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THE SEANAD REFERENDUM was defeated today, a result that had not been indicated by any previous opinion polls but had been flagged on the doorsteps.
It was a tight count with the margins close in many constituencies. But Dublin – and much of the east coast – voted overwhelming against the proposed amendment to abolish Ireland’s second house.
Turnout at 39 per cent was low, but better than expected. We brought the results to you as they came in. Here’s how it went down.
Good morning and welcome to our referendum count liveblog as the ballot boxes are open across the country. It’s Hugh O’Connell here and together with Daragh Brophy and Rónán Duffy we’ll be bringing all the latest.
There were reports last night of some considerable confusion caused by the two ballot papers. Our own Daragh Brophy said people were confused by the different colours and which paper was which when he went to his polling station.
Here’s what voters were faced with when they went to cast their vote last night:
From the chairman of the Fine Gael party:
One Labour TD, Dublin South East’s Kevin Humphreys, is calling it:
Charlie Flanagan, the Fine Gael chairman, is on Morning Ireland and says that “we’ve really got to go back to the drawing board” on running referenda saying voters were confused when he was out and about yesterday.
“There was an element of confusion and I think the element of confusion is borne out in the wording of the ballot paper, ” he says, adding: “We don’t really simplify things that are straight-forward”.
Despite all this he then says it’s not a time yet for post mortems but does call for a permanent Referendum Commission to be established. Incidentally Environment Minister Phil Hogan said this week he hopes to do that at some point in this government’s term.
Also on Morning Ireland, Sinn Féin Senator David Cullinane says that the whole referendum campaign was a “shambles”. No surprise there.
Labour’s Meath East TD Dominic Hannigan is also on Morning Ireland and says in relation to Kevin Humphrey’s tweet that “if Kevin says it’s a No in Dublin South East, then its a No in Dublin South East”.
He says he was meeting No voters most of the day yesterday. But what kind of company does he keep?
By the way some of you are already querying if its referenda or referendums when it comes to the plural of referendum. Our former colleague Gavan Reilly explains this very well indeed.
“I think an awful lot of political parties in Leinster House were surprised when the Taoiseach proceeded with this referendum,” says Fine Gael TD Simon Harris on Morning Ireland. He’s probably not wrong.
Early tallies indicate that it’s close and in Dublin there are lots of tallies which indicate a No vote there but it’s still too early to be definitive about anything.
Lots of chat about Dublin but here’s what Fianna Fáil activist Ken Curtin is tweeting from Cork:
Here’s our report on the confusion caused by the ballot papers.
As you may know Donegal is traditionally a part of the country that rejects whatever the government proposes. We’ve just heard our first reports from there on RTÉ which indicate it’s a No in Letterkenny to Seanad abolition but a “slight Yes” to the Court of Appeal referendum.
A Fianna Fáil stronghold looks set to reject Seanad abolition, according to Sinn Féin anyway:
He hasn’t gone away you know: Declan Ganley – who called for No vote in the Seanad referendum – has an idea:
So what do ye make of the confusion caused by the ballot papers? It’s been pretty active in the comments so far this morning and this is a flavour of what’s being said:
“Counting is under way in the Republic of Ireland on referendums to decide the fate of the Irish Senate, Seanad Éireann,” says this brief BBC News report this morning. We’ll have a look around to see if there is any other international coverage.
Conspiracies, conspiracies, conspiracies:
So at just after 10am, here’s what we know: Early tallies in Dublin indicate that the Seanad abolition referendum will be rejected in Dublin, but elsewhere it’s looking like a Yes vote.
But it’s still too early to call. It’s tight, that’s what we can say for sure.
“Mary actually raises a fair point,” Fine Gael TD Simon Harris agrees with Mary ‘Mammy’ O’Rourke on RTÉ One’s coverage of the referendum count in a rare outbreak of bipartisanship. They’re talking about the confusing ballot papers. Everyone on the panel appears to agree that the ballot papers are far too confusing altogether.
Whatever about Mark Daly’s tweet earlier here’s Fine Gael director of elections Richard Bruton doing a tally in the RDS this morning:
Pic: Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland
“It’s very early days,” says Richard Bruton on RTÉ One. Asked if there appeared to be a lot of No votes in government strongholds, Bruton says: “I don’t think you can detect patterns at this stage.”
He doesn’t look confident, if we’re honest.
Another pic of a pensive looking Richard Bruton…
If you’re interested in what’s happening in Wicklow, Stephen Kearon is keeping a live Google Doc right here. A very slight Yes there with a fifth of the boxes opened.
“I don’t think anyone can call the thing yet, and certainly not on Twitter,” says junior health minister Alex White on Morning Ireland saying it’s 55-45 No in Dublin South. “It seems to me to be trending No,” he says, at least in Dublin anyway.
Alex White was pretty despondent on Morning Ireland there. He cautioned that it is tight but appeared to admit the Seanad abolition referendum has been lost in Dublin at the very least.
On turnout, early tallies appear to indicate that it will exceed the 33 per cent that came out for the Children’s referendum last November.
Sinn Féin TD Mary Lou McDonald says “the Nos have it” in her own constituency of Dublin Central. She says it was a big mistake for Enda Kenny not to debate the Seanad referendum and to “rush this issue” and not put it the Constitutional Convention.
McDonald says that in the event of a No vote, it would “be a disaster for all of us” if the Seanad is not reformed.
“I would call on the Taiseach to very smartly, without delay to see out the precise manner in which that reform happen,” she says.
She says the matter should be referred to the Constitutional Convention. If it’s a No, that is.
On Morning Ireland, Fine Gael TD and deputy director of elections Regina Doherty says it is 55 to 45 per cent No in Meath East. “I wouldn’t be as definitive as Mary Lou [McDonald] is about an overall No,” she says.
As of now it’s looking like 55 – 45 in favour of Yes vote in Mayo, local Fianna Fáil TD Dara Calleary tells Morning Ireland.
So why is it so close when opinion polls showed a clear lead for the Yes? Well, because there were still a lot of undecideds as of late last week.
An Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI that was published on Monday and carried out late last week showed that over a fifth of voters were undecided. And Don’t Knows tend to swing to No, as appears to have happened.
At 11am it looks like Dublin will reject abolition of the Seanad but it’s still too close to call across the rest of the country and as a result we cannot say definitively which way it’s going to go.
NUI Maynooth lecturer and elections expert Adrian Kavanagh…
Senator David Norris is in studio with Marian Finucane on RTÉ Radio 1. “The indications are looking quite positive for the Seanad,” he says.
Out in Galway West, it’s not looking good for this Fine Gael TD:
Here are a couple of more pictures from the count at the RDS courtesy of Photocall Ireland:
On RTÉ One, Alex White has conceded in Dublin but is not yet sure about the rest of the country.
Hugh O’Connell signing off now to head down to Dublin Castle. My colleague Rónán Duffy will take over liveblogging duties. Hope to bring you coverage from the Central Count Centre a little later.
Good morning, Rónán Duffy here. Well it’s looking far tighter than many predicted. We’re hoping for a result some time in the late afternoon according to those down in the count centre. A lot of votes to be counted and talking to be done first though.
Senator John Crown isn’t making any presumptions on RTÉ. He says the the ‘No’ side on which he was a prominent voice has a had a ‘positive’ start to the count. He speaks directly to Taoiseach Enda Kenny:
If there is a no vote, it must be seen by him as winning a mandate to bring about the reform we’ve all been working for.
Tallies all over Dublin still trending ‘No’, the capital looking fairly decided so far on the issue. Even in just eight words the Minister for Transport seems resigned to his constituency going against the government.
Our political editor Hugh O’Connell has arrived at the count centre and has written an update of the feeling among politicians down there.
It still looks like Dublin has gone ‘No’ but it remains to be seen if this trend will be replicated throughout the country.
Hugh O’Connell here at the Dublin Castle Central Count Centre where it’s fairly quiet so far.
Former Fine Gael Senator Fidelma Healy Eames is around and says it looks like the referendum will be defeated in Galway West which is good news for her.
Meanwhile, we saw Leo Varadkar below resigned to a ‘No’ vote in Dublin West. His final tally is now completed: 53 per cent No, 47 per cent Yes.
