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The site of the mass grave at Tuam. Niall Carson/PA Wire

Excavation to take place at site of alleged mass grave at Tuam

The excavation will take place following allegations about the deaths of 800 babies and the manner in which they were buried.

AN EXCAVATION WILL be carried out on the site of a former mother and baby home in Tuam, Co Galway.

The excavation will take place following allegations about the deaths of 800 babies and the manner in which they were buried at the home, which came to light two years ago.

The excavation was ordered by the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes, which was set up following the allegations in July 2016.

In a statement issued today, the Commission said that works on the excavation would begin tomorrow and last for about five weeks.

“The purpose of the excavation is to resolve a number of queries that the Mother and Baby Homes Commission has in relation to the interment of human remains at this location,” the statement reads.

This excavation will focus on timeline and stratigraphy.

The Commission said that it will excavate test trenches of the site to determine the timeline of how soil is layered at the site.

It said that geophysical survey of the grounds was carried last year to assist with this.

Children And Youth Affairs Minister Katherine Zapppone travelled to the Tuam site today to meet former residents of mother and baby homes.

The minister said the stories from people who had lived in the home was “very distressing”.

She said she hoped the Commission would help former residents and relatives of those who had died at the homes.

The Commission is due to publish a report into its investigation into the homes in February 2018.

Zappone said that an interim report had recently been presented to her by the Commission.

“I hope in the next week or two I can release that,” she said.

Read: Explainer: What is happening with the possible mass grave of children in Tuam?

Read: Two years after it was set up, what’s happening with the mother and baby home inquiry?

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122 Comments
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    Mute leartius
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:14 PM

    Will we ever find out why these babies were murdered or will any of the evil b!tches that killed them be brought to justice. Why should the guilty rest in mark graves when the innocent were buried in mass graves? Mother and babies homes what a sick joke these children were cash cows for the clergy. Babies stolen from mothers who then had to work as slaves to pay for allaged sins against God. The most insulting thing is that these monsters years later stood between these mothers ever finding there children because it would embarrass the unholy church. They still control our education and hosipial system protected by FF and FG. This commission should have being held in public instead of hidden away from the public to protect those who show no remorse or pay compensation to their victims. Church and state colluded against the poorest and most vunderable right up until the present day.

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:31 PM

    Excellent comment.

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    Mute John B
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:21 PM

    Religion: mankind’s most stupid invention.

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:48 PM

    @leartius: Did you not know that the Soviet Union was an atheist run state who persecuted its citizens who were religious believers because of their beliefs. I am glad for educating you on this matter

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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:57 PM

    Turned out the Soviets were on to something didn’t it.

    22
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    Mute Derek Walsh
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:01 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: That’s why we need a secular state where religious or non-religious beliefs are private matters, as long as they don’t harm anyone.

    53
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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:37 PM

    @Con Here the difference one said they were there to help and listening to a higher moral ground while the other made it very clear they were at war and trying to kill the people.

    24
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:39 PM

    Con you’re part of an organisation that is responsible for mass graves, systematic child abuse, the murder of countless thousands, slavery, medical experiments, fraud, rape, and countless other crimes in this country alone and in peacetime and you want to compare their actions to some of the worst war crimes in history ? OK fine by me…

    35
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:16 PM

    @Poole Hyde:”mass graves, systematic child abuse, the murder of countless thousands, slavery, medical experiments, fraud, rape, and countless other crimes in this country alone”
    These are your words. Perhaps you can give me the evidence for the Catholic Church being responsible for the murder of countless thousand in this country alone. Are you’re sure you are not confusing The Church with the Brits. I Await Your Reply.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:26 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: 800 bodies in a mass grave. How did they get there? Who put them there? And what did they die from?

    23
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:49 PM

    Don’t bother with him Dave. He’s trying to lessen the gravity of his own organisations crimes by pointing to worse. His motto should be along the lines of “The Catholic Church… at least it’s not a Stalinist purge”.

