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MARY HANAFIN HAS warned against increasing the pensions of former government ministers, saying that the economy “isn’t ready” yet.
The former Fianna Fáil education minister and now councillor described the pensions as “very generous”.
Speaking to The Marian Finucane Show on RTÉ Radio 1, Hanafin said:
“I think we should be the very last people, the very last, to get any kind of an increase.”
I don’t think the country is right, or the economy is right yet, to be paying us or the very big pensioners extra money.
The Sunday Times reports today that under the recently agreed public sector pay deal, former government ministers are in line to receive a pension increase.
The paper details that the maximum increase is in the region of €1,680. For example, former taoiseach Brian Cowen’s pension will increase from around €134,000 €136,000.
The Department has defended the increases, with a spokesperson telling the paper that the increases are weighted towards civil servants at the other end of the pay scale.
Hanafin said that in her own situation, she doesn’t take an allowance or expenses from the Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown council, worth roughly €30,000 together.
Speaking to the same programme, Hanafin also defended the Fianna Fáil government’s actions during the financial crisis.
She said the regulator, the Central Bank, and the politicians were each left to look after their own areas, but she doesn’t think this “hands-off approach” is appropriate now.
Former finance ministers Brian Cowen and Charlie McCreevy both appeared before the banking inquiry last week.
Quoting opinion and colour writers, including TD Shane Ross, Hanafin said the inquiry so far has been aimed at ‘nailing Fianna Fáil to the cross’.
“That just hasn’t happened yet,” she said, noting Ross’s suggestion that it could boomerang and negatively affect the current Government.
Disgraceful !!
Cowan gets134k pension? FOR WHAT?? We reward failure like no others in this country.
And he is employed by Dinny at Topaz.
Tom Kelly
just to piss you off even more
http://www.thejournal.ie/in-full-what-former-ministers-get-after-the-governments-new-levy-292810-Nov2011/
and don’t forget our former Attorney’s General, including my personal favourite “Suds”
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/eight-former-ags-have-pensions-up-to-67-000-1.13666
No more pay rises to politicians.Hanafin take a hike you people caused this mess.Only afool would vote that clownback in
Blame ure selves for voting them all in for decades when ye all new they were crooked.We need change
what about the old age pensioners.they were robbed blind by this government what with the household charge and demands for water charges.it leaves them with very little.the last thing we need is former government ministers getting more money when the government says no to OAPsthis needs a reality check and come down to the OAPs level.cuts after cuts where will it end.
Leaches as if they don’t get enough to live on already. something seriously wrong with our society people the rich get richer and the rest can go be fxxked down the line this is going to lead to serious and I mean serious problems it’s happening as we speak but will get bigger until it all goes to shxt.
Ff fg labour destroyers of our country http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland
boycott Topaz and burn IW bills, enough is enough.
We have Mick Wallace new revelations to add next week. Every week its the same old s***.
Paudi
Mick Wallace is a poor example.the only difference between him and the rest is,he looks like he needs s good wash!
a true man of the people is mick in any other country he would be ran neck like a jockeys bollix
For once I agree with her
Alright for an a++*hole like her to reject this deal for a popular vote after earning hundreds of thousands as a TD.
But for public servants who are struggling hard it could keep their heads above water.
Doogle, there is your FG/Lab austerity whilst they look to insulate themselves.
If you had any doubts about their sincerity this is the nail in thier coffin come GE.
http://www.rte.ie/iu/pensions/ this is what people vote for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They get that others will get this http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-dole-and-welfare-payments-are-too-high-warns-imf-26877226.html
She’s only trying to make herself look good for the next election anyone that can’t see that is blind as a bat.
Absolutely disgusting!!
Just like the rain…ah! sure tis badly needed…..and if all else fails she can go and teach kids, 2+2 =???….
This is one of the reasons there’s such a deep seated hatred of politicians in this country. They contributed handsomely to the utter wrecking of this country.. No consequences for them to their actions and they walk off with these kind of vulgar sized pensions on my the absolute and genuine belief that they are worth every penny of it…said it before..they are 20 years behind the curve of public disgust toward them.
@Tony
I guess that I’ll get a shower of red thumbs for this but…. ah, what the hell!
