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Updated at 11.23pm
FINGAL COUNTY COUNCIL has voted against proposals to hold a Dublin-wide vote on a directly-elected mayor for the city. It had been proposed a plebiscite be put to the people on 23 May.
The veto from the north Dublin authority means that’s now not set to go ahead — in spite of three other councils backing the move.
Dublin South voted in favour of a wider referendum earlier this afternoon, while last Monday Dublin City Council voted overwhelmingly in favour.
Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown also voted tonight, giving the plan a resounding ‘yes’ even though the proposal was already dead in the water following this afternoon’s developments.
The margin in Fingal was 16 against, 6 for and 2 abstentions (all 24 councillors were present for the vote).
In Dublin South, it was 19 in favour, three against, one abstention and three absent.
And in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown the final tally was 23 in favour, zero against.
Fingal
Heading into this afternoon’s meeting, signals had suggested the vote would be close — with the expectation the authority would only narrowly vote the proposal down.
From early in the session, however, a consensus became clear — with councillors from across the party divide arguing that there wasn’t enough detail on the plan being proposed and that 23 May was too soon for a public vote on the issue.
Some councillors argued that the north Dublin region would be left at a disadvantage should the plan for a directly-elected mayor be allowed to progress.
The meeting began at 3.30pm, with Fine Gael’s Mayor of Fingal Kieran Dennison — who has been one of the main opponents of the move — opening the debate.
Ruth Coppinger of the Socialist Party was one of the many members to argue that the proposal for the plebiscite was being rushed through, and that to date there had not been enough public debate.
Arguments
Ciarán Byrne of Labour said that while quotes attributed to him in the media appeared to suggest he was against a plebiscite, he was in fact simpy “against this structure for a plebiscite”.
“I am not in favour of this rushed proposal to fit it in with the local elections on May 23,” Byrne said.
For Fianna Fáil, Councillor Dara Butler said that while he was not against having a directly elected mayor, there were “too many unknowns”.
“As things stand I don’t think a yes vote is in favour of residents of Dublin,” Butler said.
We need to have proper debate on this [...] There’s not enough flesh on the bones. We really are giving Minister Hogan a blank cheque if we vote yes on this today.
‘Total lack of detail’
Butler’s Fianna Fáil colleague Eoghan O’Brien agreed there was “a total lack of detail” on the current proposals.
We’ve no detail on what a Minister for Environment would put before the people, if we were to pass this and if it were to be put to the people on 23 May.I can’t vote yes to an issue where we don’t have any detail as to what the long-term impact would be.
The Socialist Party’s Matt Waine described the plan for an ‘executive mayor’ as “a legacy issue from the previous government”
He said a yes vote from the council would effectively amount to giving ‘carte blanche’ to a future environment minister:
It’s like being asked to buy a second-hand car from a second-hand car salesman without being given a look at the car or at the log book until it’s too late.
‘No demand’
From Fine Gael, Tom O’Leary raised similar concerns to those of the earlier speakers, adding that there was no demand in the area for a vote on a directly-elected mayor. He said he had had 35 emails on the subject. In contrast, he had 365 on the issue of a taxi rank in Skerries.
As the debate continued, the consensus on the issue became more and more apparent — with several councillors saying their concerns had already been addressed by previous speakers
Ken Farrell of Labour said he was certain Fingal residents would be treated as “second -class citizens” if the plan went ahead.
Those for…
Cian O’Callaghan — a former Labour mayor of the authority, now an independent — spoke in favour of both the 23 May plebiscite and the current proposals for a directly-elected mayor.
He said a mayor with real powers could provide all areas of the city with advantages, particularly in the area of housing — where he said Dublin had been let down by central government.
O’Callaghan said Fingal had most to benefit from an overhaul of the system “because we’re the region with most potential for further development”.
As the debate entered its final stages, John Walsh of Labour said he believed the plan had been “set up to fail”.
Walsh said he believed Environment Minister Phil Hogan would be “celebrating with flutes of champagne, at the back of the Custom House” if the plan for a directly-elected mayor stalled “because we’ve let him off the hook”.
Votes
There was a short recess before a vote was taken and the motion for the 23 May plebiscite was defeated.
