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I don’t think the majority have any issue paying for water. It’s paying for it 2 or 3 times where the problem is.
And to be expected to pay for a super quango like Irish Water that irks people. Inflated wages, guaranteed bonuses and a model where it costs to collect payments what they would receive in payments.
@Ricky… I think it’s fair to apportion blame to the EU for imposing the directive to begin with. This kind of interference in the governance of independent member states is not what the EU was originally (ostensibly) intended for. They continue to undemocratically breach their remit; this is partly the reason the Brits voted to leave abd why anti-EU sentiment is on the rise across the continent..
Ff fg and liebour have really sold us down the tubes that bank bailout is going to come back and haunt you sellouts.I want out to amd I want a united Ireland now
The Netherlands and many eu countries if not all pay water charges for donkey’s years… Why should Ireland be omitted for paying for water… It is after all a service… Water is sanitized and pumped to your house/workplace… Please tell me why should this service be free? Who do you think will pay for this?
Irish water has always been subsidised by the public purse, it has even been shown to fail all assessments by EU as a fully funded entity by charges alone, so therefore it always has been and is still the established practice to be paid for from general taxation. Who do they think they are fooling????
Because Simone in Ireland we already pay for water through taxation, so why should we pay twice. IW is nout more than a quango that will be sold off to somebody like Dennis o Brian for buttons then the rates will be hiked up. If water charges are dictated by the EU then why was the taxation stopped & semi state owned body protected by the constitution (like the post office for instance) created instead. The EU blanket laws should be scraped as they have little effect on a continent as such diverse as Europe, I hope this clarifies this for you somewhat.
You might be happy paying for water more than once, Simone, but I along with many others in this country are not happy with doing that. Good luck to you.
@richard thanks for your clear detailed response. Is it transparent that it is included in the general taxation? I know it is difficult to compare Ireland to the nl but in the nl we pay high taxation 49-52% and in addition pay city taxes, property tax as well as water charges. The Dutch are not going out on protests over this… I’m just curious as to why this is such a problem in Ireland when other countries have been paying high taxes and charges for years…
Simone you go into a bar & order a beer & you pay for it, then just before you take a sip you are charged again. We just don’t like being taken advantage of, simple as.
Have you seen how many taxes are on our payslips Simone??. If you did you would understand how pissed off we are being ripped off in this country. Then we have VRT of thousands on new cars. Petrol is actually three times the cost of it per gallon because of another tax.
Before the FF government decided to throw out the waiver we received from the EU which exempted us from water charges (seriously lads, did you read the article, it’s in black & white that the EU is now simply saying we no longer have that exemption because our own TDs threw it away, nothing’s stopping Enda & Co negotiating another…if they wanted to) a portion of several Irish taxation systems were ring fenced for the provision of services and maintenance to water infrastructure. This set up was the reason we received the exemption in the first place.
Now we’re being told that we have to pay directly because the system needs major overhaul. Well we were all paying those taxes, so it wasn’t on our end that the money wasn’t going to water infrastructure. Someone, somewhere wasn’t using that tax money for its legislated purpose. But instead of heads rolling in the Dáil the only answer our incompetent, tax-grubbing politicians can come up with is to make us pay for it…again.
Bryan – can you or someone produce evidence \ signed document from 2010? FG/LAB didn’t re-apply. Look at Kelly – he took on that portfolio as he had an agenda.
I might be a tad naive to be taking the EU/Article’s word for that one alright, but in fairness…go google it yourself.
Honestly I don’t care which government did it. Fact is: It was IRISH TDs who threw away the exemption. It was IRISH TDs & Councils who didn’t use the taxes for their legally mandated purpose. And if they didn’t…if all that money actually went 100% on Easter infrastructure, the it was still IRISH politicians who clearly paid good money to IRISH contractors who did such a dodgy job were now told the system is 100 years old.
But look at all the people blaming Europe for this. Folks…this is exactly what Farage et al did in the UK. Deflect attention from the homegrown politicians & bankers who were the real ones to screw us over, and look, it worked. Kenny got back in and there’s still Bertie supporters, while the UK just shot itself in the foot.
The EU didn’t force water charges on us, our own did. And they did it with the fervour of a rabid pit bull if you haven’t forgotten the arrogant, threatening, and condescending way our elected representatives reacted to water protests with nothing but utter scorn and contempt until it finally dawned on them just how big it was.
I know there’s this Omar of the EU as this draconian figure forcing edicts on the less powerful members. Our government ignored a human rights directive from them for 20 YEARS. If water charges become reality, it’ll be because our government wants them.