“Sin é”, he says. Not quite nationally but we’re getting there.
Before today there have been four referendums during the lifetime of the present government. The current score is three Yes and one No.
The judge’s remuneration, fiscal compact and children’s rights referndums were passed but the Oireachtas inquires vote was defeated. Today is obviously still in the balance with voting on the Court of Appeal referendum due after the Seanad count.
Senator John Whelan has a theory about the uncertain start to counting
Niall Collins, Fianna Fáil’s director of elections, has been speaking down at the count centre, saying that Fianna Fáil put forward “coherent arguments” which demolished Fine Gael and Sinn Féin’s position. No mention for Labour there interestingly.
The first constituency result is in for the Seanad vote! It comes from Galway East and the first numbers on the board are just about good news for the Yes side:
(Referndum.ie)
Tipperary South has competed it’s count now too and is extremely tight:
Yes: 50.41
No: 49.59
Here’s what Fianna Fáil’s Niall Collins had to say at Dublin Castle a few minutes ago:
I think deep down, the people within Ireland, they value their political institutions, their democratic systems. Nobody was arguing for the status quo.
The Taoiseach’s spokesperson has been in to see us here at Dublin Castle and says it’s “too close to call”.
State of play at this early stage:
Paddy Power are today calling the result of the Seanad Referendum early and paying out on a ‘No’ result.
This man down the count centre will be happy:
(h/t Fiach Kelly)
We have our first No of the day as Cork South Central goes with its local Fianna Fáil TD Micheál Martin:
Yes: 48.73 per cent
No: 51.27 per cent
Second result from Leeside, this time Cork North-Central:
Yes: 51.84 per cent
No: 48.16 per cent
Most decisive result so far from Kidare North:
Yes: 45.39 per cent
No: 54.61 per cent
That last result has put the ‘No’ side slighty ahead.
Results from Dublin which is tallying ‘No’ are expected to begin coming in from 2pm.
Dublin South West has completed its count. It’s a no.
Yes: 47.68 per cent
No: 52.32 per cent
Sinn Fein TD Dessie Ellis does his sums at the RDS. Pic: Niall Carson/PA Wire
As is the trend around the city, Dublin Mid-West votes ‘No’:
Yes: 45.3 per cent
No: 54.7 per cent
It’s only 2 o’clock but the future of the Seanad is looking safer and safer.
Our first result from the north-west of the country comes from Donegal North-East:
Yes: 48.31 per cent
No: 51.69 per cent
Both Donegal constituencies were the only two in the country to vote against the Children’s Referendum last year.
First win for the ‘Yes’ side in the past 50 minutes but it’s by just 201 votes in Tipperary North:
Yes: 50.38 per cent
No: 49.62 per cent
If you’re from the Kerry North- West Limerick constituency here’s how you voted:
Yes: 53.84 per cent
No: 46.16 per cent
Leo Varadkar is on RTÉ One right now and points out that all panellists – him, David Cullinane, Mattie McGrath, and Niall Collins – appear to have lost their own constituencies.
He says that there is no appetite for reform given that most people did not come out and vote. He said he doesn’t agree that with the idea that a No vote is a vote for reform. “Most people aren’t that pushed whether the Seanad is reformed,” he says adding that he strongly favoured abolition. But it doesn’t look like he’s going to get it.
Turnout so far looks set to eclipse that of the Children’s referendum last November and is running at about 38 per cent at the moment.
The nationwide picture with 13 results in.
Green is Yes, red is No. Obviously.
Sligo North-Leitrim:
Yes: 50.76 per cent
Now 49.24 per cent
‘No’ campaigner Noel Whelan tells RTÉ that he “knew we were making ground over the last few days”. Slams government for “simplistic crude and inaccurate messaging about politics itself.”
Leo Varadkar is having none of it, says the proposal would have been passed if “turnout had been over 50 per cent.”
(Pic: Niall Carson/PA Wire)
Senator David Norris is very happy, he tells Miriam O’Callaghan that the Irish people have voted for democracy:
Enda has clearly put reform on the agenda, the Irish people have said that they want reform. It wasn’t on the ballot paper but it’s there now, you can’t remove.
He loves twitter as well appearantly. Thinks it’s amazing how he has managed to reach so many people online.
Senator David Norris is taking some slack online for saying that Seanad should remain “elitist”. He tells Miriam that he doesn’t want to Seanad to become a second Dáil, feels it should still be a forum for prominent people such as Professor John Crown.
Good afternoon. Sinéad O’Carroll here, taking over for the afternoon. The consensus seems to be that the referendum will be defeated but we’ll keep you updated as the results come in.
Leo Varadkar has been asked if the Taoiseach should consider his position.
“Not at all. This is a referendum on the Seanad,” he laughs. But he notes that the government need to start getting some referendums through if Ireland wants political reform.
And a result from Dublin North-West is in and we have another No from the capital.
NO 54.7 per cent
YES 45.31 per cent
So not tight there.
Another result from Dublin South - the last of the Dublin county constituencies. Out of a total of 46,855, there were 356 invalid ballot papers.
And it’s a No.
An update from the Government Chief Whip Paul Kehoe in Wexford, where it is still too close to call.
He’s in the count centre where the returning officer has redistributed all counted papers to be rechecked again.
He has just tweeted this picture with the caption, “That’s how close it is #seanref”.
Hugh O’Connell has been chatting to David Norris with a few other reporters down at Dublin Castle. He’s still delighted, argues about the power of Twitter and praises the President.
“We were twittering together,” he says.
There has been no official word yet – nor has the government conceded defeat – but people are welcoming the Seanad Referendum ‘Result’.
The Union of Students of Ireland has just issued a statement saying a No vote it is a “extremely positive result for Irish democracy”. President Joe O’Connor, however, said that neither option given to the electorate offered political reform.
Let’s recap on the 26 results we have so far, if you want to find out where you’re constituency is at:
Clare: Yes 51.33 per cent
Cork North-Central: Yes 51.84 per cent
Cork South-Central: No 51.27 per cent
Donegal North-East: No 51.69 per cent
Donegal South-West: No 50.42 per cent
Dublin Mid-West: No 54.7 per cent
Dublin North: No 54.67 per cent
Dublin North-West: No 54.7 per cent
Dublin South-West: No 52.32 per cent
Dublin West: No 57.58 per cent
Dun Laoghaire: No 57.1 per cent
Galway East: Yes 51.37 per cent
Kerry North- West Limerick: Yes 53.84 per cent
Kildare North: No 54.61 per cent
Kildare South: No 55.51 per cent
Limerick City: Yes 52.72 per cent
Longford-Westmeath: Yes 51.02 per cent
Mayo: Yes 57.46 per cent
Meath East: No 52.58 per cent
Meath West: No 53.61 per cent
Roscommon-South Leitrim: Yes 51.67 per cent
Sligo-North Leitrim: Yes 50.76 per cent
Tipperary North: Yes 50.38 per cent
Tipperary South: No 53.46 per cent
Louth has also voted not to abolish the Seanad. The result is a solid 52.3 per cent for the No side.
A theory that is being put out there today is how complacent the ‘Yes’ side became in front of an apathetic electorate.
Twitter user James Doorley blames the polls.
12 of the 12 Dublin constituencies are in. And it’s a significant victory for those who wanted to retain the Seanad (or more correctly, probably, for those who did not want to abolish it).
NO: 55.6 per cent
Today FM’s Aingeala Flannery points something out…
At Dublin Castle, Senator Prof. John Crown says that the momentum swung to the ‘No’ side when people “saw through” the €20 million savings figure that Fine Gael were touting.
Hugh O’Connell at the Central Count Centre here, Michael McDowell has been speaking to the media at Dublin Castle and he’s had some strong words for Enda Kenny: “The real question is that when he brought it to the people why did it cease to be a personal leadership initiative? Why didn’t he lead when the Yes side required him to lead? That’s a matter for him to consider.”
The former Tánaiaste said now was a chance for reform: “He [Taoiseach] now has an opportunity to deliver on the basis that he has heard the people – through the ballot box – give an overwhelming rejection to the politics of cynicism and spin and this is a mandate now for him to reform Seanad Eireann, to make it what the people of Ireland thought they were putting in place when the enacted the Constitution back in 1937.”
