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JUNIOR MINISTER LUCINDA Creighton has said she has “grave reservations” about including the risk of suicide provision in any bill which legislates for the X Case on abortion.
The Minister of State for European Affairs is drafting a bill which would legislate for the landmark Supreme Court ruling 20 years ago but would not include the risk of suicide as posing a risk to the life of a woman.
As it stands, the ruling in the case of a 14-year-old girl who was raped and became pregnant states that abortion is permissible in Ireland where there is a risk to the life of a woman because of the pregnancy, including the risk of suicide.
This constitutional position is set to be legislated for by the government in the coming months but Creighton told Morning Ireland on RTÉ Radio this morning that the situation was not as “cut and dry” as was suggested.
She said: “I think it is difficult to identify a system that would allow for that [abortion in cases where the risk of suicide poses a risk to the life of a woman] while also ensuring that we don’t open the floodgates.”
Creighton said she would have “difficulty” with any law which included the risk of suicide and said that voting for the law would depend on the wording of the government’s bill which is due to be published in the coming months.
On drafting her own bill, she said: “I am trying to engage constructively with my colleagues in government so I want to see ultimately what the final wording will be and I have to reserve my judgement until that point.”
The Fine Gael TD for Dublin South East said there was a “lack of any certainty or singular view within the medical profession or indeed within the legal profession” as to how to go about reflecting the X Case decision during the recent Oireachtas Committee hearings.
All but one legal expert who appeared before the Oireachtas Health Committee discussing legislating for the X Case expressed the view that the risk of suicide must be included with only TCD professor and former pro-life campaigner William Binchy saying that legislation was not required.
Creighton added: “I hope that we can arrive at a wording and a system that will reflect my concerns and the concerns of many of my colleagues in Fine Gael.”
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Mrs thatcher Jr has spoken.
Here here.I hope in the future she has to deal with a serious situation where an abortion is needed and she is deniedvthen she might see the importance
I just can’t take anything she says seriously since the night Vincent Browne tore her apart. Not that I could in the first place mind you.
Les, I don’t think Thatcher was ever so pro European
@pog your comments are disgusting.
Just another keyboard warrior hiding behind a fake name, spewing bile about politicians.
I disagree with Lucinda’s views but I keep my opposition respectful against her.
@david,the truth hurt?my comments are no where near as bad as these “pro life”(really pro destruction”)
Don’t think for a second you are any better than me anyone can put up a picture and a John doe name
Comment of the week Les
@Pog Don’t pay any attention to what David says. It wasn’t too long ago that he was caught out posting comments under other fake names.
Agreed. At least we won’t have to listen to Lucinda after the next election because she definitely has less than a zero chance of getting re-elected.,,
Dublin South East has taken in extra areas that poll well for FG, she topped the poll last time. Even if two of the four gov TDs lose out, she’ll hold her seat.
How many FF TD’s topped the poll in 07 and then lost there seat in 2011? Trust me, she’s toast!
@pog “anyone can put up a picture and a John doe name”
To be fair, he may really be the David Higgins who has the same profile picture on his Facebook page (along with a big picture of Enda Kenny) and who is listed as attending Trinity Young Fine Gael meetings and being a fan of lots of Fine Gael candidates and groups.
I mention all that merely because if he objects to anonymity and keyboard warriors then full disclosure is important ;)
(Personally, anonymity per se doesn’t bother me: I’m more interested in the quality of the comments.)
But Thatcher was pro choice.
@supercoolcol
If you have statistics to back up your assertion I’d love to hear it. Yes, many FF poll toppers lost out in 2011 but that was foreseen in national opinion polls. Nothing of the sort has been seen yet in polls towards this government.
The FG vote in Dublin South East was 35.52% in 2011 and it’s a constituency that has always had a FG TD with the exception of 2002 when the vote dropped to 16% and the seat was lost.
The FG vote nationally was 22.5% back in 2002 so the vote would have to go as low for both TDs to lose their seats.
Until opinion polls show FG at that level your prediction of Creighton losing her seat is nothing more than wishful thinking.
The sub-head on this article is nonsensical. If the legislation does not include the risk of suicide, it does not comply with the X decision – by definition.
It’s not the authors fault that tge blonde fg wagon does not know anything about the case or HER JOB rumor has it she is only interested in fine dining and “meeting” on the golf course
She saw the size of the rally in Dublin and has decided to go on a solo run to cement the conservative vote in her constituency for the next election, fearing that this will backlash on Fine Gael in the polls.
So much for acting in the public interest.
