Awkward Seal: Can’t google it for yourself if you’re that interested, no?
Google prostitution in Germany. My god, you are so blind to the workings of the world.
>our inability to imaging that many men and women choose that life is your problem.
What percentage of prostituted people have freely “chosen” it, do you think? Those with the security of a roof over their head, and not in poverty, or haven’t been trafficked, or aren’t addicts?
You cannot talk about choice without being clear that there is usually very little “choice” for those in prostitution.
@smudge: yep, an approach that showed such success with the prohibition of drugs..
@Veronica: if you make an extraordinary claim you need to back it up. Not doing so suggests you’re lying or exaggerating the truth. Do you expect everyone to look up each nonsense statement you throw out? Extraordinary claims brought forward without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Many people, especially women, choose it freely because they can make a lot of money doing it. You’re the one who’s making the claim that they’re nearly all coerced into it. You’ll need to provide evidence for that too. Regardless you’re advocating for limiting the fundamental rights of people based on the actions of others. It’s not right in principle.
@Veronica:
You are a moral crusader and as such cannot debate in a rational manner!
Legalise it and put in laws/regulations to protect all. Not bloody rocket science. All worker must be registered and tested frequently. If it’s a brothel owner must have clean record and I’m sure ppl could be hired to do spot checks on licenced premises if done correctly. Also get proper security to look after the workers/premises from unruly customers. Government get taxes, workers would have safety net and customers will have ease of mind. Everyone wins. Take time to put in to practice but I’m sure two – three years it could be done.
Allegedly the Gardaí know of the majority of these gangs and their places of business. Allegedly they turn a blind eye for the brown envelope. Allegedly of course.
@Pat O’Connor: There are few gangs. When Ruhamma talks about “criminals” they are talking about when 2 women work together (for safety and costs) being criminally convicted as brothel-keepers. The “criminal gangs” are by-and-large the sex workers themselves who are criminalised if they don’t work alone.
@Pat O’Connor: I’m calling rubbish on this, allegedly. You can compare the Ruhama figures yourself with those from the CSO… and something doesn’t quite match up. You’ll see that Human trafficking offences rose over 20% to 29 in Ireland last year, nowhere near what they’re claiming. Other figures say that of the brothels and premises raided 95% were owned and run by ‘madams’, making a lie of the organised gangs running the bulk of prostitution in Ireland.
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/rc/recordedcrimequarter22016/
@The_Prince_of_Fire: And the “madams” are generally the sex workers inside who own or lease the premises. It is Ruhama’s tactic to label any independent sex worker as a criminal and only report those unfortunates who have been trafficked as “prostitutes”. In fact, those who are trafficked are not prostitutes but sex slaves. Ruhama deliberately conflates the issue of sexual exploitation with prostitution.
No not all men are evil. There is hot or to show that women have also been brothel madams ..Cynthia Payne in rhe 60s and young women have lured other girls into the trade as in Rochdale.
Its the issue of “forced into prostitution” by violent gangs that’s being debated. All women should….have a choice….all children and young people should live free from abuse.
@smudge:
Just remember that forced into unscrupulous sectors of civil society is just as harmful…I know…I have been to all those places and seen at first hand.
Shame on our santamonious fools of politicians for giving into what is a ideology driven campaign by a “holier than thou” “mission driven” “para religious” organisation pretending to be interested in womens wellfare but really driven by a twisted catholic idea of morality like Ruhama
Why is it ONLY MEN in the comments who are banging on about legalising the “worlds oldest profession”??
Can’t you see that they have a vested interested in making sure that women remain sexually available to every man in the country, as opposed to being given the opportunity for a life where they aren’t raped to survive??
@Veronica: Everyone is entitled to comment. But the people who should have the greatest say are current sex workers wouldn’t you agree? And three years ago, in a study in NI, 98% said they opposed the Nordic Model. Not liking the idea of paid sex and spreading myths does not make you better qualified to speak than a sex worker themselves.
@David On Tour: >And three years ago, in a study in NI, 98% said they opposed the Nordic Model.