I got called ‘right’ earlier, and now I’m being thanked?
What’s happened to the Journal’s comments section?
Just kidding. The whole thing’s got more than a couple of legal thingies attached to it, and there’s a lot of emotion behind the whole thing since the water charges were basically the last straw at the end of years of austerity. There’s lots of reasons to be angry over it, and it took me quite a while to figure it in my own head what the overall “problem” was and put it in words.
It’s a touchy subject (apparently even more so from the euro-sceptic crowd since the Brexit).
water is essential for life. It should be free. food is essential for life. It should be free. let’s nationalise tesco. why should limey capitalists make money on our need for food?
@simone water tax or ring-fenced revenue was brought in by legislation in the nineties when Vat and Motor tax was hiked to cover investment infrastructure in water, to answer you question. So legislative provision is there. In fareness, all we are asking for really is constitutional protection that such infrastructure doesn’t become the cash cow of any corporate, we’ve seen to much of what corporates do in monopolising.
Yes Niall, Britain is leaving because FF screwed up the application and tried to blame the EU. That must be it. Not the 20 of lies and propaganda by newspapers and media owned by people who aren’t even British.
Daffy appears not to understand how these directives are created and applied. Remember, our government helped draft and stood behind this directive as being good for the community as a whole. They then applied for special treatment but failed to renew properly. The good news is that the people to blame are your own representatives and you can punish them. How FF are so popular I’ll never know.
It’s a reasonable question. We just don’t like paying twice Simone. And it has NOTHING to do with the EU. This is Ireland’s own political class trying to get one over on the public.
There’s nothing wrong with this directive Richard. It’s there as part of a proper conservation plan and our own govt. would have had input. I do agree that this quango is a corrupt attempt at privatisation of a public resource an IW should abolished however.
We already pay through taxes!!! When my water goes back to tasting as nice as it did before the metres went in, then I MIGHT consider a moderate payment to cover 100% clean drinkable tap water!!!!
No problem with my understanding Danny. Just because our corrupt home-grown patasites were complicit with the EU diktat doesn’t relieve the EU of any responsibility. The fact remains, this is an EU directive without which the issue of direct water charges would never have arisen.
Nobody is against paying for a vital public service. That’s just crazy. It’s just that nobody wants to pay for something that’s already being paid for. I will certainly accept that there is a need for a radical overhaul of the water infrastructure to cope with increased demand and to replace archaic pipes etc. However, the underhand nature of the Tendering system along with bonuses for the top people of a private company being paid by public funds is indecent and criminal.
That is what people cannot abide
@terry thanks for this. Many ppl can’t explain what you just did and instead hurl abuse and aggression.
Having read many comments on here and in previous water charges related articles, it seems some Irish realise how things work and make valid arguments while others have no clue and rehash what they have heard from someone else or even worse demand santized water is a given right and should be free!!
Well well imagine now that it’s FF who started the whole thing off. And there you have Barry Cowan going around as if butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth when it was his traitor of a brother that set the wheels in motion.
What Barry Cowan forgets is that rural communitties have been and still are paying for their water through group water schemes. Suggesting that water could be payed through general taxation when a quarter of the country doesn’t pay tax is absurd.
@lavbeer. Corrupt and all as Bertie Ahern was how would he have negotiated any exception. He was gone by 2008 and the plan was submitted to the EU in 2010.
I did watch that Brexit the movie and was just astonished by what I saw and heard.
I now truly understand why the vote to exit. It is a must for viewing
Absolute rubbish. Doesn’t matter that FF introduced charges,they did so recently. So the “established practice” was clearly general taxation. The exemption Bertie got still applies , cos it was never rescinded. The government should challenge this absurd ruling or face the call for an Eirexit.
Correct….I just heard on RTE radio that it’s up to the Government to declare to the EU what is ‘established practice’ in relation to the payment for water….ball is now in the Government’s court…not the EU’s.
FF completely agreed to implement article 9 of the framework which sets out the provision of paying for water, as such Vella is saying you cannot agree to an article and then roll-back on it, he even goes so far as to saying Ireland could have been fined for not implementing charges sooner, this article is misleading, it has nothing to do really with ‘established practice’ and all to do with FF agreeing to implement article 9 in 2010, an agreement that is irreversible once committed to
If they signed up to something like that then they will no doubt produce the documented evidence surely and MM will look a complete fool. Not that both actions are mutually exclusive.
There are also more documents related to the unconditional signing up to article 9 there. It seems FF has committed to this and there is legally no rowing back as it stands
That’s an out of date website with a proposed draft plan (recommends IE7).
