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CAMPAIGNERS FOR REDRESS for mica-affected homeowners have been protesting outside Leinster House for weeks.
They have even brought their campaign to New York while Taoiseach Micheál Martin was there on UN duty last week.
Now, the government has received a report from the working group which has been examining the mica issue and the options for redress.
Minister for Housing Darragh O’Brien is set to examine the report with a view to bringing proposals to Cabinet next week or the following week.
It remains to be seen whether the proposals will be the beginning of the resolution for the homeowners, with campaigners nonetheless planning a large protest in Dublin on 8 October.
So where are we on what campaigners want and what is the government saying?
The Mica controversy explained (again)
In June, we published a separate explainer outlining what the controversy is all about and what was happening with the affected homes.
What it boils down to is the presence of a natural mineral, muscovite mica, in the concrete blocks used to build homes.
The presence of mica absorbs moisture, weakens the concrete and causes the cracked and crumbling homes you are likely familiar with from news reports.
We don’t yet have a definitive figure on how many homes are affected but previous estimates have said that there may be 5,000 to 6,000, primarily in Mayo and Donegal.
Local authorities from Sligo, Clare, Limerick and Tipperary have also been engaging with the existing Defective Concrete Blocks Grant Scheme suggesting the number is larger.
Four years ago, an Expert Panel on concrete blocks in counties Donegal and Mayo examined the issue.
Among its findings were that there is a statutory limit on the amount of mica in concrete blocks and that no company should place products on the market unless they adhere to regulations.
The report also found, however, that building control authorities did not have the technical resources in-house to test construction products which may have been non-compliant.
In addition, the panel did not consider it was reasonable to expect that the building control authorities could have prevented the problem from occurring.
What about the builders?
One of the issues is that any legal recourse for homeowners would be incredibly complicated due to the various parties involved along the line.
From builders, to brick supplier, to the quarry, fault could be incredibly difficult to find and prove.
Speaking today on RTÉ’s News at One, president of the Construction Industry Federation Tom Parlon said that builders can only use the product they are supplied with.
Builders who build homes they buy products, for example blocks are one of the most basic ones. And they expect that those blocks are fit for purpose. In this particular case that wasn’t the case. The mica is a regional issue it was largely in north Donegal but generally a builder depends on getting product that is fit for purpose.Normally to have a CE mark, or other certification, they all have that now and you’re obliged through all your paperwork that every item that you put into a house or any construction project is fully certified. But that wasn’t the case at the time, the builders depended on buying good quality stuff that was fit for purpose and they weren’t to know at that time either.
Regardless of the route legal recourse could take, any case would take far too long for homeowners who are living in a crumbling home.
100% redress
Campaigners argue that, regardless of where the fault lies, they are clearly not the ones at fault.
Instead they argue that there was a lack of regulation and enforcement of existing regulations and that the State bears ultimate responsibility for this.
They therefore argue that the government, and by extension the exchequer, should foot the bill for a complete repair or rebuild of the defective homes.
Whether the State can subsequently seek to recoup some of this expense either through legal means or another method, such as construction levies, is a question for a later date.
“We’re doing a lot of work in this space in relation to what legal recourse we’d have against those responsible. I don’t have that detail yet,” Housing Minister Darragh O’Brien said yesterday.
Defective scheme
After a long campaign by impacted homeowners, the Defective Block Scheme was opened for applications in June 2020.
It has five options ranging from external wall replacement (€49,500) to full demolition and rebuild (€247,500). The scheme allows owners to claim up to 90% of the cost up to those limits.
The affected homeowners have argued that in many cases the upper limit would not cover the cost of demolition, planning and rebuilding and that they would be on the hook for 10% regardless.
Homeowners would also be required to to pay €5,000 for a mica test in order to apply for the grant scheme and that this would be a barrier to some struggling families.
Enhanced
In addition to the costs associated with actually rebuilding their home, families have said there would be additional costs incurred on them, such a renting a home while their house was being repaired or rebuilt.
For these reasons, the campaign has continued and government TDs from affected areas have been among those to lobby on behalf of a new scheme.
There has even been acknowledgement from ministers that the previous scheme was insufficient.
Last week, for example, Tánaiste Leo Varadkar said the previously announced scheme “isn’t adequate” and needs to be “enhanced”. Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe used similar language today, saying that any new government scheme needed to be “more comprehensive”.