Be honest about why they said that though. It’s not because they love it and don’t want the government to stop their party. It’s because NI doesn’t have the legal infrastructure in place, and they were afraid that they would start losing money.
>Not liking the idea of paid sex and spreading myths does not make you better qualified to speak than a sex worker themselves.
I have talked to several prostituted women, and heard the stories of many more.
I’m never going to accept the “happy hooker” scenario because too many women and children around the world are suffering because of this. It is so utterly indulgent to say “well, some like it, so tough titties for those that don’t, and those who are trafficked, and those who will be trafficked because of the demand I’m creating”.
@Veronica: Of course they don’t want to lose money Veronica. Would you want your income reduced, your customers criminalised and your safety, choices and working conditions damaged? Who on earth would vote for that?
You claim to have talked to sex workers. Were they current sex workers? Indoor or street workers? How many favoured the Nordic Model? And why do you insist on claiming that the Nordic model decriminalises sex workers when you know it’s not true?
@David On Tour: >Would you want your income reduced, your customers criminalised and your safety, choices and working conditions damaged?
As an individual, no, I wouldn’t want that. Fortunately I can see beyond myself and know that I am lucky enough to never have to sell my body in order to survive (please god anyway), and that just because I might want something, that doesn’t mean it’s the best for everyone. The point is liberation for women, it’s not to pander to men’s erections.
And I’ve talked to current and former prostituted women (which is the term they prefer), and I’m friends with a former prostituted woman. They all favour the Nordic Model, and they all would absolutely get out if they were in a position to. All of them have nothing but criticism for Johns and the people who refuse to see their suffering.
@Veronica: Sex work isn’t ‘selling your body’ unless it involves throwing in a kidney for money. That’s yet another hopeless stereotype. You talk about ‘liberation for women’ yet you want to prevent women earning money from sexual services, despite the fact that sex workers are very clearly telling you they’re making their own choices and don’t need to be patronised for have the ‘wrong’ type of sex.
I don’t know who the sex workers are you’ve been talking to, but I know many, who in turn know dozens of others and not one (including the exited ones) favour the Nordic Model. Not one sex worker organisation favours it either. Hardly surprising as it doesn’t and couldn’t possibly help any sex worker in any situation. Since its introduction here, attacks on sex workers have increased dramatically, something not mentioned by Ruhama. No surprise as the NM is purely about disapproval of paid sex and I even had a prohibitionist admit that only last week.
@Veronica: In general people are not being raped. Not in any legal or ethical definition of the word. That is just shrill nonsense. What is not shrill nonsense is that criminalisation means women are more likely to be actually raped. Don’t believe me, a man? Ask Kate McGrew (woman) or Laura Lee (woman), or go reach out to actual sex workers out there instead of screaming at bold oppressive men.
@Veronica:
There are about 3 women in Ireland who prefer to be called “prostituted women” but there are well over 1000 sexworkers who find the term deeply offensive.
Have you ever heard of the concept “democracy”?
…and nobody’s misery has ever been improved by legislating to make their life more dangerous and the income they need harder to come by, which is the only possible impact of the current Irish legislation. There is neither legislation nor intent to offer a viable alternative or any form of valid support, so a law stands on statute that is entirely aimed at harming those it designates as “victims”.
“They are forced to sell sex to survive so we must stop them finding any buyers and stop them surviving” that is simple basic math.
These poor weak women need proper educated women to save them from men and themselves.
@Patrick O’Brien: Yeah, what they need instead is for men to continue to pay to rape them as opposed to being offered opportunities for a life where they don’t have to be raped in order to survive.
@Veronica: I know several active sex workers and not one of them considers themselves “raped”.
@Veronica: But every one of them to a woman will say they are more likely to be raped because of the recent criminalisation which criminalises women who work from the same premises (to work alone is mandated by the new law) and how much harder the new law makes it to screen potential clients.