However, councillors voted overwhelmingly in favour of a motion to allow people to vote on a stand-alone plebiscite at a later date — after “sufficient time and debate” had taken place on “clear proposals” for a directly-elected mayor.
[Screengrab/Fingal Co Co]
Councillors were told their recommendation would be passed on to Environment Minister Phil Hogan.
However, according to a statement from the Minister’s Department:
The effect of the Fingal vote is that there will not now be a plebiscite at the time of the local elections in May on a proposal for an office of directly elected mayor across the 4 Dublin authorities constituting the Dublin Metropolitan Area.
Minister Hogan concluded “any further consideration of proposals for a directly elected mayor must take place after the local elections”:
I gave the opportunity to the elected members to develop a proposal for a plebiscite.They have not achieved a consensus, and further assessment of options must await the new councils to be elected in May.
According to Hogan:
The statutory requirement of a majority of the councillors in each of the four Dublin local authorities being required to support the plebiscite was high, as it was necessary to ensure that there was genuine political consensus amongst the members on their view on the best governance arrangements for the office of directly elected mayor for Dublin.
Dun Laoghaire
Councillors in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown went ahead with their vote this evening — even though the ballot was a dead rubber.
Fine Gael councillor Barry Ward’s hashtag summed up their decision:
Appeal
Lord Mayor of Dublin Oisín Quinn — a prominent supporter of the proposal — called on the Government to proceed with the plebiscite, in light of the fact that so many councillors are in favour of it across all the authorities.
With the clear majority of councillors across Dublin supporting the holding of a plebiscite, I believe the Government should now proceed to hold the vote and let Dubliners decide whether or not they want a directly elected mayor.It is wrong to allow a small number of Councillors principally on Fingal County Council to frustrate the democratic process largely out of an outdated desire to protect a perceived separate identity. Dublin and Fingal should not be in competition or seen to be in competition. No single group should be given a veto on reform.
First posted at 4.30pm.
Here come the trump types who spent the last few days here screeching their defence of the policy, only now they’ll claim their great leader was wise to want to end it.
@Chucky Arlaw: not the brightest bunch
@neilo: ahh so politican or leader has made a wrong judgement when it comes to a decision of regret. Got ya. ! Whoo thanks for clearing that up.
@neilo: whatabout the Dems, crooked Hillary, Obama, the emails!! Whatabout the EMAILLSSS!! Deep state, snowflake, make America great, Chinese Leberal hoax, fake news, conspiracy, deep state conspiracy, pizzagate, liberal hoax #alternate facts
@neilo: Still waiting on Mr. Fake Facebook send me your name, address, copy of passport clown “Joe Caulfeld” to come on, along with that wet behind the ears kid “Daniel Carson” and “Sleepy Eyes Chuck Todd” etc…
@neilo: Its thoroughly depressing to read the drivel spouted by them
@Mark Fitzmaurice: haha them, que( Darth Vader theme song).
@neilo: please look up The NY Times 2014/2015 same photos same reason. When a Parent is arrested the children cannot be taken into custody with them it’s a law that goes back to the 90s. Obama had it wrong also. If they go to a border post they will not be arrested and can claim asylum they will not be separated. They only get arrested When they cross illegally.
@james s: except when they get to a border post they are being turned away whether they seek asylum or not which leaves illegal entry or returning to whatever persuaded them to travel thousands of miles in perilous conditions. They have tried to do it the right way.
@james s: yea,all 11 MILLION of them
@neilo:
My basic point is Republican, Democrat, Trump, Obama there all the same.
@Dave O Keeffe: incorrect when you claim refugee status they have to process you. But unlike here it doesn’t take years. Most likely they’re not legitimate refugees that’s why they choose the illegal crossing
@james s: https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/563084/us-border-asylum/ stop lying child
This guy is out of control, strangely moving towards a dictator state.
How telling the only other foreign leader he gets on with is Kim. Who has his opponents (uncles) saveged to death by starving dogs.
The world should organise a boycott of American goods including movies untill they sort him out.
@Cathal Leonard: that wasn’t true about feeding the uncle to dogs and the boycott you describe will hurt the American people who are as bewildered by all of this as we are.
