Could you be any more patronising??? Everyone is well aware of the ramifications of abortion, thanks for the morality lesson! Maybe if Lucinda exercised such moral judgement when SNAs and services for poor and sick were being cut it might be easier to praise her for “moral conviction”!

Your just moving goal posts Diarmaid. A transparent tactic.

So Fergal.. What’s your opinion on what we should do with ectopic pregnancies? Seeing as how abortion is so awful and all.. What’s the alternative in this instance?

Who lives in denial?

I had an abortion. It meant the minuscule foetus inside me was taken out so I did not have to give birth and raise a child. It was the undeveloped, insentient beginnings of a human life over which I do not feel the need to be sentimental.

I have also had a miscarriage of a foetus at the same stage as my abortion was. It was a rape baby that I was forced to carry in Ireland in the 90s.

Don’t dare talk to me about the reality of this, you absolute hypocrite. Biologically, by definition, you have no, and can never have any clue about the reality of an unwanted pregnancy OR abortion – only your perceived reality.

And the less said about the perceived reality of the religious, the better. I’d worry more about your own dying breed than the cells inside other people’s bodies.

Shanti, Thankfully the practice with ectopic pregnancies has been to give the mother’s life priority and the result is that the pregnancy ends.

However, while this may be the practice, it is a grey area and medical practitioners could be caught. There is need for legislation to bring clarity for all concerned.

The problem with this proposed legislation is that it is black and white – life and the termination of unborn life is not so simple.

Does this woman not represent ALL of her constituents when in the Dail, surely there not all anti abortion, for her to vote with her conscious she not representing the people who voted for her albeit that she is representing some but not all. Her conscious is not what pays her wages.

Fergal I would not congratulate her ….yet. She should be able to stand by her convictions and speak up, like other TDs, on whether she is yes or no.

@Dee Writeful, I feel awful that anyone would have to go through the hurt and torment of rape. I appreciate your effort to voice your opinion but you should bear in mind there are a lot of studies of the effects of abortion and sadly many women come out for worse then you. This is science Dee not religion. Also sentience doesn’t really come till 3-6 years of age so that has no bearing in this topic.

87% of Irish women who have had an abortion feel they made the right decision – so claiming that abortion causes mental health issues is incredibly unsupported.

Curiously you don’t mention that in the same study 44pc of women who had abortion experienced varying level of regret. Also it is worth bearing this very complex topic can’t be resolved with with a simple ICCP questionnaire.

Seamus.
Every woman I know in Ireland, or have spoken to about the subject (which is many) who have experienced an ectopic pregnancy were allowed to progress until the tube was about to rupture and her life was in danger. Now, unlike my friends in the UK, they were not given a medical abortion, which would induce a miscarriage – which is the most frequent outcome for a tubal pregnancy, they were allowed to progress until the tube was set to rupture, then had emergency laparotomy to remove the tube and the ovary.

To me, this seems inhumane. The pregnancy cannot continue, so why allow it to progress to such a dangerous situation, then subject the woman to abdominal surgery which has several weeks recovery time in addition to the mental trauma caused by the whole experience..

I have heard that there are some doctors willing to do it the humane way, but they are not inclined to advertise it, presumably because it is more than their job is worth.. This is what “pro life” causes.. Forcing women into life or death situations because of undue focus on the unviable foetus..

sadly many women come out for worse then you.

I’m sure women do regret that they couldn’t parent or that they had an unplanned pregnancy – but ultimately, they made the best decision for them. You seem to have this idea that no women would have any regrets if forced to give birth!

Before I say anything can I say at the outset I am very sorry to hear about your past experiences Dee. Truly awful! We need more courageous women like you to be listened to rather than giving megaphones to pampered, insulated know it alls! Thanks for sharing that very personal info! I know all too well the personal experience of abortion too but can not even fathom the pain you went through!

As for me constantly moving goalposts Fergal, yes I went off topic, but it was for a valid reason. You were the one who sung Lucindas praise for “moral conviction”. I merely showed that up to be a naive and bias comment! As well as that I find it pretty rich for someone in prolife to talk about moving goalposts – “Abortion is not a treatment for suicide ideation” – No one ever claimed it was / “Abortion kills babies” – Factually, medically and in every way totally and utterly false! / “Babies can be aborted up until 9 months” – WRONG again! All the leading obstetricians said this will not happen, once baby is viable it will be delivered NOT aborted!

