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THE MINISTER FOR Finance Michael Noonan and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin briefed the media today as the Troika delivered its verdict on the sixth review of Ireland’s bailout programme.
Here’s how it unfolded.
Hello and welcome to our live coverage of the press conference from Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin as the Troika completes its sixth review of Ireland’s bailout programme. Anything other than a thumbs up and a gold star from the EU, ECB and IMF will be a shock.
We’re expecting plenty of positive statements from Noonan and Howlin before the journalists in the room get stuck in with a few questions.
We’re just waiting for proceedings to get under way here. The Ministers should be with us shortly.
These press conferences are not without controversy. The last time Michael Noonan did one, he made some choice comments about emigration being a “free choice of lifestyle” which caused a lot of anger though he later clarified the remarks.
As has been noted already the Troika is not doing a press conference this time, citing the sensitivity of the timing given there is a referendum in less than six weeks time. So no opportunity to hear Vincent Browne in flying form as he goes through an ECB official for a shortcut:
Still no sign of the Ministers but a statement from the Department of Finance says that Ireland has successfully completed the sixth review. No surprise there. We’ll have the full statement shortly but it does say:
In line with each of the previous five quarterly reviewsIreland has continued to achieve all of the targets set under our programme of assistance.
Noonan: We will be able to continue to draw down the money we require. About 70 per cent of the monies will have been drawn down shortly. Programme is beyond half way stage. Number of significant advances this time.
Issue of the future of Permanent TSB has been agreed in principle. It will continue as a small retail bank, providing personal loans and mortgages to core customers. The impaired assets will be transferred into a different department. It’s a further development in ongoing restructuring of banks.
Significant piece that hasn’t been dealt with and has now been dealt with.
Noonan: The PCAR system of stress testing banks will now be aligned with other systems across Europe as the Irish banking system normalises. The schedule for that is now the Spring 2013 across Europe. No stress testing of the banks in the autumn. This is a sign of the normalisation of the banks in Ireland.
In the new MoU, there is a great emphasis on jobs. A significant policy breakthrough. Howlin will deal more with that. The context is quite good.
Noonan: We’re on course to achieve our 8.6 per cent target. Nothing on horizon to suggest we will require a mini-budget. Speculation about it “is less accurate than it ever was”.
Just to confirm then that Noonan is pretty adamant then that there will be no need for a mini-budget as had been speculated. Howlin speaking now…
Howlin: We are reaching all the targets set. There is no difficulty with the programme. The focus has been embraced by all three partners to have a growth and job creating agenda. We need to bring discipline to the way we budget. Last year’s target was more than exceeded, an underlying 9.4 per cent. Confident of reaching 8.6 per cent deficit to GDP ratio.
Howlin: We’ve signalled instruments we want to use such as the pension reserve fund. We have utilised that for the NewERA, Irish Water and so on. Want to access more funding from European Investment Bank. Have to find projects that we can drawn down money for in a “job rich fashion”.
Want to use portion of sale of State assets proceeds for job creation. A third of the money could be reinvested in economy. There is now an agreement that we will go beyond a third. Exact quantum to be determined but Howlin says more money from sale of State assets can be used for job creation.
Howlin: Unemployment as it stands remains unacceptable. No significant impact on frontline services by downsizing of public service which is being acknowledged by the Troika.
Questions now…
Question in relation to promissory notes and the comments from ECB president Mario Draghi. What is position on the promissory notes?
Noonan: Suggests that Draghi is not being quoted fully. Under terms of present contract, promissory note has to be paid but Draghi said there is a willingness to change terms. But it is not simple. Troika will continue to engage with us and acknowledge that Ireland needs further initiatives to ensure long term stability of debt situation. Best way would be arrangement on the note.
Question about NAMA and its operations with the Troika, and the Croke Park Agreement…
Noonan: No particular engagement about NAMA. €72bn of impaired loans have now been transferred to the body. Been successful in selling property in London and Dublin. NAMA is something that the Troika are happy with for the minute. Not one of the items highlighted on this occasion.
Howlin: Troika happy with progression of CPA. Most employers who want to reduce payroll costs do it by reducing numbers. Payroll cuts as well, premium pay being looked at as well. Significant downsizing is on track.
Our resident Irish speaker Gavan Reilly informs me that Noonan has said there was no discussion about the referendum at all and there were keen not to take a political stance, they being the Troika.
Noonan: As well as all the other things we do under programme, primary purpose is to reduce the budgetary deficit to below 3 per cent by 2015. Then under treaty target is to borrow at maximum 0.5 per cent of GDP. There will be a gap that budgets will have to deal with but growth in the economy should also help to meet targets.
Noonan: The obvious way to deal with structural faults is to deal with structural faults. One of those at present is the building and construction industry that was over 20 per cent of GDP. If that collapses, as it has, then there will be a big gap and a lack of employment. So that needs to be fixed.
Noonan: There will also be a pension burden in the future. The reform of public service pensions will address the structural deficit in the years when there is expected to be a pension burden.