More results are in … we currently have a ‘no’ vote in 22 constituencies and ‘Yes’ in 14 making the national picture look like this:
YES 48.4 per cent
NO 51.6 per cent
BREAKING
News just in from Dublin Castle. We’re expecting a declaration in the next half hour or so.
Some Yes votes have just come in with both Kerry South and Cavan Monaghan opting to abolish the Seanad. It looks like they’ll be disappointed though.
Kerry South: Yes 54.5 per cent
Cavan Monaghan: Yes 54.9 per cent
Micheál Martin tells RTÉ that the opinion polls “threw them” during the campaign, despite hearing from people that they were heading towards voting No.
Turnout figures at the moment look like they will sit at the 39.1 per cent mark. Higher than expected.
Did you vote? If not, why not? Let us know in the comments.
Cork South West is very tight. But it very, very narrowly goes to the Yes side.
Yes 50.9 per cent
This is all very exciting when it’s close, isn’t it?
Right now, we’re waiting on Carlow-Kilkenny, Wicklow, Wexford and Laois-Offaly.
We’ve heard Wexford is too close to call but Laois-Offaly will be a significant ‘No’.
Just realised we didn’t bring you the Dublin South East percentages. Voters were overwhelming against abolishing the second house.
No: 61.3 per cent
If you’re wondering where the Taoiseach is, he’s giving a talk at the Global Economic Forum – the conference of influential Irish people asked to put on the green jersey to help us out of our economic troubles.
We have a result from Wicklow and it is another significant No.
No: 57.82 per cent
And the result from Carlow-Kilkenny is in and it is another narrow No vote.
YES: 49.47 per cent
NO: 50.53 per cent
Although Mayo went with their Taoiseach, many Ministers lost the vote in their constituencies. The latest being Phil Hogan in Carlow-Kilkenny.
Lucinda Creighton is a happy woman today.
The declaration has come in. The referendum to abolish the Seanad has been defeated. Here are the important figures
Total poll: 1,240,729
Invalid: 14,355
Yes: 591,937
No: 634,437
Difference: 42,500
Some maths from @gavreilly:
There was a total of 14,355 spoiled or invalid votes today. Earlier Senator Averil Power and Aodhán Ó Ríordáin were critical of people who encouraged voters to write ‘Reform’ at the end of their ballot papers.
It went down badly on the doorstep.
Here’s what the Taoiseach had to say on the defeat.
The leader of the Seanad Maurice Cummins has said that Seanad reform will be on the agenda after the Budget later this month.
Hugh O’Connell at the count centre in Dublin Castle. Here’s the moment the Seanad referendum result was confirmed.
The last results are in.
Wexford was as close as they said with a NO vote of 50.1 per cent
Finally, Laois-Offaly was 53.89 per cent YES.
In other-but-related news, Senator Rónán Mullen has confirmed his intention to fight for a seat in Europe, announcing that he will be a candidate in the Midlands-North-West constituency next year.
A close call: In Wexford, where the winning margin for the No side was just 69 votes, there was 579 invalid votes.
The Taoiseach has said he is disappointed with the result in the Seanad referendum but added that he fully accepts and respects the outcome.
He says he will reflect on the best way the house can be used in the best way.
How many times has Kenny said ‘reflect’ during this interview? Answers in the comments section.
Enda Kenny also says he welcomes the result in the Court of Appeal referendum, which looks like it will be a resounding Yes.
The current position nationally is a 65.65 per cent Yes vote versus a 34.35 per cent No vote.
Defending his lack of campaigning on the Seanad Referendum, Kenny described it as a people’s issue and not a government party issue.
“Sometimes in politics, you get a wallop in the electoral process,” continues Kenny when asked if the defeat is a black mark on his leadership.
But he believes there is a virtue in following through with his promise to ask this question of the people.
“I think it is a bit early to give any detail on how one might reflect in an effective way in this matter,” he added when asked about any possible reforms of the Seanad.
“The process of change in politics is something we are going to continue with.”
He repeats the line about reflecting and assessing how best to use the senate.
Counting in the Court of Appeal continues, even though the Taoiseach has already called the result.
Just five official results in, all floating around the 65/35 mark in favour of setting up a new court. Still not sure what that will mean? Here’s our explainer.
Senators celebrate in Dublin Castle as the result is announced.
WATCH: The Taoiseach’s reaction to the Seanad referendum defeat.
We’re going to give the last word to the Taoiseach and wrap up today’s liveblog.
Counting continues in the Court of Appeal Referendum but there’ll be no surprises there. Here’s the state of play as of 6pm. Check TheJournal.ie later for the final, official result.
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Regardless of the outcome I applaud those that got out and voted.
Well done and respect.
If a ‘no’ vote is passed, they will run it again citing that people were confused by the ballot papers…they are more or less hinting towards that already. If a ‘yes’ vote is passed, well of course that’s grand for them, Europe will be happy
I think more people read this article than those who voted yesterday !!
spot on angela
seem to be a lot of talk about confusion..laying the ground for a rerun?
No they won’t Angela. Perhaps most TDs privately want this political cash cow to continue. Wouldn’t you in their position.
On the up side, I suppose if they are already laying the groundwork for a second outing that means they know it’s going to be a NO vote…great!
I’m in Laois- didn’t see confusion. Perhaps they’re preparing Charlie for their “mistake” in voting no. A “no” would be good – hopefully “thinking” and “outside the box” is taking off.
Should be Saturday voting. This needs to be fixed.
Angela, you are undoubtedly right. But they seriously need to look at ballot papers for referenda, which have caused confusion before now. The basic message – that the government always wants a ‘Yes’ answer – does not seem to get through, with all the legalese used. I heard of one woman who voted No, to say she wanted No Seanad! Also, if they “need” to rerun, they will need to give people something they want to vote Yes for, not a meaningless barrage of save 20m (a pittance, in the overall scheme), and fewer politicians (that would be good, if the ones left were also good), etc. It is unlikely to be rerun by this government, if they lose, so it depends on who wins the next Gen Election.
It’s going to be a no vote to the Seanad abolition. One thing is for certain – there will be no reform – no government is going to touch this issue again even with a barge pole.
Someone should sit down with Charlie and bring him through it slowly
There has been saturday voting, that makes no major difference to overall situation. It’s that people do not feel as involved in the outcome of Referenda and don’t make the effort. Most referenda have low turnouts.
Angela if we carry a NO vote and they try re run it ….. we will see the seanad and the presidental office step in … Enda wont have the balls to try it
There will be no re run. There has been complaints about there being too many politicians which cost too much. It is interesting to see that the people have endorsed that system.
No would be one in the jap’s eye for that bell-end Kenny.
Exactly what I was thinking Angela.
Angela, you’re the one yesterday, saying ‘why bother’ – ‘puppet Germany government’ – ‘you’re vote doesn’t count’ – ‘pointless’.
The ballot papers were confusing, multiple people were asked ‘which was which’, the ballot paper should have been simpler:
Keep Seanad – Tick here
No Seanad – – Tick here
If it did have to be done again, I hope that the organizers at least have the decency to add a few options:
Keep Seanad
Keep Seanad and reform
Keep Dail
Keep Dial and reform
Online voting with PPS No.
People may not have endorsed the system about too many politicians costing too much – they are also saying they want a decent alternative, which they have not been offered (yet). Plus, the Dublin result does not determine the overall result, because Dublin often votes different to the rest of the country. It depends on how close it is outside Dublin.
Angela u are like a broken record. I get the feeling it will be a No vote and it will be accepted but I guess you will just delete your twitter account and rejoin under a new name so you can start spouting sh1t again
Well if they do let’s hope that all who voted stick to their guns this time and not let government bully them Into a yes vote !! I’m hoping everyone has learned rom the Lisbon treaty referendum.
I was just gonna say the same Angela.
I voted yesterday,instead of whinging on the Journal,but it does require a degree of intelligence and effort to try to come to a decision,not an easy option for everyone but one where the citizens have the power,not the vested interests.
If it’s a no vote, and I really hope it is, there is no chance Enda will run it again. Absolutely none. The result will stand.