The minister in charge of the issue, Housing Minister Darragh O’Brien, last night said that there needed to be “enhancements to the scheme” as the current one “is not working as originally intended”.
O’Brien is to take delivery of the report this evening that is compiled by the Defective Concrete Block Working Group.
The working group includes department officials, mica action group representatives and local authority representatives. O’Brien has acknowledged that there have been “difficult meetings” between homeowners and department officials.
Speaking yesterday, the minister said there has already been a commitment of €1.5 billion from the public purse and that any enhanced scheme will come “with enhanced cost”.
“There is a monetary cost here that we have to be aware of that can’t be ignored,” he said.
O’Brien has however been reluctant to state publicly whether there should be a cap on the scheme.
Over the past 24 hours there have been suggestions that redress could be capped at €350,000 per homeowner.
This “kite flying” has been criticised by Mica campaign spokesperson Michael Doherty, who told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland today that he would be “very, very concerned” if this was the cap placed on any redress scheme.
Doherty said that such a proposal would “go down like a lead balloon” because it would not provide 100% redress to some 40% of affected homeowners.
“We have already worked out through the SCSI calculator what it costs to replace the homes that we’ve got, there’s about €40,000 alone of mica-affected costs,” he said.
“That’s in regards to testing, to planning permissions, to the rental accommodation that’s needed temporarily and so on. There’s €40,000 that’s lost to that alone, non-value added to the homeowner. We’ve been through these figures, these are not high end finishes, these are the absolute basic finishes that are allowed for in that calculator, and the numbers come out that €350,000 will be 40% of our people behind, which is just not an acceptable position.”
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Why are we so interested in Hungarian education policy?? Why don’t we sort out our own issues.. children’s hospital, housing crisis, hospital waiting list, reopening the country and then start pointing fingers… or is this just a distraction from what a bad job they are doing
@Padjo Mulk: Where was/is the moral bravery needed by our government to tackle the homelessness crisis and rid us of the vultures/ cuckoo’s? Coveney and Co jumping on a populist bandwagon, “hey, look over there”.
@Padjo Mulk: Becasue its wrong. Because its all over Europe right now. Just becasue we have problems here, doesnt meant we ignore human rights violations, unjustice and bigotry elswhere in the world. We either have moral standards or we dont. And we a people voted by a huge majority to give equal rights to all citizens, and stand up for those rights in the face of those who would deny them. So yes, we should voice our discontent whenever we can, against the type of behaviour the Hungarian government are showing.
@Barry Sorensen: what about financial equality? Should the 99% be on par with the 1%. I wonder if that was solved would it have a positive impact on other forms of equilty.
@Padjo Mulk: the subtlety of deflection almost caught me too. The irony is that tou comment is just a distraction from the from the subject matter of the article – human rights in Hungry -
@Will: we all have the same rights when born, and opportunities to educate and earn are equal. There is nothing in the state laws that prevents anyone joining the 1% – and Robin Hood is long gone and replaced by social welfare which takes from those with more and gives to those with less. This policy many agree with and there is no law that prevents anyone joining the 1% and every effort is made to ensure equal opportunity to all.
@Will: Two very different issues. Human rights – the right to exist in a free society, free from bigotry, feee from persequetion, the freedom not to be denied existence or understanding through education – is very different from having everyone on a financial par. I assume you are not suggesting that eveyone has the same take home pay nomatter what they do? That will never happen.
Basic human rights should not be a political football in any country.
@Niall Ó Cofaigh: well yes what you are saying is correct to some degree. I’m of the view the game is rigged and the 1% never loose. That’s been very evident in times of financial hardship.
@Padjo Mulk: we can do both. It’s called multitasking. Less of the whataboutery.
@Barry Sorensen: they are ignoring the rights of the Irish citizens but that’s OK
@Mark Behan: No, but that doesnt mean we hide away in a box and ignore the outside world either. We are not putting funds into fixing Hunagarian law. We are speaking out against what we believe is wrong.
@Padjo Mulk: why are you saying that we can’t be interested, have an opinion or care about the wrongs all over the world. What is wrong with you? Go out and do something about it instead of being a Karen here in the journal. Cop on to yourself.
@Padjo Mulk:
Don’t think we should remain silent when people are targeted, oppressed and segregated based on a sexual orientation.
