Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
LAST UPDATE | 27 Aug 2018
Pope FrancisSource: Danny Lawson/PA ImagesLEADING CAMPAIGNER MARIE Collins has said the pope was not familiar with Magdalen Laundries or industrial schools, when she met with him on Saturday evening alongside other abuse survivors.
In the meeting with eight abuse survivors, the pope expressed astonishment that the laundries and industrial schools had ever existed, according to others present.
Those who met with him said Pope Francis was "taken aback" and "shocked" as to what went on at mother and baby homes, and professed to have "no idea" what a Magdalen Laundry was.
"I spoke to him about industrial schools and Magdalen Laundries, both of which he appeared to know nothing about," Bernadette Fahy, a survivor of the Goldenbridge orphanage in south Dublin who was in attendance at the meeting, told the Irish Times.
"He hadn't ever heard the concept before, that was quite shocking to me. He was very good at actually getting to the root of that, what was that, what were they, he had no idea of the purpose of them," she said.
Speaking to Miriam O'Callaghan on RTÉ Radio this morning Collins said that Pope Francis was "not clear on" Magdalen Laundries and industrial schools.
He had heard of mother and baby homes, Collins said - "it was more the Magdalen Laundries and industrial schools that were new to him - but he did want to know more about them, it wasn't that he was denying them or anything, he just wasn't familiar".
Speaking at the launch of the pope's itinerary back in June Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin told reporters the pope “has been and will be” briefed on the extent of abuse by the clergy and other Church members.
Archbishop of Armagh Eamon Martin last night told RTÉ that he wasn't sure "with so many countries" if the pope "really understood what this was about" with regard to the Pope's apparent lack of knowledge of institutions here.
"Clearly his meeting with survivors has really brought that home to him, and he was deeply moved by that particular account, and did mention it again today during the penitential rite of Mass, the shameful period in which church and society really colluded in making young women feel shame," he said.
The Church has to accept its share in responsibility for that and I do hope that those kinds of episodes are long behind us.
Minister for Children Katherine ZapponeSource: Niall CarsonKatherine Zappone, the children's minister, raised the issue of the Tuam Mother and Baby home with Pope Francis on Saturday.
Revealing in detail what she had told him this morning, she said she told him in Italian that she is responsible for the Tuam Mother and Baby Home where the remains of children were found in a sewage system.
“I hope the church will make reparations for its part in this shameful chapter. It is important and I will write to you in detail,” she said.
The minister said that the pope responded to her in English and thanked her for her words.
During a speech at Dublin Castle after meeting the minister, Pope Francis broke from his prepared script to refer to his meeting with Zappone.
“I thanked her, up to the point she touched my heart. This is why I wanted to repeat it afterwards,” he said.
Speaking to reporters on his flight back to Rome, the pope said that he will study a memorandum provided by the Children’s minister on the issue of mother and baby homes.
He said Zappone told him that authorities “found mass graves of children, buried children”.
“She told me, and she was brief: ‘Holy Father, we found mass graves of children, buried children, we’re investigating… and the Church has something to do with this.’ But she said it very politely and truly with a lot of respect. I thanked her to the point that this had touched my heart,” Pope Francis said.
In April, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin told RTÉ that he had told the pope personally about the Tuam Mother and Baby Home, where 796 babies and children died and were buried in a mass grave between 1925 and 1961, and that the pope had been visibly upset at hearing the detail.
At his Mass yesterday, which followed his Saturday meeting with survivors, the pope said:
“We ask forgiveness for the abuse in Ireland. Abuses of power, conscience and sexual abuse perpetrated by members with roles of responsibility in the Church.
“In a special way we ask pardon for all the abuses committed in various institutions run by male or female religious members of the Church and we ask for forgiveness for those cases of exploitation through manual work that so many young women and men were subjected to.
We ask forgiveness for the times that as a Church we did not show survivors of whatever kind of abuse compassion and the seeking of justice and truth through concrete actions. We ask for forgiveness.
You are putting a ton of pressure on teenagers to be successful for one exam. Years of hard work could be messed up if they have a bad day. Show us where else we do this? how many teenagers have committed or attempted suicide due to this exam?
the exam needs a reform, the whole education system needs a reform – 13 years of Irish and most people can’t speak a few words, never mind holding a conversation.
@Jim: Completely correct, the points system comes from a time when not a lot of people studied at 3rd level and demand was low. It doesn’t serve the needs of a 21st century education system where most school leavers continue to university.
@Bat Boy: the opposite is the case. There was no points system in the period up to the CAO. It was introduced precisely to ration demand objectively unlike what was already developing viz. an old boys network.
@Jim: My irish teacher in school was a Brother and obviously thought us religion also .. neatless to say i haven’t a bog about either
@Trent: He teach you English too?