Noonan: All the initiatives that “Richard” and “Joan” are working on will help address this structural deficit. We presume that he means Richard Bruton and Joan Burton. They’re on first name terms it seems…
Howlin: The plans that the government have like Pathways to Work will help address the problem in the economy. No increase in quantum of State assets to be sold – remains €3bn – but more of that money can be used for job creation projects after this latest review. No comment on what the exact figure will be but it will be greater than a third.
Noonan: The Department of Justice are taking lead role in complex piece of legislation. Schedule publication date for Personal Insolvency Bill is early June and it will be debated in the Dáil before summer recess.
Howlin: It is not the only instrument to deal with problems facing households in relation to mortgage arrears. Robust, ground-breaking legislation will be ready for the summer. Describes bill as “significant new mechanism”.
Noonan: On PTSB, the customer base has been in general terms blue collar customers so bank is filling very important function in provision of credit in Ireland. Might put impaired loans in IBRC in the future but no definitive decisions have been taken on that.
Irish Life is being acquired by State for €1.3 billion. It will be transferred in June. Government would like to sell it but that fell through before Christmas when the board of Canada Life did not sign off on the deal. There is still interest. It has value and its value has increased.
Question from David Murphy from RTÉ about which bank is going to be larger of the two that will offshoot from PTSB…
Noonan doesn’t have an answer on the issue of the splitting of assets in PTSB but the mandarin from the Department, John Moran, says that they will have to take a look at the assets. The objective is to do it in a capital neutral way, the recently appointed Secretary General to the Department says.
Noonan: The Eurostat survey was a result of a different view on bank debt (it estimated that the deficit figure was higher than 9.4 per cent). But the department is working off its figure of 9.4 per cent and aiming on getting it down to 8.6 per cent.
Howlin: Our growth projections impacted upon by depressed growth in partner countries. Absolutely embraced by partners who are anxious that government makes clear that success is defined as a recovering economy with growing GDP and falling unemployment.
Howlin: We’ve shrunk capital investment but still need more in the coming years on sectors like healthcare, education and construction.
Noonan: Nature of relationship with Troika is not two sides on opposite sides of the table. It’s identifying problems and working together to resolve them. That’s the way it is.
There is a serious lack of proper proposals underpinning effort to get jobs and growth on a Europe-wide level. There needs to be a shift in Europe so that there are European driven mechanisms to provide extra capital for projects. For example, the European Investment Bank and less red tape in accessing monies from that needs to be implemented.
Noonan: Increasingly people are saying: “Will you stop talking about growth and jobs and give practical examples”. The one that is easiest to fill is through European Investment Bank and providing more access to funding from that.
Noonan: PTSB has the makings of a sound, profitable, retail bank. 1800 people employed and a big branch network. It would be a tragedy if it is not made profitable again. Policy to have it as the third bank alongside the two pillar banks.
The timing of the PCAR stress test exercise is a matter for the Central Bank with EU authorities. View of Ireland now is that programme is working and that things are normalising and that we are not an exceptional case. Stress tests can now be carried out the same as everywhere else in Europe.
Howlin: We haven’t quantified a specific number. Want to reduce unemployment by as much as we can. Biggest collapse has been in construction sector. It will never be back at its peak because it was unbalanced.
Howlin: Lots of announcements on significant construction projects which will impact on that sector. There will be knock-on effects from construction projects that are being started.
Noonan: 1.86 million working at present according to policy documents from Richard Bruton. Aim to have 100,000 more at work by the time this government finishes. Despite the recession a lot of people have stayed in work. Employment fell below a million in the 80s. In our worst days now, it’s almost double that.
Noonan: Stuff we did on property in finance bill, tax relief on mortgages and the capital gains tax break for people buying commercial property seems to be “coming through”. There are “lots of stories about queues of people looking at nice family homes at present.”
Not sure what Noonan was saying there about house purchases. I have seen any stories about people queuing up to look at houses… haven’t seen any such stories recently.
Noonan: Troika would not get involved in referendum or comment about it. Won’t interfere in internal politics. My own view is that it will be very difficult to get back to the market because of linkage between Treaty and that issue. If you remove backstop of ESM, markets are less likely to let us back in. It would make it “very difficult” if we don’t pass referendum.
Another fallacy promoted by Sinn Féin that there is a “cunning plan” that we can exercise a veto if we do not ratify ESM treaty. Rules for ratifying ESM treaty are that if a number of countries ratify and are providing 90 per cent of funds then it is ratified and Ireland’s contribution is small so not ratifying it will have no bearing.
Howlin: Personal insolvency legislation is “absolute priority” for the Dáil. Bill published in June but it is a complicated issue that involves careful steering. Framework is agreed. Needs to be drafted and agreed. Available to publish before summer recess. The Troika just don’t arrive every three months. There are permanent representatives here and we interact with them all the time.
Noonan: Forecasting for growth of 1.3 per cent at Budget time. Department of Finance doesn’t do rolling forecasts. Next forecast due in next few days and “of course it will be marked down” as other forecasts have been marked down across Europe. No one accuses Department of Finance of “puffing” the forecasts. Things change as they have across Europe.
