Hit the print button on the keyboard.

It’s not “yours” you muppet. And not everyone has the luxury of working for a company than can both lose money and increase pay at the same time and still swan off with a pension at the end of it. Unless of course it’s the taxpayer footing the bill….

@John Moylan: Well said John

John, The working class create all of the real wealth on which humanity depends. Everything from the food in our bellies to the most sophisticated technology is produced by the workers through their labour and ingenuity. It’s ours and we need to organise and fight to take what is ours. And the workers don’t need your approval or permission to do so as Dublin Bus and the Luas workers have clearly demonstrated. Solidarity with all workers struggling to obtain a greater share of the wealth which they have created.

There would be no working class without employers. The employers also work, have much more responsibility, and take risks.

Billy your away with the fairies.

Well put John.

There would be nothing without the working class. Capital will not employ a single person or produce a single item without the expectation of profit. That profit is generated by the workers in the excess value they create over and above their wages.

@Billy Mooney: you deliberately twisted the ‘ours’ to mean labour, when in fact the matter is not the labour per se, but the rate of remuneration for it.
By all means if you’re not happy, withdraw your labour – permanently – and let someone else have the job.
And no, ingenuity is not the preserve of ‘workers’ in your narrow narrative. Employers are actual workers too, and their greatest achievement is the provision of a (paid-for) opportunity for those why seek……..employment.
As for the “wealth” you create, you conveniently ignored my point: if the “wealth” you create is in fact a deficit, then shouldn’t you actually pay something back ?

John, Knock yourself out being an obedient little labour unit if you wish. The rest of us will continue to fight to take what is ours.

And the profit that capital eternally seeks to accumulate takes the form of money. And the money is ultimately created on the computer keyboards of the world’s central and commercial banks. We need a better socioeconomic system where economic activity is undertaken to meet human need instead of to obscenely enrich the elite.

@Billy Mooney: I can tell from your comment about me that you have no idea what I do for a living, which makes your comments markedly uninformed, and undermines you further.

@Billy Mooney: you still haven’t answered the question I’ve posed twice now: if the output of your labour is a net loss to the company, the economy & society – then shouldn’t you reimburse it ?

All is I need to know about you is contained in your comments John. What you do for a living is irrelevant to me.

Do you think this is a Q&A session John? Just be grateful for whatever bone I throw your direction.

@Billy Mooney: Say Macro Billy!!!! The amount of rubbish you regurgitate is actually quite laughable. You are always the winner for most red thumbs and nuisance every day. Long winded posts that try to make you sound intelligent. Its like your stuck on chapter 3 of left wing populism for Dummies

@Billy Mooney: Without employers, you wouldnt have a lob billy.

Roibeard, You’re confusing popularity with being correct. Which is why you’re unable to point to anything incorrect in what I’ve written.

here we go wally and the aaa leading the irish. Bolshevik revoution . went well in Russia and China. sign me up. sure we can blame the government when it goes wrong

It’s been going wrong since the foundation of the state Con. And they capped it off in 2008 by stealing € 100 + billion from the people and pumping it into the delinquent and corrupt banks. Ireland has always been governed in the interests of capital and at the expense of the working class. And the exploitation will continue until the working class organise and put a stop to it.

Continue to fight for what is ours Billy!!! On the comments section the theJournal.ie I assume!!! Good man Billy.

@Billy Mooney: I lived, worked and am still suffering for decisions made circa 2008. the slaving paye middle. sure are not FF the most popular party again, we pixies are great crack. sure lets have a ol Bolshevik revolution now. fire on a few tee shirts in da Dail and off we go

I doubt that you do anything for a living Mooney. Like the rest of the sponging party you support.

That’s funny. Me and my employer work side by side. Should I strike for more since apparently he’s one of the capitalist elite and I’m a working class slave?

copy and paste copy and paste on every article. the working create an output. how do you think any company is funded. privately through owners capital. i.e. what the owner is entitled to after they have paid their staff. they take the risk that if the business does badly they potentially get nothing or go out of business. the employees dont. therefor the employees proportion should always be lower. for public enties its funded by taxpayers and subsidies which still comes from taxpayers where you get your logic is beyond reason. blah blah blah workers join a union come together and blaming the bankers. not all their fault but myopia fools like you can never see the difference or logic in society.

@Buster VL: You couldn’t seriously be referring to DB management.

Basically red thumbs. The 11.25% would be accepted. The extra’s are a totally different ball game. They will basically give DB the right to change anything they want in the next 3 years. Would you accept. ?

