33 people are homophobes. Sad lives. Sad uneducated backward simple laughing stock people

I agree Aireach, but I would add as a parent that I would never want my child to be a student in such an environment. It beggars belief that, in this day and age, nearly 100% of our public, and publicly-funded, schools are still run in line with the ethos of (mostly) the Catholic Church – even when we know from successive polls that a majority of parents do not want religious schools. This is our state education system.

Some will contend that Catholic schools these days are open and inclusive – that is utter rubbish and the facts do not bear it out. I can hardly imagine what it would be like working for years with colleagues and having consistently to hide the fact from them that I had a husband. It is completely unacceptable and hideous.

This topic is as valid as any other going on at the moment Seamus. That people in 2014 in Ireland are being judged for their sexuality is an absolute atrocity and should be openly discussed to show us for the bigoted nation we are, still ruled by the Catholic church.

One does agree, however the poor don’t have a voice. Hence, my point.

My daughters principle is lesbian in a Catholic all girls secondary school. It doesn’t bother me one bit. Doesn’t bother my daughter either.

What if indeed yes I am ‘a good competent teacher with my childs best interests at heart?’, yet a person who is made to feel worthless, berated and belittled simply because of the way they live outside of school. A person who wholeheartedly puts YOUR child first, a person who works within an environment so uncomfortable it hurts, who is looked down upon, has no chance of progression or future! A person who worked so hard to be able to teach your children yet is rewarded by being treated as a second class citizen. I shed tears for those who go through this every single day as they try to simply TEACH! Yet because of their sexuality they are made to feel lesser humans by the Catholic Church, the government and the people of Ireland! I hope and pray this referendum will mark the start of a major change for the sake of YOUR child and that they have the chance to bring up their children in country who respects people in a fair, right and just way.

Im starting to think Martin Luther and co had a point,

Winding down
A certain “catholic lobby group”( you know who im talking about,)actively campaigned to have this policy kept so schools couldn’t he prosecuted for being anti gay
In other words the schools could sack perfectly good teachers if they knew these perfectly good teachers were gay
Disgraceful truly disgraceful

Mr L Jay: Let’s all called a spade a spade here, and name and shame them. The Iona “Institute”.

If a lobby group exerts such a sinister influence on Irish law, why shouldn’t they be called out for for their homophobia? People need to know what impact groups like this are having on our democratic society.

Whatever happened to the constitutional right to earn a livelihood? The daily fear that gay teachers must live with in the workplace, knowing they can be sacked tomorrow for loving somebody of the same gender, is quite unfathomable.

Theres no doubt Iona exerts a sinister influence on our political parties. The payout is another example of this.

Any possibility we could sometime have a debate about what it is like being a separated or divorced person in the Ireland of today and how lonely a place that can be.

Contact the Journal and see if they’ll take a piece from you about it. They’re quite open to taking stuff off members of the public. Then you’ll be the one starting the discussion and it’ll be from the point of view of some one who experiences it rather than being told what it’s like by someone outside the experience.

Thanks Ciaran will do that was not aware could do so and apologies for introducing an unrelated topic

The fact is that this is the tip of the iceberg. If people do not want schools run expressly along the lines of Catholic doctrine and the Bible, then we all need to be telling our Government in the strongest possible terms that we want them to give contracts and funding to deliver our state education system to education providers that are completely inclusive and non-sectarian.

Because this is the situation: while successive polls show that parents do not want schools run along religious lines, we still have nearly 100% of schools that are run in line with a religious ethos – an ethos that is absolutely not just restricted to RE classes, let us make no mistake here, but pervades the whole education of our children.

I have nothing against any religion and people’s right to choose their own lifestyles, but I do object to this warping of even our own most basic state equality laws to satisfy the voracious need of one group to control the development of our children and ensure they are inculcated only in one narrow set of beliefs.

It is hideous that parents who do not share this medieval outlook mostly have no choice when it comes to choosing a state school for their children – this is a state system we are all paying for and there is no equality and justice for the majority of parents who do not want a segregated religious education for their children any more than there is for those hapless LGBT teachers.

Sorry, I meant to say that successive polls show that a majority of parents do not want a segregated religious education for their children!

Actually there is clear demand for quite a few type of schools. There is no reason to insist one type only unless you have a problem with pluralism.