Did the public-sector unions really think that TDs and senators wouldn’t get increases in salaries and pensions under the old benchmarking process and the upcoming deal? Members of the Oireachtas are part of the public sector, whether we like it or not. If you don’t like your TD then give your first preference to a different candidate in the next general election.
Ciaran…it doesn’t matter who I vote for..a politicians pay is the same no matter who receives it. No matter what anyone says its deeply disturbing that these people are rewarded to this level given their incompetence at their jobs.
I will I’m voting independent all the way
@Tony
Unlike many public-sector workers, TDs don’t have job security – they have to go before the people every five years to persuade people to vote for them.
Ciaran, in those 5 years they can save their salary and be made for life , mortgages paid in full etc. Do you honestly think that ministers pay a penny for going for dinner and drinks, claim everything from petrol to scratching their arses on expenses and then finish off on a generous pension for life. I wouldn’t mind it
Elected representatives should be on the average industrial wage so that they feel every austerity measure they advocate & legislate for. It really is that simple.
who needs job security with these pensions? as for persuading people to vote for them..they could comfortably live on half of what they get but their greedy snouts are always at the trough and I didn’t sanction these perks and pay rises they’re always out for no 1 …themselves!!!! ….get a grip a stupid statement!!!
Ciaran…they don’t need job security given what they receive in pay and pensions. A politician who has bled the country for any period of time will probably find him/herself on the board of some company in the private sector or the public sector. Whatever you cut it these parasites have their situation sown up.
Yes Ciaran you hit the nail on the head the country is crying out for change .I for one will not be voting for the parties that since the foundation of the state have lined their pockets at the expense of every body else. Very easy to introduce a water tax overnight so I can’t see any reason not to introduce a tax on politicians pensions or at least make sure they don’t get paid them till they are dead. It seems fair to me anyway
this is their choice
She looks as if she would be a very cross teacher…
@ Tony….almost everyone who works for a living have to have SOME form of a qualification bet a sorgeon, solicitor, plumber, bus driver, receptionist, or gets on the job training the TD on the other hand needs absolutely no qualification to get the job. Some are highly qualified to do other jobs, the reason there are so many teachers in the Dail are two fold plenty of free time to attend local functions (most finish at 3 to 4 pm and of course they are used to standing in front of an “audience” even if that is teaching kids the 12 times tables. Hence they end up chairing local meetings and groups!!!
Taking more money from the Tax Payer!!!!!
Former???? all you mean !!!! are they stupid to think there is ANY fairness here??
public sector pay deal- people giving themselves a raise-conflict of interest anyone?
Absolutely, here we go again gravy train rolls into town!!!
Our debt stands at over 100% of GDP and these clowns want a payrise – never – not till we have repaid our debt fully and once again have control of our sovereignty -and not have our budget debated and approved in the bundestag !
Until then they are just lackies and should be paid accordingly – and next party in power should have that written into the constitution via a referendum.
I seriously cannot believe this a real thing. How in the living F**K did somebody negotiate a pension increase for former ministers? Irish children are literally starving. Starving. What in the holy hell is going on?
@Jenny
If Irish children are starving then it’s because they have parents who are too lazy to cook for them or put the desire for alcohol, cigarettes or illegal drugs before the welfare of their children.
If you can’t afford to be a parent, don’t become a parent.
Can I see proof of the above statement please and where you these facts from
Mr masterson that is
@Nollaig
I’m giving the government the presumption of innocence with regard to its policies. Why don’t these parents take responsibility instead of blaming the government for their problems?
It’s obvious that many children are not eating properly because of the obesity crisis or because some parents are addicts or are too lazy to cook healthy food for them. If these parents cannot afford to bring up their children then they shouldn’t have become parents in the first place. Do you not think that personal responsibility is important?
Ciaran, you’re using an abuse case to prove that children in Ireland are only in poverty because their parents are lazy alcoholics or addicts. Well, here’s some recent CSO figures that would debunk that claim of yours;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/cso-report-exposes-frightening-scale-of-child-poverty-1.2074429
Here’s some more evidence;
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/child-poverty-a-national-scandal-314202.html
Will I continue or is that sufficient?
Jenny don’t be hasty…
A weekend away of sex will do you the world of good,Ciarán .
@VinHeffer89
But do the circumstances of the families referred to in the articles that you have linked constitute real poverty, i.e. as in Syria or sub-Saharan Africa? What is referred to as relative poverty isn’t necessarily real poverty.