Enda would be projecting any signed document into the Dublin sky if it existed. I doesn’t.
Vella has just reiterated the point that when the WFD was put in place in 2000 Ireland were exempt from water charges but FF in the RBMP of 2010 agreed to implement charges
And the evidence ? Someone signed a document surely? If FG can produce a document signed by a FF minister – wow that would be some scoop. Opinions is all we get.
Be careful what you wish for Pat. If Ireland were to leave the EU we would be worse off than Britain and with some hefty debts to be paid while companies would go out of busisiness.
This is not a ruling, it is an answer to a parliamentary question. A question that could have been easily avoided entirely by our own representatives if they were looking after our interests properly.
It’s that type of arrogant attitude that makes me wonder if we should be following Britain out. I’m getting tired of being micromanaged by European bureaucrats.
Leaving would have fcuk all to do with water and for to do with the likes of TTIP and the hundreds of unelected bureaucrats that are trying to Americanise our little island.
What arrogance? He answered a question honestly. FF screwed you over by not managing your interests properly AGAIN. Please remember this for the next election.
FG /FF /LIEBOUR are doing a great job on getting a majority worked up on Irexit by blaming Europe on insisting on this bankers tax. Won’t be paid by the majority and now the majority would vote for Irexit. These planks need to go. Election please…
We probably are the wettest country in Europe. No other country had our rainfall and water supply. There is pretty much zero chance of drought here. Yet again European fat cat politicians who never set foot in Ireland dictating to us and they wonder why people want out!
Sorry Vincent, they’re not dictating, they are answering a legal question correctly. FF screwed you again and pointed the finger elsewhere – you should be used to it by now.
Enda can fix this having a referendum not to allow private ownership and by campaigning against it. Then we start to work to get value for money. We know that can’t happen though.
“EUROPEAN political chiefs are to take advantage of Brexit by unveiling their long-held plan to morph the continent’s countries into one GIANT SUPERSTATE, it has emerged today..
..The foreign ministers of France and Germany are due to reveal a blueprint to effectively do away with individual member states in what is being described as an “ultimatum”. Under the radical proposals EU countries will lose the right to have their own army, criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels.
..Controversially member states would also lose what few controls they have left over their own borders, including the procedure for admitting and relocating refugees. The plot has sparked fury and panic in Poland – a traditional ally of Britain in the fight against federalism – after being leaked to Polish news channel TVP Info.”
Ollie do you mean not a f@#king chance Enda will allow that happen? Because that unfortunately is the person who is meant to protect Ireland and her citizens…….
Our eu overlords now know that their super right wing state project can still be toppled by ordinary democratic underlings ….don’t need that excuse of person to protect , sin fein a deanamh e , we ourselves will do it
Kenny &co have spent €670k in legal fees to protect the generous tax concessions of Apple ……..
.would he spend the same to challange the water charges ?? Or is it a matter of priorities????
Why not re-establish the practice? Then isn’t it the new ‘established practice’? And the word ‘established’ to me sounds as though someone would have to be doing it for a long period of time? An established teacher, an established doctor etc.
We’ll need to quadruple the water charge when all the MNCs leave in order to be HQ’d in Europe and we’ve a massive crash in GDP and tax income.
But it would be worth it just to prove a point.
Well the Irish people who refuse to pay this ain’t going nowhere either, and this is the reason why Britain left the EU. (Brussels dictating Ireland what to do).
Those who were harping on at the “stupid dumb brits” are now complaining about “muh sovereignty”. This is why they left, the EU doesn’t recognise sovereignty.
On the bright side the EU released plans to make Berlin and Paris the quasi capitals of the EU, pulling out Belgium, today. They also threatened Poland and other central European nations to comply with refugee quotas “or else” and said they will be preventing the union from collapsing at “all costs” tell me again about our dumb neighbours? Seems they got out in the nick of time.
Sorry, pulling out of Belgium isnt confirmed. But one can assume that creating two quasi capitals means that Belgium can kiss its EU parliament goodbye. I guess they dont like the fact they are almost bombed every other day because of the mess they carved out of belguim
The the eu is going somwhere, just not somewhere good.
They seem to want a federal union, jean-claude juncker, the main (of 5) eu president(s) openly despises democracy and wants a eu superstate and army. Scroll through his twitter. Its scary.
If they try federalisation I guarantee civil war, main land Europe, particularly France and Belgium are quite unstable since November and Sweden and Germany are heading that way.