Sexuality is a global human trait and is as diverse as the racial ethnicities on this planet.
@Barry Sorensen: well that would be pure equality if all were paid the same regardless of what they do. Perhaps this is the way it will be in the future for the 99%. Right now we have various groups fighting for equality and I just wonder if this will create such division that in 20 years rights will not exist and we all will be kept humans. Technology is playing a key role in this of course. I don’t know but my opinion is that this is being carefully guided behind the scenes. Anyways who knows what the future will bring.
@Padjo Mulk: Because I don’t intend to pay my taxes to the EU so someone somewhere on the continent can make another apartheid for my money!
@Padjo Mulk: it’s possible to show interest in more than one issue at a time.
@Barry Sorensen: well said
@Padjo Mulk: Hungary is a sovereign state and entitled to pass its own laws to deal with what is a tricky situation. It cannot contravene E U law but that remains to be seen. . While i agree that our leaders might be seen to be hypocritical they see this as a no lose position and our health service etc is not relevant to this issue
@Padjo Mulk: Ah look. A fake account engaging in whataboutery. Of course it’s not homophobic at all. At least these types know to keep hidden. The day they do this openly will be the wake up call
@Barry Sorensen: Well put Barry. I totally agree!
@Terry O Sullivan: a tricky situation?
@Padjo Mulk: Of course it’s not a matter of one or the other. They can do all the things you listed and they are doing them. The vaccine progamme is going very well. Housing is the big one but they are working on it.
Hungary needs to be called out. The EU has standards that must be upheld.
@Elaine Phelan: yes not straight forward. Have a look at the book /the madness of crowds/ by Douglas Murray, who is gay
@Terry O Sullivan: the suppression of human rights is “a tricky situation”? It’s very interesting that a book about The Madness of Crowds written by a right wing provocateur doesn’t have a single mention of the far right in it but instead has four subjects; Gay, Gender, Race, and Trans. Surely just a coincidence, surely.
@Dave O’Keeffe: well I believe it’s not straightforward. You believe calling something a human right stops all debate about the issue,but that approach doesn’t work outside of certain parts of Europe and even there is disputed. Your attack on Murray is just ad hominem and of no consequence to me
@Terry O Sullivan: ad hominem? I literally criticised his work. Unless you think the term right wing provocateur is an attack? What is it that has been declared a human right that you don’t think is straight forward?
@Terry O Sullivan: the right wing provocateur title is well earned by Murray with headlines such as “Wokeism has infected our universities and schools- its an insidious movement” in which he…. condemns the teaching of Britain’s colonial past and “Cancel culture is an ugly intolerant trend that insists everyone has to think the same” in which he seeks to cancel the people that disagree with him
Wish coveny was as outspoken about issues in Ireland as international ones.
@Sazzle: He’s minister for foreign affairs. He has a particular interest in foreign issues.
@Sazzle: if he speaks out its an issue, if he doesn’t its an issue. Some people are never happy.
@Ally Mc Culladgh: Exactly and I hope this isn’t just a popularity sound bite. Let’s hope he also follows through and takes up the issue of Qatar holding the World Cup. Considering how they treat members of the LGBT+community.
@Franny Ando: Q
@Sazzle: His role is fairly evident in his job title like. A foreign affairs minister focusing on Ireland would be neglecting their literal purpose in Government.
@Sazzle: he did brilliantly fighting tory stup idity during the entire life of brexit. Try and understand what is going on.
@Kevin Organ: What is happening in Hungary with the LGBT community is truly awful and yes he is minister for foreign affairs but when he was Minister for housing he neglected his duties entirely so I do think its fair to point that out.
@Sazzle: maybe it’s because he is the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Have you tried the other ministers. They cover everything.
Wasn’t their government democratically elected? They have the European Parliament to discuss these issues democratically and on a European level. Hungary’s Domestic policy is of no business of ours.
@Sean McCarthy: So we should turn a blind eye to human rights abuses and infringements coming from a country that we effectively share a federated state with?
@JustMeHere: People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can’t trust people
@Kevin Kilcoyne: why is it a human rights issue.
Young people the world over are being influenced from a young age, sometimes being pressurised to identify themselves as something they may not be.