Michelle we don’t want them run on the principles of the Quran either. We want them secular and we don’t want a day to come when male only teachers are recruited .

Exactly Yako! There is demand for all types of schools – and yet we overwhelmingly have Catholic schools! A poll commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals Network showed that three out of four parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice. So how is that plurality…

Nobody is insisting on one type, but in an area where you have people wanting all different types of schools and there is only funding and numbers for one school, then nobody should be able to insist on one type and so we clearly need a school that can cater for all in these instances – my own personal preference would be for non-denominational schools, but I guess we could all compromise in this kind of situation on multi-denominational schools since they actively celebrate the religious background of all students.

We are far from plurality in Ireland at the moment.

Well Catherine, since we are starting from a place where, for historic reasons, nearly 100% of our state schools are controlled by religious orders, while two thirds of parents would like the choice of a patron other than a church, that is why we have this religious influence in schools in Ireland. I cannot see this happening with Muslim schools in Ireland unless there is a very clear demand from parents and many Irish people become devout Muslims, which seems extremely unlikely. I agree with you that I would prefer schools to be secular and simply cater for all – just the way universities do, or libraries do, or any other public service.

We need to be clear, – Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act is the root cause of this particular problem, – and it is not just LGBT people that face discrimination under this Act, – non-religious people or those that do not tow the line with the given religious doctrine can also face termination of their employment.

And yet their wages are paid by the state, which is not a religious order and not permitted to discriminate – same goes for any catholic ethos hospital.

If they want to discriminate, perhaps they should actually be the employer rather than just the location of employment.

sounds like something you’d hear from the Neanderthals up here in the north…..

David Quinn, what is he like?! My response to him would be: how about the State stop awarding contracts to deliver our STATE education system to Catholic patrons then, if they are not capable of delivering an inclusive and ethical educational environment? You would think they funded their own schools!!! The fact is that, as well as giving them funding to deliver OUR state education system, the state has spent billions in refurbishing and often completely rebuilding the majority of Catholic schools, which I presume then remain the assets of the church… if they want to go it alone, good luck to them… otherwise do not try to threaten and blackmail us all… unbelievable!

“sadistic violent aggressive paedophile corrupt cult manage to strike a deal of immunity with lawmakers ”

If you are going to comment you should try to keep to the facts. There is no legal immunity here. No one would/ has fired anyone for being gay. So lets cut the misinformation please.

“They don’t even pay the wages of teachers.”
Actually they do they fund the schools. Until recently it was a major part each school’s funding.

Are you actually saying that the catholic weren’t violent and sadistic? Where have you been living the last 100 yrs?? Are you for real? Facts, facto, factual, facty, established fact.

Also have a look into the paltry sums of money’s that go to teachers from that deal you’re referring. Peanuts. Nothing. Get your facts in order yako wako. You should learn this from your daily job.

Wrong, two weeks ago a teacher was suspended and later dismissed over Showing a video of Panti Bliss’s Nobel Call video. The one that basically condemns homophobic bullying, She was unable to speak out as she knew she would not get another job, her colleges did however. So maybe you should get your facts sharpened.

Also, teachers are paid by the department of education.

I was babysitting a while back and asked if the kids wanted to play on the trampoline , i was met with “that’s so lesbian” ,i asked him why jumping on a trampoline was women loving other women and he littrally had no idea whatsoever .I agree that is ingrained but we also need to educate kids so they they properly know homosexuality is and don’t spout this nonsense!

True Eimear, but in some ways it is wrong to blame children for reflecting society’s biases – what is needed is sensitive education and awareness-raising on LGBT issues, but you are never going to get that in a Catholic school, and that is the problem.

As I understand it, a majority of Catholic state schools had still not implemented the state’s Relationships and Sexuality curriculum when inspectors last looked, even though: they are obliged to do so; it is a deeply moral and responsible curriculum; and they even get to change it to suit their ethos.

This is what we are doing to our children.

A friend…. They?
I hope you’re friend, they, didn’t teach you English.

D1
Dont be inconsiderate

D1: Yup – here’s a heterosexual story, posted not two hours ago. This is the link, in case you missed it: http://www.thejournal.ie/scientology-wedding-london-britain-first-united-kingdom-1330315-Feb2014/

Yes please. More stories about straight, white, middle aged men and how oppressed they are. Almost as oppressed as ice cream and fluffy things.