EU directives are binding. Article 9 of the water framework directive requires charging for domestic water. There is one exemption. It is known within the European Commission as the “Irish Exemption” because it was won by the Irish and only Ireland qualifies for it. It is found in article 9.4 of the directive.
In 2000, the Irish government brokered this exemption and the inclusion of article 9.4 which formally and legally absolves Ireland and only Ireland from the requirement to charge for domestic water.
So… any wonder why UK voted to leave. How is IW got anything to do with Immigration then? Nothing and there’s far more reasons to leave as well.
Best thing we could do is campaign for a referendum to leave the EU and trade with Britain. F**k the rest of them. We don’t want their stinky fat sausages and cheese. We have plenty of good agri here, if not the best.
If they can make a rule well then what’s to stop them unmaking it. We are being bullied by the EU and that’s exactly why the English wanted out. It’s an undemocratic institution robbing us of our sovereignty. All vestiges of solidarity are gone within the eu when it comes to helping out member states. They’ve made a fortune from us plus interest and for what. High unemployment and debt levels that are eye-watering.
Sorry Aoife, this directive would have been drafted along with the Irish govt for conservation reasons. We then negotiated an exemption. FF did not renew the exemption. The EU is bullying no one here, merely answering a question. Nothing else in your statement is factual, but it does sound like you watch Sky news and read The Mirror.
Maybe we should follow the UK’s lead? Bit sick at this stage to be told you pay and pay again by faceless bureaucrats sitting Europe with no connection to the land I live in……
Because it’s quite possibly the stupidest thing in history. They’re economy is headed down the toilet and the UK as you know it may not exist any more. Putin has had to be given a sedative because he hasn’t been able stop laughing since Friday morning.
Why is everything such a fuss! Set it up properly, no one gets to own it or make money from it, get someone with a bit of cop on to be in charge of where the money goes, reduce something somewhere else where were told we were paying already. Fixed! I really wonder about the people who are in charge of stuff.
On 28 July 2010, through Resolution 64/292, the United Nations General Assembly explicitly recognized the human right to water and sanitation and acknowledged that clean drinking water and sanitation are essential to the realisation of all human rights.
That said, it’s not so much paying for water that is the problem. It’s the fact that EU’s agenda is to privatise all water throughout the EEA. That can never be allowed to happen.
Our government has so far refused to add such guarantees and protection through legislation. That is unacceptable.
My solution to this is. 1. Abolish the funding for water from motor tax and the 2% from Vat. 2. Enshrine our water system and the water in the Constitution to prevent it been sold. 3. Put an annual charge of €100 in place.
2010, FF sold us out to save French and German banks who went bankrupt lending to Anglo without any regulation only a childish idea that bankers would but on the green jersey to protect the ecomony. A debt that makes family’s homeless weekly, more taxes are needed but never spent on services and a health service that Is being prepared for privatising. It does as little as possible using layer after layer of managers to protect the minister. We could afford to pay five times for water if we still were not still paying for PMPA or the first bank bailout or Quinn insurance or army’s of lawyers defending Apple. We can’t just keep paying for protected peoples mistakes at some stage something gotta give and Europe must as some stage realise that. With 0.004% of Europes population but 44% of the debt bailing out a banking sector that has never recovered. We are in a worst state now than in 2008 with politics morphed into a single pool working against taxpayers. it’s Germany that should be leaving the European Union not the United Kingdom.
Then test the resolve of the EU to override the democratic will of the electorate.
In effect, the obstinacy and the hardline approach of the EU gave the UK the push to get out of the EU. Let’s see if the EU can learn from past errors.
Patrick Gough, where the hell are you getting this “2 euro a week ” from? That would make it 104 euro p.a. If people had just accept this charge, we would be paying hundreds of euro’s p.a. not €104 The only reason your not is thanks to the protesters & people that are prepared to look after our water & not allow it into private hands!
If you don’t know what you’re talking about and can’t be bothered to read the article do really expect anybody to be interested in what you have to say Maureen?
Why are people so worked up over water charges? We are getting a hell of a lot more fleeced over USC. To the tune of €20+ a week.
Where are the protests there?
If we don’t pay we’ll be kicked out of the EU. This will lead to the breakup of the EU and eventually to war. I can see a historian of the future giving a lecture on the causes of world wars ww1 assassination of the arch Duke ferdinard ww2 nazi expansionism ww3 ireland refusing to pay 2 euros a week
Enough with the €2 a week,
You and I know that is not true,
Even if it were true after the guaranteed privatisation it will never be true, so stop the BS
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