Let our children grow up and stop trying to put them in boxes
@Sean McCarthy: Actually, it is. As an EU member state, Hungarians have the right to travel, live and work in any EU country without harassment. That right needs to be reciprocated. If LGBT EU citizens cannot feel safe in Hungary because of their domestic policy, then they cannot stay in the EU. So yes, it is very much our business.
@Sean McCarthy: The Nazis we’re also democratically elected. Don’t use that as a catch all please
@Kevin Kilcoyne: why not? We all turn a blind eye to other countries doing much worse then Hungary
@Sean D: Not exactly…
@Sean Barry: Shaming children for something they can’t change about themselves is psychological child abuse. It can leave a lifelong legacy of issues. Laws like this contribute to an atmosphere of toxic shame. That’s why it’s a human rights issue. Awareness an acceptance of gay people in educational settings is not ‘pressurising someone to identify as something they’re not’. Shaming gay children does precisely that – generations of children in the past, and especially under laws like this, have felt the pressure to pretend to be something they’re not.
@Sean Barry: 100% agree with you but this law is a hard sell for me, particularly because it is so intricately bound up with the Orban govt, which is both authoritarian and corrupt.
@Sean McCarthy: wrong. I’m happy to see the EU flag fly along side ours because the EU stand for certain values that Poland and Hungary no longer uphold. If their not happy with EU values they should get back behind the “iron curtain ” where their values are better aligned.
@gofreak: to make this issue out to be one of simple shaming is absurdly reductionist. If your 4yo tells you he wants to be a tree, do you immediately dispense with all his human trappings and plant him in the garden? Of course not. Young children are immensely impressionable and if you start entertaining the idea that the feelings they have might mean that they are eg the wrong sex they will probably go along with it. It’s my job as a parent to guide my children along the most trodden path and if they turn out to be gay or trans later on then so be it, but I wouldn’t want propagandists like Nickelodeon planting confusion in their minds right from the start.
@Squarepeg01: sounds like you’re raising robots. It’s my job as a parent to teach my child to think for themselves and find their own path
@Pablo: ah you say that but you’ll still child proof your house for when he ‘thinks for himself’ that it’s a good idea to poke the electrical sockets with a fork! It’s your job to guide in the early years, and if you’ve done your job right they can find their own path with whatever accumulated wisdom you’ve managed to pass on along the way.
@Squarepeg01: People do not turn out to be gay or trans because of Nickelodeon, but they might hate themselves a little less for being who they are because of it, than they will being brought up by an ignorant, judgemental tightass who expects them to follow the ‘most trodden path’ and blames entertainment for what nature made them.
@Squarepeg01: What are you even talking about? This isn’t a question of prohibiting schools from ‘forcing children to be gay’ per your tree analogy. When it comes to how schools engage around sexualities, they’re not forcing children to ‘be’ something just because the child might think they are something or not. This about prohibiting schools offering any positive affirmation or depiction of homosexuality. You’re pretending that children one day ‘later on’ – when they’re no longer children? – become gay. That’s not how things work. People become aware of their sexuality and attraction at school going ages. What Hungary’s law is prohibiting is gay children seeing any positive affirmation of their being, unlike their straight peers – by making that verboten, it implicitly sends the message to those kids that there’s something wrong about what they are. That IS a matter of shaming. Is there anything in this bill to outlaw homophobia or disapproval of homosexuality in schools? No. This isn’t a neutral bill that simply aims to take any questions of sexuality out of schools. It is designed to remove precisely and only any affirmation of sexualities other than heterosexuality, by implication sending a direct message to gay kids in those schools that they’re on their own, and something to be swept under the carpet. I experienced this same kind of thing first hand – I remember a Monseigneur coming around our religion class, and imploring any gay students not to come out until after they had left school. The effect this had on the gay kids in the school was enormous, two of them were effectively run out of the school because the school turned a blind eye to their bullying. You are advocating the same in supporting laws like this.
@David F. Dwyer: you don’t know why people turn out to be trans, or homosexual for that matter. You’re just mouthing the shibboletha of your progressive ideology. Some kids are probably born that way, some may come from troubled backgrounds and interpret the angst they feel as
being in the wrong body because that interpretation is a high status idea in today’s world. Constant affirmation will re-enforce that idea – like Charlize Theron, for instance, calling her son a girl just because he declared himself one – at 3yo! Many of the trans kids pay a hefty price later on when their biology reasserts itself after they’ve outgrown their phase, and they want to detransition. Where’s your concern for those?