Noonan: More political uncertainty in recent weeks with situation in France, Serbia, Greece, Germany and Netherlands and their impending elections this year. But Ireland will have a stronger performance in the second half of the year. But forecasting is “an inaccurate science”. We need a stronger growth forecast if we were to get the kind of growth and job creating agenda we’re talking about.
Noonan jokes that he thought that for people who had such a long experience of the courts system that for Sinn Féin to be “bringing in witnesses from prosecution” was a mistake, referring to those leaflets. Some chuckles in the press room at that.
Howlin: We welcome statements from Francois Hollande or anybody else that support the line that growth and jobs is a specific agenda item on a Europe-wide level. Aside from that, there is a series of elections coming and there will be all sorts of talk but the Stability Pact is an agreement that will be ratified. If there is a parallel statement at the end of it, we would agree to it. We shouldn’t just stand back. We want to be part of curing the problem of not just Ireland, but the eurozone.
Howlin: We can incrementally solve our problem. The Personal Insolvency is an “extraordinary, ground-breaking” piece of legislation and people who understand it know how complicated it is to get it done.
And with that the press conferences comes to an abrupt end. They were at it for just under an hour.
So the main points from that briefing were:
In general it was not a very fraught affair and the government appear pleased with how the programme is progressing. The comment about queues of families for new housing from Michael Noonan was interesting and a bit surprising but aside from that no real controversy.
That’s all from us. Join us again for more liveblogging adventures in the near future.
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Vote no
@Breno Rodgers: I’m so glad you wrote this. You’ve completely changed my world view and made such a valuable contribution to democracy.
@Gerard: your statement highlights how pointless all the posters on both sides are.
@Skimothy: Trying to defend human life is never pointless. It is witness for the right to life as a minimum. We will all give an account come eternity.
@John Gunn: good on you for defending us women and our right to the same bodily autonomy and health care that you have. Thank you.
@John Gunn: who are we giving an account to?
@Gav Quinn: Voting no makes one a misogynist, i.e someone who despises and hates women?
More hysterical nonsense.
@Brian Madden: One’s conscience.
@John Gunn: That’s your opinion, you’re entitled to it. Where you’re wrong is you want to impose that in law for other women. You need to change your attitude to women.
@Gav Quinn: Irish women are free to have an abortion whenever they want.
Seemingly, and according to the repeal side, 9 Irish women a day have an abortion.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: There you go.
You’re quite sick in the mind, aren’t you?
@VeeryDrink: You’re the one with the fetish.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Those illegal drugs have warped your mind, dear.
@VeeryDrink: I am voting yes and my conscience is in agreement with my decision
@Brian Madden: Good for you.
@VeeryDrink: haha! Stop flirting with me, I’m a married woman.
Don’t worry. If you find a willing partner, you too might have a baby.
@Breno Rodgers: no
@Gav Quinn: LOL.
Fair play to you, Gav.
When all else fails………..
Up until January of this year, Leo Varadkar believed that that the unborn child deserved constitutional protection because the Dail and Seanad could not be trusted to liberalise the law further in the future. Many other pro-life comments from him but I’ll take the opportunity instead to give 8 reasons to Vote No to Repeal of the 8th Amendment:
1. What’s proposed is de facto abortion on demand up 6 months on UK-style health grounds, proposed law actually more extreme than the UK abortion regime.
2. Not about “hard cases” which make up less than 2% of all abortions in countries with liberal abortion regimes. This is about UK-style abortion on demand which would account for 98% of all abortions.
3. Don’t trust politicians on this issue – they’ll go further and a lot of them are on record stating this including Katherine Zappone who essentially holds the balance of power
4. Humanity of the unborn child – this is a human being deserving of legal protection. Repeal is discriminatory and also opens the door to abortion on the grounds of disability and sex-selection.
5. Not a rebalancing of rights, unborn child left with almost no legal protection. 100 legal experts agree and are calling for a NO vote, including former High Court judges and a former Chairman of the Referendum Commission.
6. Many Healthcare Professionals including Obstetricians/Gynaecologists, GPs, Nurses and Midwives and other Specialists from a range of backgrounds agree that the 8th Amendment protects both mother and her unborn baby and are calling for No vote.
7. A Yes vote could have a catastrophic impact on our primary care system as GPs are already overworked and turning away patients in many parts of the country – You or your family members in need of healthcare could be waiting longer to see your GP because abortions will be taking up their time. Because of the stresses on GP services, it will be inevitable that profiteering abortion clinics open in Ireland.
8. Women in need of genuine healthcare such as gynaecological surgery will have to wait longer for treatment because an estimated 40% of all abortions will be surgical and need a hospital visit according to senior HSE Executive Dr Peter McKenna. Waiting lists will get worse.
Please VOTE NO on May 25th.
@Emma Murphy: wow brilliant, thorough and informative comment. Nice!