@The Viking: Agreed, why would you take 11.25% in exchange for all those extra terms and conditions? considering pre-conditions were off the table

Well my insurance rose 73% for more experience and never crashed in my life.

This means that govt services will increase in cost. So the govt will either have to tax more, bring back more austerity, or cut capital and infrastructure spending. Thanks transdev for setting the ” me too” ball rolling.

Where’s the I don’t know option??

@cholly appleseed: The attitude is now – if youre in an accident and its not your fault claim for as much as you can get – Its rotten. I know a psychologist who was scripting out symptoms to say in statements for “victims”. Claim culture is ruining the nation.
A van hit me at a junction – there was a small dint – I told him to drive on that it didn’t matter. I was called a fool by people I know for not claiming as much as I could for “whiplash” or whatever.
My Mother in law was knocked into a ditch by a car by an auld one, it was sorted with flowers and a box of roses. If that happened now there’d be claims court cases and millions.

A well publicized scam. Hopefully the government task force shock us all and do something with the insurance companies. I would love to see someone more intelligent than I pull apart the quoting systems and lay it out on paper. E.g penalty points = €100, ages 17-25 = €150, 1 liter engine = €100, and have a price on all factors in a quoting system. So you can build your own quote and plan accordingly. Transparency in short.

The gardai are not workers. Cite AAA billy.

As a small business owner I’d love for my salary to be back where it was 10 years ago! Not going happen anytime soon!

@Reg: When people have more money they spend it and small businesses increase turnover and profit. You should be hoping for a round of pay increases for the masses.

So did banks and lots of other industries but it sounds better to bitch about public sector workers getting everything whilst private sector workers get nothing.

A lot of bank workers lost their jobs. A 100% pay cut.

What electricians? All those on sites and you see around around are self-employed. Builders don’t have any electricians on payroll.

The electrical Union mandated a pay rise in basic rates charged. Engineering Union sought 5% increase last year. In fact, according to statistics is available 60% of workers received pay increases in 2015.
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/almost-60pc-of-workers-to-get-pay-rises-in-2015-30876650.html

In fact, the electrical contracting industry has agreed on a four-year wage deal which will see pay rates rise by more than 10% between 2017 and 2020. I would say that’s reasonable to be honest.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2016/07/18/electricians-agree-10-25-pay-rise-over-four-years/

@The Throwaway: sorry lads: that’s the UK you’ve referred, not Ireland, so irrelevant.
The majority of electricians in this country are self-employed sub-contractors, not employees.

Gravy train?, hilarious. No need to check out the facts. Just continue to rehash the governments divide and conquer propaganda.

Never the less John most electricians are union members and when most get it all get it. Builders wouldn’t last long if the Sparks walked off site. Which they all were close to doing.

John. That’s NOT UK, that’s Ireland.
In 2009 electricians secured a basic pay rise of 4.9%. There are outstanding issues around that, with strike actions etc. But they nevertheless looked for the pay rise.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/49pc-payrise-ruling-gets-electricians-back-to-work-26550424.html

@The Throwaway: 2009 ? You’re quoting something from 7 years ago ?

@James Odin: Since the taxpayer subvention for DB is minuscule, I don’t think you should worry too much about it. I know we drivers actually pay tax too so in a way, we subsidise our own jobs and the transport service being provided. The real obscene subsidies (billions) seem to be going to the US tech companies who are being subsidised by the fact they pay virtually no tax to the state. The public services are all being underfunded directly because of this fact. Some of you private sector workers seem to have delusions about the value of your jobs.

@Stephen Brady: Electrician pay is linked to other industries it is based on a wide range of other industries from the previous year so yea they got a increase because the previous year those other industries had increased, but we also took a paycut the following year as it is benchmarked & linked to other sectors, this is what should of happened to the Public sector linked to other sectors, as they rise, so would your wages as they decrease & the tax take decrease so would your wages.. but upward only mate..

In the real world, excessive pay demands can result in losing your job. The semi and public sector workers have their jobs protected come what may.

I think that should be stressed, Gardai are not looking for any pay increases or rises. They are looking for the reversal of cuts that were made on a ‘temporary financial emergency measures’.

If being by being an employer, Alan, you can coin it up, the you should become an employer. Nothing to stop you. I wonder how many AAA members are employers?

…show us the numbers of private sector employees on unions so.

Just under a third of employees in Ireland are union members. Specifically within the private sector the proportion of employees is about a quarter (24.9%).

See: http://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Countries/Ireland/Trade-Unions

For private sector union members see;
The National Workplace Surveys 2009, Volume 2, The Changing Workplace: A Survey of Employees’ Views and Experiences by Philip J. O’Connel, Helen Russell, Dorothy Watson and Delma Byrne, National Centre for Partnership and Performance, 2010.