As Wendy quite rightly points out, drafting legislation without consideration of giving access to abortion to suicidal women does nothing to give legislative effect to the X Case decision.
As usual the dunderhead flatters to deceive and acts in her own interest.
Lucinda, please get on with the business of government and getting this country back on it’s feet. The legislation is required as per the judgements of the supreme court and European court of human rights. There is no requirement for your personal crusade.
Women have a right to be protected in this country, where does she get the idea that she can impede a person’s safety to satisfy her warped views? She really is a pillock.
Lucinda Creighton loves to hear herself talk. She’s a pain in the arse. Do your job woman and stop seeking publicity for the sake of it.
IF Lucinda does not respect the courts, both the high court and the supreme court and the will of the people who twice had their say in not one but two referendum then she should NOT be a TD never mind a minister.
Quite and using words like ‘floodgates’ is an insult to every single woman in Ireland. Disgusting.
Separation of powers…
Her piety is sickening, as with most of the extreme rights compulsion to interfere in other people’s lives. The country has already indicated that her opinion is not the country’s opinion.
Roll on the next tragedy and holy Mary’s like Creighton will be wringing their hands and expressing their grief.
People like her ensure that Ireland continues to wallow in the hypocrisy of fifties Ireland.
She’s an absolute disgrace as a minister. This isnt her job, we hold the EU presidency, we’ve a debt to re-organise & she’s minister for european affairs yet has time to lobby against the Supreme Court.
Herself & her husband are a disgrace to the memory of good FG politicans like Garrett Fitzgerald.
Who is her husband ?
I’m not sure but his English must be bad as noone could listen to the bile she spews out
Senator Paul Bradford. He shares her crackpot views.
@ pog… You’re gas!!!
Noone?
When the Supreme Court AND the European Court of Human Rights rule that legislation must be implemented re the X case (not to mention 2 referenda), it takes some amount of arrogance and denial to decide that it can be avoided.
Are we to make these outlandish declarations each time the highest court in the land makes a ruling?…Or only when it does not suit our personal & moral agenda?
Another clear example of why Church & State must separate.
The arrogance of this woman and her party. The people have spoken in the 25th amendment referendum of 2002. Implement the constitutional will of the people and get back to doing the job ur appointed to do.
What idiots voted for this tool. She is an embarrassment to politics. Ireland’s Sarah Palin!!!!
I dismay at the suggestion that allowing for abortion in cases where the mother is suicidal would “open the floodgates”.
Two strict criteria must be met in order to obtain an abortion
1) It must be proved through assessment that the women is almost certain to take her own life.
2) The abortion must substantially reduce the chance of her taking her own life.
These two circumstances are very rare and I trust that any such legislation will be very narrow in that regard.
What the pro-life movement isn’t telling us is that they fear hundreds of pregnant women suddenly pretending to be suicidal in order to obtain an abortion in Ireland. That’s what they mean when they use the term opening the floodgates.
“the women is almost certain to take her own life”
That’s not the test under the X case. It’s a real and substantial risk to her life, not an almost-certainty.
It is still a very high threshold which is unlikely to be met outside the most exceptional of cases.
Also, I don’t think the anti-choice movement has tried to hide that what it fears is women pretending to be suicidal. They’ve openly spoken about the definition being “manipulated”.
David I could get very used to you talking such sense for a change ;) That’s exactly what they mean – you know yourself, there is bound to be queues outside the abortion mills where the floodgates have opened to the pro abortion brigade and all the silly women will be claiming they want to take their own lives so they can queue for abortions and just have great craic getting a horrendously invasive procedure done that none of them would wish to be getting done. It’s so obvious, what’s wrong with you pro choice people that ye don’t understand that’s how stupid and horrible women are!
Is it not the job of the legal draftspersons in the AG’s office to actually draft the legislation and not the politicians? What a red herring!
It is only to be expected from a fg waster.she should be concentrated on doing her job rather than anyone else’s
She’s a Doctor then, or does she think she is? She’s not even a good politician, but she should stick to what she was elected for and she’s not doing that either!
Ah Creighton, the far-right of a right wing party. Anti-Choice, Anti-Equality and has had some pretty xenophobic views in relation to Turkey joining the EU (why would they now though I suppose). I’ve stopped listening to her a long time ago, so should everyone else.
“Open the fload gates”? Why do a lot more of the anti choice(pro life) idiots get articles written about them?
I think Lucinda may be looking to become party leader when Enda retires, she’s just as another one looking after herself first.
That will happen, a huge mess for her to clean up. After the old guys have done the dirty work and got their pensions, they may have to join ff to try and make some kind of party?