@Emma Murphy: there’s so much wrong with this comment I actually don’t even know where to start! The legislation proposed is 12 weeks! Where do you and the anti choice brigade keep pulling these lies from? Like I wouldn’t mind if you presented any factual arguments but there’s literally none! It’s so frustrating and worse so because even though it’s been proven on several occasions by different expert groups to be lies, you still go ahead and believe it!
@Emma Murphy: You just going to copy and paste the same comment all the time.
@Emma Murphy: so you just want to keep sending our problem to the UK. A ‘NO’ vote won’t stop abortions for Irish women. It will still happen. We just keep sending them away with no help, surrounded by strangers and away from home. I would rather people get the support they need here instead of exporting the problem.
People on the no side make it out that abortion is an easy choice to make and that loads of people will do it. From seeing people close to me go through tradegy with no support in Ireland, it’s a really hard choice to have to make.
I am a parent to 2 children. I have experienced miscarriages with my wife. If we were given a diagnoses of a fatal foetal abnormality if we were to try again, we would like the choice to stay in Ireland. I will be voting yes
@Emma Murphy: Oh Emma! I work in health care! Please stop lying. If it’s good enough for the Masters of the Maternity hospitals then it gets a Yes vote from me and has since the X case.
@Emma Murphy:
“Abortion limit to be set at 23 weeks” – https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abortion-limit-to-be-set-at-23-weeks-35td5rdc0
The abortion limit will be up to viability, so available on the same health grounds as the 1967 UK abortion act (Ground C) which accounts for 98% of all abortions. The CEO of the British abortion giant BPAS has admitted that the health provision is widely taken of advantage of there. Peter Boylan has said that it will be up to the woman to decide what is a threat to her health. That is undoubtedly de facto abortion on demand up to viability.
Why also more liberal than UK? Two reasons:
(1) Technically there is no period of unrestricted abortion in UK law. It is all on health grounds. There is a period of unrestricted abortion proposed by the government here.
(2) As you will have seen from the “23 weeks” Times Ireland article, the only protection the unborn will have from being killed in an abortion after viability will be via “guidelines” which do not have the force of the law. UK law bans post-24 week abortions apart from exceptional cases.
FG presenting a 72 hour “stay of execution” as restrictive for the “on demand” abortions is laughable and it can be circumvented for “health” reasons anyway.
Please Vote NO to this extreme proposal on May 25th.
@Emma Murphy: as always Emma a lot of Mis information here. What about the woman? You know the actual person who will be making a personal choice for herself. This ref is about choice. The reality is it is none of your business or anyone else’s what a woman chooses to do for her life. That is why the majority of ppl will vote YES on May 25th.
@Emma Murphy: Emma if you love both so much and want to save all these lives why haven’t your campaign been advocating for free contraception, why haven’t you been trying to repeal the right to travel? As long as we can continue shipping the problem abroad I guess that will keep the no side dandy! Ps your facts are still wrong, try again
@Emma Murphy: Rubbish. Blatant scaremongering. So, let me get this straight, you want the current status quo to remain and are happy for thousands of Irish women to travel abroad for abortions each year. You’re quite content for 1,500 Irish women to order abortion pills online annually but, hey, as long as you can turn a blind eye and say there’s no abortion in Ireland. Right?
Had you taken the time to read the proposals before you just copied and pasted on the first sign of an “abortion story” you’d have known the proposals here are nothing like that of the UK.
the rest of your argument is based purely upon scaremongering, “don’t trust the government, we have experts who say A, B and C”.
Neither Katherine Zappone, or and single person (gay or not) holds ‘the power’ on this, should it be changed. The idea that a number of “experts” said something will happen is meaningless, their opinions are no more or less valid as anyone else’s, they also said the country would be swamped with divorce cases and the passing of the gay marriage referendum would be the end of us all. They were wrong.
@Michelle_Herbert: Emma doesn’t want a woman to have a choice. She will force her opinion on others and be judge and jury. Emma isn’t bothered about kids buying the abortion pill online or couples going to Liverpool to get an abortion because of a fatal feotal abnormality. Emma will talk about murdering babies and will try and use the shock factor in order to guilt people into voting no. She doesn’t care that these posters are outside schools and are frightening kids, Emma is on a mission to get a no vote and got help anyone who gets in her way.
@Emma Murphy: Emma, I couldn’t afford to travel for an abortion when I was 22 so I took lots of recreational drugs and alcohol and starved myself for a couple of weeks. I eventually had a spontaneous abortion. Had I finally saved enough money to travel, id have been about 16 weeks pregnant. So how do you reckon the 8th prevents abortion?
@Emma Murphy: WOW, this is literally all lies.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu:
19 hospitals deliver babies in Ireland, of which 5 are stand-alone Maternity Hospitals. The Masters of only two are campaigning for repeal of the 8th Amendment.
@Emma Murphy: you need to read up abit… before to give out out any more wrong information…
@Emma Murphy: With the greatest respect you’re either misinformed, mistaken or simply lying to suit your point of view. Here are the facts. This is the law in the UK with regard to abortion;
Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -
(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.
The proposals for here are much more restrictive, including a 72 hour period of reflection to allow for counselling.