Furthemore, Vin, it must be asked: Why do people become parents if they can’t afford to bring up children?
Some parents have no concept of personal responsibility.
What can I say, clearly I forgot to presume the innocence of governmental policy! I also forgot to presume that all hungry children had alcoholic drug addicted lazy parents.
@Jenny
Not all parents of hungry Irish children are addicts. Some are just too lazy to cook. Why people who seem unable to afford to bring up children become parents I honestly don’t know.
Okay; so if people living in poverty aren’t at the level of Sub-Saharan Africa or Syria, countries that have been ravaged by colonialism, disease, famine, drought and war, they’re not poor?
How are these children living in poverty in Ireland not victims of government policy, by the way? I gave that one a miss the first time around but I have to ask, given that you’re willing to “give government policy the benefit of the doubt”?
“The best small country in the world to do business in” that can’t even look after it’s own future generation, leaving 100K+ in poverty? How can you stand over that?
Also, yes, I’m all for personal responsibility but not everyone’s perfect, people make mistakes, no contraception is 100% foolproof, accidental and unintentional pregnancies happen; have done so in the past and will probably always happen.
To be honest with you man, I’m gonna leave it here with you. I gotta work soon and I’m go to get the first half of the hurling in before I leave. Frankly, you’re a bit of a callous tw@t really and I can’t be bothered dealing with you further.
Yeah everything that vin said. You’re happy to give the government the benefit of the doubt but not parents who’ve fallen on hard times. If people have made mistakes, they are paying for them now aren’t they. But not the likes of Harney or Aherne, no, they are actually going to get a top up! If you can’t see the gross social injustice in that you’re either callous in the extreme or wilfully stupid. Either way, you’re not worth my time.
@Vin
@Jenny
Children’s rights to life, education and bodily integrity are still protected by the Constitution and are still being upheld.
You’d have everyone believe that Ireland has gone back to the days of the Magdalene laundries. Well, it hasn’t.
how about some were parents when they lost their jobs and the government have put so much pressure on them with taxes and charges they can no longer afford to feed their children
So because things aren’t as bad as the 1950s under Protectionism and gross economic mismanagement, the thumb of the Church and the comely maidens dancing at the crossroads that means people aren’t poor? It’s not even me you’re arguing with at this stage, it’s the Central Statistics Office but you definitely know best anyway. Myopic gob$hite.
@Vin
The CSO didn’t look into the issue of whether or not some parents are making the right decision with regard to their children. Lone parents are still getting financial support from the State, it’s just not as much as it used to be.
I vehemently reject the accusation that you and Jenny have made that I am callous – or myopic.
I understand cases where one unplanned pregnancy takes place but two, three or four unplanned pregnancies?! That is carelessness.
Believe me, I’m not one of those Katie Hopkins-type individuals.
@Philip
Those parents still get financial support form the State, i.e. social welfare. If they are stuck with a mortgage upon losing their jobs, then they can move to smaller accommodation and get their debts wiped by having themselves declared bankrupt. In Ireland, there’s no such thing as being unable to feed your children, no matter what your difficulties are.
Ciarán, the CSO gives the figures. That is the data. You are just making baseless claims to account for the data, maybe based on your own anecdotal evidence. Just because you may have seen parents mismanage things, doesn’t mean that you have cracked the case.
Or do you have actual evidence to support your claim?
@ so punish the kids for their parents poor decision making?
theres always a nut in the house. ignore him.
@Kershie
Nobody is being punished. Social welfare is still there for the buying of food and drinking water. The single parents who I know have relatives who love them and support them.
“Single parents WHO I KNOW”.
The capitalised element of that sentence is where the fault truly lies. Your claims are based purely on anecdotal evidence; which doesn’t not stand up to data as collected by the CSO
€188 seems like a grand amount for someone who’s unemployed but not so when you factor in the cost rent, food and bills. And please, don’t start with rent allowance and medical cards; not everyone gets these. In terms of rent allowance you have to live somewhere within the threshold which varies from county to county. In my local area you have to be paying no more than €520 per month to qualify for it; let me assure you that you wouldn’t get anywhere for less than €550 and that €30 extra means you’re entitled to nothing in terms of rent allowance.