@Veronica:
All you, Ruhama, or anyone like you are offering “them” is a life of having there hearts and minds raped to survive as long as they can be made use of to agenda, that is reality today, was reality 20 years ago and will be reality in 20 years time…
…and there is more integrity, realism and knowledge about sex work in the dirt between my toes than you could muster between you on your best day.
Ruhama yet again makes claims with out supplying the proof one would almost think they are attached to the church.
Is this article an ‘advertorial’ ? Is there a sale on ???
going by veronicas weird way of thinking the millions of women who choose to do porn are being raped. her passion for the topic means that her ability to debate is clouded.
@veronica It is undoubtedly true that men coerce women into sex but not in all instances even where money changes hands.
@Patrick O’Brien: If you have to pay somebody to have sex with you, you are coercing them. It’s simple. Whether I’m holding a gun to your head, or the threat of violence from your pimp or your children going hungry over your head, it’s all coercion.
If somebody won’t have sex with you for free for fun because they like you, it’s not consensual.
@Veronica: Sorry but that’s illogical nonsense.
@Veronica: what about women who are led on by men for sex then break their hearts? Is paying them not less emotionally damaging than that as there are no illusions? It’s not all being forced into it or having no other choice. There are women who do it for reasons of their own choice. That’s why it should be legalised and regulated. That would make it easier to find the traffickers.
@Lesley McCarthy: >There are women who do it for reasons of their own choice.
Astonishingly few women want to sell their bodies to men to f*ck for money. The vast majority do it to survive.
>That’s why it should be legalised and regulated. That would make it easier to find the traffickers.
That is not how is has been shown to work. Legalisation simply causes demand to skyrocket, which in turn causes human trafficking to skyrocket.
@Veronica: I don’t know enough about trafficking or prostitution to know what the best solution is, but it seems to me to be taking the easy option to go after the punter rather than the evil men who run the show. But one thing I see here is how this is a discussion about rape rather than prostitution. The threshold for what people are calling rape is getting lower and lower. By your definition, there is no such thing as a valid paid for sexual encounter, which means that every country in the world where there is a licenced sex industry, they are legalising rape. That seems to me to be an extraodinary thing to claim.
@David Knight: So far, according to experience, the most effective way to reduce human trafficking is to completely criminalise prostitution, i.e. make the buying AND selling of sex illegal. Full legalisation has led to massive increases in human trafficking, and decriminalisation, what we have here in Ireland, is in the middle. However, it’s been recognised that decriminalisation causes the least harm to prostituted persons.
>By your definition, there is no such thing as a valid paid for sexual encounter, which means that every country in the world where there is a licenced sex industry, they are legalising rape.
Yes. To me, and very many others, that is indeed rape. When you coerce somebody into sex, that is not sex that is freely given. If a man held a gun to your head and said that if you didn’t have sex with him, he would shoot you, would you consider that sex freely given? Would you consider yourself raped, even though you had “technically”, had sex of your own volition?
These are really difficult things to think about, I know. I struggled for a long time myself too.
@Veronica: how do you know the majority do it to survive and few do it because they want to? Have you spoken to many or any personally? We’re living in a more free and liberating time, where women can be more and do more with their bodies. There are too many angles to say one way fits all because it doesn’t. It never has! Making it illegal is taking that right away from people. And it would force it more underground. What if they made one night stands illegal because too many women we’re being raped because they were too impaired by alcohol? It just would not work. It doesn’t work.
@Lesley McCarthy: >how do you know the majority do it to survive and few do it because they want to?
Because I go by the statistics and listen to women who have been prostituted.
>Making it illegal is taking that right away from people. And it would force it more underground.
I know you’re young, but read up on what’s happened in Germany as a result on legalising prostitution. Legalisation simply doesn’t work, and has caused immense amounts of harm.
@Veronica: both sides could go on for a while and not come close to agreeing. I’m not as young as you’re portraying me to be, not inexperienced, especially in ways relating to this. From personal encounters and experiences I can’t see it continuing to be made illegal to do anything but make it worse for everyone involved. I do think your views are too black and white though, and that never end well.