@Keith Fay: I know kim is cool a nice guy and we should just be nice to each other ahhhhh.
@Cathal Leonard: i think he’s a sc-mbag… but he still didn’t feed his uncle to dogs and you are wrong to call for a boycott of innocent americans
@Keith Fay: I guess you are all for removing the sanctions on Russia then, why should innocent Russians suffer for Putin’s actions?
@Zmeevo Libe: You know what, I have a lot of friends in Russia who are not complaining. You do know the difference between a boycott and a sanction? a sanction is usually aimed at affecting the government, a boycoot can affect governments too but also people, the man on the street. Some guy growing vegetables having his food boycotted because it comes from the US etc etc
@Cathal Leonard: should boycott you !
@Cathal Leonard: Humorous comment. How is America moving towards a dictator state. What institutions of democracy have been infringed here?
Very misleading headline. TDS…
Congress makes the laws this one was jointl made by both parties). Trump is choosing to enforce it (Obama decided not to). The Republicans are now going to change the law.
Btw, any “family” that walks up to a border crossing and asks for asylum will not be split up (but will be detained). It’s only those that get caught illegally crossing and then claim they are looking for asylum that are detained seperatly.
It was the very left wing 9th circuit that created this problem.
@neilo: I’m not sure if the last sentence is saying I’m lying? If so. Bad form. I just the facts.
Donald Trump is choosing to enforce the law. Obama choose not to. The President cannot make laws. Only Congress.
This is manufactured outrage.
@Fiasco99: Youre talking total BS there, stop trying to twist the facts in order to defend this Trumpian policy
@Fiasco99: yawn lies, lies, lies
@Fiasco99: FACT: families walk up to border crossings are being turned away regardless of what they say. FACT: That leaves families with the option of entering illegally or returning the the situation that was bad enough for them to need to walk thousands of miles to seek asylum in America. FACT: Arresting asylum seekers is a Trump/Sessions policy.
@neilo: well congratulations, you’ve won nothing ! He’ll still be president.
@Dave O Keeffe: fact, they are aware of the consequences, of being migrants an this might occur?
@neilo: thank you for knowing me, your so intellectual. Ohhh this is about popularity. Well sh#t
@neilo: notice how they always shoehorn Obama in there. Even though everybody knows he’s got nothing to do with this… Like Obama or not, he didn’t spend 8 whole years saying “Bush did it”.
@neilo: em, I don’t care because our opinion has now consequence at all.( I know there’s a radiohead song in their somewhere)
@neilo: sean Hannity, how did you know ? Ah shucks ! Well I guess my politcal identity is over now. Thank you for telling me who my media political hero’s are, on tv. You know me better than I do,
@neilo: as you would !
@Jonathan Byrne: fact, They are trying to do it the legal way and not being allowed to do that by border police. Fact, having a hit out on you as a cop in Mexico fighting a cartel is not grounds for asylum anymore because Sessions said so.
@neilo: do you do stand up? Because that’s hilarious,
@Fiasco99: erm , you are not helping – this shouldn’t be a partisan issue , a pro trump anti trump issue , it should be about how to treat people humanely under the circumstances regardless of the politics – it is not acceptable in this day and age to inflict misery by splitting families, especially the long term damage on the kids – building new tents and cages to manage that process which was in effect IMPOSED by this administration by their introduction of a new Zero tolerance policy – it is a policy not a law. The President has the power to change the policy not congress – – oh – and you are being an idiot.
@Dave Hammond: your name calling me for some fairly middle of the road comments that even the Democratic party were agreeing with as recent as 2014.
And I’m not being helpful?
Manufacturered outrage. And apparently you are out raged.
@Fiasco99: i wasn’t named calling you… i was pointing out your were an idiot… this idiotic policy and what you called the manufactured outrage has seen the administration to buckle and the President has announced he will sign an order to stop the separations ( as I predicted earlier today ) – but your pretty selfish and totally classless attitude to the problem is there for all to see in your comments. I am sure you are proud of yourself.
Too late. His Katrina moment has happened.
@DJ François:
I hope you are right, but I doubt it.