You seriously need to look beyond what you see yourself. That’s why I call you myopic; as in suffering from tunnel vision, aware only of what you see yourself. Ireland is a vastly unequal country. Just because we aren’t at the level of Sub-Saharan Africa in terms of poverty and deprivation doesn’t make this fact any less true.
@Vin
I don’t deny that cuts to social welfare have caused difficulties to ordinary people but, in fairness, the cuts that have taken place here are still smaller than those that have taken place in Greece (I guess that sub-Saharan Africa wasn’t a good example to use for making a contrast).
Are there still cases of unmarried mothers being disowned by their parents in Ireland? I acknowledge that I can’t rule out the possibility but there’s no evidence that it takes place.
Bertie Ahearn getting a pay rise for f@cking the Irish people up the hole and laughing at us struggling as he’s banging away
@Ben
Well, Bertie was Taoiseach for a long time because many of us voted for his party time and time again. We all knew that his government had dodgy policies, e.g. not reforming the health service after the formation of the HSE.
@ciaran even worse than that people elected ff back into power when some of them got locked up for dodgy dealings we are a terrible stupid people with a pencil and a ballot paper.
Unbelievable…
Animal Farm.
Two pensions bad, four pensions good
They really have no shame, do they..
That means Cowen’s pension is worth approx €3.4 million…i.e. That’s how much it would cost for a normal private sector individual to buy the equivalent pension. This country’s political system is a joke… Really hope this new alliance “party” make some radical changes.
Some of them should have been put in jail for treason, disgusting self serving vermin…..
Why can’t the powers that be introduce a 99% tax on all public sector pensions that are over 80k? At least that would be a start.
@robert For the same reason that turkeys wont vote for christmas…
Cut pension in half for starters after all Denis will pick up the shortfall!
more reasons to tell IW to go f***
cripple them
So the average working people continue to struggle and the people in charge and responsible for the depression of the last 5 years get a bump to their already inflated pension? It’s this kind of crap that lead to the recession in the first place. When is someone going to right these wrongs? We need to stand up for ourselves and stop these practices. The worst value for money in this country is the service we receive from our ministers.
Political pensions have to become an election issue..keep it to the front.
I know the overall amount compared to tax take is small..but its just the obscenity of massive lump sums..step down money..multiple pensions from the same pot..all paid for by taxpayers who are screwed by a myriad of direct and indirect taxes..I know SF promised to reduce ministers pay by 40% but the overall pay and expenses and pensions has to change.
Political pensions are on the exact same conditions as civil servant/state employees.It’s just political pensions get published. I’m sure if we started publishing the individual names of local teachers/council workers lump sums and pensions we’d get similar uproar.
I’m sick and tired of hearing all the excuses politions give for landing the people here with a disaster that’s going to follow us for generations unless this debt is dropped, and if anyone believes hanifan is talking for anyone other than herself then they’re deluded. we have some strange obsession with not holding the gov’t accountable for any of their actions, they’re dead wood as far as I’m concerned, to quote how they view us, low hanging fruit. that’s what you are to them.
So this week we saw thousands of lone parents losing much needed cash from their weekly payments and in the same week we hear that firmer ministers are due to get a pension rise? How could this ever be justified? Corrupt, self serving, out of touch, some of the words that come to mind here.
Agree totally Cathrine, morally bankrupt, that’s what they are.
How can Bertie get a pension without a bank account? Does he just show up at the dail every week with a sack with a dollar sign on it?
Sack with dollar sign on it in hand regardless
Beyond belief even by Irish standards!
And this come after the most insincere apology I ever seen from that traitor cowen. If there was a shred of remorse in his bones not only would he turn down this increase but he also return his present pension.
He also mumbled and fidgeted his way through the anglo questions, answering in a near whisper while staring at the desk in front of him, I’m no body language expert but he did look as if he feels the weight of that particular issue.
bully boy banging his fists, twiddling pens, pure guilt.
Very last? They shouldn’t be getting an increase at all
Isn’t ready “yet”. The pensions shouldn’t be increased full stop.
They made this Great Country of ours a MESS .
Now they want more € .
look at the mutton head on cowen,probably ates his pension
Unbelievable. Literally unbelievable.