@Veronica: I go to work, not because I want to, but because I want to get paid. This does not make me a slave.
If I sell someone an item in a shop, that’s not theft. Pointing a gun at me and demanding I hand the item over is theft.
This is the same false dichotomy you are making when you say all sex is freely given or rape.
@Lesley McCarthy: My interest is in reducing harm against women and children. Prostitution harms women and children (and the few men in it) extremely badly. More prostituted women have CPTSD than soldiers returning from war.
From actual experience, using Germany as an example, prostitution has only increased the harm being done to women and children, and has caused massive increased of people being trafficked to Germany to be sold for sex.
My point is that the right of a privileged individual to sell their body does not trump the right of every other woman and child not to be abused.
@Veronica: Which is why no-one (including sex workers) wants legalisation. They want decriminalisation. Why won’t you admit this? Ruhama can’t answer straight questions either. Perhaps you’re a Ruhamian yourself?
@David On Tour: David have you read a single comment on this article that wasn’t by me? All the lads are saying legalisation is the way to go, and I’m refuting that.
@Veronica: You’re claiming you know sex workers & have some knowledge. You would therefore be expected to know the difference between legalisation & decriminalisation. You would be expected to know that the Nordic model does not decriminalise sex workers. And that the ‘average age of 13′ is nonsense. Yet apparently you don’t.
@David On Tour: I’m going on statistics. If you can send me something that accurately shows that the average age of entry into prostitution isn’t about 13.5 I would love to read it.
>You would therefore be expected to know the difference between legalisation & decriminalisation.
David I do know the difference between them. I also know the effects both have on rates of human trafficking, and which is the most effective at reducing harm against women and girls.
@Veronica: no offense but you are talking rubbish and it’s insulting to real victims of rape to continue to insinuate that men who pay women ( women that make the decision of their own free will ) for sex, are rapists. You seem to have lumped three or four huge issues together and put them all in under the headline of prostitution . The issue is wether women have the right to sell their bodies for sex . And no matter the answer to that question the fact remains sex trafficking is wrong and no woman should be forced into prostitution against her will. Anyone who pays or has sex with a child is a pedophile but yet again you deliberately attempt to distort the issue by attempting to insinuate that any man that pays a woman for sex would also pay to have sex with a child.
@Veronica: what you mean your experience ? How many prostitutes do you know? As I said I know 8 now who all do it by choice they all make on average 800 a day they have a huge apartment beside henry street that they pay for so what can you say about willing men and willing women ? You are a feminazi
@Veronica: The one problem I have when reading your diatribe, is generally I have no issue with the content, rather the snideness that permeates even when Lesley engaged in conversation with you, you basically said she was too young to understand. Face it Veronica, just because you wholeheartedly believe something to be true, it does not make it true. That’s not to say there are not people forced into prostitution, be it adults or children. But for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, give it a break. RAmen.
@Veronica: Lots of sources debunking the ‘average age of 13′ myth, but one of the most pertinent is this one from Polaris, who are themselves an anti sex work organisation. Their own research suggested here that the average age was 19. The point here is that prohibitionists are seeking to distance themselves from that flawed statistic and you really should too. I can send you plenty more links if you like.
http://polarisproject.org/blog/2016/01/05/average-age-entry-myth
If you favour decriminalisation, why on earth do you believe Ireland has it when it very obviously doesn’t?
@Veronica: PS Further to my earlier post with the Polaris link, if you really think sex workers here are now decriminalised, perhaps you can explain this (not uncommon) local case from last month:
http://www.radiokerry.ie/two-romanian-women-admit-involvement-tralee-brothel/
@Lesley McCarthy:
Brilliant point.
Legalise,Regulate and Tax
@Brian O Reilly: and make it safe for all rather then driving it further underground.
Amnesty International has called for the legalisation of prostitution.
@veronica. Sex equals rape nuff said
@Patrick O’Brien: what the hell are you on about. This article is about men coercing women into sex. Sex that is not given freely/willingly is rape. I hope to f*ck we don’t know each other in real life.