With regard to the idea that an unrestricted abortion can take place here after 12 weeks, that is simply wrong, incorrect a lie. How many ways can it be said? Here is the proposals up to 23 weeks;
After 12 weeks, two medical professionals will be asked to determine the risk to a woman’s life, health or mental health before a termination can be provided. The same will apply in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities. An appeals mechanism will be available to the woman in the event she is unsatisfied with the outcome.
@Emma Murphy: It’s irrelevant if none of those are campaigning, this does not give you permission to misrepresent the facts or to lie about them.
@Emma Murphy: Yes the two most specialised maternity hospitals with the most experience in dealing with ffas and seriously I’ll pregnant women. The two hospitals where women from all over the country are referred to.
@Emma Murphy: cut n paste. There is no de facto on demand upto 6 months. Pure scaremongering.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Interesting post.
Tells us a lot about how you operate.
@VeeryDrink: Yeah desperate women will do pretty much anything to end a pregnancy. You might love pregnancy but plenty of us didn’t.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: The picture is clear.
I know what you are.
@Emma Murphy: You really do love to copy and paste.
Don’t trust Politicians.
Vote No.
@VeeryDrink: this, so much this!
Most FG TDs were pro-life before the last general election when they were soliciting peples votes (eg: Varadkar, Coveney and Harris) and betrayed those voters on a matter of life and death and yet we are supposed to trust they won’t undergo any further “evolutions”? Madness.
@VeeryDrink: Politicians are elected by the public. Showing blanket distrust is saying the public judgement cannot be trusted, isn’t that an anti-democratic mindset?
@Rochelle: the politicians I listed were all against abortion the last time they solicited votes and then betrayed that position and those voters. So why should anything they ever say on this issue be trusted again?
@Thomas White: Maybe they changed their minds because they now understand how the 8th amendment has tortured women.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: You don’t know the meaning of the word torture.
Keep one, get rid of the other, that’s torture.
@VeeryDrink: Well I have one. She’s just perfect and beautiful.
If having your body used without your consent isn’t torture, you should be campaigning to legalise marital rape.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Hysterical nonsense again.
No wonder the polls are showing a serious drop on the repeal side.
@VeeryDrink: I could have but I chose not to. I chose to better myself and my opportunities in order to provide the best of everything to a child when I felt mentally, emotionally and physically capable of being a parent.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: By drinking and taking illegal drugs until you caused a spontaneous abortion?
That’s ‘bettering’ yourself?
@VeeryDrink: yeah let’s go like old Ireland and trust the church who raped and murdered children and buried them in the sewers of places like tuam. Or maybe we should just trust ourselves.
@Mark H: To hell with the church.
Easy on the hysteria there though…..
@Thomas White: So, you oppose politicians you investigate a situation, maybe they take the time to read up on it and go to their constituents and ask their opinions. It’s entirely possible they may even have visited some of the hospitals and spoken to some of those involved, and what did they do then? They changed their minds. Are you seriously telling me in your entire life that you’ve never done this, seriously? Personally I admire them for having the balls to do it.
@VeeryDrink: Jesus wept get a new dictionary you prune.
@Gav Quinn: Typical militant abortionist attitude.
Can’t argue his case, so reverts to type.
@VeeryDrink: What exactly is a “militant abortionist”? That one conjures up images of Arnold Schwarzenegger/George Clooney type character in quasi military gear/surgical scrubs stalking pregnant women.
To really screw up these laws in the first place takes a politician, but to jerk people around and come up with phrases like “militant abortionist” takes religion. Take a bow, and for the love of mercy wash your hands before you handle food.
@Boyne Sharky: Religion??
Hardly.
Thanks for the laugh though..
I think abortion will lead us down a dangerous road and paints a bleak picture for how we view humanity as a whole….
@Daniel Donovan: it won’t lead you anywhere Daniel, unless you have a womb and a crisis pregnancy.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: This is not just a woman’s issue this is an issue that wider society has to make a decision on. If this wasn’t the case, only women with a womb would be voting.
@Daniel Donovan: if it is introduced the usual suspects will turn their attention the extermination of the sick and elderly.
@Daniel Donovan: exactly, it takes two, sick of this men shouldn’t have a vote cos they don’t have a womb lark.
@Daniel Donovan: Of course men should have a vote but fortunately for men, they’ll never have to travel to a foreign country for health care like women have to.
Vote Yes for empathy and stop punishing us women.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Again, nobody is ‘punishing’ you.
You are free to have an abortion at any time, you should know that.
@VeeryDrink: Clearly I’m not because I could be arrested. Savita wasn’t free to have an abortion. Neither was Michelle Harte. Neither was the girl in the X case and neither was the asylum seeker, pregnant after being raped who was sedated and force fed till she was six months pregnant so tell me again how we’re free to have an abortion?
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Never takes long until the tragic case of ‘Savita’ is brought out.
Have you no shame?
@VeeryDrink: If you feel so strongly about abortion, don’t have one. Problem solved. Having said that, imposing your views upon others is usually considered rude. Don’t you think?