Stephen, you’re right I’ve never really understood why she’s a member of FG, she seem to be at odds with the party and the people more often than not.
She’s an ambitious woman alright, but I reckon she’s got her eye on becoming an MEP. Varadkar is more likely to become party leader.
Varadkar couldn’t find his ass with a torch, map and two free hands. So I would say he’s over qualified for the role.
Is she completely stupid? Does she forget the Supreme Court ruling on suicide and the two referendums that voted yes to include suicide as a risk.
Enda really needs to reign her in.
She’s a barrister at law… call it selective blindness? Or cognitive dissonance?
Junior minister for European affairs… .9% of European population with 1.2% GDP are carrying 42% of the PAN European banking crisis debt. Now there is a wee job that needs ur attention.
It makes no difference what she thinks, suicide has to be included, otherwise the government has to hold a referendum to specifically prohibit suicide from the constitution. The X case decision states that suicide is a factor and is constitutional. I don’t fancy this governments chances of passing any referendum. So let Lucinda and Michelle “fornication” Mulherin pander to their followers, it’s coming in anyway. Even they know it.
She’s one of the few politicians who speaks sense. The whole suicide risk is only scaremongering by the anti-life brigade.
With “anti life” being those who let a woman die to satisfy their own believes, you mean?
So says the Rosary Bead brigade, lets allow mothers die and children already born go without!
There is a constitutional right to abortion in suicide cases so this notion that it can be ignored in any legislation is ridiculous.
She is not speaking sense, she is speaking from her biased, ideological perspective.
Ann go to mass and stop worrying about common sence
Troll
@Ann.. so you’d rather risk letting the suicidal woman kill herself and the foetus? Pot, kettle..?
@ann…. I work in the area of suicide prevention and to say the risk of suicide is ‘scaremongering’ is dangerous, ignorant and thoroughly lacking any knowledge in this area.
How can anyone take the “pro-life” brigade seriously when they come out with this drivel?
Ann at the hearings all medicaland legal experts said we need to legislate except whose who gave personal opinion.
Wow! What a surprise, a young pampered woman from a posh southside suburb of Dublin doesn’t know of the effects of mental health difficulties in pregnant women! I am truly shocked!
She’s only a blow in! She’s a Mayo culchie really!!
I too have grave concerns – about a woman like her in a position like that talking crap
‘JUNIOR’ Minister Lucinda Creighton will say & do anything to make her mark, the fact that she may not actually agree with her own statement will not stand in her way, putting her stamp on something is the driving force, 2nd rate megalomaniac politicians tend to surface during hard times when the electorate is frightened & desperate but thankfully people have become very politically aware in recent years which will ensure that her ‘JUNIOR’ status will remain the pinnacle of her political career.
Trying to engage with her colleagues in government? She could try engaging with the electorate whose will she is currently ignoring!
Anyone lucky enough to share lucinda’s sentiment I fell must not at any stage been touched ( with a sledge hammer) with the indescribable pain of loosing someone to suicide. I hope she never will or anyone will but to say that a suicidal person can not avail of a service due to scaremongering smacks of ignorance and contempt for a real problem faced in Ireland. It’s like saying you can’t consider rain a factor in flooding. Or sun a factor in a desert. Or endless other eg. I do respect the life of an unborn baby but not at the risk of an already living otherwise healthy woman. To say if we bring this in it will be treated like the morning after pill is the most damming and vile outlook people must hold of the human race. I don’t think any woman has or ever will make this decision as lightly as the Catholic Church and our small minded politicians would have you believe.
Has she not got more pressing things to deal with that this
Sick of this woman hawking her conscience around the country.
If she is not happy with HER Government’s plans, resign and speak from the back benches. Oh, that would mean a pay cut, and fewer publicity opportunities, wouldn’t it?
Grave concerns alright, but not grave enough to walk away from her massive salary or pension prospects.
She is an embarrassment to Dublin Sth East. Mannix Flynn should be in her seat.
I don’t buy this ‘opening the floodgates’ argument that people give, not just politicians, when having arguments over contentious legislation. It’s employed mainly to scare people and has no real merit in facts and completely derails a discussion. It’s lazy politics. Same with the issue of legalizing pot, that it will result with people legally skagged out on heroin in work once it’s made legal. It’s a load of bollocks. Legislate for it and stop being a scaremongerer.
She needs to have some sense MASHed into her.