If the yes vote wins another piece of democracy in Ireland will crumble away. Reform is the solution
I am more concerned about about the vast percentage that did not vote. In this referendum it looks like over sixty percent are not bothered to vote. Referendums should have a minimum percentage turnout to be valid. This is a major problem for the State leaders who are unlikley to solve the problem given that they would not take part in a public debate.
Angela, I’ve saved this article and yesterday’s in my favourites, this referendum will not be re-run, the cost of doing so a second time will almost outstrip the savings to be made from abolition of the Seanad, enough of the paranoid ramblings, this is not the same as an EU referendum that impacts millions of people for good or bad
Very harsh Niall, I don’t have twitter.
@My dear friend Gaius. I hope I am wrong, and I will be delighted if my paranoia is proven to be unjustified.
One thing is for sure, if it’s a no vote Gilmore is going to be in serious trouble after the recent Lab vote meltdown. Humble pie for Enda. All this with a budget a stone’s throw away?
The government won’t re-run a referendum, except under extreme duress, like, say, being afraid of the EU.
Whatever about confusing ballots, I don’t think you can really legislate for the kind of idiot who, as you say “voted No, to say she wanted No Seanad”.
Here here!
Whats the Seanad referendum got to do with Europe Angela..??
@Michael This has nothing to do with Europe.
i would not be surprised if this has a lot to do with Europe,if a YES vote is passed then the government can put into law anything they want without the people having a say .We need reform so there is no party whip and senators can vote how they feel and the people feel not the party line as it is now
People that can’t tell the difference between YES or NO shouldn’t have a vote.
It’s not about endorsing more politicians synops, for me it was about having a government who thought an educated electorate like ours would not be able to understand that they were giving us no choice at all in this referendum. The governments referendum question,”Should the Seanad be abolished?” or not which means reform the Seanad( real meaning) keep it the same way as it is which is not what people want. They obviously want a representative body that will police this or any government with a certain amount of power at least and maybe voted in through the popular vote possibly. Bottom line government gave us no proper question in this referendum and they got the sensed they deserved trying to be too smart
Angela no they won’t . This govt will never hold a referendum again, they keep losing.
I am glad I made the effort to get out and vote. At least now I can comment on the pros and cons.
A poem by TheJournals resident poet ‘Lauren Masterson’
‘Yes or No’
Yes or no I’m waiting to see
I sit here and hope a no it will be
There is debate and confusion there is yes and no
Everyone has an opinion and is letting it show
Will a repeat vote be asked if Ireland says no
Some people think not but Angela thinks so
It’s hard to tell what our government will do
Will this be Lisbon treaty number two
No one knows what will happen, what way it will go
My friend Angela is hoping for a big fat no
All we can do for now is sit and wait
Get and journal.ie and have friendly debate
Another poem by TheJouranls resident poet ‘Lauren Materson’ dedicated to her muse, ‘LittleJim’
‘Oh little Jim, Oh little Jim’
Oh little Jim little Jim who went out to the club
He had a few drinks and a little bit if grub
On the dance floor he bumped into his mate called big Phil
Who pulled Jim aside and gave him a pill
Take this he said their bleedin great
So little Jim knocked it back and thanked his mate
Later that night Jim went home and felt happy
But he started to feel lonely and a little bit crappy
The door bell rang and made little Jim jumpy
He answered it and there was his friend lumpy
Lumpy was a giant dragon and was green and blue
He knocked on Jim’s door so he could use his loo
They ended up drinking and doing some shots
And rang around looking for some motts
But they weren’t successful so lumpy suggested they go for a fly
So little Jim climbed on lumpy back and they soared Into the sky
They flew through the clouds and Jim felt so good
But all of a sudden he was in a field and was covered in mud
He looked around looking for lumpy and realised he was indeed in the nip
Thinking about the pill it dawned on him it was all a big trip
‘Little Jim, Little Jim’ is my favourite of Lauren’s collection, it reminds me of a weekend I spent in Leitrim many moons ago.
Angela did you vote in the end? Just curious
I voted No Niall. It would appear that every single vote mattered a great deal. So I was wrong in one sense, but my rants and annoying self righteousness possibly prompted a handful to vote No just to spite me ;)
Thanks Angela. All though the red thumbs have hurt my feelings.
Those red thumbs are for me Lauren love, not you. Some people don’t like me here because I am not a sheep (mba mbaaa sheep talk) So do not take the red thumbs as any reflection to your poems :)
Some people just don’t appreciate a good poem written with raw emotion from the heart .if anything I hope it took their minds off the heaviness of the voting . These poems were requested by fellow readers. Jim asked me to do one on a random dragon. I am still taking requests. I feel inspired now to write one on red thumbing and the effects it may have on the receivers .
howya lauren
how about a limerick in honour of Enda
There was a taoiseach from mayo
who never thought we would say no
he refused to debate
but still thought he was great
?????
all help gratefully accepted to finish it
Now it’s time for that Taoiseach to go…
Angela,
You should be listening to Pink Floyd instead of Zeppelin.
Lauren,
Inspirational work, but please don’t be offended if I say Seamus Heaneys place in the Pantheon is safe…
I hope both of you are enjoying this wonderful sunny day.
Angela and Lauren have made my day lol Lauren you may not get a noble prize for poetry but you poems are very welcome here, bring them on!!
Well done lads !! Paul I feel offended . How can I compete with a dead man.
Ummm…
Try better poetry?
Thanks cacilia … Ill definitely have more to come. I won’t let these red thumbers chad away my dreams of being the next top poet !! Anyway… Up the no voters !!!
Did your car break down?
Paul Roche the cheek off you
And you hurt my feelings too
My poetry is pure and from the heart
Stop being a Nasty little tart
You have deeply upset me with your comments mr paul
If you have nothing nice to say don’t say anything at all
Thank you for that ditty Lauren,
Reading it was, for sure, not borin’,
It was not my intent to cause offence,
Well, only to Enda, who’s a little dense.
To you, I say sorry for dissing your art,
Which I now see truly, comes from the heart.
And said farewell like Capt Adebayo!
Great poem
Angela, even if i dont agree with your politics
He sure didn’t expect that KO
and so david norris wants the seanad to remain elitist now does he ?????????
why and for what reason in any reality is that chain of thought ok.
get real or get a life norris your starting to sound like spoilt brat
It really felt like the Government didn’t want people turning out to vote , long established polling stations moved and little debate from enda kenny showed how little he thought of the referendum.
How was there any confusion about which ballot paper was which? Just read the feckin things before you mark them.
There was no confusion on which ballot paper was which. The confusion was Yes for what and No for what!
Read the paragraph beside “9.15″ in the article.
Rocky, unless I am mistaken the words”Court of Appeal” were nowhere to been seen on the ballot paper, I presumed that’s what we were voting on……..
I thought it was just Bray … Why did the polling stations move??
it was
@ Green monkey
Green ballot paper, box at top, second line, in brackets, clear enough?
Green Monkey, the words “Court of Appeal” were on the ballot paper, were perfectly visible and it was a yes or no question. Anyone who got “confused” is obviously an idiot.
Highest NO vote in poorer areas where there are the least Seanad votes exists …speaks volumes
These are the areas SF concentrated there Yes campaign in !!
There own supporters didn’t vote with them .
Tweets from there reps blaming FG already . Laughable
Poor Richard is gonna carry the can for this eventhough (Bel) Enda refused to debate.
Kenny not engaging in debate didn’t show how little he thought of the referendum, the whole idea of scrapping the Seanad was his idea to start with. He debate on this for the same reason he doesn’t engage on any public debate, that is because he is incapable of doing so.
Green money… Those words were clearly on the paper !!
@Green Monkey, what they said ^^^
Or perhaps they think if Endas for it then I’m against it. Let’s face it everything else he has done screwed them over. Who can blame them.
Perhaps its a case of , if Endas for it then I’m against it. Everything else hes done has only hurt them.
Paddy Power tweeted that they are paying out on the No vote.
” It was as big as 5/1 yesterday but we think it’s now done & dusted. We’re paying out on a ‘No’ result in the Seanad Referendum”
Don’t think so Norman. All the focus will go to Enda not debating.
Balbriggan they moved to other side of the town.
So much for theat Ipsos MRBI poll during the week. Were our pollsters trying to people and are our pollsters to be believed???