So spare me the ole wishy washy playing the man one dimensional response and jog on if you have nothing intelligent to contribute!

Thanks Diarmaid!

The abortion was obviously difficult, in that it forced me to face my mental health issues (a ten year hangover from being raped and miscarrying), but was the right decision without a shadow of a doubt, and made me totally turn my life around so that now I am ready to have children, and can’t wait. I don’t regret the abortion at all, at all, not a tiny bit. I regret the situations around it as much as it is healthy to regret anything.

Not being able to have an abortion as a raped, traumatised teenager in Ireland was awful, it compounded the trauma of the situation more deeply than I can explain. Never felt so lost and alone and ‘taboo’. Miscarrying and blaming myself for it was more awful, when I wanted an abortion so much but had no idea how to go about it, to go through that pain was such a kick in the face. I remember after the miscarriage, seeing what was expelled, what was considered more important than my own bodily autonomy, my own right to choose not to carry a baby conceived by a rapist, and it made me very very angry. It still does, but thankfully it will all change and soon other women won’t have to go through the same psychological turmoil.

@Diarmaid, development in the uterus is a little more complex. Viability outside the womb is not a hard and fast point. What has been said is that babies on the cusp of viability will be given an extra week or so to develop. Babies have survived at 21 weeks but even at 26 weeks there is a 50% higher chance of disability and a 20% risk of death. So don’t talk to me to me about misinformation! Funny how you restrict ‘all leading obstetricians’ to a small arbitrary number of individuals who happen to be pro choice.

I would have thought the current and former masters of one of the busiest maternity hospitals in Europe would constitue good advice no? But trust you to go questioning a professionals integrity and credibility cause you don’t agree with their superior knowledge! That Sir is straight out of the David Quinn book of communications. Ironic then how you seem to think psychiatrists Like P Casey who head up vile, right wing, staunchly Catholic, paedophile priest apologist “Institutes” like Iona can remain objective at the same time though?

Actually about ~113 Irish psychiatrists (of 130 who responded) have called for suicide to be omitted from the bill. that is a confidence interval of 5-10%. Its pretty darn accurate. Funny how you use ‘right wing’ as if it is shameful. Its shows up your hateful bias.

I was hoping you would bring up the 113 psychiatrist rubbish, not alone did Patricia get those names against ethical rules (surprise surprise) but the way the question was phrased people could only offer the “right” answer. She was already found out on live radio about this!!! On top of that is this the same woman who had a New Zealand doctor telling her live on air that she was misquoting, misinterpreting and blatantly mis-using his research to assert that he came to a conclusion he never did! She was also found out live on air with this! Hardly a reliable source one would think? As well as that if you think criticising an organisation that is clearly misogynous, has a record as being an apologist for the Vatican who covered up the rape and abuse of thousands of Irish children, portrays itself as some protector of the people and humanity but has never been seen EVER raising a single penny for sick or disadvantaged kids or people, nor have they ever thrown their weight in behind opposition to SNA cuts (the list goes on and on) as being hateful then I am one HATEFUL man, you’re correct!

Don’t be stupid she will not go against the whip

Exactly. Every woman should have the choice. If you don’t believe in abortion as I don’t, why should you or I be racists and dictate our morals on someone else. Everyone should make up their own mind.

If my 16 year old came home preggers, I’d let her make up her own mind but simply offer her the hard truth on both sides.

Exactly. The very thought of never having to hear that voice again has me nearly delirious!

Please please please leave

Luncinda’s motivation in deciding how to vote will have little or nothing to do with her opionions about abortion and everythign to do with Luncinda’s glittering career. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

Apart from anything else she represents a constituency with a history of some of the most pro-choice votes in the country, and she knows it. She is playing a game she thinks is very clever – spout anti-choice rhetoric and talk about her angst and her struggle to decide etc etc to keep one lot on board, then vote the other way so as not to alienate the other lot.

She is trying to run with the hare and the hounds. That never ends well.

Ach, Lucinda. I’ve no idea who Luncinda is.

Well, in that case Eamonn, the people in her constituency should know how to vote in the next election.

Nah they only look after their own just like they looked after Pope John Paul I.