@ecrowley ecrowley: Obviously not troll
@Brendan Greene: That’s really interesting, I didn’t know this and thanks for pointing it out.
Whilst my facts might be incorrect, I think my point still stands, the current system doesn’t work,The education system is too rote focused and it is an unequal system.
The swiss system works quite well. Anyone who passes matura (swiss LC) can study (almost) anything they want. Grades are not relevant. First term in uni, classes are massive, but those that dont put in the work are quickly found out and normal class sizes are achieved within the first couple of terms. The only downfall in this system and where ireland is actually better, is that there is no mature learning. No matura, no 3rd level.
@Jim: is maith liom cupán tae
@Jim: the burden of using Irish falls on us everyday folk but we choose not to.
“there has been a “national obsession” in Ireland with the “points race””.
The points system has created this obsession. It’s an archaic measurement that awards rote learning, does little to analyse important strengths like critical thinking & benefits the wealthy who can pay tutors to stuff information into Turlough after rugby practice.
It is time to overhaul the entire system and create a progressive measurement that appraises learners throughout secondary school.
@Bat Boy: good point…if we are to progress we need to understand the cause and the effect and know the difference
Another day another Simon Harris headline. Well done Jane great journalism. Simon will give you another scoop soon.
There is certainly better methods nowadays to measure success. A memory exam where you churn out repeated answers is no real way to measure one’s ability. It consists of looking up old answers and questions and repeating it over and over and hoping it pops up. It doesn’t teaches you how to think, critical examine, form arguments and refute others.
The focus is way too broad too.
What relevance has woodworking got to a future doctor?
Why does an engineer need to understand Irish?
These exams don’t define anyone. Schools are point driven and those who don’t make the grade made to feel worthless.
The obsession is not with points race but with university admission, so much so that we now have new universities coming out of the swamps, who, are now handing out such high grades to keep everyone feeling intelligent. The standard of education at third level in Ireland has collapsed unless the course is sponsored or overseen by outside commercial interests. That’s not what a university is. (The literacy of graduates is perhaps at 1980s 2nd level standard). The problem was within the college sector itself who wanted to be like Thatcher’s new universities but were still only polytechs in thought and procedure. Look at DIT….. still the same ole baloney unless you want to do architecture or repair glasses. They all wanted to be “lecturers” and what changed? Their address.
The Leaving Cert will change when the teaching unions decide to let it change.
Far from being the rich kids friend, the CAO points system is the poorer students’ friend or ally. All other systems will allow the ‘elites’ to make their sneaky little phone calls and ‘quiet word in your ear’ etc. All the continuous assessment/project work/interview etc is all open to abuse. The CAO, may be tough, but is essentially not open to abuse. No professors/politicians/moneyed folks etc, can get a single additional point for their little darling. Worth asking yourself why ‘privileged’ simon harris never misses an opportunity to badmouth CAO system. Hardly a man of the people. #You DontKnowWhatYouGotTillItsGone
Heard this the other day.
We in Ireland teach our kids to do exams and not educate them on the subject.
In Finland no state exams. And it works.
@Triton: Finland certainly get a good press and probably deserve it. What do you think of their system that farms half of 12 year olds to university and half into apprenticeships?
@Triton: That’s wrong. They have a high stakes final exam very similar to the LC. Its actually graded on deciles so only top 10% of scorers get the top grade etc. That exam is required for college. Colleges also set their own entrace exams as well that need to be studied for separately. So the idea that its some exam free utopia is just not accurate. Only about half of an age group go to an acedemic secondary school, the rest go to vocational schools. Which way you go – academic or vocational – is also based on an exam btw.
”A bad workman blames his tools” Of course the L.C. is not perfect but it is the best we have, hopefully just for the short term. Any alternative will only be a tweak on the L.C. because it is and has to be a ‘competition’. I have seen it from both ends and the difference between private and public education is, frankly, shocking.
In ‘public’ schools, the emphasis is more on the teacher passing on the information and hoping for the best exam results. Bad results have no consequences for the teachers. Teachers, seem to believe that their only job is to teach the curriculum, not the child. There is little emphasis placed on the confidence of the student. Just look at the ways schools handle bullying, disruptive children in the classroom, ‘discipline’ or even trying to encourage children to find their best talents.
Students in ‘private’ schools are encouraged every step of the way, bullying has zero tolerance, videos of class lessons and notes are given in addition to class time and free. The whole system is much more focused on the individual.
Some might say that this is all about money and aren’t I lucky, I am!!!!. But given that most of the teachers we have are trained together, why can’t both systems be the same? The Dept of Education and the teacher’s unions are more interested in trying to put the blame on everything else rather than their own inadequacies.