*trying to influence people
It could be down to turnout Cowenwatch
Mattie McGrath has just stated what I said above. The Ipsos poll said 62% in favor of abolishment. The results looks very different though.
Enda is a Mass debater.
Jesus Gordon learn your their from your there (and don’t blame it on predictive text).
In fairness, all you had to do was read them to find out which was which. Id assume if you went to the bother of going to your polling station you could take a second to read and see which ballot paper was which.
You don’t even need to do that. Yes to change the constitution, No to leave it alone. Same as last time, and the 25 times before that.
Hmmmm Im not sure why voters were confused. You either approve of the abolition of the Seanad or you don’t. Tick yes if you do, no if you don’t. Its pretty clear. A monkey could do it.
Couldn’t have been made any more simple.
A lot of people will use that excuse to cover for their lazyness.
There were no issues at all.
It looks like the questions on the ballot papers could be understood with a little effort.
I went to vote yesterday morning before going to work only to find they had moved the polling station! So I came home and had to haul my 14 month old baby and walk (as husband had car) to vote. Glad I did though.
Fair play for putting in the effort! Did they tell you about the new polling station of your polling card?
No, had the old polling station on the polling card. Apparently it was on the radio but having spoken to a lot of my fellow towns people mostly wasn’t heard. :)
Our polling station was moved, not far, but we received a letter to tell us that the address on cards was wrong and where new polling station was.
The ballot papers weren’t confusing if you read them!
A big if for some people!
There is nothing confusing about the two votes. I went online and simply read the Journals and other online newspaper articles and it was clear. There was a poor vote because people are ticked off about bond holders not being burnt and the governments not putting up a fight for its people. The last thing we need is another commission gobbling up tax payers money. I voted because it matters but the general public don’t trust the governments decisions, and if in doubt do nothing comes to mind for many.
Couldn’t agree more Gary.
Are they starting this spin again.that people did not understand the ballot paper. so as to have a re run because we did not vote the way they wanted us to. remember the Lisbon referendum. Glad i voted No and had no problem with the ballot papers.
FG saying people were confussed ….. admission of defeat already ? Expect it to be done a second time already
There was no confusion on the ballot papers if you read them, clear as day to me anyways. I think this is FG acknowledging defeat but blaming the wording rather than their dismal efforts in the campaign. Herr Kenny is responsible for this defeat it it turns out to be so, his inability to debate as leader of the country is reprehensible.
The only downside to this result is those weasels in FF will proclaim it as a victory for them.
Impact on Enda will be the talking point if No comes in.
A Victory For No Vote = A Strong Claim For Real Reform in the Seanad and the Dail.
A Victory For Yes Vote = Losing Your Right To Having A Referendum Again – Read the “Referral of Bills to the People” at http://referendum2013.ie/the-seanad-other-changes/
Could be a Yes vote in Mayo … if it was a vote to bring in canibalism those mulla muppets would follow that Enda plank … either that or there just adicted to being on the losing side for everything
Its going to be a long day
The words ‘piss-up’ and ‘brewey’ in a well known sentence spring to mind when thinking of this gombeen administration. The arrogance and contempt for both sides of the argument was breath taking.
That’s true…also the ballot papers were not clear. People were not sure which was which.
I found a way to work out which ballot paper was which.
I read them.
Sure it was printed clear as day on both of them, as in the picture above..
No, you see voters don’t want to read the papers. They want it all spoon-fed to them, judging from the comments around the media this morning.
Bull***t! The ballot papers were perfectly clear. More government spin and lies to make us vote again…enough is enough!!!!!!
I not no wat do.
I not see werds.
No. I see werds.
Not no wat is werds wosz.
Strange to think that in a polling station within 10 minutes, 14 people asked the question back to the ballot takers: “I want to vote NO the the first and YES to the second, which is which?”, yes they live outside Dublin, but far from stupid.
Angela, are you really that perfect, that your opinion always correct, that the government will re-do the vote. Did you print / design the ballot papers and have a insight view of how badly they were done?
It’s looking like a no vote,
is the Irish electorate starting to finally wise up to the b.s?
by voting to keep the other arm of the same b.s?
14 million euros later and they cannot organise 2 pieces of paper with 2 boxes on them?
They insulted the electorate with taking a Yes vote for granted,don’t further insult them by saying they can’t tick boxes.
And shame on those who didn’t vote.
Charlie Flanagan tweeted that people were confused as to yes for what know to what. Granted. But it would have held if his own part leader and our Taoiseach went on rte / tv3 and explained it to the people. After all it was his own pet project to deflect away from budget 14.
They were confused about a lot of things Michael, they were also apparently confused how our system works in general, telling canvassers they wanted to vote no to ”protect democracy” apparently not realizing they were saying they wanted to protect it from the elected house, which makes no sense.
I think the YES camp made a balls of it’s campaign with stupid reasons offered like the petty savings when there were plenty of good reasons to abolish it, and they did a very poor job educating the non-politically savvy public about how the Senate actually works in practice as opposed to how it works in theory.
You’ll see now, as I said all along, you probably won’t get reform, and even if you do any reform will make the senate either a source of deadlock or a rubber stamp. It has to be one of those 3.
No good will come of this vote.
If It`s a No, will the members of the Seanad who campaigned for a Yes resign? Surely if only on moral grounds they have too.
John I voted no but even I know Irish politicians no matter what party they belong to have one thing in common they have no morals or concept of what a resigning matter would be.
So why did you vote to keep 60 of them on the gravy train
Irish politicians don’t have morals!
Massive protest vote against Kenny Noonan Gilmore et al.
“Dublin might be a NO” ” everywhere else a YES” where the absolute fk are you making this crap up ? Only reports in so far putting a YES ahead are in wicklow and Cork … Laois-Offaly , Donegal, Meath East are NO’s of course far to early to take it either way , but go and stick your government bias BS reporting up your ass
“TO CLOSE TO CALL” What are you smoking even the Man from Del Monte said fking NO
Confusion… sounds like… if they dont vote yes, we can ask them again!
‘confusing ballot papers’?! 2 referendums, 2 pieces of paper. Yes or no in each case. I’d worry about anyone who walked in and didn’t know what box to tick to reflect their choice – has to be a tiny percentage of the people that voted doesn’t it?!….. or maybe I just have too much faith in people’s ability to read!!
Judging from the media hype around the ‘confusion’ this morning, yes, you might be placing too much trust in people!
The no votes seem to winning the day thus far, I am not surprised really as its primarily a protest vote against a government that is unpopular.
I think there’s mixed reasons for the No vote. I want to see reform along the lines that Prof John Crown has suggested & if there’s a sliver of hope that it may happen, it was worth voting No (even if it meant voting the same way as FF). Voting in protest at the government is a waste – the General & local elections are the appropriate protest grounds for that.
The people have endorsed the Seanad. There will be no reform. No government is going to ever touch this again.
I too would dearly love reform Sara, and if only that option had been put before us, sadly it wasn’t. Therefore the status quo remains, and a house of little value continues in it’s existence.
You’re right. When Micheal Martin is Taoiseach in 2 1/2 years time, just 5 short years after being part of a government that f#*×ed this country, do you think he’ll offer a sniff of the wonderful reform he’s been spouting about?
The country has voted for the status quo
All is forgiven Fianna Fail. Come back.
James not a protest vote I weighed up the pros and cons.I came to the conclusion that I don’t want to see the consititution butchered.
I respect your opinion Norman, personally I feel however, that we are ill served by a mediocrity that passes for a political system, one that endlessly seeks to place it’s own existence and bullish behaviour ahead of the needs and rights of the people. They promise with words the deeds they never enact, this regrettably is the plight we are bound under.
James had Kenny started with serious reform of the Dail I would have voted yes, but every action before and after the election has been a lesson in lies and deceit by the same Kenny.I will not place give my trust in a liar, its that simple.
I didn’t vote yes on account of enda kenny, or his party. I am in sync with you Norman on the man’s ability, which is mediocre at the best of times. I honestly feel it matters not a hoot to him whether or not it passes, he will say I offered an opportunity at reform and the people rejected it. I voted yes to address a failing in our system, I can’t vote on it again as I am not one of those entitled to vote for the Seanad ordinarily.
What a waste of a vote …..
An opportunity to change the system and it is turned down.
