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Fernando Teixeira dos Santos: Portugal's acting finance minister says his country needs financial aid. Armando Franca/AP
Portugal
Portuguese finance minister admits: 'We're going to need a bailout'
A third Eurozone country admits the need for foreign help after a new bond auction sends interest rates spiralling.
8.06pm, 6 Apr 2011
1.5k
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PORTUGAL’S FINANCE MINISTER has admitted that his country will require emergency financial aid, after a bond auction this morning saw the interest rates demanded of his government rise significantly.
Fernando Teixeira dos Santos - who remains in office in a caretaker capacity, despite his government’s resignation last month after it lost a crucial budget vote aimed at staving off the need for help – said this morning’s auction of treasury bills showed that market prices were too high for his country to sustain.
“In this difficult situation, which could have been avoided, I understand that it is necessary to resort to the financing mechanisms available within the European framework,” dos Santos said. His remarks came ahead of a statement from the acting prime minister, Jose Socrates, later tonight.
The country was forced into offering an interest rate of 5.9 per cent on 12-month bills auctioned this morning, while bills maturing in six months commanded an astonishing yield of 5.11 per cent. By comparison, an auction of identical bills last month resulted in interest rates of 4.3 and 3 per cent respectively.
Though today’s issue of new bills was successful, and ensured that Portugal would have enough cash to meet its obligations when a previous round of bonds matures in the coming weeks, the sudden spike in interest rates all but sealed the country’s fiscal fate in the wake of repeated cuts to Portugal’s credit rating in the past weeks.
Portugal, like Greece and Ireland before it, had been trying to resist taking EU and IMF funds – a move that could lock the country into several more years of budget cutbacks, further diminishing the standard of living in what is already one of the Eurozone’s poorest countries.
The country could, however, seek to arrange only a short-term funding package that would tie it over until a new government is appointed after elections on June 5.
The need for Portugal to dip into the EU and European Central Bank’s bailout mechanisms will also reawaken the debate on Ireland’s interest rate, as all parties will be anxious to ensure that the conditions of any Portuguese funding do not kill off any chance for a medium-term economic recovery.
The 5.83 per cent interest rate being charged on Ireland’s borrowings would compare favourably, however, to the 8.942 per cent rate currently demanded of Portugal for eight-year borrowing.
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It’d be a messy prosecution to take, because they’d need evidence that the nuns knowingly withheld food/medicine from them; evidence that would be very difficult to procure forty or fifty years after the acts..
If anyone’s interested in the law, wikipedia summarise it well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_(criminal_law)#Care_of_children_or_other_dependents
It was said In the Dáil last week. While the Archbishop is right when he calls for an investigation, will he also call for the Catholic church to fund it.
“Investigation”
If they investigate then they should persecute. Not another report just to tell us in more detail what’s already known. If there are over 800 bodies then there needs to be answers. Not information. Somebody is responsible and needs to be accountable. Each time something like this cones out the state apologises. The church was responsible here and they need to face up to these crimes because that’s what they are. There are human beings buried in an under ground tank !! Yet the church will stand back in arrogance and say nothing and answer nobody AGAIN !!
You would wonder how these so called Christian nuns lived with themselves after what they did /or saw in these Homes, Industrial Schools and Laundries and didn’t do what their Catholic & human rights beliefs would have been; teachings and you would hope/think their moral fiber told them to do, but didn’nt??? God Almight Why????
And, a church that is supposed to be looking after the needy; how it is allowed its employees to persistently behave in this way over many generations, it beggars belief, it really does.?
In any other employment workplace, these people would have been out on their ear, but the RCC protected such people, why??? They are essentially only empolyees………..
To the 795 innocents RIP, that we know of so far, you are not forgotten and never either I am sure by your mothers, such anguish, hardship and pain they went through………….what about the fathers? ??
Hopefully, the truth will finally come out, TG my grannie isnt alive to witness what the RCC has become, a church she so believed and had such faith in..
If those responsible for the abuse and neglect of children really believed in the god that they profess to serve – there’s no way they could do this..
Of course, that is – if they didn’t go to confession and say their rosary as penance..
Christianity ended when the roman emperor Constantine declared it to be an official religion of Rome, after that it became about wealth and power. Of course there were a few individuals who were notable exceptions, but they were indeed few and far between. The teaching of the Christ were and are, still being largely ignored, by the church.
Also, somewhere along the way, the celibate men of the cloth became obsessed with sexuality. Go figure.