    26
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:07 PM

    @Dave Doyle: Can you prove the children. If you do you should contact the Gardai

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    Mute Dave O Keeffe
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    Sep 30th 2016, 11:19 PM

    Con, so you’re saying that something that happened in Russia years ago is the fault of all atheists? Well by your you are personally responsible for child abuse, enslavement, selling babies, killing babies, paedophilia. Do you not see how stupid it is to reply to an article about clerical abuse here by justifying it based on something that happened somewhere else? People did wrong. It should be investigated. Simple. That’s all you have to say. Or you can keep calling yourself a paedophile.

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Oct 1st 2016, 7:21 AM

    Not exactly the point here on this thread Con. But we get it. Your belief in a sky fairy trumps any remorse for these poor children.

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Oct 1st 2016, 11:45 AM

    @Dave O Keeffe: The article is not about clerical abuse it is about excavating a site where children who died in a Mother and baby home were buried. I totally agree that justice must be do and the matter totally investigated. The sad point is that most of the people who ran these homes are dead. All I did was to point out tot he atheist Catholic bashers who think they are squeaky clean to look at the actions of their brethren. I see by the reaction I am getting that I have hit a nerve. I have also pointied out that contrary to some peoples ideas, non Catholics and atheists have carried out paedophilia and heinous crimes as well as Catholics.

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Oct 1st 2016, 11:56 AM

    @Ian Phillip Creaner: I expect you are an adult and talking about sky fairies shows that you have childish tendencies and you should grow up. Of course I have sympathy for the children who died in these homes and a investigation is taking place to find out why the babies died. I just pointing out that that atheists committed horrible crimes as well as Catholics. Maybe it annoys you that I have shone a light into the atheist-communist juntas in The Soviet Union..

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    Mute Larry Molloy
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    Mar 11th 2017, 12:49 PM

    @Poole Hyde: genocide justifier

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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:53 PM

    I was adopted from a Mother and Baby home myself. This is a very weird feeling I’m experiencing right now reading this I’ll tell you that.

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    Mute OU812
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:10 PM

    Only now?

    146
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    Mute Derek Durkin
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:49 PM

    Had to give them time to get rid of any incriminating evidence….that’s how they roll here.

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    Mute Phil Blanc
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:57 PM

    Is this the place where the bead rattlers were wailing didn’t contain any bodies?

    51
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:38 PM

    If they start finding human remains will they finally start declaring these sites potential crime scenes ?

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    Mute Charlie Wrex
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:43 PM

    I hope so.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:17 PM

    @Poole Hyde: They will say its animal bones etc. to cover up.

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    Mute judy burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:32 PM

    Doubt it …. Why? Just look up

    “1993: Riddle of the Magdalene laundry dead : WHO ARE THEY ??”

    A shocking tale ! Only more of the same …

    38
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    Mute Ross McMahon
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:28 PM

    Religion. It’s fantastic isn’t it? Repeal the 8th.

    102
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:05 PM

    @Ross McMahon: Atheism is fantastic isn’t it
    http://www.katyn.org.au/

    15
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    Mute John B
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:22 PM

    Con, what have the soviets got to do with this?

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:55 PM

    @John B: You do not know why. Let me educate you . The Soviet Union was an atheist run entity whose leaders murdered and persecuted its citizens who were religious believers because of their religious beliefs. I can also mention China and North Korea which are more of the same. Contradict me if you wish.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:30 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: You can be either a religious person or an atheist, and still be revolted by the horror of 800 children buried in a mass grave.

    33
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    Mute Sean
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:53 PM

    But can you mention anything about Ireland Con? Because, you know, this is Ireland. And these heinous crimes were committed by the church. In Ireland. Where we are. The country the rest of us are talking about. While you are talking about soviets.

    31
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:08 PM

    @Dave Doyle: Of course I am horrified about 800 babies I have no evidence for the number of 800 but you will send me a citation.for that. It is horrible that this happened.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:48 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: Maybe you’ll ask the Journal as well.

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Oct 1st 2016, 7:24 AM

    Oh now I get it Con. The Catholic Church was bad, but ohhhh look. The Soviets were bad too. Two wrongs obviously make a right. What were we talking about again??????