@DJ François: How many Katrina moment’s need to happen before someone sorts this horrific human out.
@Kevin Conway: How? If he gets toppled then Pence takes over by-default for ATLEAST 18 months.
Trump is a brash embarrassing mouth-piece but Pence; now that’s a man that would scare the colour out of Old’Scratch
@P.J. Nolan: No I agree this is a Katrina moment of sorts for Trump himself , how he handles major issues that resonate with people that can occur and cut thru the partisan politics can be pretty defining – it’s already been in the mainstream US news cycle for a few days that the quick fix would be for HIM to just pick up the phone , halt the new zero tolerance policy and then sort out – but he is JUST playing politics with it – they will put a band-aid fix in this week – but he missed the chance to be decisive and act like a President for all Americans this week -politically he chose to be partisan – blame the democrats for everything and rally his base instead – everyone knows he wants funding for his wall and is using tearing families apart as some sort of negotiating tactic – i think they will be punished in midterms in November and try hard as he may to claim HE fixed the mess at the border – the majority will only think he made the problem worse. Sad to see America in such moral decline.
The greatest President in the history of the United States.
@Mark Jones: ……was Barrack Obama…..
just finished your statement for you.
@Dotty Dunleary: Fake news
@Dotty Dunleary: I like Obama but Lincoln was probably the best……. I read Team of Rivals, at points I was like “they’re making this up, no way this guy was THIS good” but it was meticulously indexed and researched…..
So, I’d have to go with Lincoln if picking the best US President ever.
@Tricia G: Sure, Nixon was even better than the Trump and his child prisons..
@Mark Jones: I really wouldn’t go that far Mark, greatest since Reagan perhaps. No comparing him to presidents such as Lincoln, Washington or Calvin Coolidge.
@Tricia G: Agreed.
It won’t take long for Trump to congratulate himself over twitter for overturning Obama’s cruel immigration policy
@alphanautica: and rightly so
This is only starting to be a PR disaster? Says enough about Republicans. And the fact that they believe him is a joke. He could just turn around and withdraw his support and no one here would even blink. The man is pure evil.
@Deborah Behan: yes pure evil, gotta love those action catchphrases. If ya look up a history book say from the last century then there was actions of evil. In comparison to now, ya having a laugh.
@Deborah Behan: so now you’re worried about children …wow
@Joe O’riordan: children are born,ffs..
@Joe O’riordan: sounds like she’s a lot more worried than you.
“solve the border crisis and family separation issue by allowing for family detention and removal”.
Family detention means the kids will be placed in holding cells with adult and young males while being processed and waiting for removal. Is this really safer for the kids ? Would the Supreme court allow kids to be incarcerated in this manner ? The same people who opposed separation will now oppose incarceration.
Either way Trump closes the loophole. Fair play to him.
@neilo: Please post your real name with an open account so I can respond to your post.
@neilo: when one of your election backers are folks that will benefit the most from having these people locked up,then it’s best not to deport them straight away..
please don’t respond Joe
thanks
@Francis Mc Carthy: Which election backer benefits from locking them up?
@Joe Caulfield: Are you asking if putting families in supervised detention centres is better than creating thousands of unaccompanied minors and locking them in cages where they are forced to change the nappies of the infant children amongst them due to lack of care?
@Dave O Keeffe: Are you endorsing the incarceration of children in a zoo with potential pedophiles, drug traffickers, gang members etc ?
Do you think the Supreme Court will allow the incarceration of toddlers ?
@Francis Mc Carthy: Conspiracy theory .
@Joe Caulfield: are you avoiding answering a straight forward question? Hint: mass incarceration of toddlers is what this policy is, the supreme court are allowing it. The detention centres allow them to be with their families.n
@neilo: looks like you’ve been proven to be correct.oh well..
Liberals live babies being cut up and aborted from their mother’s womb and tossed into trash cans or dissected for stem cells. Cry because illegals cannot just march into the country without going through processing and rightfully being separated from their children temporarily after committing a crime, even though they KNEW THIS when they chose to come in, and could turn around at any point.
@Daniel Doran: The key to good trolling is adding some nuance so you’re not so obvious.
C-
Must try harder.