@gofreak: the law is also about protecting children from porn and paedophilia, so you’re wrong that it targets only LGBT issues. I don’t support the law, as it so happens, as you’d know if you’d read one of my earlier comments – I don’t like the use of draconian measures to tackle complex social issues. But nor do I think presenting sexuality to schoolkids is as cut and dry as you suggest. My analogy was meant to suggest that kids think they’re all kinds of fantastic things and it’s the job of the adults in the room to treat what they say in a measured way. I don’t want gay kids or trans kids to feel shamed or isolated but I’m afraid if they really are gay or trans they are inevitably going to experience some angst because most people around them will not be the same as them.
@Sean D: the national socialist party was indeed democratically elected. Hitler then was given sole power by the Kaiser which enabled the the dictatorship under the banner of the Nazi’s which carried out horrendous crimes. Democracy seems to be very selective to some cohorts. Most people say they are in favour of democracy but what they really mean is All opinions matter but only if they are the same as mine.
@Squarepeg01: Let them keep the bits about porn and pedophilia then. The bits people are protesting are around any positive portrayal of homosexuality, or non-heterosexuality. Just to pick up on a comment you’ve made elsewhere about 3 year old kids and trans issues – Hungarian schools haven’t been transitioning kids between genders on the whim of 3 year olds, and oh, now here’s a law to stop that. That’s not what this is about. This is a law that rubber stamps homosexuality etc. as too dangerous for children to be aware of, to push any positive portrayal of homosexuality into adult-only arenas – out of schools, beyond the broadcast watershed etc. You note that some kids ‘are probably born that way’ – accepting that, if you see your society rejecting a state of your being as undesirable if not dangerous, if you see laws rubber-stamping that, what do you think that does for your mental health, as a child growing up? Would you wish that on one of your own children if they were gay? I see in your latter post that you don’t want gay kids to feel shamed or isolated, but the aspects of the law people are protesting will do exactly that. It’s a terrible abuse IMO. I can only hope Hungarian gay kids who today are probably petrified of what’s happening around them can take some little solace in the fact that others around the world are speaking out. That’s the point of Michael Martin etc. speaking up.
@Sean McCarthy: headinthesand… that ended up with 6 million Jews murdered.
@Sean McCarthy: hard luck! Massive fail there
@Squarepeg01: “you don’t know why people turn out to be trans, or homosexual for that matter.” I can tell you for one thing, Cartoon Network didn’t make me who I am. Did you turn out to be straight because television told you who you were?
Spare me the typed effluvia about gender, I’m not interested.
@Kevin Kilcoyne: which human rights abuses?
@Sean Barry: exactly
@gofreak: Children need to be allowed to be exactly that and not subject to off the wall ideas of sexuality before they know the meaning of the word.
@Bala mc blaha: we have just had a case finish in our court’s relating to an abortion which should never have happened. It would not have happened but for the repeal of the eight amendment. So we are in no position to point at any other country.
@Pablo: and what if you’re thinking is absurd??
@David F. Dwyer: you are a great man for the name calling and insulting language
@Liam Mernagh: you can live in a fairytale world where gay school students don’t exist if you wish. Forgive others if they don’t want to sacrifice the mental health of those children on the altar of your homophobic vanity, in which you pretend they don’t exist. You’re happy for children to know about sexuality as long as it’s not ‘off the wall’ per your definition. Homophobia through and through.
How about what’s happening with your friends in Iran and China Simon.
@Padraig Corcoran: he has addressed both situations recently.
@Paul Whitehead: Thank goodness he has so let’s move on from those issues.
@Padraig Corcoran: you were caught on the hop there.
@Padraig Corcoran: You asked if he had addressed them. He has.
@Dave O Keeffe: not at all. If Ireland are trying to enhance relationships with the likes of China do you really think they are bringing up real human rights injustices taking place there?
It’s always quite funny to see the EU accuse others of authoritarianism. The irony seems to genuinely escape them.
@Tom Rooney: seems the meaning of authoritarian is lost on you. You’ve just applied it to the EU which shows you don’t understand its meaning.