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Oct 1st 2016, 11:59 AM

    @Ian Phillip Creaner: Just pointing out that atheist committed crimes as well as Catholics. A totally unwelcome truth for you and the other Anti Catholic atheist keyboard warriers.

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    Mute Bigus Diccus
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    Sep 30th 2016, 3:12 PM

    Alleged me hole.

    93
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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:55 PM

    Several recorded instances of children and babies dying of malnutrition. I wonder how many nuns died of malnutrition over the same time period?

    60
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    Mute Conor Power
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:50 PM

    You cannot deny the mortality rates, and that is only the records that survived. Hard to come to terms with how a group of people could rationalise allowing a baby to starve to death.This is on par with the great evils of history and should be viewed as such. Carried out by the catholic church and facilitated by the state.

    50
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:52 PM

    Money, backhanders and plenary indulgences for all.”We’re all going to heaven lads”…

    13
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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:08 PM

    It is galling and frustrating to know that no matter what is discovered, by way of how and why these children no one will ever be held accountable.

    47
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    Mute James Xenophon
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:00 PM

    This is such a non-story – media hype. There’s isn’t a shred of evidence that any of these deaths were other than natural.

    31
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:19 PM

    Bar the child mortality rates in these places running at fifty percent plus that of the general population at times despite the homes being very well funded or the witness testimony of things like “dying rooms” or records from doctors concerned about the death rates being suppressed as far back as the 1920′s .Yeah, nothing to see here…

    79
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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:19 PM

    If nobody was checking on how these babies died there isn’t a shred of evidence they DID die of natural causes. There are however statements from people who were told babies died when they didn’t . Secrecy into what happened to babies from these centres is known hence suspicion.

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    Mute Cormac Laffan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:21 PM

    @James Xenophon: Perhaps dna can reunite some of the kids remains with their families, all we can hope for at this stage. Sooner would have been better though.

    37
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    Mute James Xenophon
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    Sep 30th 2016, 4:35 PM

    @Cormac Laffan: Yes, the Irish exchequer has so much money to waste on that nonsense. Let’s reunite some of the bog bodies in the National Museum with their descendants while we’re at it.

    11
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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:13 PM

    @James Xenophon: Plenty of money to waste on IW, bank and bondholder debt, TD and minister pay rises, quangoes and quango heads, Dennis etc.
    DNA might tell us something that the authorities may well find disturbing, they might have to answer questions.
    The nonsense will be in the answers.

    34
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:41 PM

    These kids were worth bugger all to people like him when they were alive why should they be worth anymore dead. They didn’t even make the grade to be sold to medical colleges for dissection like the hundreds that ended up on the anatomy slab. He’s right about about the exchequer being short of money though. If only there was some quasi criminal religious cult out there with vast property portfolios that owed the state and it’s victims billions in unpaid settlements.

    45
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:20 PM

    @Poole Hyde: Maybe you can cite evidence for your theory. I have provided evidence for the murder of 20,000 Polish Catholics in Kathyn ( which you approved of ) so let us come up with the goods.

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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:53 PM

    Con I’m not about to engage in a game of what aboutery with some delusional rosary rattling apologist for child murders but in the interest of educating others here’s your proof http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/400-babies-were-dissected-at-universities-169948.html

    24
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:46 PM

    Con, I told you I wasn’t interested in continuing a discussion with you. Let me make this absolutely clear, you deluded weirdo, our “conversation” is over.

    22
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    Mute Sean
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:02 PM

    Don’t argue with Con. Laugh at him. His church is on its knees in Ireland. Dying right before our eyes. And there’s not a gad damn thing he can do about it. It’s hilarious.

    20
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:07 PM

    Sean it’s more relief and a sense of justice finally being done to be honest. How these places could still operate until the mid 80′s is next on the to do list because believe you me there are sitting politicians who were up to their necks in all of this.

    16
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:12 PM

    @Poole Hyde: As I said , If you can’t stand the heat do not go into the kitchen and you could not stand thee heat. As for your name calling it says more about you than me.