@Daniel Doran: The Democrats want to incarcerate the kids in large holding cells with adult males. Would it not be safer to place them in a separate situation while the parents are processed ?
@Kem Trayle: you would know from experience of course, or how would you know?
@Jonathan Byrne: If you’re going to back up a fellow troll you must use proper English, or at least try to make some sense.
I’ll give that a D- and that’s being generous.
@Kem Trayle: how about actually actually replying to my argument instead of sinking to ad hominem?
@Kem Trayle: thank you , general Grammer, without you I’d be lost understanding the meaning of something if I didn’t spell it right
@Joe Caulfield: why are you responding to a person that has a fake profile ? Is it because you are in agreement with him ? Ahhh,So that is how it works with you…bless
@Francis Mc Carthy: Didn’t see his account was closed. Don’t worry won’t be responding to him again. Just goes to show what a problem anonymity is on this site.
@Daniel Doran: yes , most of us reasonably intelligent adults can agree that the illegal immigration issue needs to be managed – many are not asking for them to be admitted to the US , just asking that they don’t split up the kids from the families as this newly introduced zero tolerance is doing – it is damaging and traumatising young kids thats all- they need to manage the problem differently…..which they will after this clusterfukk of a policy roll out , but seriously just saying that they could turn around at any point is completely missing the point. Seriously are u 12 or something ?
@Daniel Doran: when there’s a gun at the back of your head it’s probably best not to turn around. For some of these people even this separation is better than the alternative. Better doesn’t mean right though. Asylum seekers are being denied legal entry making illegal entry the only option.
@Daniel Doran: You didn’t make an argument, you just spouted the usual troll list of trigger words. Ad hominem is sometimes a valid response.
@Joe Caulfield: “the democrats want to incarcerate the kids in large holding cells with adult males” yeah, adult males aka dad
Liberals you say United States is horrible place, horrible health care, “Nazi” leader, concentration camps… a oppressive horrible regime… if this is the case why do immigrants risk life and freedom, AND their children’s lives and freedom to get in?
If it is so horrible, why do they go there?
@Daniel Doran: because compared to the dangers and conditions they are fleeing it is infinitely better. Idiot.
@Daniel Doran: many are fleeing the very things Trump claims they are bringing. Did you know that death threats from cartels are no longer grounds for asylum in America? Even if you’re a cop in the area the cartel are operating.
@Daniel Doran: yeah an a lot of same agree with his and American stance on Palestinian border issues. Hypocrites
Just like with DPRK, trump saves us from a disaster of his own making, and were supposed to be grateful. Plato’s democratic paradox – idiots can vote. What ruinous games are next up? US/UK have lost international credibility with outright lies to their people, serving only the wealthiest, turning the gullible majority against the minority. NATO’s next..whilst Putin builds his Rusasia. We need a JFK to unite the centrists, and yes he wasn’t perfect but leagues above these fools.
@General Info: the only person I know with that type of psudeo intellect with politics, would be karl Marx.
Making besties with a murderous dictator.
Insults the PM of his closest neighbor.
Puts innocent children into cages away from their families and says its for their own good.
Now he’s after pulling out of the UN Human Rights Council.
Whats next?
@Stephen Deegan: next is more support for Israel
@Stephen Deegan: i hate to think how far this mentally unstable maniac could go if left unchecked.
Yeh ! Sure why not. I could name a worse one and a better one, depending on your perception of what makes the best President.
@Jonathan Byrne: One that doesnt lie, alienate all his countries allies, and make a complete fool of himself constantly would be a start
@Dave Harris: we should all know by now that the American people don’t vote for those types.
@Dave Harris: james Buchanan, Richard Nixon, Gerald ford, the list goes on.
United States of America:
Land of internment camps.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/06/20/pers-j20.html
Ah yeah tis terrible at Mexican border but a ok at Palestinian borders.
The Democrats won’t support either bill…
@Dumb as a Rock Mika: you know republicans have control, right? They don’t need the democrats support.
Good to hear he’s taking steps to end this unethical policy. It’s up to the legislature now.
@Daniel Carson: no it’s not,it never was. It was a policy change. They closed the legal entry points making asylum impossible.
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