There should be a qualification process to be allowed vote.
What’s the criteria? To agree with your point of veiw only?
Looking like I’m going to have to listen to Ronan Mullen for few more years. What a shame!
Do those polling companies not conduct exit polls too?
I would have expected that!
They not allowed to on the grounds of a polling station….
Couldn’t they do it just outside?
A very bad day for Sinn Fein who should have run a No campaign highlighting Enda Kennys refusal to offer the people the option of reform on the ballot paper.
A campaign run along these lines would have introduced their policies to many people for the 1st time.
They need to look at their policy advisors and question how they thought rolling in with Fine Gael would in any way highlight them as a possible future alternative for government.
Conversely, a great day for FF, who manage to look respectable and in touch with the public. Who’d have thought that?
On the assumption that each polling station carried enough papers to cover entire electorate, think how much money was wasted by the 65% or there abouts who couldn’t be bothered. How many of this 65% are supported by the state each day.
Also means less than 20% of the people will make this call. Shameful really.
Disgraceful comments by Leo…“Most people aren’t that pushed whether the Seanad is reformed,” he says.
This is insulting to anyone that went out and voted. People have a myriad of reasons why they voted no…he has no right to dismiss a No vote as voter apathy. I voted because I want reform….and how can you reform something if it ceases to exist?
Leo is a sore loser?
Leo is an idiot. Not as big an idiot as Kenny, but an idiot nonetheless.
I’ve made it into a Journal screenshot! Fame is mine!
Looks like it’s going to be a great day for Fianna Fáil
A person I know received 2 genuine voting cards. One with her maiden name and another with her married name. It wasn’t only a mistake in posting, but the two names were on the list in the polling stations ! (Only 1 was used btw) :P
Standard fare for an Irish poll. I’m still getting multiple polling cards years after leaving Ireland. They’re very creative: sometimes I’m John, sometimes Ian… Anything to bulk up the ballot box!
No confusion if the ballot paper was read. It wasn’t phrased as a question though, is that the issue?
“Leo Varadkar is having none of it, says the proposal would have been passed if ‘turnout had been over 50 per cent.’”
And if my Aunt had balls, Leo…
If there’s gonna b a second vote on it they can count me out I won’t b changing my mind
There won’t be.
When no actually means yes..
We want real reform not tokenism…
My faith in our democracy is being restored..
@Kevin
And there is no mandate for reform in the vote !
Thats the whole point.
So what has been voted for is the continuation of the gravy train of a overpaid elitist wafflers never-ending tea-party.
Well done to those who voted no – never again moan about the cost or the ineffectiveness of the Seanád. You missed your chance.
Enda stirkes again. Treats the public with contempt. Gets a kicking. The headline still says too close to call. Based on RTE reports it’s going to be a No. And a No by between 3 and 5 per cent.
Dublin looks like carrying a NO vote over the line. Politicians pay & pension reinstatement to previous levels will not be too many years behind.
Missed opportunity with an anti government vote taking precedent over getting rid of politicians.
So by your logic people voted no just to stick it to the government, pretty arrogant comment to make.
I voted no based on the information out forward by both sides.
The yes side was a populist piece of nonsense save €20 million (well maybe) and the person proposing the abolition of the Seanad not even willing to debate the issue.
What swung it for you to vote no Norman?
Would this be the same government who’s Taoiseach refused – on more than one occasion – the opportunity to debate and put forward his views as to why this amendment should be carried? Would it also happen to be the same government who’s Tanaiste came out and pretty much insulted all of his fellow citizen’s intelligence by arrogantly stating that a ‘Yes’ decision was a “very straightforward” choice for people to make?
‘Cos if that’s the same government you’re talking about then an ‘anti government vote’ appears to be a fairly reasonable conclusion to this farce.
My views, the butchery of the consititution the unwillingness of Enda to debate.Lastly just that uncomfortable feeling that there was more to abolition than met the eye.
Agree with you on this , think its nothing but a protest vote , most people I know complain about politicians but here so many vote to keep 60 of the most useless . A chance to have a few redundancies in Kildare Street I really think it would have been good for the political class.
So you ‘no’ votes had a lot to do with the leader of the Government not engaging in a TV debate upon request by the leader of a small political party !!
I despair.
a good kick Inda arse – now do what you’re told by the sovereign people!!!
My greatest sense of relief is for the Constitution of Ireland; it has not been dismembered. Let’s never allow Enda Kenny to make an executive decision again.
The first thing to be done now is to forever end the utter corruption of ‘repeat referendums’. The people themselves must get ahead of the government’s curve, and immediately demand that democratic mandates are respected and not undermined by extremists who ‘decide’ that it is their right to force and brow beat the electorate about how they ‘should’ have voted. I suggest anyone and everyone write to/ email their TDs to absolutely demand that no ‘re-run’ referendum occurs. Without wanting to sound alarmist, this behaviour in the past has seriously undermined voter confidence in the democratic process, not to mention perversing the course of democracy.
We must act now, individually and as citizens, to remind our elected officials that “confusion” excuses or otherwise will no longer be tolerated.
The people have spoken, Mr. Kenny. We’ve taken the unemployment, the utterly bankrupting nationalisation of debt while bond holders are protected. We’ve taken the introduction of water charges, the insulting and infra structurally-deficient demand for such high tv licences. We’ve listened as you explained the need for continued austerity and lack of serious investment. The cuts in education, public sector pay … All of which are for the ‘Common Good’.
The people have spoken. They chose to retain the Seanad, for the COMMON GOOD.
Now back off.
Comment of the month!
I happily voted no yesterday & am very happy that it looks like I’m not in the minority on this issue. We did not get a chance to vote for actual reform and the fact that our so called leader let others debate when he hid away whilst his govt campaigned on an agenda of lies says so much about his brand of dirty politics. Congrats to DDI for all their work on enlightening people on this issue. Leo now arguing that they lost because of a low turnout – deluded sanctimonious arrogant idiot.
Looks like Mr Norris can relax and keep drawing his Trinity pension that he didn’t work for, take as much time away from the Seanad as he likes so that he can double / triple job and fill in for radio / tv journalists / presenters who go on holidays. Did I mention that he gets a senators wage on top of all that? He epitomises the very reason it should be abolished. Disgusting.
Yawn. You lost. Live with it. Democracy wins in a shocker.
Is that his daughter in the pic?
Democracy means all sides can express a view.
Thats all thats happening..
‘Democracy wins’, whatever you can say about this u cant say that, since the senates not a democratic body
There will be no rerun of this vote. Our ‘government’ have satisfied the wishes of their European masters by putting the proposal of abolishing the Seanad to the people. If we had said ‘Yes’ a little work would have to be done. By saying ‘No’, it means they have to do absolutley nothing, there will be no reform, as always this government will take the course of minimum effort. They produce a piece of legislation from the ‘down with this sort of thing’ school of politics, there was, as always,no interaction with the people, no effort to move the country forward, no open discussion, and after the vote? A quick nod toward ‘the people have spoken’, a shrug and a smirk, and a return to business as usual.
Do you seriously think that any of the people calling for a no vote will/would reform it in any meaningful way?
The country has voted for the status quo.
On the face of it,yes we have voted for more of the same. However if asked I beleive that the people, in my opinion, want what they were promised at the last election; reformed, open and accountable government. Will the Seanad be reformed as a result of this vote? Unfortunatley no, it will be more of the same, but with, what the government will claim, or ‘spin’ into mandate to justify it
Did anyone honestly think there would be a chance of reform? Back to business as usual…jobs for the boys.
The message has gone out that the usual shower CANNOT be trusted and the people want accountability.
Direct Democracy Ireland were pushing for this with a NO vote – looks like the population agreed!
The excuses for the next few days will come of course from FG and Labour – meanwhile Sinn Fein will do more backtracking and switch sides again!
OK a lot of people say that if voters just read the ballot papers there was no need for confusion. I think that makes sense especially if you’re an active voter and have self informed. However, in designing these papers you need to cater for those who have poor information or understanding about these constitutional articles. Think of all the students who know they should read all their exam questions but don’t!
Those people haven’t made the investment in time and effort to educate themselves. It’s their fault.
Sometimes they were let down by our education system, and find themselves unable to read formal documents.