    1
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    Mute Sean
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:13 PM

    It’s a start but I don’t think there will ever any justice. The people at the top, in both the church and state, will be long dead before the full truth is ever revealed. But at least the people have punished the church themselves.

    16
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:50 PM

    @Sean: Your atheist brethren are totally wiped out in the Soviet Union. Churches that were once Museums of atheism are now opened up and people are worshipping again.It’s hilarious.Sean is it not. You can still and go and worship the stuffed body of Lenin in red square but only tourists visit there now. As for the Catholic Church you are engaging in wishful thinking

    1
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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:22 PM

    The church still owns 95% of the primary schools. Not bad for a church that’s on its knees, eh?

    Ha h ha ha he he he ha

    1
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 11:01 PM

    At this stage Sean even some of the truth would represent a little justice at least. I’d still like the deal Enda Kenny did to seal the files lifted. A nice lottery win and I’d probably pay a few professionals to “unseal” them for him. It’s only a matter of time anyway. One or two mass graves on international news and they’ll have to be released. Church here is dead anyways. Maynooth is gone and with so few priests/bishops left here the government won’t have much opposition.

    9
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    Mute M Bowe
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    Sep 30th 2016, 11:41 PM

    A cellar full of children’s skeletons found in 1975 have remained without proper investigation and left to speculation since then.. That alone is to the utter shame of FF and FG who have been in government throughout this period at different stages. So much for cherishing the children of this ‘Nation’!!!!

    10
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    Mute M Bowe
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    Sep 30th 2016, 11:50 PM

    @James X. There is more than enough money in the coffers of the Catholic Church to pay for any and all lines of investigation to resolve as much as possible of this grotesque treatment of children in their care.

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    Mute Audreyanne Brady
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    Oct 1st 2016, 3:21 AM

    Oh change the bloody record,man

    1
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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Oct 1st 2016, 7:29 AM

    Tick tock Tom

    4
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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Oct 1st 2016, 12:01 PM

    @M Bowe: Have you forgotten The Labour party, The Greens and The Pee Dees

    1
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    Mute Noirin Kavanagh
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    Oct 1st 2016, 6:00 PM

    @James Xenophon, what a disgusting comment! So it’s nonsense to suggest that potential crime be investigated and any living relatives be informed of the outcome? Are you one of the gang afraid of nasty truths coming out?

    1
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    Mute oliverjumelle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:35 PM

    If it’s escavating for bodies. Shouldn’t the gardai be heavily involved or leading the investigation???

    23
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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:24 PM

    They’re on strike.

    2
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    Mute Winston Smith
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:37 PM

    With the many millions spent on government inquires which end up going nowhere surely they should spare no expense looking into this very sad episode in our history.

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    Mute Charliegrl80
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:05 PM

    Please help survivors they are being abused all over again by the government and the people running the fund set up to help them! http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/abuse-survivors-appealing-funding-refusal-doubles-422401.html

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:46 PM

    The answer to these horrible things is not abortion. Have we learned anything?

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:50 PM

    Murdering babies outside the womb is better than inside?

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    Mute fiachra29
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    Sep 30th 2016, 5:51 PM

    What we have learned is how important it is to keep the church and their murderous, child raping hands off the running of this country.

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    Mute Paul Fahey
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:01 PM

    Daisy – Tom likes to defend men in dresses who rape and kill children, it’s his kink I am sure of it.

    29
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    Mute Poole Hyde
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:03 PM

    And that it’s even more important to hold it to account now and to show it’s followers the true nature of their organisation. Let’s see how many would still consider themselves Catholic if mass graves containing children were being shown on the lunchtime news.

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:05 PM

    @fiachra29: So the Church is running this country, are you being funny. The last Government was run by Fine Gael and Labour not any church. and so is the present run by a hotch potch of political parties, and as for murder and rape, so the church is now responsible for all the murder and rape in this country. I think Fiacra you should refrain from consuming alcohol on weekday afternoons.

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:22 PM

    That’s quite a big charge Paul.
    In the interest of a little bit of fairness it would be nice if you to provide some evidence.

    Or perhaps I’m being a bit unreasonable?