And thats exactly why i’m not voting fg, labour and ff in the next election, and i’ll be encouraging everyone i know to do the same.
you are right make it an election issue that they work for the industrial wage and get a state pension when they reach pension age,
I’ll vote for and fully support any party or group who pledges to cut current and former politicans pensions by at least 50 percent after the next election, and sticks to persuing reversing what is a dispicable act from what are essentially a very poor performing bunch of politicians.
Any member of government past or present that defends this or accepts it whilst we have 1/3 of the country’s children in some form of poverty should be taken out and shot. ( NEVER ELECTED AGAIN)
This is unreal… The neck of these arrogant wasters.. They have no shame
I really dislike that woman.
We have lost control of our elected officials and we are effectively living in tyranny
This wasn’t really negotiated for former ministers, but for the soon to be former ministers
The big problem with government pensions is they are linked to civil service pensions, now if they were linked to unemployment payments ???
Election now let the people decide kenny
Would this spawn and her sort ever just f*ck off and die
We live in hope.
Cue lots of keyboard outrage but no willingness to demonstrate , we have been in austerity Ireland since 2008 and the only people to get off their holes to fight back are the water protesters, suck it up folks pay that USC and sit at home whining , these politicians are laughing up their sleeves at paddy.
mary love have you no morals to return to politics after being a leading light in the cabinet which distroyed this country keep your head down and enjoy your immoral pensions.
General election very urgently needed NOW to put an end to this corruption.
Hanafin only saying that because she lively going to try and get back on the gravy train at the next election
this government are definitely a vile disgusting greedy corrupt shower of animals , it’s sad special needs assistance cut ,a &e closing around the country , low gardai numbers , etc etc but just enough to give these pigs a rise
so the same week lone parents have their money savaged the politicians decide to further reward themselves. utterly sickening
the correct response mary is that tds are on ridiculously extravagant pensions for making an absolute shambles of the country. they should be given back to the taxpayer
Gene Kerrigan highlights a major part of the problem here but for a different reason:
“Nothing compelled his fellow politicians, the media or his party to ignore the fact that something bizarre had happened. But that’s what they did – and are still doing.”
Now we need two referendums one for water and one for politicans pensions.
Badly needed. Now they can fill thier trolleys and get a decent iphone…..
Take their pensions!
To be fair the public service unions insisted in pension levy being reduced They share the blame for this
I don’t think theres any law preventing her and anyone else who feels strongly about it from giving the money back, or indeed giving it to a worthy cause.
Worthy cause.like the CEO of one of their favorite Charities.
You got to love democracy….stop voting folks, the days of needing politicians are long gone.
Only in the magical fairyland that is the public service do retired personnel get “pay increases”
Hear they are again pissing down your back and telling you its raining.
FG\AIB Hooks
We should scrap pensions for politicians, it would encourage them to get a job………..sorry that script was written for single parent families and those struggling to survive.
We need a general election straight away, get these parasites out of Leinster house ,then get the place fumigated.
This beggars the mind. Baaaaaana Non Republic!
Hahaha not surprised. Two sides same coin fg ff lab. People are actually going to come on here and defend it to. Again the country is in depression and not recession and these lot want to shoulder the people with more debt
That must be were they are planning to get the money from the cuts to single mother payment the water and the cuts to the under 25 payment.
134000 rising to 136000 euro pension,no bad for a broke country
F*kin makes my blood boil
What an shameful present government we have in fg and labour. They really show their true colours, self serving parasites. As it is this current government that’s allowing these payrises. As hospitals are at breaking point , special needs cut all over the country. Along with numerous other cuts that have affected many. They decided they and former politicians who have brought this country to its knees and destroyed it deserve a payrise. It really boggles the mind what kind of mindset is running the country. Think we know . those that serve anyone but the Irish people. Always said I would never vote ff and now will gladly add fg and labour to that list.
People should remember that before Hannifin left office she increased the retirement age for us normal folk to 68,As for the pension top up it is an absolute disgrace these people are getting pensions nearly 4/5 times the average industrial wage.
They live of expenses while stuffing their bank accounts with their wage,I have never heard of a former TD/Minister broke.
Sure you just have to look at Noonan &frank 40 houses fahy 2 school teachers who became TD/Ministers,Would they be able to have such a big property portfolio as school teachers.
This is something S/F should be speaking up on .Rather than sprout out about Greece and other matters issues regarding other nations.