@shelia
“Let down by the education system”
You mean “didnt bother their hole even going to primary school”
Don’t always blame ‘the system’ take some personal responsibility
Confusion? It seemed pretty straightforward to me
You deserve what you vote for 60 free loaders – the sheep have spoken -
Sucks to be a loser, huh?
From what I gather many people do not fully understand the implications of a yes vote and how that affects our rights as citizens at least there is a possibility of reform and reform that will work for the population.
Wait a minute, so it’s sheep for following the government and it’s sheep for opposing the government.
Man, it’s hard to not be a sheep I guess. I wish I was as cool as you are Tax Slave.
For once, people did the right thing and overcome the urge to “stick it to the politicians” and did the right thing.
Thats what I thought. The Dail and the Seanad need reform but when a Government essentially asks you to give them more power I’m suspicious.
Damn proud to be a Dubliner today
Well if Enda wants us to vote yes, then we have to think – No. Because we all know that the no good b*****d is not out for our good, only doing what he is told in Europe. He was too thick to even take part in the debate.
Did anyone notice they removed that horrible blue flag from the dail ,just in case the peasants might think this has anything to do with the mob in brussels .This was an order from brussels to these politicians who would sell their mothers to brussels and their country .Well done to those who voted against the government machine who are lap dogging to europe
My partner was denied her right to vote last night. They would not give her in writing that she had showed to vote and that constitutional right was denied. The referendum was about our constitution. Unreal
Why Kieran ? On what grounds did they refuse her ?
Apparently she was removed from the register. So in essence she does not exist although she pays her taxes. The response was to check on Monday !!!!!! Voting over by then.
Had she voted from the same address in previous elections/ referenda?
Did she receive a voting card and have all her details up to date ? Bring ID ? Doesn’t sound very fair at all Keiran. I’d look into that !!
Had she received a voting card ?
Had she checked the register ?
Yes and had her id with her
No Lauren. No voting card arrived. Apparently she was taken off the register because someone answered the front door one day and gave their details. So instead of checking with her she was taken off the register. However even if she is or us not on the register she should have been immediately put back on when it was shown that she did indeed exist and has voted in past. She is also squeaky clean around her taxes etc. anyway the staff were pleasant enough but would not give her vote nor acknowledge that she was denied the right. Close run but at least the voting dud nit rest on her single vote but it could well have
Great day for Direct Democracy ireland who along with FF where pushing for a NO vote.
The others have clearly been rejected – including Sinn Fein and the Socialists (whatever name or group they are trying to mask themselves under from month to month!).
The leader and active members of the campaign shouldn’t even be allowed in the count centres! (Bruton in the picture there)
One of the principles of democracy is that it is transaparrent. There is no valid reason why those with an interest can’t attend the count centres.
It looks like a possible no , but a possible yes for democracy..
Enda you’ve not pulled the wool over us Irish ..turn the result in your favour. you’re beaten by Irish people who see you for what you really are.. a dictator who doesn’t give two shits your fellow Irish man woman and child . Michael has had the last laugh… you’re the fool Enda for not going on for live debate…. who’s making a fool of himself Now… It’s time for you Enda to go back to Mayo and crawl under that rock formation you squirmed out from underneath. Its time now to put leadership under the spot light… Lets Abolish Enda from Daíl.
Am Actually delighted for once enda didn’t get what he wanted….. A no was def the right decision…
NO was only correct if we get reform of the Senate which is never going to happen.
First time to comment on the Journal, although I read it every day, so relieved it was a no vote because of the lack of transparency as to the ramifications of the abolition of the Seanad
Why does it point out Cork-South Central as a FF constituency but not Donegal as a SF one?
Because until recently Donegal was a FF stronghold.
Japers, I thought I would never get to the end of the comments treat to add my cupla focal. Anyone would think that a Referendum had just taken place LOL. Seriously though; well done to all who voted NO. You have restored my faith in the discerning ability of the Irish electorate and you have saved our Seanad. Yesterday and today were good days work for the cause of greater Irish Democracy. In voting NO you have forestalled the most cynical attempt, in our nations history, to undermine the Houses of the Oireachtas. What would you have got in return? Promises of some alternative; that’s all: promises and you know how very good the present administration is at keeping electoral promises. In reality the NO vote was a YES vote for Seanad Reform. So, elected representatives ignore that message at your peril. If you head into the long grass and sulk we the people will see you at the next general ballot and we will speak louder that we did in this Referendum. Get on with it folks. The country is watching.
In this day and age there should be online voting …… If billions of euro’s can be transferred daily online , the time has come we should be able to vote online
This is a huge middle finger to these politicians who have betrayed our country,who have tried to feed our people to the wolves in brussels and germany .Make no mistake this was an order from the mob in brussels all across this bogus eu,destroy all second parliaments first ,then destroy all parliaments second ,then send in the technocrats from brussels .Ireland was deliberatly bankrupted ,call in the loans brussels think they own Ireland now .This is the Third rejection by Ireland to these gangsters in brussels ,its time to GIVE IRELAND BACK TO THE IRISH ,OUR COUNTRY IS NOT FOR SALE . Wake up labour ,ff and fg its time to withraw from the EU .That sinn fein advocated the abolishing of any second chamber was a huge mistake
I have to say whenever I have to fill out documents of importance I always seem to panic incase I get it wrong.. I’m not sure why but I’ve always been like that. I’m always terrified I’ll get something wrong. Without fail I always get a tiny bit nervous when going to vote. Yesterday I was in and out. It was easy to read and the instructions were clear and simple to understand. I’m fairly sure my 4 year old would have been able to fill out the paper on his own. To me ‘Confusion’ is just an excuse for those who just didn’t bother to vote and for those who want a re vote, seriously I don’t think they could make it any easier… Unless we attend a class before we vote and the teacher can go through it with us. And maybe go through our ABCs while they are at it.
Lol I felt exactly the same
A lot of the ‘no’ vote would have been from people like me. I think the Seanad is elitist and in need of reform or abolition, but a) I wanted to hurt a government that are hurting me and my family and b) right now there are senators in place who will articulate opposition to government austerity policies.
What a stupid reason to vote !
We get a chance of getting rid of 60 odd politicians who do nothing except cost money and generally delay only something. They have had fifty years to talk about reform but only when faced with abolition did they get off their arses. A cushy club of TDs who lost their seat or trying to gain one. Or somebody with a profile in a university or trade union.
But we look like keeping it out of spite to Enda hahaha to you Enda. But we are the mugs , because we will have to keep paying these rubber stamp merchants for ever and their replacements too.
Although I have grave reservations about the FG/Lab government I do honestly believe that redundancies in Kildare Street would be a good thing , then they might realise that joblessness affects people
Maybe if we had a proper vote calling, for reduced numbers in both houses of
Parliament i.e. reduce the Dail to 100 TDs, the Seanad to 30 seats all voted in by the people, abolish the party whips and finally scrap 80% of the local authorities ( why do we need 50 odd councils), then we would have had a better reform of irish politics, not this oh because we’ll save 20 million joke.
Rte making excuse after fking excuse …. we need a vote to abolish that piece ot crap
The next referendum should be to make it compulsory to vote in elections and referendums. Political parties only interested in where they can corner votes.
A lot more would be gained if voting was compulsory forcing political parties to engage more and follow through on election promises.
What will this mean for Enda Kenny’s leadership now that the Seanad referendum, in which he invested so much of his political capital, has been defeated?
Enda Kenny must resign over this. His credibility with the Irish people is in tatters.
Will all politicians, of all parties, please note …..WE HAD DECIDED LONG AGO TO VOTE NO !
Well done Ireland keeping Bertie’s friends in a well paid job doing nothing
Maybe the government missed a trick at bit. They should have encouraged Eoghan Harris to campaign for a No.
Where is Enda Kenny today?
Is the coward still in hiding?
Paddy Power paying out on a No vote for the Seanad referendum. Just tweeted
Exactly whose opinion was portrayed in the opinion polls. Irish media cannot be trusted it is in the hands of this current government. Putin would be proud.
What ?
There is no connection whatsoever between *any* market research company and any media group.
Well there you have it Enda. Most people don’t trust you to give you more power. They saw it was a knee jerk reaction on your part to losing out to Gilmore in a poll. You kept pushing it because of your ‘I’m always right mindset’. It’s the beginning of the Enda for you.