Lucinda has aspirations far beyond the tiny Irish political puddle she now inhabits, she has her sights set on sailing the glistening European ocean & is busy ingratiating herself at the feet of those in positions of power in the EU, trampling on her fellow Irish citizens to get there is the least of her worries when she has such a jewel in her sights, only a short time ago she was happy to participate in a cue to oust her own leader but now she sits at his right hand again declaring confidence in him ad nauseam, the truth is that Mrs Creighton’s aspirations far our reach her ability.
Creighton!! Why don’t u just phuck off, get your nose out of other peoples business and get back to whatever it is your suppose to be doing! Nobody likes you, you won’t get in next election!! Fact!
She is just hedging her bets for pro life voters in the next election. When she follows the party whip, (and she will follow the whip), she can say that she tried to suggest an alternative. It merely cheap political demagoguery.
“It’s”
That’s OK, Lucinda. Plenty of people are having doubts about YOU.
I couldn’t think of a worst Minister to draft this Bill. This is real foot in mouth territory for Creighton.
The minister is wrong and my bringing her own bill she is just blurring the issue. Ireland has moved on since the 80s.it’s time we started dealing with the real issue that been that last year around 4500 Irish women’s had abortions and while that figure has been reducing in the last 20 years 100000 irish women have traveled to the UK.that’s one in forty five.at the hearings we heard many reasonable people tell what we legally need to do the government need to get on with it.
I can tolerate a lot but I find it difficult to tolerate Lucinda Creighton. Is she seriously that arrogant that she believes she can draft her own piece of legislation and overturn a ruling by the supreme court and the results of two referendums. I wonder what her thoughts are on the 14 year old rape victim, does she believe that the child should have been forced to give birth.
this floodgate analogy is becoming ridiculous. I even heard an RTE reporter use it on Marion yesterday.
Are they suggesting that their are millions of Irish pregnant women sitting around and then deciding to go and have an abortion, just cos they can?
This whole debate has been characterised by the infantilisation of women.
Stupid woman will choose abortion for the crack.
tupid woman will commit suicide if she does not get her way.
Stupid woman should not be allowed to decide her own destiny in life.
Stupid woman is only equal to a foetus, maybe, depending on how robust the foetus us. If its strong, the woman is inferior, if the foetus is weak, the woman will be allowed precedence.
Any who gives a fiddlers what Cretin thinks?
This horrible person doesn’t even have any children so how can she even know what she’s waffling about, as the saying goes,”walk a mile in my shoes before judging me”
There is so much wrong with what she says it’s difficult to accept that she’s being serious.
Besides willfully ignoring the ruling of the Supreme Court, the will of the citizens of this country in two subsequent referenda, the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, and the UN, she is also perpetuating the archaic and, frankly, down right dangerous attitude to mental health issues that persists in this country.
To suggest that the flood gates may open belittles not only every woman in the country, but also suicide, depression and their associated ills. It is a very serious matter, and just because she doesn’t believe in mental health issues, doesn’t mean they aren’t real, nor that the associated risks are substantial.
This is as much about promoting the RCC’s arcane views on suicide, etc. as it is about promoting their view that women should be controlled.
Disgusting.
She is right- in the UK there were 4 suicides out of 2,000.000 pregnancies!
Which is far lower than suicide rates in the general population,the rates of suicides amongst women who have had an abortion are far higher!
Don’t let the facts get in the way though!
If this passes with the suicide clause it will lead to far more women dying along with the Babys that are killed!!
I really don’t understand your last comment. The purpose of the clause is to protect women from that outcome.
You claim suicide rates among women who had an abortion are higher. You also say facts should not get in the way. Indeed they shouldn’t, so in order to illustrate that facts on on your side – prove it.
David – go back to sleep
“She is right- in the UK there were 4 suicides out of 2,000.000 pregnancies!”
And how many suicides would there have been if abortion wasn’t available?
David, I am British, but the Republic is not the UK so comparisons are pointless.
David
In the UK women have the right to an abortion.
Do you have any “facts” showing that having that right increases the risk of suicide during pregnancy?
It could be argued that having that right may actually reduce the risk of suicide during pregnancy.
Without the right to abortions in Ireland, Irish woman have the added emotional & physical stress of travelling to a foreign country to have an abortion. This could be enough to push them into believing suicide is the best option.
Mind you I don’t have any “facts” to back this up, but common sense would appear to back this up.
Even if you are completely in agreement with her about abortion, to allow the possibility of liars to legally obstruct the protection of genuine cases is complete nonsense. By that logic, the entire legal system would be defunct (not to mention any aspirations for economic recovery).
nobody can own a life , our parents dont own our lives and we dont own our childrens lives , if you dont have ownership of something you cannot destroy it , while its a womans body and all that , she does not own the life thats inside her and therefore does not have the right to destroy it , abortion is never the solution , adoption is best all round if it comes to that , people are crying out to adopt children nowadays.