People being screwed by our so called rulers must unite to get a fair deal
Read Howlin trying to justify it saying there were deductions made under emergency legislation, and they had to be reversed. He claims that for that reason they could do nothing about it…seems there’s no problem with emergency legislation when it suits? surely a slight tweaking would stop these increases if they really wanted.
Send her an iphone gun?
just makes me so angry, frustrated, helpless, They just don’t give a flying fukk, stuffing their pockets while taking away the loan parent’s allowance in the same week. Father Ted couldn’t make it up.
the smell of fg on this page is rotten
take cash off loan parents and give to the rich in pensions.gravy train choo choo
Fair play to the Unions negotiating this pay deal for the public sector.
The tiger is purring again.
What tiger are you talking about you idiot? This country is drowning in debt and you think this is positive! Here’s another reson to vote out these traitors!
Troll
The USA is drowning in debt too. Should we shut that down as well and get your socialist utopia started?
“Shut down the USA” “socialist utopia” seriously what an idiotic comment you must have been drinking with biffo last night
Peaceful protesting is not working folks.
yes, time to get jobs instead and make your own wealth. The state isn’t coming to fill your pockets any time soon.
But filling politicans pockets is fine? Work for 5 years retire at 50 and be set for life.
Go away troll
Better run for election so.
One true voice if the truth gave you a kick in the balls you would think it was doing you a favour.
You should you spout enough shite anyway
you sound like real smart lads. watch you don’t trip over your knuckles.
Ah the old ones are the best
What a childish remark your parents must be proud!
The average nurse on €40k will get the same or less of an increase as a politician on pension and who said work work should pay. A bad deal for the average public servant .
There is no mystery to economics. These ministers talk about hindsight like economics was some great mystery. John Gilbraith wrote about these bubbles in his famous book about the 1929 stock market crash. The fact is Bertie, Hanafin and co are politicians first and foremost. They were carried on an economic wave they simply didn’t understand or want to understand.
The governments job is to govern.
They are the trustees of the economy. Across the nation we all go to work every day and we must take responsibility for the job we are entrusted to do.
Hanafin can’t shrug that responsibility.
“….or want to understand………” You hit the nail square on there Tom.
No public service pension above €40k should be increased before 2020 and thereafter only under €50k. Pensions over €80k should not be increased before 2025 and pensions over €100k should not be increased before 2030. It’s time senior civil servants and politicians a big, big, big, reality check.
nice way to deflect from the pay rise the current dail deputies will receive…….not a mention about their rise and you can bet they will take the increase
What a fckin joke! They get enough!
Irish taxpayers have contributed €65.MILLION in the past four years to the numerous of our “retired” ministers and TDs …self regulated by a totally serving government!!! This “PLUNDERING of the public purse with no accountability is manifestly wrong!!! When will some one say STOP???????????
Agh god no
I worked 28 years in a semi state body my pension now from it is €120 per week, those f******s get €2615 per week ,that’s 120 times the rate I get per week not bad for people that bled and swindled the people and made sure their rich friends were looked after . I rest my case your honour.
at least they could defer these ridiculous increases until these ‘buggers’ are really pensioners – like the rest of us (over 66)!
ah here, i seriously can’t believe what i’m reading here. are these with it at all? can someone please drop them all in the ocean, get rid of them. this is just taking the pi** and they know it. i’m surprised nobody has tried to do it already.
“oh we can’t go doing that now, increasing peoples wages, the economy is not ready yet”
no, course ye can’t cos ye are a weird breed under the elites hand now. i really really cannot stand these people anymore. sick of them. sick of yer greed. ye will increase your own trough years before doing anything for the people who put ye in there.
This is so frustrating.
We need to find a way to get an explanation for a decision like this from the current Taoiseach on television. Like if for 30 minutes a week, increases like this are blown up on to an enormous screen behind Enda Kenny an he has to publicly stand by it and approve it.
Otherwise, we’ll have a rant about it for a few days here and they’ll still get their pay rise.
It frustrates me to no end how little accountability there is. Our finances need to be run like a business.
Hanafin has 5 pensions
1 teachers, 2 TD, 3 Ministers, 4, widows and 5 councillors
Pigs the lot of them. How dare they even suggest this!
Load of bollox
have your say