@Boyne Sharky: I’m not imposing my views on anyone, nor am I stopping any Irish woman having an abortion.
9 Irish women a day have abortions, you know?
@Boyne Sharky: “If you feel so strongly about abortion, don’t have one. ”
” If you are against slavery, then don’t own a slave ” Pro-choice slavery , 19th century American slogan
@VeeryDrink: of course you’re imposing your views. You don’t agree with abortion so you don’t want any woman to have a legal abortion in Ireland. You’re ok with us traveling and having illegal abortions at home. You’re happy with us taking recreational drugs and alcohol to end a pregnancy though. How kind.
@Gerald Kelleher: This is a popular quote often used by the anti-abortion lobby, and there is no truth to it.
I also said it’s imposing his views upon others and this is true, abortion exists in this country now, thousands take place annually 1,500 pills are ordered online here each year. It’s ok to turn a blind eye to this and pretend it isn’t happening though, export our problems and sweep them under the carpet but never deal with them. Let’s keep pretending we’re a Catholic country when the Pope arrives.
Whereas if the referendum is passed it’s not going to be imposed upon anyone, hence the term “pro choice”, it gives people who find themselves in the situation a choice. They can take that choice or not, denying it to them however is just wrong. Lying about it and misrepresenting it, well that’s supposed to be a sin, isn’t it?
@Boyne Sharky: “Whereas if the referendum is passed it’s not going to be imposed upon anyone, hence the term “pro choice”, it gives people who find themselves in the situation a choice. ”
The referendum is undemocratic as it attempts to undermine the principle of victim/perpetrator where taking away of life is involved. There is a distinction between killing a pedestrian through unfortunate circumstances ( medical difficulties) as opposed to driving a car into a pedestrian with willful intent thereby killing them (repeal).
You don’t appear to have the intelligence to know the latter willful intent is piggybacking on medical issues so what it does is not give one section of society a choice – it merges victim/perpetrator with woman fetus and that is a society in deep trouble. I have seen the dynamics play out in the States and the large industries that grew out of legal entitlements where genuine victims are mixed together with entitlement seekers with all its awful consequences.
As for anarchy slogan ‘my body/my choice’ – that is all it is.
Vote yes/Vótáil i bhfabhar
Good to see Mickey Harte and a number of GAS players advocating the no argument in a rational, concise and compassionate way today.
#SAVE THE EIGHTH
#VOTE NO
@League of shadows: Mickey Harte has no vote in this referendum.
Very disappointed to see some GPs in Donegal come out against the referendum.
Need a more visible Yes presence outside Dublin, particularly in rural counties such as Donegal.
I, for one, hope that Ireland will finally be a place to be happy to be a woman.
@S: Women will never be happy
@S: Fine Gael is the party of D4 elites now so their only concern is wealthy middle class Dubs.
@Thomas White:
You mean “upper class”
No such thing as Irish wealthy middle class. Comfortable maybe I.e meeting your bills and you still have a bit of disposable left over by the time FG have rifled through your wallet and handed it back.
@S: Donegal gaa legend Eamon McGee is in charge of repeal together for yes in Donegal
Trust women and have compassion
@Pat Bateman: Only some of them…..
Most are.
@Pat Bateman: sounds a bit mysognistic
@Brian Madden: Buzz word of the day, is it?
@VeeryDrink: no it’s hysteria.
@Brian Madden: True enough.
Most women will vote NO, particularly those who have experienced the joy of motherhood.
#TrustWomen
@Thomas White: Most women who have abortions are already mothers.
I will vote Yes because I don’t believe my purpose is to give birth when I don’t want to.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: you lack compassion and empathy.
@Thomas White: Thomas I don’t know who you know but the Mammies of Ireland I know, including myself, know the joys and challenges of childbirth and child rearing and that it’s enormous responsibility is not one that anyone should be forced into. I think this group you speak about in such one dimensional terms know better than anyone what’s really involved. Sick of people putting women up on an altar of motherhood like the Virgin Bloody Mary
@Thomas White: #motherforrepeal
I have of compassion and empathy. That’s why I’m voting Yes so my fellow women of fertile age will also be treated with compassion and empathy instead of like breeding stock or criminals.
@Thomas White: I’m a mother to 3 children and I will not deprive people of a choice- I will vote yes
@Thomas White: I think you are wrong. And what is it with all these men trying to control women’s bodies. Sounds rather pervy.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Never heard of contraception?
@Brian Madden: Who’s trying to control ‘women’s bodies’?
Cut the hysterical crap…
@VeeryDrink: I have indeed. I was on the pill when I got pregnant.
How do you reckon that contraception would prevent fatal foetal abnormalities, pregnancy from rape or incest or pregnancy that is detrimental to a woman’s health?
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: The legislation is there to allow for abortions if the woman’s life is in danger.
FFA’s are undetectable at 12 weeks.
How many people get pregnant, say on a yearly basis, as a result of rape?