Oh the irony of ironys
@Tom Rooney: the EU was created to make European countries more reliant on each other economically so that it would be more devastating for one european country to declare war on another on the aggressor, and less war means less poverty for authoritarians, ie, Mussolini, Hitler, to gain support
Yet Ireland and the rest of the Euro will gladly participate in the Winter Olympics in China. We would gladly participate in the World Cup in Qatar, and our government wouldn’t say a peep. Funny how that works
@thomas walsh: didn’t realise China and Qatar were in the EU.
Should sport been involved in politics
@Seán Dillon: if human rights are jeopardized, then yes, why not
@Seán Dillon: this only became political when politicians got involved. A member of the Hungarian government appealed for UEFA to ban Neuer from wearing a rainbow armband. UEFA denied the request and affirmed that Pride is inclusive and not political. Then a politician requested that UEFA light up a stadium in rainbow colours and they rejected that appeal also.
@Tedburns: so then We will all be boycotting the Winter Olympics coming up in China? No?
A bit rich somebody in our govt accusing anyone of cowardice. The spineless wasters can’t even stand up to the CMO and his buddies.
@John McCann: they did in December remember?
Nine comments on here before and they chose to attack the Taoiseach or the Minster of foreign affairs and ask what about our own problems. None of them appeared to be concerned about the gradual erosion of LGBT rights in Hungary. None of them even mentioned the issue
@Diarmuid #STAYATHOME: They don’t care and thats a major concern.
@Diarmuid #STAYATHOME: empty vessels in a permanent staf of outrage
@Diarmuid #STAYATHOME: It’s the photo at the top of the article, protesting triggers people.
Coveney we know your advisor is some DCU woke lunatic. How about sticking to try to do a job in Irish politics for a change instead of looking for petty woke points from God knows who ever gives a dam when we want to watch a soccer match. Hungry has there laws but out.
@Henry: he’s foreign affairs minister, foreign affairs are literally his job.
@Sam Harms: OK minister for foreign affairs. His job is to have international relations with foreign countries in the interest of Ireland and it’s inhabitants. Also to regulate passport control and promote native Irish abroad and promote Irish values….I’m sorry Sam since when was t Ireland’s interest or value to support LGBT at a non political sporting event. Not every single Irish person has these valued. Also Hungary has autonamy to enforce laws they vote on. As an Irish citizen I’m not sure talking about primary school kids about LGBT stuff yet there too young. That’s my values and I’m not alone. Spot bullying UEFA it’s a sporting organisation not a gay pride parade
@Henry: it’s for anyone under 18 . . You think a young adult is too young to be trusted with educational material?? This isn’t about primary school kids, it’s about eroding rights from a certain section of society and is wrong.
@Henry: Are primary school kids too young to know about straight stuff? About the bible? About crucifixion? About disability? You don’t give primary school children enough credit if you think they cannot process that some people aren’t attracted to the opposite sex and that that is OK. They’re learning about all kinds of things and usually don’t have nearly the same problem processing new information as adults. These are not questions of values, they’re questions of reality. You are also being extremely arrogant to think your children will think the same way you do about these things. If one of your children is gay, and was growing up in Hungary, they’d be growing up under a law that classifies an inherent aspect of their being, something they’re becoming aware of as they grow up, as too dangerous for any positive characterization, too dangerous for pre-watershed exposure. Under laws that characterise their state as a negative social influence. What kind of effect do you think that would have on your child growing up? Do you think it would make your gay child straight? Would that be the hope? Because it wouldn’t. It would simply make them miserable, and compound whatever negativity I’d venture to guess they’d experience at home under your parenting.
@Henry: lol. He’s the Minister…. Of…. Foreign.. affairs.. lol
UEFA is a sporting body, the situation is a political issue, and therefore UEFA’s stance of keeping out of the debate is correct.
If the German Authorities had put in a simple request to light up the stadium with the rainbow colours for Pride Month it may have got approval but once the Munich mayor said they wanted it done to get back at Hungary then UEFA were snookered and couldn’t approve it as they would then be taking one political stance over another. Just because the majority of us agree with the proposal this time doesn’t mean we will the next time so they were right to stay out of it.
@The next small thing: exactly!
Human Rights issues or Politics ?
This precedent should make the World Cup or indeed all International Sports Interesting.
I wonder will there be EU support for Palestinian Flags at certain matches for example, didn’t recall much support for Celtic Fans.