You mean stories about life for the non-subjugated, always tolerated majority? what Martin Grehan said

There’s always one. Go on, tell us a heterosexual story.

Yako, you have to admit that the church hasn’t exactly covered themselves with glory with their response to their wrong doings.

Diarmuid you clearly have never been a woman working in an all male environment.

Fair enough Keith.. So if you are gay you should avoid becoming a teacher if you wish to work in Ireland.
Because the vast majority of schools have a “catholic ethos”, over 90% in fact. Even when you bear in mind that the best possible figure Catholics can cite as followers is 84% on the census (bums on pews would not garner this high a figure), this means that in terms of education – Catholics are grossly over represented.
And if you’re gay – they are legally allowed to discriminate against you.

A vegetarian won’t WANT to work in a butchers, but a gay person may very well want to teach, and the over represented catholic school cabal actively discriminate against them. So your comparison is quite frankly nonsense. The fact remains that these organisations – who do not even pay the teachers (the state, ie YOU AND ME, does) they merely sit on the board of management, and are happily discriminating.
Any other industry (except hospitals with a “catholic ethos”) would be rightly forced to compensate someone for this form of discrimination under the equality act 2004.
Their religion is being used as an excuse for bigotry – something the figurehead of said religion was supposed to be against.

There are a lot of places in Ireland where there isn’t a non-denominational school. And given the economic climate, people might not have an alternative. They have bills to pay, same as the rest of us.

No Shanti, you should seek employment in schools that don’t have a religious ethos. If 10% (and growing) of schools do not have a religious ethos then that provides more than enough opportunity for gay people, who most certainly do not make-up 10% of the population.

Why are religious schools so popular (even when non-religious schools are available)? I would suggest that part of the reason is that parents know that the teachers have to conform (at least in principle) to a certain set of religious and moral teachings.

Take religion out of schools now!! Free thinking future for our kids please

Then if it’s such an issue, move to a place that offers more options. The big cities (esp. Dublin) already serve as a magnet to the “gay community”.

nialls, thanks for that insight into the fascistic thinking in some of he anti-religious mob. It really does help to show how gay people are being used as the thin end of the wedge to drive religious thinking and morality out of society and how some gay people are stupid enough to be used as pawns in this.

Pray for our souls Keith.

If it’s a private and self funding school then it can adhere to whatever “ethos” it wants, but not if it’s funded by the taxpayer, no way do I want my taxes supporting an unjust discriminatory policy particularly from an organisation that often doesn’t adhere to it’s own ” ethos” ie shielding paedophile priests.

You do realise that Christians pay tax as well and are entitled to have a say in how their children are educated?) If there was no demand for these schools, they would did away and there would be huge demand for non-religious schools. If anything the opposite is true. There is nothing unjust about an employer asking its employees to respect its ethos. It happens all the time.

One basic question that hasn’t been asked on this thread. How many teachers have been sacked for their sexuality? Because if the answer is “none”, this is a total non-story.

Keith.
Why are the schools so popular? Er, they’re not.. They just happen to be the local schools and parents have to go through the whole charade of a baptism just to get their kids names down – because the school is allowed to “favour” children “baptised in the local parish”..

See? The whole reason we even have 84% identifying as catholic in this country is because up until relatively recently the only option for most was to be baptised, communed and confirmed – just so they could avail of the STATE funded free education.

If a catholic school wants to discriminate and be catholic, let them – but let them pay their own teachers and get minimal funding from the state. As the situation stands now our government is funding this openly homophobic discrimination, by people who claim to live by the ethos of “live one another as I have loved you” ie, unconditionally.

Keith I’m not anti religious. I do think, however that religion is anti society. I think that if parents want there kids to learn that stuff (much of which is preaching hate against many groups, not just gay) then teach their own kids. So yes there is a connection

The fact is they ARE more popular, look a the application numbers for second level and you’ll see it. Once again Catholics (and all Christians) pay tax which funds schools.

There is nothing “homophobic” about this. It is simply observing and respecting the religious ethos of the school. Again if gay teachers have such a big issue with respecting he ethos of their employer, look elsewhere for work. If I felt uncomfortable with the ethos of my employer I wouldn’t work for them, even if it meant the minor inconvenience of moving house.

sorry nialls You cannot seriously suggest you are not anti-religious and then follow it up with that bile. You’re either a troll or in self-denial.