I no loads against abortion and I mean abortion on demand and none of them are devoted Catholics!

Women can drive cars in Saudi Arabia!

So?

Yes Nick,
So nice of you to speak for them too.

They can speak for themselves. And have, claiming that Ireland’s abortion laws are a disgrace – which is true. No one else would be denied care in the way pregnant women in Ireland have.

So, we’ll just ignore the negligence then. For no particular reason.

No one is ignoring it. But as the inquiry into her death noted, doctors were slow to offer her an abortion due to current law. Michelle Harte was denied a termination needed for chemo. You can claim negligence there as well, but it becomes a pattern – pregnant women are not given the option of aggressive treatment because their lives are being “balanced” with that of the foetus.

Creighton’s objection is to the ambiguity of the suicide clause. She explained it very clearly in her speech. Bringing up Savita, which is completely irrelevent as Creighton definitively expressed her support for abortion in those cases, shows that you didn’t listen to her speech, didn’t understand it or willfully ignored it.

The discussion on these articles is intellectually vapid.

“doctors were slow to offer her an abortion due to current law”
Nicely abridged, however, I understand that a court has yet to rule on that issue.
This bill is supposed to be about the X case ruling, or so I understood.

The inquest ruled on it. And the X case ruling noted that women have a constitutional right to an abortion if their lives are at risk – this legislation is vindicating that right.

The bill is in relation to the threat of a mother’s life. The very case that this legislation is based off was around a suicidal girl (which Creighton seems to have forgotten). The case of Savita showed the flaws that a lack of legal clarity brought. Yes there was negligence involved that also needs to be addressed, but if she had been provided with the abortion she requested after her miscarriage was not progressing properly it would not have gotten that far.

Creighton’s comments about protecting life are around the child’s life, not the mother’s life. This is what the legislation is about, the mother’s life! Whether the threat to her life is physical as it was in Savita’s case or the threat is due to mental health as in the X case, the mother’s life should come before the child as the child cannot survive without the mother anyway but a mother can survive without the child!

Thank you, Joe, for your expert advice claiming that a woman (or a young rape survivor) could never be suicidal solely due to a pregnancy – that a girl who had been repeatedly sexually abused couldn’t want to kill herself just because a pregnancy resulted from rape.

I put to you that you have very little understanding of how a pregnancy resulting from rape and sexual abuse could affect someone.

Nick, I put it to you that depression is the underlying problem, not the pregnancy. There is something of myth going around that suicidal ideation doesn’t respond to treatment. It does! The problem is when people are not diagnosed or monitored. The X case clause will have no impact on Ireland’s depression epidemic.

So pregnancy resulting from rape can’t be the traumatic experience – you automatically assume that the woman must have mental illness? I’m very unsurprised that two men are the ones expressing the opinion that the pregnancy itself couldn’t make a young girl suicidal.

You do not need to be depressed to feel suicidal.
Suicide comes from stress, it comes from feeling like it has all gotten to be too much and that death is the only way out.
To say that an unwanted pregnancy cannot induce these feelings in women is completely ignoring the woman’s feelings.
The majority would not actually act upon it, they would have better coping skills and find the means to travel if that was their ultimate decision.
The ones with poorer coping skills will be overwhelmed by the situation and their rationality will go out the window – these women a minority though they may be, are a threat to themselves, which means they are a threat to the foetus too.
Chances are before a woman gets as far as the review panel she will have either already tried to induce an abortion herself, or she will have made an attempt on her life already. The last thing she’s going to want to do is sit in a room proving how suicidal she is, it would be easier to do anything else.

Shanti,
I think your simplifying mental health into some sort of vapid caricature. Don’t denigrate women this way. No one wants to commit suicide at the whistle of a hat. It always is the last resort arising from a mental illness. A pregnant women with with suicidal ideation is still going to be vulnerable after abortion. Abortion will cure nothing unlike actual treatment. Its wilful conflation on your part.

Suicide is a major problem in this country and we need to be very careful about spreading misinformation.

It is not always due to mental illness. Some people become suicidal due to a bad situation. If a woman is suicidal solely due to her pregnancy, she will not be suicidal after an abortion. You don’t seem to have the breath of experience with pregnancy to believe it can be the sole trigger of suicidal feelings.