@Veronica: You need to learn that the only adults who can call a sex act rape were the participants.
@Mark Farrell: No Mark, the law decides what is rape and what isn’t.
@Veronica: Which countries legally regard paid sex as rape? I won’t be holding my breath for an answer as you always seem to disappear from these threads when the questions become too difficult for you.
@Veronica: Yes and the law says that if you consented to the sex act you weren’t raped. You don’t decide consent they do
@David On Tour: None do, that’s the problem I’m clearly talking about, isn’t it?
While we’re at it, I don’t think it will ever be considered paid rape, seeing as practically every single country in the world values men’s erections more than women’s right to not being raped (look at how rapists are prosecuted even in Ireland).
@Mark Farrell: Do you think being coerced into saying yes to something is the same as giving it freely because you want to?
Suppose I hold a gun to your head and say “give me the keys to your car”. Did I rob you? If you remove the coercion of the gun, there’s no way you would willingly give me the keys to your car. It’s the exact same for sex. If any prostituted person was doing it for fun and not out of necessity, they would just be called one night stands, and no money would change hands as there would be no coercing factor.
@Veronica: Incorrect, the sex worker alone decides to give consent, their reasons do not have to meet your ‘standards’
@Veronica: Correct. None do, not even Sweden. For the very simple reason that accepting money for something does not make it coercive or rape. That’s simply another prohibitionist soundbite that falls apart under any scrutiny.
But while you’re here, do please tell us how sex workers in Ireland are now decriminalised. How about if two work together in the same building? What do you think?
@Veronica: so by your logic Veronica any man or woman that feels coerced into having sex has been raped. So if a man or woman sits down and says to their partner something like; we haven’t had sex in over a year and if it this continues I will look for a divorce. The partner fearing for their marriage feels coerced and has sex with their partner. Is it my understanding that you consider this rape?
@Veronica: what if you offer Mark a thousand euros for his car and he accepts your offer? Have you just robbed him or coerced him into selling it?
@David On Tour: Maybe Veronica disappears from these threads when the comments by sex buyers become repetitive…..yawn, yawn!
@Sharon Curley: Any repetitive comments could be due to Veronica being unable to answer the most basic questions regarding her claims.
Perhaps you can tell us how the Nordic Model decriminalises sex workers because Veronica doesn’t seem able to?
@Veronica: ”
“the law decides what is rape and what isn’t.”
Same way the law decides what is burglary and what isn’t, by a process o determination that begins when a victim makes a complaint.
Does anybody believe this crap?
Escorts are not my cup of tea and I wouldn’t want my wife or children to become one.
But there’s a difference between that and feeling the need to label escorts and clients as criminals.
Judging people for their lifestyle choices is bad enough, stigmatizing and criminalizing them is another.
People who make it their business to attempt to legislate opinion should at least be honest enough to admit so.
People who dream of a staunchly catholic 19th century Ireland, should be reminded that not everyone shares the same dream.
This whole campaign has more to do with middle age women trying to close down the last avenue of forbidden pleasure for their husbands, than it has to do with women’s rights. Though I must admit the latter sounds like a better cause to do it in the name of.
@Stan Papusa:
Here is an interesting question:
How would you feel about your wife or children having a career as one of Ruhama’s tame “prostituted women”?
Personally I would be horrified, not just because I loath Ruhama, but because the whole set up is so mentally, emotionally and morally unhealthy.
Ah the enrichment of immigration
There was a time when immigration was such an impossible dream that many risked everything and asked few questions only to be given the chance to a better life abroad. In those days many young women sadly fell victims to human trafficking.
But we’re in 2017, and most central & eastern European nations have joined the EU and airfares are cheaper than ever. The idea that a woman in this day and age has to give up her freedom and dignity in order to travel from Bulgaria or Romania to Ireland – when she can do that by simply paying 50 euros and showing up at the boarding gate – is preposterous. I’m curious what Sarah Benson makes of young, self-assured, well traveled “vulnerable migrant women” who speak English more fluently than she speaks Irish.