A lot of workers have no protection from the greedy private sector employers while the employers have Ibec to protect them . Most staff in low paying jobs are groomed into accepting everything the Boss says this is the reason so many negative comments regarding bus drivers and Gardai are posted here . What I would say to them stop giving out go and join one of the groups

@Alan Scott:
So become an employer, Alan, and “Coin it up”.

Ted you would have to hire a load of clipboard merchants to keep track of who did what.

Why?

Surely their direct manager knows what they are doing and how they are doing, no?

Thinking that there is a need to hire 100s of “clipboard merchants” to manage performance reviews is another reason for a bloated and inefficient PS.

There are plenty of off the shelf and free to use tools that could help management to first set performance plans, track performance throughout the year and finally complete performance assessment at the end of the year. It’s not hard to do.

That’s all talk. You haven’t given anything concrete just platitude. Of course good workers should go further & get better rewarded than bad workers. That’s why we have promotions & specialisms. Good Doctors & Nurses are able to progress & specialise, similarly Gardai are able to move into specialised areas. Then there’s promotion up the ranks. So on and so on. But your idea of performance related pay doesn’t transfer to the majority of public services. You didn’t give any info as to what you consider performance. You have Gardai that specialise in purely community policing for instance. An awful lot of what they do is not & can’t be quantified by numbers, but if you ask the local community they find the service invaluable. How do performance pay relate visiting an elderly or disabled person that’s stuck in their own home? How do you performance relate pay to a nurse who spent the majority of her shift consoling a family? Rėtárdś in the street can easily say ‘better service should be rewarded’, well no śhït Sherlock; of course they should. But all you’re spouting at the moment is hyperbole. I’d love to see how society would react when they find out the Gardaí get a bonus for every arrest. Because your little Susie or Johnny drinking in the field won’t just be brought home with a stern word by a Garda with some discretion & cop on, they’ll be arrested & in time brought to a court…& all because it’s a performance related pay structure.

How is it decided who gets promoted for their good work in the PS?

How about applying the same criterion for pay rises?

Throwaway – you seem to think that performance is just related to how many of x, y and z did the worker do in a given period of time and can they do more.

Your idea of Gardai get a bonus pay per arrest is laughable.

How about a Garda performance pay review based on the following.

1. Customer satisfaction survey for local station. Based on results target areas of improvement year in year

2. 360 peer review of each individual Garda

3. Development plan based on the 360 feedback. I.e. Does to Garda need to improve their communication skills, time management, subject matter knowledge etc.

4. Set goals of completing x amount of training hours per year.

5. Set goals of being out on the beat for x amount of hour per week.

6. Research best practices of policing across the world and help deliver improvements to the Garda locally then nationally based on the research.

@Ted Logan: So what you seem to be saying is that a bus driver should be penalised for being delayed by traffic congestion, luas works etc. This is completely absurd and unrealistic .Maybe such performance monitoring systems work in your job but obviously not in a bus.
Also, if you’re going to mention passengers complaints per driver this is again absurd as drivers get blamed for delays that aren’t their fault but the passenger doesn’t understand this. The only staff member they see is the driver anyway so it must be their fault.

I would hope the company wouldn’t blame the driver for delays beyond their control.

But what can the driver do in those circumstances to turn a negative experience into a positive one? Be a friendly face. Apologise for the delay. It’s what the best drivers would do. And they should be rewarded.
I’ve been on plenty of busses where the driver doesn’t give a fiddlers about the comfort of the passengers. Grumpy from the moment you get on. Accelerating hard, breaking even harder.
I have also been on many busses where the driver was super friendly and made the journey as smooth as possible.

I know which driver deserves the pay rise.

@Ted Logan: You should go drive a bus and then you’d see the other side of it.

@Ted Logan: Yes, spending my whole day p*ssing in bottles every time I reach the terminus puts a big smile on my face. Twisting to the left constantly to face passengers on a non swivelling seat is really comfortable too. Don’t all customer facing employees have swivelling seats or stand. My employer really cares about me and my comfort all right.

100%agree with you Brendan and we have a Government who say they cannot interfere with the private market it’s a lottery for these companies while some of them play scrooge with their workers.

@Buster VL:
I’m talking about SKY, Rupert Murdock etc, not some ordinary Sky Installer who are victims of Sky GREED.

@Brendan Mason:

Well said Brendan, you never did believe in better.

@Buster VL: Don’t forget government advisors, make up artists, hairdressers, and heads of and members of quangoes.