So how many children have you adopted?
Perhaps then we should make adoption easier, there’s children in orphanages all over the world desperate for parents – surely there’s a solution here that doesn’t involve forcing women to give birth against their will?
Lucinda Creighton could only have “grave reservations about including the risk of suicide provision in any bill which legislates for the X Case on abortion”, if she is of the opinion that the Supreme Court & the voice of the people in the 25th amendment referendum of 2002 is wrong.
Does she expect us to believe she knows better than the Supreme Court? It appears she does.
Does she expect us to believe she knows better than the voice of the people? It appears she does.
This can only end in 3 ways.
1. She stands by this statement & votes against the wishes of the Supreme Court & the will of the people, and has the party whip removed from her & loses her ministerial pension.
2. She votes in favour of it & runs the gantlet of being called a hypocrite.
3. She and others self serving failed teachers in her party push for another referendum on the subject, believing they know better than the Supreme Court & the people. It’s not like we have not been asked to go back and vote a different way because the voice of the people did not agree with the politicians in power. Do I have to remind people what happened the last 2 times we did this?
All I have to say to Lucinda & her failed teachers, “It’s time to $hit or get off the pot”.
I have just worked out that over 70% of the posts here have been attacking the woman personally rather than attacking her position or her statements .
The owners of social media sites need to act in a responsible way . Some of the bile been spouted here on both sides of the argument is to say the least is highly offensive to people who have strong opinions on the topic ON BOTH SIDES
Maybe a little moderation from Distilled media might be in order or is the cost of paying somebody to so do so not within budgets ! !
Hasn’t the Supreme Court and the people already ruled on this????? Is she declaring that she would go against the wishes of the people and legal institutions of the state??? She really is dumb if you ask me.
well done Lucinda, we need many more young ladies like you, smart ,beautiful and not selfish, with a bit of class, come on ladies, kay
Lucinda Creighton has the right to her opinions, values & views. Many of the commenters here, seem to be unable to express theirs, without spewing hatred. If fact, most of it not much better than classic trolling.
Even if I didn’t agree with Lucinda Creighton, that doesn’t give me the right to name call or abuse.
It just shows, crystal clear, the mentality of most of the commenters.
Most unable for any form of rational argument, – just one big baying mob.
I am pro choice but she has a point! What’s to stop any how ya in pyjamas claiming shell commit suicide, it may be used as an excuse by some but I guess that’s what proper psychological assessment is for on a case by case basis! But again that’s just it every case and circumstance s individual and only that individual knows what’s right for them.
There’s nothing to stop them doing it now. The supreme court ruled on this more than twenty years ago.
“any how ya in pyjamas” and you say you’re pro choice? Or is it just pro choice for respectable women is it?
Pro-choice…. But only for middle class, white, Irish women with a university degree of 2.1 or higher. The lower underlings can’t be trusted to decide if an abortion is the right decision.
“I am pro choice..”
No, you are not.
The X judgement requires that the threat of suicide has to be accepted as a reason for an abortion and the coming legislation has to allow for that. No amount of Jesuitical wording in the coming law can avoid the outcome of the 92 Supreme Court judgement, supported by two referenda, that suicide can be as much a threat to a pregnant woman’s life as septicaemia and that in some fortunately rare cases it will be necessary to provide an abortion to protect her life. Creighton will have to accept that fact and vote the legislation through or resign her ministerial post.
Sigh!
She should be commended for standing up to the party for her views, not castigated as some kind of soviet-era dissident would have been…
Thank you, Lucinda
Lucinda Creighton is right.
And hopefully she will be our next Taoiseach, as a result of her courage she has shown through all of this.
Savita could easily have been transported to the UK for an abortion. That didn’t happen, why?
I believe her sad death was all built up to propagandise to force abortion on the Irish people against our will as is now happening.
This is therefore the final end of democracy in Ireland.
Lucinda Creighton should remeber that Ireland is still a democracy and not a dictatorship despite her blatant and sheer disregard for the democratic process. The courts have spoken and Lucinda the people have spoken on this matter twice, they don’t agree with your analysis of the situation, a majority feel you are wrong.
As for opening the flood gates, what flood gates are these – thousands of Irish women have abortions each year – its like locking the stable door when the horse has already bolted.
Irish women need this service for what ever reason they decide – they don’t need permission from Lucinda. They go to the UK because thats where they get the treatment, same on you for not providing the service here. Head in the sand :-(
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