So unless you’re referring to non-EU or over 40 nationals, you don’t really have a case.
Why does anyone continue to fund Ruhama when it is now obvious that, when in real danger (Violent Serial Rapist of at least 12 sex workers arrested 14 Sept 2017), sex workers hate and fear them so much that they would rather go directly to Gardai (risking arest and seizure of assets) or the Uglymugs scheme run by Escort Ireland EVEN with their lives in danger?
How long will this sick travesty of “support” continue to enjoy protected status (28 years and counting)? It would help sex workers more if you gave the money to animal rescues who will, at least, never harm or lie about them.
hmmm
To Veronica:
@Veronica:
I have NEVER met an abolitionist or prohibitionist who gave a flying feck about sex workers, desperate women, desperate kids.
The best of ye, are except for the names and a few minor changes, exactly like this:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/23/the-culture-that-makes-a-jihadi-thomas-hegghammer-interview-poetry-militancy
…right down to the amount of harm you cause and the cruelty of your empathy free activities – and DON’T both arguing because I am one of the few people on earth who has dealt with both.
The worst of you are any combination of control freak and ambition junkie sacrificing anything to hand to your personal goals.
Yes, of course sex work harms people, but not as much as the circumstances (often thick with the input of people who are abolitionist/prohibitionist in their spare time) that leave some women and kids (who deserve a million times better but would not want to hold their breath till Ruhama and afffiliates including, but not limited to those who get lavish salaries for pretending to protect and care for them actually DO anything helpful or needed) with no viable alternative to selling sex TO STAY ALIVE, and even THAT doesn’t do as much harm as all the abolitionist/prohibitionist crap mocking their reality, representing them as just about the opposite of the people they are, denying their personhood, misdirecting all resources to uselessness then rubbing their noses in it.
The likes of you are so ruthless, clueless, incompetent and destructive they freely choose to sell sex with their eyes wide open to every aspect of that and how it affects them in a way your will never be, that most of them THANK HEAVEN they can sell sex instead of being forced to deal with you, because on a strict cost to benefit ratio that is how far out of line you really are.
Meanwhile this new law has generated 2.5 floors of swish offices with CCTV surveillance, a brand new van, and huge staff and absolutely no purpose to serve beyond justifying their own worthless ambition for Ruhama.
I wonder if you appreciate that I am an elderly woman in poor health who has done nothing to harm anyone, but on the contrary, used my own limited time and resources to try and prevent innocent people being harmed by asserting the truth into a tsunami of propaganda, distortion and outright lies. I wonder how many people are capable of being that honest, let alone caring that much about anything outside themselves for no gain in normal circumstances, let alone in the circumstances of my life that have never offered me access to any kind of viable future or redress?
I deserve a medal, not NGOs trying to see if they can get me killed and get away with it, which is all I ever got out of this for me. See this:
https://www.facebook.com/karen.pastore.9/activity/688583437855803?comment_id=879603252087153
Incitement to hatred that misrepresents everything with a view to inspiring serious harm very like the kind of posting that flies around telegram when ISIS want to whip up an attack in the west…except they do not specify names. It have been there THREE YEARS since two months after Turn Off the Red Light and Ruhama knew STORMONT had published my private home details…
THAT is what abolitionists/prohibitionists and you are really about, just another crowd of fanatics determined to impose their own way no matter who they have to harm to get it.
“Disgust” is too small a word for the way I feel.
After what I saw of these organisations and affiliate, when my health breaks down too far (I already have CFS because of all *ABOLITIONISTS* decided to put me through for refusing to lie and submit on command) to remain independent, I have no family so I have saved the money for legal euthanasia in Switzerland. The thought terrifies me, but nowhere near as much as the thought of being mentally and emotionally tortured in the clutches of people like you, Ruhama, Turn Off the Red Light and all the organisations that couldn’t muster the integrity to tell them to take a hike even though they knew as well as I do how corrupt, self serving and harmful it has all been.
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