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:25 PM

    Daisy
    Is that a question or a statement?
    Give me a clue.

    I condemn without reservation what could have happened in these homes.
    I have no problem saying that.

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    Mute fiachra29
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:33 PM

    Wow Con that’s some serious wilful ignorance, downright stupidity and even a poor ability. You see Con my comment does not state the church is running the country, the verb I used “keep” indicates that the church should be prevented from running the country.

    Now when we look at my comment in the context of the article above it’s clear that I’m expressing the importance of not returning to a time in recent history where the Catholic church had an extremely strong influence over the running of this country, it could even be argued that they practically ran the country. You see during this period our Constitution even specified a special position of the Catholic church within the country, also many of the laws such as the bans on divorce, divorce and abortion and mass censorship, the Churches control over education and health all reflected the power of the church over the state.

    Also I never stated the church is responsible for all murder and rape, but the church has committed these crimes, numerous investigations and indeed the article above have proved this. Now is everything clear Con, or do you need it put into even more basic English.

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:40 PM

    @Paul Fahey: Your atheist brethren in the Soviet Union and China in the last hundred years have murdered more people than any Catholics in the past 2,000 years and since you bring up raping children . I shall educate of the hundreds of innicent German women raped by your brethren in Germany in 1945. According to the Historian Anthony Beaver every female between 8 and 80 was raped at that time. As for you childess comments about men in dresses I would advise you to grow up . Your picture shows you as an adult, act like one
    .library.flawlesslogic.com/massrape.htm
    http://www.theguardian.com › World › Germany
    Cached

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    Mute fiachra29
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:14 PM

    Ha my brethren you call it, and then launching into talking about Communism, classic whataboutery Con. Now Con I know in your simplistic witch hunting world Communism and atheism are the same thing but I’m afraid Communism describes a socioeconomic structure based on common ownership of the means of production, atheism describes a lack of belief in any god or deity see how they’re different.

    Now I notice in none of your other comments have you actually addressed the content of this article, the presence of a mass grave in land controlled by the Catholic church in this country, what’s your opinion on that Con?

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:46 PM

    @fiachra29: So the communist Government and its members were not atheists so. ? They did not murder and persecute religious believers because of their beliefs ?
    So this junta did not close churches down and install Museums of Atheism ?
    http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/3011/
    So there was no such think as The League of Militant Atheists who made sure the diktats of their leaders?
    http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/horrific-human-toll-of-militant-atheism-exposed/
    Are you telling that Comrade Lenin did not say that “Atheism a natural and inseparable part of communism” ?
    So now are you telling me that Lenin, Stalin, Mao and all the other leaders were not atheists. Perhaps you will tell me they were practising Catholics, will you !

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:48 PM

    Paul
    Being the upstanding citizen that you are, if you have any evidence of any man committing murder, be he dress wearing or otherwise, I would implore you to advise the authorities ASAP.

    Unless of course you are talking through your sphincter.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:49 PM

    Paul
    Think, it might save a life.

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    Mute Con O Sullivan
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    Sep 30th 2016, 7:59 PM

    @fiachra29: My reading of the Constitution says that everyone can practice and not practice a religion. Non Catholics were giver grants grants for their schools at the same rate as Catholics. There was no religious persecution of any minority here compared to Nothern Ireland were Catholics suffered terrible discriminations. We have had two members of the Protestant minority being President , we even have an atheist president at the moment so are atheists being discriminated against?. Can you say that about China or The Soviet Union. Yes members of The Catholic Church have committed . Are you telling me that atheists in this country has committed no crime or no protestant has comitted any crime. The Bethany Home was a Protestant Mother and Baby Home and the babies who died there are buried in a mass grave in Mount Jerome Cemetery Dublin.. Taliking about mass graves remember Katyn Forest. 20,000 Polish Catholics lie there since 1940. Will you blame Catholics for that massacre