Research suggests that 70 to 90 per cent of people who have made a lethal attempt, or died by suicide, were suffering from one or more unmanaged mental health issues. What may seem like an out of the blue event after a traumatic event is unlikely to relate purely to that event.

Nick, can you please show an example of when a woman was suicidal purely due to the fact that she was pregnant and had no other contributing factors?

Risteard how would anyone on here be privy to confidential medical files?

There would be recorded statistics, like there is with other medical ailments.

@Rísteard Ó Muineacháin the x case? The girl was sexually abused and became pregnant as a result. The sexual abuse combined with the resulting pregnancy caused her to become suicidal! She was a child carrying her abusers child being legally restricted from travelling to have a termination, purely barbaric! is it any wonder her mental health was affected?

In pretty much any constitution or human rights convention the right to life is written before anything that comes near ‘bodily autonomy’. Bodily autonomy isn’t even written in the Irish constitution as its only an unenumerated right.

The right to an abortion when a woman’s life is in danger, including from suicide, is however, a written right.

Fergal you speak nonsense Pluralism means that people can have a choice this woman is against choice, your argument is shallow and utterly reflects the ignorance of the narrow minded bigots that this women takes her world view from. Separate church and state Law makers in parliament and preachers,prayers and superstitions in the place of worship.
I do not want peoples imaginary friends or sky fairies influencing the Government.

Fergal how come you refused to answer Diarmuid in his earlier questions and disproving of your quotes???

Yet you come in with someone new that you think you can victimize???

“The right to an abortion when a woman’s life is in danger, including from suicide, is however, a written right.”
- Where, Nick?

The Eighth amendment to the Bunreacht na hEireann – confirmed by a Supreme Court decision and two referendum.

So there’s no need to specify suicide in the legislation is there?

Well, if you’d read the ABC case, they noted that Ireland had no procedure to enforce the constitutional right and (as the Expert Group agreed), this meant that women did not have a mechanism to enforce their rights. So, yes, a process for suicidal women to access their right to an abortion is needed.

Thus practices that are inherently negligent are permitted to continue unquestioned while the need for legislators to decide on questions of medical practice is favoured.
Women who seek to have their rights enforced could always take a case of their own exactly like ABC against a MEDICAL PRACTITIONER who denied their right. But this never happened.
So, No, Nick, the legislature should not be involved in legislating for “a process for suicidal women to access their right to an abortion” if suicide is the issue.

No pro/lifing or pro-choicing here but that argument makes no sense. Women can travel because we protect our citizens right to leave the state without questioning, you can’t simply stretch that argument to include the state here providing every and any service legally available in another country on the basis that people can leave the state anyway. Should we legalise prostitution simply because maybe 10,000 Irish men avail of it anyway by leaving the state and going to Holland?

We have to make our own Laws not just accept others by default which is why the debate around this Bill is a difficult but ultimately necessary one for us as a people.

Tiernan I think you’re missing his point

Yes Oliver they will have the edit the Oxford book of speeches for this sycophant

true Oliver. I was very impressed by her speech.
This issue goes way beyond faith or Catholicism.
It is also a human rights issue, not just for the mother, – but the child also.

I think ‘freedom of conscience’ is also defined as a human right, according to the UN.

Zoe you’re making things up again

A foetus is not a child. What about the right of a child to have parents that can take care of him or her? What about the right of a child to be a wanted child? No, those do not count.

The same UN, who along with the WHO, has urged states to liberalise abortion law to save women’s lives?

Why is it that anti-choice people are so willing to assign rights to unfeeling, unthinking embryos yet will happily deny rights to living, breathing women?

There is no right to take the life of others.

And there is no right to force a woman to go through with a pregnancy and that’s why thousands travel each year –

We export our problems and pretend that the right to bodily autonomy and abortion facilities aren’t wanted and needed but all evidence shows that abortions are a reality in Ireland its just a lack of the service that’s missing

Think of how many people go to Amsterdam for the prostitutes. Should be turn a part of Temple Bar into a red light district so?

What a gobdaw!

If there was a constitutional amendment protecting people’s right to travel to go to Amsterdam, it’d be high time to consider a red light district, yep.

To say nothing, Joh Everyman, of their deafening silence on the maltreatment of living children, through bad parenting, lack of proper child services and also by the very organisation most of them in this country so slavishly follow.

Thats like for like is it ??