Interesting how he didn’t bother to call for anything 2 years ago when he was told about it then, aside from a low key mention at McGill summer school.
My mother had me at the tender age of 16. Luckily, our family rejected outside pressure and took me under their protective wing and wouldn’t let the church near us. Without going into detail, and despite obvious hardships at the time, my mam was a fighter and we’ve lived very happy lives since. But the anger I feel at what might have been, had my family not been so headstrong, so protective, so loving. What could have happened to us? Every family in this country should be up in arms over this, the latest in a long line of revelations. These events happened too recently for us to dismiss it as history. Criminal investigations need to be held. The church needs to answer and pay for its crimes. And people on this forum who have attacked me before for my atheist views can now see why I hold them. We do not need a church to tell us how to be good people, good people…just are. I can never express exactly how much respect I have for my grandparents, aunts and uncles and cousins. Sorry for the rant, but these articles bring me to tears for those babies who weren’t as lucky as I was.
I should also say, how much respect I have for my mam and dad. Unmarried at the time, blissfully married now, and have shown me what it takes to be the best person i can be and never care about anyone who judges me. Its a lesson every child should learn, but in a different way to us. Justice will never be served legally, I know that, but at least communally, the change of attitudes in the populace is something I find satisfaction in.
While I agree that Constantine changed it all to suit himself (he even used his own Image as the Jesus you see now) we can never know the teachings of Jesus nor can we know if he actually existed. Some think he was created by Constantine based on a few older gods (Mithra, Zeus and Krishna). I reckon if any of the hierarchy of that church really believed any of it they would be doing much more to stop the disgusting behavior of it’s members.
That’s the bit I don’t get.. If I have ever harmed someone, even by accident – I have asked them what I can do to make amends. Not because of fear of hell, because my conscience wouldn’t let me forget.
How can these people claim a moral authority when it appears they don’t even have consciences?
all county homes should be investigated. My uncle died at 24 days old from marasmus which is basically stravation. He was taken into the care of the state from birth, along with my father and other siblings. Where is the justice for him
Martin and the rest of the Catholic Church in Ireland are relics from the past and they need to be eradicated from society. Who on earth could possibly say that God would want these cretins as his representatives on earth. The church needs reforming if it is going to survive and it can start with removing the power the Catholic Church has.
If ever proof was needed that we are not under the guidence of any compassionate or loving deity, here it is and therefore those who profess to speak on its behalf or act upon its desires should be taken aside and told to have sex and leave!
It defies words. I’m lost here. How could people of the church and those of the state responsible for its citizens do such things to children. Time to strip the church if it’s tax status and make it pay compensation to the families of those affected. But that would be such a smAll price for the depravity this so called church. And what’s frightening us the organisations that would take us back to the “teaching of the church”. GO AWAY YOU SICK fCUKS
Oh for goodness sake grow up ! So much emotion; so little thought and even less knowledge and understanding. Yes the events described are shocking and appalling. Everyone would agree. Does saying so make everyone feel morally superior? It changes nothing. Yes illegitimate children were treated like shit. So were their mothers. And guess what … most of Irish society felt and behaved this way, including our own ancestral families in the main. Read our social history and get off your high horse. Third world poverty, rampant disease, undue respect for authority, control, sexual and class repression, endemic shame, overt religiosity and backwardness. We were the poorest and most disease ridden society in Western Europe. Fear was the dominant feature of the lives of many. Moral judgement and scapegoating was the order of the day. Ireland began to change in the 1960s but it was a terribly painful transition. But now we are “free” and have discovered it was all the fault of religion, specifically the Catholic Church. Partly true,of course but mainly a lie. Most of Irish society colluded. Yes. The toxic consequences of dire poverty, unreformed religion and anti-intellectualism. And one thing hasn’t changed. The rush to judgement. Moral superiority and finger pointing to deflect from our own evident foibles. And the refusal to look in the mirror. We are still so 1920s while dressed in a 21st century veneer. Grow up Ireland!
As an atheist and humanist I’m appalled by this. But it reflects not just on the church but on Irish society.
Until that is accounted for there Wil be no real investigation into this.
@john r. That has to be the worst comment iv seen on the journal bar none, you blabber on for far to long about nothing other than what seems to be criticizing other people for expressing horror sadness and grief about hundreds and possibly thousands of dead children discarded in the most inhuman way claiming that they are only doing so to feel morally superior!! Your clearly the prize clown of your family!