Keith I’m an atheist Thank GOD!! Relax my man :)

I am not anti religious. I have nothing against anyone practicing any religion. I do, however, have a problem with religion influencing our kids from a young age. They can make their own decisions when they are 18. They can look forward to their first pint and first communion at the same time if they want…..their choice!! Why the need to brainwash them??

Brainwash away in your own time. Don’t stop my kid from having extra science and maths classes because they have to attend religion classes (not to mention all the hours lost preparing for communion/confirmation). I didn’t vote for the Catholic Church to educate my child.

Oh dear.. Whatever about the patronage of primary education, you realise that there are even LESS options for secondary schools right? Even those who send their kids to an educate together primary are often forced to send their kids to a Cathie secondary – even around Dublin and it’s suburbs.

It’s got nothing to do with demand for a catholic ethos, polls have consistently shown that parents want more non denominational school options.
The numbers applying has nothing to do with whether they are “popular” it’s to do with what is available..

Are you seriously trying to argue that the reason we have so many catholic schools is because that’s what people want?
And yes, Catholics pay taxes too, but what about all those who aren’t catholic having to find schools whose primary purpose is to indoctrinate kids and educate them second?

I mean look around you, the standard of education in them can’t be too good – far too many people don’t understand grammar, even less understand logic. These should be among the basic building blocks of an education.

Cathie? Where did I get that from? I meant catholic.

There are very few non religious schools in Ireland so looking for a job elsewhere wouldn’t be possible .This kind of treatment applies to straight teachers also , I was told that living with my boyfriend would contravene the ethos of the school.

@Keith…

How nice it must be to sit and judge and never even imagine what it’s like to walk in someone else’s shoes…

When you said gay people suffer from “self inflicted victim it hood’ kinda said it all for me…

@Keith Mills..

Were you not on the Saturday night show recently with Breda O’Brien’s son – the homophobia debate? …

Lovely election poster of Ronan Mullen on your facebook by the way…

Someone doesn’t understand their stats very well. Parents sending in more applications to Catholic schools when Catholic schools are the majority of schools in Ireland does not mean that the majority of parents want to send their children to Catholic schools.

Children have to be educated until they’re 16. Parents who work full time can’t home school their children. Plenty of parents can’t afford to pay for a home school tutor, nor can many afford to move house or pay high transport fees for their children to attend a non-denominational school that isn’t nearby. It’s ridiculous to claim that Catholic schools would have died out if parents didn’t want them when there are very few places available in non-denominational schools and education until the age of 16 is mandatory by law. Would you expect the parents to simply not send their children to school and face fines and jail time? I’d take being sent to a Catholic school over having my parents prosecuted if it was up to me.

I went to a Catholic school, which prioritised students on the basis of religion and nepotism – if you were a Catholic and had relatives who had attended the school previously, you were more likely to get in. I never experienced my teachers being homophobic, but I certainly saw homophobic behavior from my peers. I was forced by my teachers to participate in masses when I identified as agnostic. Another teacher made a snide remark about me when I chose not to embark on a religious day trip with the rest of my year. I had to participate in mandatory religion class in senior cycle, despite not being examined in the subject for my Leaving Cert. That was 1.5 hours a week I could have better spent preparing for my exams or taking extra classes in languages, maths, or physics. I’d have much preferred to attend a non-denominational school.

Oh dear goodness it *is* him..

That explains a lot, and the picture of Ronan Mullen is the icing on the cake..

Well, I did say catholic schools did a poor job of educating people to think critically, instead they teach blind trust in the authority.

I dunno about anyone else here, but I would prefer kids to be taught *how* to think instead of *what* to think..

But 96% of schools have a Christian ethos according to Ruairi Quinn in the Seanad debate on the failed FF bill to scrap Section 37 in 2012.

there are so many non-religeous schools in this country that of course a gay teacher would have a great range of choices as to where to work……………..oh wait we don’t

and a gay teacher would have a great range of choices as to where to get a job in a non-religous school because there are loads of those…………….oh wait there aren’t.

With you on this one Shanti

Shanti, you are so right. I never knew schools could fire a teacher because they are gay. That is bizarre. Do they think it’s catching?