Hungary joined the EU, they are a net beneficiary of EU money. The Hungarian government are going against the values of the EU
@Ally Mc Culladgh: values or influence
@Ally Mc Culladgh: Ah yes, those hard to pin down EU ‘values’ that seem to be constantly reinterpreted to suit the policy aims of the larger member states… https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-two-faced-values-rule-of-law/amp/
@William Tallon: Yet the EU continues to do business a government that has real concentration camps and there is complete silence. Why is that?
@thomas walsh: When it comes to ‘values’ versus trade there’ll only ever be one winner and the EU values trade above all else…
@William Tallon: What is not hard to pin down are certain rights, such as that EU citizens have the right to travel, live and work in any EU country without harassment. If LGBT EU citizens cannot feel safe in Hungary because of this law, then it contravenes EU membership.
@David F. Dwyer: If the Hungarian parliament has done anything illegal in EU law by passing this legislation then a case can be taken against it in the European Court of Human Rights and rightly so. Bringing a case on the grounds of not feeling safe would seem a futile exercise to me. There seems to be a very great desire on the part of many to punish the Hungarian people for having a conservative and therefore ‘wrongthink’ outlook and continuing to elect Viktor Orbán as they have a right to do. Trying to bully them into submission seems a negation of their rights and will ultimately be counterproductive as it will lead to resentment and an increase in homophobia. But as I said it seems more about punishment than genuinely changing attitudes…
@William Tallon: Of course it would seem futile to you, but then you’re not affected by it, are you? You’re not going to face legally backed harassment if you visit a certain country where you should be entitled to the same rights as you would in your own. Hungary wanted to join the club, then they have to act like decent human beings and treat people with dignity and respect. If they passed similar laws about any religion or race there wouldn’t be any argument about ‘punishing’ them, they’d be told to knock it on the head or get out.
@David F. Dwyer: Futile in terms of a basis for legal proceedings as in the definition of futile which is ‘incapable of producing any useful result; pointless…’ Courts judge cases on law not on the basis of emotions like fear. Why are you directing your ire at me? I’m not Hungarian nor do I support the stance of the Hungarian government. I simply observed that many people want to see the Hungarian people punished for their views. I didn’t say I supported those views. It seems to me that you too want them punished and that you’re demanding that they should view people and the world as you do. You sound quite authoritarian actually, which is ironic. Maybe a little less emotion on your part would help you focus somewhat more clearly on what I said and not on what you think I said.
@William Tallon: No sir, you missed the point. Hungary joined the EU and are a net beneficiary of it but have passed a law that discriminates against certain citizens. Individual views are not important, it’s a law that has actual consequences- if an LGBT EU citizen were to travel to Hungary for whatever reason and subjected to prejudice that the law there not only backed but enforced such as refusal of accommodation or goods and services just because of who they are, or actual harassment or abuse for say, public displays of affection- that’s the matter. I don’t care how they view people, but passing laws that strip away peoples’ rights is another matter entirely.
@William Tallon: One more thing, don’t ever patronise me. I didn’t call you prejudiced and I don’t appreciate unsolicited advice about how much emotion to show on a topic. How I feel about anything or express myself is none of your business.
@David F. Dwyer: A very immature, over-emotional and more than a tad contradictory comment there. If how you feel about anything or express yourself is none of my and presumably anybody else’s business then why are you expressing your feelings on a public forum like the Journal where you’re bound to get responses that you may not like? Pointing these things out to you is not patronising you. It’s ‘stating the bleedin’ obvious’ as the saying goes. Hopefully at some point you’ll realise that many people in this world do not think like you and that they will not change their views to accommodate you. People you don’t even know will hate you just because you exist. Life is tough. Life will be very unfair at times. If you can’t change certain things then learn to deal and live with them…
@David F. Dwyer: As I’ve said if they’ve broken any EU laws then they should be rightly taken to court. Your assertion that they’ve stripped people’s rights is for the courts to decide. Asserting something doesn’t make it true no matter how much you want it to be. If on the basis of the evidence presented they are found to have done so they should be sanctioned accordingly. It’s called due process. You unfortunately sound like someone who doesn’t believe in the concept…
@William Tallon: Stick to the issue sir, and do not get personal. A public forum is for discussing public matters, not your opinion of other commentators.