And too many parents are happy to be negative about the educational system and use schools as a babysitting service, rather than tackling the real issues but most importantly boosting the self confidence of their child and being positive about the brilliant education system we have.
Simon Harris did not even go to university and he’s somehow qualified to be a minister of higher education ? He only gained the health ministry because of loyalty to enda Kenny, and has done very little since to justify high office and has presided over more than a few disasters ,like the children’s hospital.
Snow flakes
Yes it is cruel. We don’t have the facilities to allow people do what they want to study. We should have smaller amount courses that are actually career relevant to facilitate all who want to do them instead of a point rat race system.
Only the weaklings are complaining and failing.
The leaving cert suits the well off who can pay for grinds and the perfect answers for their kids when they sit this memory test exam. In a normal work environment we process large amounts of information that we reference and are not expected to memorize. The leaving cert does not reflect this. Its a rigged system designed to open doors for the few into the high earning, high status degree courses.
@John: I don’t know the last time you spoke to a child doing their leaving cert. The amount of knowledge they acquire is phenomenal and compared to 20/30 years ago, they not only have acquired 10 times more knowledge but they can understand it, which is the key to a ” memory test” As I said previously, this is mostly about a child’s confidence and parents, teachers need to instill more confidence in children, rather than distracting from the real issues like ‘ rigged systems” Peer pressure plays a huge part in education and ensuring a safe school environment where children can blossom is the first priority. If a child is not doing well in school, there is a reason and that should be addressed and that is where supportive parents come in.
@BarryH: Not everyone should or will do well at school. The basics yeah. But most people will not be a whizz at calculus or Shakespeare. Just as most people won’t be able to replace a worn clutch or whatever. Everyone has different abillities and interests.
@Tom D: Couldn’t agree more with you Tom. It kills me to see some of my old schoolmates who were ‘classified’ as not been very bright by teachers and happy to see them now having found their niche in life and their inner self-confidence and thriving. Don’t you just hate your friends, sometimes LOL. Sometimes I ask myself the ‘What If’ question. What if they had found that confidence earlier in life? We can’t all be surgeons but we could have had fewer worries in our lives. Sorry if that sounds very idealistic but hopefully you get what I mean.
If we bring in continuous assessment you might not get something genuine. A test like that brings a lot of pressure but it gives a clear indication of an ability to prepare and accurately recall information. I’d like it reformed to award more critical thinking skills.
The points race is for the rich kids only. Just another example of poverty having no voice at all.
I said it before, and i’ll say it again.
I cannot believe that the man who couldn’t have been bothered to finish his college degree and who dropped out of higher education, is now the Minister of Higher Education.
Previous reporting such as “Harris, who studied Journalism at DIT Aungier St” was actually misleading and incorrect, as he dropped out half way through the course.
But hey, if you good with the gab, and can come up with soundbites such as “speed trumps perfection” then you will rise to the top.
We are looking at the next FG Leader here folks, and possibly the next Taoiseach in 6 years time.
You have been warned.
@UCD Trinity: I am no fan of Harris but this is just SF propaganda at its worst. I can think of several billionaires and intellects who didn’t go to college or dropped out of their courses, for many different reasons.
@BarryH: I think you are missing the point. To get a job in the higher education sector, even low administrative grades, one needs a third level college qualification. Yet this guy has no college qualification because he dropped out half way through his course. Yet he is handed the highest post within the Higher Education sector, that of Minister of Education.
Yes i agree, third level college is not for everyone, and some have gone on to be very successful that never attended college. My comment is not to suggest that everyone needs or should go to third level education. However, i will argue that to hold the highest post in the Higher Education Sector, one should, at least, have a basic third level degree of some sort. And remember, he is not of a generation like Richard Branson or Warren Buffet, he is relatively young, of the generation where third level qualification is seen as vital. Even tradesmen are now doing learning blocks in institutes of technology and colleges, and others who did not attend college full time are now doing so part-time whilst working. This guy did neither.
And to be frank, i wouldn’t let this guy run the corner chipper. He is over a decade in Government, and what has he done ? A failed Heath Minister, and in my opinion, a failed Higher Education Minister.
@UCD Trinity: I see your point but that is the way political appointments are made. Wrongly in my opinion. There is an election coming up soon and he is coming out now with all these pre-election statements to ensure his seat and probably bring Donnelly in with him. FG/FF!! Yo scratch my back sort of thing.
That lad is like a pimple on my body, that I know I have to squeeze
Its the seniors in dept of edication have been keeping this model for years advising whichever minister happens to be in power at the time against any change.
This sounds more like he’s going to say he’s got a plan in place and then he’s going to TRY and just take the money
have your say