I disagree with your statement to take religion out of schools, I would suggest that the RE curriculum be reformed to be less about teaching one specific ethos and more about learning about tolerance and understanding of the various belief systems and giving children food for thought on what makes sense for them and the space to question what is they believe while learning to respect what other people believe.

Agreed Nikki, it’s better to learn *about* religion because it informs context about the customs and histories of other places – and to remove it altogether would make us all very ignorant of the world.

Being taught *a* religion, alongside being taught *about* other religions through the chosen religions lens holds up a skewed version and therefore not likely accurate version of those other religions.

For example – being taught that Buddhists worship Buddha. I thought this until I went out and learned more myself. I was never taught anything at all about seikhs, what I was taught about paganism was that it was a murderous, evil bunch of devil worshippers – which is not true in the slightest. And apparently some schools teach that atheism is bad too, which is utterly ludicrous because there’s no set ideology in atheism.

I have seen catholic school children recoil in horror and start blessing themselves when they see a Muslim woman boarding the bus they’re on within the past 5 years.

If you are going to have a religion class, it needs to be objective. Lest it end up becoming a vehicle to fuel hatred.

Well Keith, when Christian schools stop taking state money to deliver a state education, you might have a point, but wait.. no, you really still would not. Would you think it OK for, let’s say, universities to discriminate against Christians and only tolerate them attending university on the strict understanding that they never even mention the fact that they are Christian?

The other point is that, despite successive polls showing that more than 60% of parents do NOT want a religious education for their children, our state is mysteriously still funding (with all our money) nearly 100% religious schools to deliver our state education system, and also paying for the refurbishment and re-building of those schools’ assets. Basically it is not a system where independent schools get state funding – it is a situation where the state is contracting with religious organisations to deliver our STATE education system, and is also paying for the buildings, which remain the assets of those organisations. These religious organisations simply could never stand alone.

In that respect, with our money and being contracted to deliver a state education to nearly all of our children, who come from families where a majority don’t want a religious education, I would suggest religious schools realise how very lucky they are that we are all supporting them with our taxes (even though I don’t want to) and try to start complying with the law of the land and basic justice and respect.

Keith, let’s have some facts:

A poll commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals Network showed that three out of four parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice. Successive polls all show that a majority of parents (no matter what their own religious convictions) do NOT want their children to attend a religious school.

96% of Irish primary schools are run by a religious group. These schools receive state funding.

It is an utter delusion that a majority of parents actively CHOOSE to sent their child to a religious school. Given that nearly all schools are religious, firstly most parents in most parts of the country do not have the choice IN OUR STATE EDUCATION SYSTEM to send their child to a school that is not (most likely) one with an avowed Catholic ethos.

Some parents choose fee-paying Catholic schools (also subsidised by the state) because they think their children will get a better education, smaller classes, frankly not have to mix with the hoi polloi). This is mostly not because those schools are Catholic. For the majority of parents in a government study I saw, this is not at all high on their list of priorities when choosing a school. Fact.

If a state education system wants to cater for all in a situation where a majority of parents want a non-religious patron for their children’s school, then the state should direct that funding, and award those contracts, to those who can deliver an education system that respects and includes all. It is a fact that even religious parents do not necessarily want a segregated education for their children, so numbers of people who say they are Christian on the census (it’s also well known many just put what they were christened without thinking) is not even relevant. If you are a cash-strapped state and you want to provide a service – let’s say universities, libraries, etc – would you set up separate ones for each religion (in each town) at massive cost; only have ones that cater to a minority (as with our current education system); or set them up simply to cater for all?

We have to stop giving our state funding to religious patrons – let them stand on their own two feet.

“We have to stop giving our state funding to religious patrons – let them stand on their own two feet.”

the patrons own the schools. The very buildings themselves as they built them with generations of private fund-raising. So if you want to ban patronage you will need to start building a lot of extra schools. The beauty of the current system is that it caters for people to adjust supply to match demand. This is happening as it stands. More ETs are being set up. The system works.

You mean like the universities do in Iran where Bahai students are routinely expelled or denied access to a university education because they are not Muslim ? I have a friend who us not Christian and completed a degree in theology with no issues at all .

Yako – a massive chunk of the buildings in our schools while being built on land a belonging to the church were also built with public money.