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:22 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: At the end of WW2, American and French troops raped German women in the same numbers, if not more, than Russian troops. Catholic Poland and Czechsolakia murdered 11 million German men, women, children, and German POWs. More German civilians died at the hands of Poles, Czechs and Russians at the end of the war, than Jews died in the concentration camps
    Horrors abounded after 1945 in Europe.
    You cannot point your finger at examples of crimes against humanity in Europe or Russia, and use that as an excuse to deflect from the crimes against humanity, or horrors visited on young women, young men, boys, girls, children, by the various orders of the Catholic Church since the inception of the state.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:44 PM

    @Dave Doyle: So I am not being truthful about the rapes committed by the Soviet troops in Germany. Where am I deflecting anything. I am just reminding these atheist self righteous Catholic bashers about the terrible inflicted by their brethren on innocent women. I cannot condone any abuse of crimes committed by member of the Catholic clergy.. It was horrible. You know nothing about me and saying that I am defledting anything about crime comitted by Catholics is wrong

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    Sep 30th 2016, 8:58 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: I notice you made no comment on the crimes committed on German civilians and POWs by Catholic states after the war. Many of the crimes instigated by Catholic clergy.
    You dont have to be an atheist to be against the crimes of the Catholic Church in Ireland, or elsewhere. You can be one of any number of Christian denominations and still be horrified.
    You are dishonest, disingenuous, deflective, and selective in your comments. It matters not a damn if anyone here is an atheist or a communist, or a Catholic. There is no excusing what went on in the places run by the Catholic Church in the country.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:01 PM

    @Con O Sullivan: Read “After the Reich” by Giles Mac Donogh. You’ll need a strong stomach.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:12 PM

    @Dave Doyle: I have read Berlin The Fall by Anthony Beaven and a Women in Berlin. It needed a strong stomach

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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:41 PM

    @Dave Doyle:
    “You are dishonest, disingenuous, deflective, and selective in your comments”.Perhaps you can enlighten me in these matters. Did I tell lies with anything I wrote, could you tell me what was disingenuous, deflective, and selective in your comments”. You will point out to me if I am incorrect in the rapes of hundreds of thousands of women by the atheist- communist army of the Soviet Union. Or the Massacre of 20,000 Catholic Poles by the army in 1940. Did I hit a nerve and upset you with the truth. Or to your mindset do these atrocities happen at all or are best covered up, ? Or it it only Catholics co mitt crimes in Ireland or abroad.”

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    Mute Dave Kerins
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    Sep 30th 2016, 9:58 PM

    Just to state the facts guys, it was officers of the Polish army which were murdered by the Soviet Union during the war. Most may have been Catholic, but there were other denominations present also.
    Also, why condemn just one system’s crimes against humanity, be they Communist or Catholic? Should you not be condemning violence against humanity by all countries, institutions etc?
    It’s like watching a game of oneupmanship between you all.
    Stick to the point! There is a shady part of our history that has been shamefully hidden away and it is now, uncomfortably for all, been brought into the public eye. Times were different then. Yes, this may be true, but had we erred so far from human decency back then and how was it allowed to happen? We know some of the answers, let’s find the rest and stop this happening again.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:05 PM

    @Con O Sullivan:
    Soviet Union army was not atheist. It was communist, yes, but there were also believers in its ranks. As that old saying goes, “There are no atheists in the trenches”.
    It did inflict horrendous suffering on the female population of Eastern Europe. It is understandable how this occurred as the Soviet Army wanted revenge on the country that invaded and devastated its own land, but it cannot be condoned nevertheless.
    You’ve got to get the facts correct.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:08 PM

    Tom – so sue me, after all it should be easy getting one over an “idiot”, you chased me round all Christmas Day last year saying you were going to, but still waiting.

    Everyone on here knows what you are and who you defend and I am not the only one who points it out, so instead of calling Irish women murderers have a good look at yourself.

    As I said, I am sure it is your kink.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:09 PM

    @Con O Sullivan:
    Also Con, they inflicted the misery of rape, not only on the German civilian population, but on concentration camp survivors, and even their own liberated forced labourers, to name a few.
    Indeed if we were to look at the Russia of today and compare its current political system to Stalinist times, I think we would find a frightening series of similarities, Eastern Ukraine, Syria etc.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:12 PM

    @Tom Burke:
    So what is the answer Tom? And please don’t say, “prayer”.