@VeeryDrink: that’s a lie. I am pregnant now and at ten weeks they did tests for FFAs.
@Thomas White: that comment such tripe I laughed out loud… don’t say that when you’re in the pub
@VeeryDrink: touched a nerve there?
@Brian Madden: Not at all, son.
You probably like to think you have though.
@VeeryDrink: You never heard of rape?
@Gav Quinn: I have, yea.
Why do you ask?
Every case is different, let women decide for themselves, after all it’s no one else’s business! Vote YES!!
@Greg Mumble: Your life, your body, your choice, your business. Nobody elses. VOTE YES.
@Colette Kearns: as a male I will be voting YES to support a woman’s right to her life, and to allow medical professionals to save a woman’s life when procedures currently forbidden are necessary
Amazing how every political party is in favour of repeal….Apart from a handful of TD’s…..However 35% at least of voters will vote no….Best if political parties don’t campaign on issues like this….Not a political issue….Stay impartial like the. media is meant to be
@pc_comments: And the church…???
Abortion is the killing of innocent pre born human life. To vote YES is to be complicit in the state sponsored slaughter of human life with potential. It is remarkable how people who were FREE accepted slavery, and people who were allowed to be born and are alive promote abortion. Shame on you. Abortion is immoral, never justified and there is a thing called eternal Justice that does not disappear just because you wish it, as does not the killing of viable pre born humans change just because you try to relabel the life to suit your dead consciences. Vote NO if you have any real humanity in you and defend defenceless human life.
@John Gunn:
You don’t know what’s best for everyone else’s mother/sister/daughter. The very fact that you think you do is enough to encourage any undecided voters to vote YES
So Leo’s grand masterplan to right the wrongs done to women in the past is to now sweep their innocent children under the carpet. Despicable. Vote No.
@Amanda Gallagher: I’m a woman and im pro choice. I won’t be forcing you to have an abortion. You’re anti choice but you think you can force me to continue with a pregnancy? See how my views don’t affect you?
Even the Adoption Alliance have come out and said they’re pro repeal.
You lot love punishing other women.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Nothing about punishing women, it is about saving totally defencless human lives from being killed. We as a society have a say in how society operates, just as we reject slavery, genocide and euthanasia, is what makes a fair and just society for all. We should be more into saving lives than worrying about feelings of people who wish to kill their pre born children.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Again, nobody forces you to continue with a pregnancy.
Hysterical nonsense.
@John Gunn: Not giving pregnant women an alternative to gestating a pregnancy is forcing women to have babies. If I hooked you up to someone for 9 months because they’d die without your body, that would be forcing you to do something you didn’t want to do.
Telling someone that they must do something is forcing them.
Abortions happen in Ireland whether you like it or not. Repealing the 8thwould give these women access to health care they need. Not long ago pregnant women were disappearing for a few days and then reappearing clearly not pregnant and their baby taken from them by forcing them into giving it up. We do the same now but we force them abroad for perfectly legal procedures. This country treats pregnant women like second class citizens.
@John Gunn: murder, killing, extermination, very strong words yet no woman has been prosecuted for having an abortion. kids are buying abortion pills and are taking them unsupervised, but I guess you are fine with that. Ten women a day are going to the UK getting abortions but I guess you are ok with that too as long as they are not in your backyard. Hypocrisy, scaremongering and name-calling. That about sums up those advocating prolife.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Us lot have consciences which tells us that a viable human life with the potential of a full life ahead, is considerably more valuable morally than hurt feelings especially when adoption and a loving family await the life being saved. Evil is allowed to happen when good people are silent or doing nothing. Ask any child that survived a botched abortion how they will be voting? Vote NO, do not be complicit in state sanctioned killing of defenceless human life with full potential.
@John Gunn: fair enough those are YOUR opinions and feelings, but how can you be so small-minded to think it’s okay to force that on other people? You are failing to see that if women want abortions they are going to get them anyway, and if they don’t they won’t – regardless of any ‘law’ that is in place. If you had a teenage daughter that got raped and fell pregnant would you force her to continue with the pregnancy?
@Amanda Gallagher: How can you afford all those kids? Do you not work? Does your husband pay for it all?
Could the yes side describe the surgical procedures in aborting a baby. Based on the UK court case yesterday where the woman who travelled from ireland and ended up dead after an abortion due to the surgical procedure going wrong. the doctor is arguing that the limb of the foetus severed her uterus. If the baby is too big is it just pulled out in pieces.
Also, in what way will most of these unwanted babies be disposed of? are they considered surgical waste after the procedure.
Any conception should be treated with dignity and respect and therefore should have a right to life, regardless of how it would inconvenience most of the women who decide to abort based on pure inconvenience to their lives in the present.
@Dan Boyle: every medical procedure is icky if that’s how you want to play it… If you’ve ever seen an appendectomy or someone’s tonsils being removed you won’t eat for weeks…
The D&C is a simple and painless procedure considerably safer than the vast majority of medicine
What’s not safe? Being a fifteen year old girl with epilepsy in Ireland. Because if you are raped and fall pregnant your doctor will, by law, be forced to stop giving you the medications that are saving your life because they interfere with the tiny clump of cells in your fallopian tubes.. What do you say to that teenage girl? You don’t really care, do you?