It is actually quite hillarious that Irish people wants to keep the government body that they have no direct influence on who is actually chosen to be in it. (Sorry not sure if what I wrote makes sense in English). Something unusual. It would make sense if the people of Ireland would choose each member of Senate during general election but in this case?
Can we have a referendum to ban FG from government, there agenda is to close to FF & it’s really a waste having so many politicians just trying to look better than each other rather than taking the country’s best interest serious. Just my opinion
The Dubs stuff Kenny twice in a fortnight !
There is alot of posts on facebook from people stating that due to an administration error they were refused their right to vote yesterday ! Even though they had voting cards and knew the people in the polling station personally. Is this the new way the government can pick and choose who votes or not? Or saving them having to do a re vote when the outcome doesn’t go their way ?
Yes, and I read that the moon landing didn’t happen either. Because who could have taken the photo of Neil Armstrong if he was supposedly the first one out of the lunar capsule? And the flag was blowing in the wind in the picture….but there is no wind on the moon !!!
Yes a government minister spent all day on Wednesday drawing up a list of people that he didn’t want voting. Didn’t you hear? Idiot!
People can’t be refused to vote if they have the right ID.
That sounds very suspicious!
Twice in as many weeks Dublin says NO to Inda. Add to this the disastrous showing in the Presidential elections, Inda is continuing a Fine tradition of making an absolute bollix of it! Another Fine Own Goal!!!
It is a shame that it was such a low turnout!.. In a few Months, I suppose we will have the ones who didn’t vote gripe!.. It is a sickener that we the TaxPayers have to pay for it. We could have saved ourselves some Money. But, it is too late now.
Ehh what was the confusion with ballot papers? If this are the ones that i’ve just seen above than i have to say that as a Polish person even i can understand it! Is this because of declining education levels?
How about a running total of the Yes and No votes. Constituency % is not relevant in this.
A lot of the tallies are showing a win for the No side.
If the No side wins we won’t see any Seanad reform in this Dail term. That means another Seanad term is almost a certainty. Almost guarantees there will be no reform for at least 8 more years. But the people voted so what can you do.
Maybe run it again but this time the taoiseach would debate
had his chance.
not a leader.
Next time run over Enda himself…. He had his 3 minute fame and screwed it up by lying to Irish People
I don’t think the TD’s should be anywhere near the counting! Don’t trust them one bit :P
Angela, you’re the one yesterday, saying ‘why bother’ – ‘puppet Germany government’ – ‘you’re vote doesn’t count’ – ‘pointless’.
The ballot papers were confusing, multiple people were asked ‘which was which’, the ballot paper should have been simpler:
Keep Seanad – Tick here
No Seanad – – Tick here
If it did have to be done again, I hope that the organizers at least have the decency to add a few options:
Keep Seanad
Keep Seanad and reform
Keep Dail
Keep Dial and reform
Online voting with PPS No.
Ahhh jeez they going to make us do it again
TE HEE – JUST CHECKING
I voted no cause the idiots in government said yes…how many others used this reason ????
Reading some of the posts which are positive with regard to the way we voted yesterday are good! but the question I would like to put out there woukd be is this government good enough to get this great country of ours off its knees?
There seems to be two new groups out there. Direct Democracy Ireland and Democracy Matters. Who are they and who finances them?
Most people who voted No yesterday will never get to vote for the Senate. This result is absolutely Baffling. Reform will never happen.
Sometimes in politics you get a wallop but he’ll get more than a wallop at the GE.
I just mentioned on another forum that the Dublin football team is to be thanked for swinging the referendum result. The Yes side got its biggest kicking in Dublin where the electorate told Enda Kenny – we stuffed your football team, this is what we think of your referendum!
Chairman Mayo?
Good job Kildare
In terms of Irish politics and in the very best Northern Irish accent, ‘Dublin says no’! The masses have spoken. Perhaps the culties did not get the memo?
Totally agree with you JP that’s exactly why I voted no. People are always giving out that we are a country that doesn’t protest – well we just did with our votes instead of our feet. FG was for it so I was always going to vote the opposite and it didn’t matter what the subject was.
So it’s over, and one of the following is going to happen:
1. [most likely] the govt will spin this as an endorsement of the status quo and change nothing
They will just let the opposition call for reform and run out the news cycle clock until people stop talking about the issue, and be glad their failed Dail candidates still have a place to go.
2. They’ll propose token reform like opening the university seats, which won’t require a referendum.
lets say they did do reform though….second chambers are only ever one of two things
1. A source of deadlock if it can be controlled by the opposition with total gridlock, budgets not passing etc OR
2. A rubber stamp, which means that deep down nothing will have changed.
They won’t give you reform, but even if they do, it will be deadlock or rubber stamp.
Can you show a tally by constituency?
If you want a higher turn out then tie it in with Arthur’s day, or whatever it gets rebranded as, and let people vote in the pub! The results should be interesting.
I voted no because Kenny and Gilmore proposed this referendum to abolish the Seanad. I also voted no to the other one, the new court of appeal. 99.9% of those who voted to set up this new gravy tain for barristers and solicitors could never afford to go to the Circuit court or High court never mind the new Court of appeal. It is only for those with serious money or free legal aid, not for you and me.
Thomas McGrath
Charlie Flanagan whingeing about the confusing wording on the ballot papers. He’s had weeks to comment on the wording and waits until the No vote is winning to speak out. Maybe he thought the “confusing wording” would help the Yes camp win. I voted No because I don’t trust that sleeveen Enda. He hid in the long grass and wouldn’t debate his pet project because he’s too dense to defend his own ideas. ( BTW, I’m not sure if the predictive text is the Journal site or my iPad, but how the f… Does a computer know what I want to say?. get rid of it.)
A victory for the ordinary Joe at last, smug Enda can go and lick his wounds while he tries to figure this one out. He can always blame Bruton as Director of Elections. That will teach him to mount a push against his leader. FG and Labour totally discredited, no idea what the electorate want, time for a reform of the Dail. Old school party politics are not working, we need honest politicians, people with integrity and ethics, not failed schoolteachers.
Looking at the comments it looks more like a vote no to stick one to Enda rather then vote yes to stick one to the whole political class.
I would say they are all quite pleased more sweeties for them.
Turnout was low, but better than expected!! That just says it all really!! When less that 40% vote I don’t think anything should be passed !
a minimum of 51 % turnout should be required before anything is accepted
Hopefully reform of the Seanad will be on the agenda come the next election. Glad it has been retained but it needs to more participation from the people – special interest groups need to be represented and it needs to reflect society in general, not just the elite.
I’m also hoping that people realise they don’t have to vote for FF, FG and Labour!
will you be covering the other referendum results Hugh?
Hi Stephen,
Sinéad here at the minute – we’re both reporting and, yes, we will be covering the Court of Appeals rer. No word on when to expect a result yet.
Thanks
S
Great, we get to keep the Seanad!, more of the likes of Ivor Callaly and syrup head Donie Cassidy, and listening to David Norris spouting sh1te for the sake of gaining more air time, BRILLIANT!
well i voted yes and so no longer recognise the seanad it is an outdated british remider like the house of lords with no power but eats up lots of money by the well paid politicians who were voted out by the public but saved from the dole by giing them this ludricous waste of taxpayers money.
As far as im concerned we only have the dail no seanad
Everybody agrees the Seanad needed to be sorted. What Inda did was say I’m only giving you the option of keeping it or losing it. If you keep it I’m not making any commitment to reforming it. Keep it or lose it. That’s it. And by the way, I’m not debating it”.
A serious lesson in politics Inda. Don’t treat the electorate with such disrespect.
This referendum being defeated lies in the fact that enda kenny refused to debate what his government was proposing. As someone who has worked in the Seanad I can vouch that it is a total waste of the taxpayers money but how can anyone vote for something that our country’s ‘leader’ is too afraid to debate on national television. Disgraceful.
I knew I should have voted, damn.
Any chance of another vote like the Nice Treaty one. Wasn’t it kinda where voting no meant yes and voting yes meant no. Come on lads give us a replay- we’ve already lost out on the Galway v Limerick debacle
have your say