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:18 PM

    @Dave Doyle:
    Recent historical research puts the number of rapes committed by the Soviet Army in the final phase of the war at around 2 million. It can never be conclusively determined with any degree of accuracy. There isn’t any evidence to back up a claim that the number of rapes committed by the American and French troops exceeded, or even approached this number.
    Where did you read this evidence?

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:35 PM

    @Dave Kerins: The vast majority of the Polish men murdered by the members of the Communist atheist -regime of The Soviet Union, yes they were Lutherans and Jews murdered as well. I will condemn all crime committed by all religions and none but there is what I call a cohort of Anti Catholic atheist on these treads who engage in non stop Catholic bashing and it is no harm to remind them of the crimes committed by their atheist brethren. Some of those people object to the truth and have called me nasty names which does not bother me in the least. Of course their is a shady past in this country both before the country became independent with the persecution by the Brits and the continues persecution by Members of The Catholic Orders and Clergy. and I knowledge that. Fyrthermore there was abuses committed by the state.
    I would like to hope that as a country we have learned lessons but we will be back here in twenty years with more horrific tales of abuse of children as the abuses are still going on.
    I am quite will to debate with anyone but it is difficult on these treads with so much poison about

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:46 PM

    @Dave Kerins: My facts are correct. I am sorry to dissagree with you. Considering the sufferings undergone by religious believers since the revolution I cannot see that army as anything but atheists run by atheists. I have not heard of that army having a Catholic or Russian Chaplians . I know The Polish Army had Chaplains but they were murdered at Katyn. As I say there is no use blaming Catholics for all the evils as the brethren on these treads do

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    Sep 30th 2016, 10:51 PM

    @Dave Kerins: How ever bad Russia is now it has to go along way before it reaches the depths of inhumanity that Stalin and his acolytes sank to. I still believe that it is no harm to give the Anti Catholic atheist brethren a dose of their own medicate. I must admit it was a pleaseure to have a rational discussion with someone who is not bigoted

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    Sep 30th 2016, 11:52 PM

    @Con O Sullivan:
    The “fighting fire with fire” approach usually doesn’t work. There must always be someone to blame, the Church, the government, the Soviets etc.
    In fairness though, Con, while I commend your attempt to “medicate” these “brethren”, you really do weaken your arguments by basing them on incorrect evidence. Indeed, sir, for someone who says they have read Anthony Beavan books (I assume you mean “Beevor”), and I would also hazard a guess you read other authors, your spelling is poor. This surprises me.
    Brush up on the facts, not what you think should be the facts, but the actual ones, sharpen up on the grammar, and before you know it, these “brethren” may actually start taking you seriously.
    I’d say you could become a powerhouse of rational debate on this forum Con. Right now, and I hope you’ll pardon the unintended pun here, it’s a bit more like David and Goliath and I’m just not sure what character you’re playing.
    But look, and I’m really putting myself out here, if you want someone to proof-read for you before you post, I’ll offer my service to you for free. Reading some of the posts here have given me more than a few “nails on the blackboard” moments.
    The Journal is not looking for an impartial moderator for this site, are they? I come cheap.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Oct 1st 2016, 12:10 PM

    @Dave Kerins: Have a read of Giles MacDonogh’s “After the Reich” . American authorities treated the German population with undisguised contempt, their troops engaged in wholesale rape and plunder. French troops, particularly the French colonial troops, who were given days to rape pillage and plunder German towns, and no questions asked.
    After the initial months of whole rape and murder of German women, the Russians treated the German population in their sector with much more humanity than the allies.
    What happened to Germans, men, women and children, ethnic German families, in Eastern Europe at the end of the war, was a greater holocaust than ever suffered by the Jews.