@Chucky Arlaw: not every simple medical procedure involves clamping the skull of a baby and ripping it apart limb by limb before hoovering the remains out of the womb.
@Thomas White: Neither does abortion. Over 90% involves a tablet. The rest involves a D&C which many women have after a miscarriage or when sampling the endometrium to check for cancer or abnormal periods. Late stage will only be done if a woman’s health is at risk and will involve induction so lucky for you, you’ll know that these women will still have to go through labour. We know how you love to hear of women in pain.
@Chucky Arlaw: Yes, again 1% hard cases put forward by the yes side to get abortion for the 99% convenience cases and yet fail to answer basic questions. Do you even know what you are voting for or have the shinners given you the script to read.
‘No one under the age of 50 has had a chance to have their say on this issue’
Ridiculous argument.
No one under 50 has had the chance to have their say on Ireland joining the EU either so is the government giving the people a referendum on this matter soon also?
@Gene Dexter: they voted in favour of the Lisbon treaty
What classic whataboutery btw.. The reason that’s said always is that there are women being punished by devoted Catholics over the age of 50 in 1983, most of whom have passed.. The law serves the people
@Gene Dexter: the point is that any woman with a functioning womb, has not had a say. And let’s face it the majority of NO supporters are no longer of a childbearing age.
@Gene Dexter: What Leo’s D4 government isn’t telling us is that they will keep putting this question to the Irish people until they get the ‘right answer’ which is another very good reason why the elites and their referendum should be rejected.
ITS high time the good people of ireland sent a strong message to varadkar and his muppets that we the irish people will not tolerate the destruction of human life in any shape or form .his modern popullist neo liberal agenda offers us nothing but the weak mindset of a selfish materialistic society where all things become an economic decision .we live in one of the most prosperous countries in the world yet we think nothing of abandoning the most vulnerable and helpless of all .the unborn …vote no and protect the life of both mother and child .the constitution of our country has served us well .
@Anthony Gallagher: Who did you vote for? Labour? AAA?
If you don’t want an abortion, you don’t have to have one. It won’t be compulsary so if you don’t want one, you don’t need to worry. If anothoer woman does, that’s her decision to make & none of your business to stop them. Vote yes & let the option become available to those who’ll feel it’s the best decision for the circumstances they find themselves in & save them the extra hassle of traveling for them.
@Keith McDonagh: “If you don’t want an abortion, you don’t have to have one.”
” If you are against slavery, then don’t own a slave ” Pro-choice slavery advocate
@Gerald Kelleher: I’m not the idiot who compared slavery to abortion so your comment is irrelevant.
@Keith McDonagh: Nobody said you were an idiot but your slogan would never find it on to a lampost in Ireland for those reasons as the entitlement seekers in this polarizing national event may be dehumanized but they are not entirely silly.
@Gerald Kelleher: I wouldn’t find a place on any lampost because it’s common sense & there’s clearly no place for common sense in politics.
@Keith McDonagh: It wouldn’t find a place on any lampost because after the ‘trust women/trust doctor’ slogans are gone, it boils down to a legal entitlement to take away life for one section of society that is a capital offence in all other sections of society. You are not women a choice, you are changing how the law behaves to everyone in society and I have seen how it operates like a savage enforcer in American society. They are trying to fix it but as long as the entitlement to take away life exists, it is a society fooling itself.
The leader of the largest party is misrepresenting the most important decision in our nation’s history. The referendum is undemocratic unless human sacrifice is considered civilized because at its centre is the attempt to undermine legal impartiality where taking away life is concerned. No civilized society worthy of the name could endorse changing the role of the law from a protector of life to be a vehicle for entitlements as anywhere that dynamic was introduced, society no longer deals with what is fair but a victim/entitlement culture.
I am sure former Tipperary Hurler Kieran Bergin, will be the next that will be wheeled out by the bible bashers, he’s really hard line .
A link to him & his homophobic brothers on a U.S. bible basher channel as they rant against “sodomy” in the run up to the marriage equality vote in 2015 . He also distributed leaflets in Tipperary in 2015, saying that if marriage equality was passed it might mean pupils in school would be think it’s be ok to be gay.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/micd-upthe-plan-to-destroy
No surprise Micky Harte was wheeled for the bible bashers. This holy joe also gave a glowing character reference for a rapist during a rape trial a few years ago in the “occupied six counties” or Northern Ireland or the “fourth green field”.
I see the new narrative is the empty platitude of don’t trust politicians.
No surprise Micky Harte was wheeled for the bible bashers. This holy joe also gave a glowing character reference for a rapist during a rape trial, a few years ago in the “occupied six counties” or Northern Ireland or the “fourth green field”.
Politicians may be vile morons (I live in Kerry) but they are entitled to an opinion, and the chance to change their opinion. If you vote no because a politician is voting yes, then you’re a f*ucking moron too
have your say