@David F. Dwyer: I find most of what you have to say rather contradictory and lacking in logic. What’s with the ‘sir’ affectation by the way? Weird! Also I think you’ll find that the word is ‘commenter’ and not commentator if you care to check it out. Anyways, I have more interesting things to do than joust with annoyingly self-absorbed people like yourself. Stay safe, stay angry and carry on posting those heartfelt if decidedly over the top comments and childish responses…
I fail to see how it’s a fundamental right to have LGBT mentioned in educational materials. Maybe Hungarian parents don’t want their kids learning about that in school.
@whitewater: It’s a fundamental right for people – and young people – not to be shamed, implicitly or explicitly, for something they cannot change, to be made to feel undignified about an innate characteristic. These laws turn homosexuality into a taboo topic – suggesting it’s something to be suspicious of, something dangerous, something other that shouldn’t be accepted, something undignified – or even something to be reviled. If I turned around and made a law and said that – for example – religion was to be banned in schools, banned before the watershed, not to be promoted, I would rightly be accused of being hateful and infringing on rights. Even moreso if I targeted a particular religion. It’s even truer of something even more innate, in sexuality. A teacher would technically not even be able to defend a child from homophobia in a school setting for fear of promoting homosexuality under these laws.
@whitewater: because not teaching children about accepting LGBTQ people breads homophobia simple as. If we get thought straight relationships are normal but non heteronormative are not when we are young that’s a mindset that gets imbedded and it’s not so easy to get out of that mindset especially in a country where those running it are clearly homophobic.
@whitewater: you’re right.
The EU has instituted a groomer’s charter
Why are the media harping on about this so much…
Can we all just stop pandering ? please !
As much as I dislike Martin, I really appreciate his stance on this. It’s really important to be vocal and add pressure on countries that chip away at LGBT rights, especially those in the EU.
I grew up with hardly a mention of gay people in Dublin. The mental strain of hiding yourself is unbearable.
Why? Why shouldn’t kids learn about the realities of life? Oh hang on… Let’s teach them about imaginary brings instead and tell them they are under constant surveillance instead! That’ll teach em!
If the EU wants to get involved to make things better then they will boycott the Chinese Olympics. Otherwise this is just more pandering
Zzzzzzzzz
@Paul O Faolain: agree 100 percent zzzzzzz
Hungary don’t fear the Dubs….
I do not agree with Hungary’s laws and treatment of minority rights. However, the present government has been democratically elected, and I question the right of another government to attack the internal politics of a foreign sovereign country. It is precisely the reason why the United Kingdom chose to leave the EU.
Noveny
Orban is running out of scapegoats, he needs to keep the culture war going-first immigrants than thinly disguised anti-semitism in the guise of Soros now gay rights.
Populist playbook needs to blame the “other” to hide their own failings.
Comments on the journal are being taken over by the anti everything brigade.
Yawn
Can teachers still be fired in Ireland if they come out?
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: The law was changed in 2015 to stop that, IIRC. So hopefully not.
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: when did that ever happen?
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: nope
@Valthebear: Not sure about public cases where gay teachers were fired, but people certainly were fired under the provisions that were knocked down in 2015 – an unmarried mother most famously – the same provisions under which gay teachers could have been fired by Catholic schools. The threat was perceived as real enough to keep most in the closet – most gay teachers wouldn’t come out and risk being fired in the first place.
Poland and Hungary deserve sanctions but they will always veto everything against each other. Rules need to change so two dictatorships can’t veto the will of all of Europe
Im sure Putin would be glad to welcome Hungary back into the fold, would be easier than overrunning them like they did the last time.
Gender and sex should never have been any part of politics.
Some grade A whataboutism going on in the chat tonight. Yeah this country has problems so does every other country in the world so if that disqualifies us from saying anything about any other country then no country would be allowed to say anything at all, and human rights abuses would just be ignored by the wider world. They passed a similar law in Russia and now there’s concentration camps for gay people in Chechnya so that is the precedent we’re dealing with on this issue, no EU member state should be okay with anything like that possibly happening within an EU country or any kind of country. So yeah we have problems here but that shouldn’t stop us from having opinions on important issues
Mark Rutte …. and expel Spain as well as Hungary for their brutal treatment of EU citizens in Barcelona in 2017 – should not be tolerated by any civilised society. Out Out Out.
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