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    Oct 1st 2016, 12:17 PM

    @Dave Kerins: Yes I must admit I left school at 15 and have not the chance to write much until 5 years ago when I went back to college to do a BA degree. UCC do not give out degree too cheaply, so I must have something going for me. Yes I remember David and Goliath but in that story David won. The problem with “the brethren is that they do not want to know the atrocities committed by the atheist run Soviet Union and seem to think that only Catholics committed any crime. As for engaging with me. These people do not engage with people outside their own mindset

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    Mute Noirin Kavanagh
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    Oct 1st 2016, 6:27 PM

    @Con O Sullivan, your arrogance is tedious. You set out to educate those who disagree with you and then you proceed to raise a series of repeated and irrelevant points which do not address the issues raised. Yes, people here bash the role of the RC Church for its many faults and you attempt to diminish their arguments by citing the behaviour of non catholics throughout history, in particular the US SR, which certainly has always had, right up to this day, people of faith among its citizens. What on earth has the behaviour of non believers, who are not a homogeneous group, do not subscribe to any unifying belief system, have no “club membership” defining them as anything other than non believers have to do with the behaviour of those who, in another display of arrogance, presumed to preach morality to us for generations while perpetrating atrocities, covering up their crimes, and interfering with democracy? Two completely different groups of people, Con, and your comparison, no matter how often you repeat it is invalid, not because other atrocities aren’t perpetrated by non catholics and non believers, but because it is the atrocities of the RC Church which is under discussion here! So if you want to refute something the “church basher” says, deal with what they actually allege, not some straw man

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    Oct 1st 2016, 6:41 PM

    @Dave Doyle:
    I’ll certainly check out that book, although it will take a bit of convincing to persuade me that the level of rape perpetrated by the Allies against the populations in their zones of control exceeded that which the Soviet Army committed. I’m going on facts here as opposed to any anti-Soviet agenda.
    Also, I think you’ll find that the systemic and industrial scale annihilation of the Jewish populations of Europe during the war, far outweighs the sufferings imposed on the German population at the end of the war. Both were heinous crimes, although, in my humble opinion, the slaughter of the Jews was not surpassed by those other acts. This was something which had the full cooperation of all arms of the Nazi state, militarily, economically, politically, etc and also had an infrastructure created solely to make the whole process as efficient as possible. Incomparable really.

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    Oct 1st 2016, 6:46 PM

    @Noirin Kavanagh:
    I’d say Con, after reading Noirin’s post above, if I was to put it in boxing parlance, you’ve just had a TKO. I’m curious to see how you will respond to that. If I was in your corner I’d just throw in the towel!

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Oct 1st 2016, 8:21 PM

    @Dave Kerins: Dave, it wasn’t the German population, in Germany that suffered, what i call the “German Holocaust”. The ethnic Germans of Eastern Europe, some who’s families had lived there for hundreds of years, or those Germans who moved into the conquered territories, encouraged to do so by Hitler.
    The details of what they suffered at the hands of Poles, Czechs, particularly, makes gassing in a gas chamber seem like a mercy.
    Benes, on his return from exile in London was greeted with the streets lit up by German POWs hung by their heels from lamp posts and burned alive. He seen nothing wrong with this.
    German troops became bandits and took to the woods and mountains in gangs rather than surrender.
    Try and get a copy of the book, it’s horrific, but an interesting read. It is one part of history that has been kept very quite.
    I’m on FB, if you want to contact me.

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    Mute shits ville
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    Sep 30th 2016, 6:14 PM

    Hey Journal
    Where are the missing 16 comments??

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    Mute Eimear Dawson
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    Oct 3rd 2016, 1:59 AM

    I find it very distressing and almost unbelieveable to read that such awful events occurred in Ireland and that no one was willing to report them to the Authorities or the Media when they were actually happening in Tuam and other places. Many local people must have assisted in the burials and they must have known that what was happening was very wrong. Who forced them to be silent? I hope that all those involved can be quickly traced and severely punished. If they had spoken out at the time, the number of such shameful events might have been less Many readers will clearly recall the days when the Catholic Church ruled our country in all kinds of matters, and most of the population accepted this. In rural areas annual Missions were held over the period of about a week. Visiting clergy preached “fire and brimstone” and filled the nightly large congregagtions with fear and trembling. This was obviously designed to prevent any sort of criticism of how the country was being controlled. We allowed such control to continue for too long, ,

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