As for your other comments in relation to Irish society being at blame for this travesty well the fact is Irish society was this way because of the guilt and fear that the church imposed on the people through its dominance and abuse if the people that it gained by taking advantage of them while suffering through rampant poverty and extreme hardship, it is you who needs to do the research, your opinionated but ignorant.
Also note there is no questions in this so no need for a reply, iv read all I need and want to read from you, go look for attention elsewhere, I’m a little dissapointed with myself for giving you this attention but someone had to say it. Your a sad fool.
J r, emotion is what drives us as human, it makes us tick. Saying grow up is fickle, we bond on emotion, are you defending what’s happened. We know our past and it’s not too distanced, but as human beings can we not be appalled at the atrocities of a group who proclaim love, peace and happiness to all, whilst doing the opposite?
John r. I know my history and I know it wasn’t the public who decided that these children should be institutionalised and then abused. It was the church and state and yes I am pointing fingers and judging. These people and their institutions should be brought to justice. Just because it was a long time ago does not negate the fact that those children deserve a voice to fight for them.
John Mitchell, know your history all you want. If you can’t interpret it you’re lost.
State, institutions…. Words like these translate to society. Ireland is not unique in cases like this. Society needs to accept this, not just a wing of scapegoats.
Yes William. We can and should be appalled. My main point is that being appalled changes nothing and offers little insight into the period. Absolutely let’s have an investigation. What happened was shocking. However having an investigation which ignores the role of broader society will not help us to grow as a society and learn from the mistakes of our collective past.
Paddy, I was only a few months old at the end of this period now under investigation but I grew up in the 60s and 70s and remember the period well. I honestly don’t know if you have the same perspective or not. Ireland was a confessional State in my view well into the 1980s. It is not just Church and State/Government. Neither of theses could have behaved the way they did for such a long period of time without the enthusiastic endorsement or acquiescence of broader society. And that is precisely what. Is so sad about this period and so horrific. Many brave people took a stand and spoke out about the nature of our society and they were attacked and marginalised including by the broader public. More took no stand at all or supported the status quo. If we fail to see our own hand in this (or the hands of our parents and ancestors) then we cannot change as a society as we will have failed to learn. Saying it was all the fault of the Church/State may be a convenient narrative but we should avoid such a narrative and look at the truth of what happened. This does not prevent the relative apportionment of blame and responsibility. We should do what West Germany did post-war and examine our entire narrative since independence and lose the self loathing. Unfortunately this will be a profoundly uncomfortable experience which is why many wish to avoid it. Let us have the truth and the whole truth and let us stop editing our experiences for the sake of convenience.
If the Archbishop wants to identify the culture that enabled these hideous crimes he need look no further than the doors of his own institution. Not to mention his own generation.
The deaths related to malnutrition are a crime. That translates to me that a mother want let feed her baby as she didn’t have her work/chores done. It’s a disgrace what those nuns put those women and babies through.
Babies die of malnutrition when they aren’t being fed sufficiently. I have a baby of my own and when he cries he’s fed. These babies needs weren’t being tended to because their mothers were limited to the time they were allowed to spend with them during the day.
John van diaper. Going to the limits of his limited knowledge to fudge all issues and defend the Catholic Church at any cost. Perhaps he one of those PR people we have heard talk about. So what’s the wage like fir defending the indefensible John?
Philomena, like all movies. Is made to sell tickets and make a profit.
I didn’t see it, by the way.
So by the nature if the industry, it must get attention.
Look, nobody doubts that these homes were grim, very grim.
But the accusations being thrown around here are really something.
@john. How many more horrible history’s do we need before we can all acknowledge that the Catholic Church should have nothing more to do with children under any circumstance. It truly is unforgivable.
There are no accusations being thrown about John. Factually babies died of malnutrition and mothers were being denied access to their children. Wake up you are delusional.
To be fair to the RC church it wasn’t just them. Much the same happened to kids in the Bethany Home and I’m sure in other Protestant mother and baby homes. Both RC and Protestant homes should be investigated.
So basically what Diarmuid Martin is saying is, “It’s not the Catholic church’s fault that this happened, it’s the public’s fault because whistle-blowers didn’t stop us.”
Where were the police? They knew about the abuses. Where were the inspectors? They reported back to the government and they knew and still did nothing. The guards are very quiet about this, the commissioner, aren’t they because they know full well they should have stopped this. It is true that it should have been stopped as so many reports but it was not. I have serious questions about them as well as they allowed the abuses to get worse without stopping them. He is right in a way that other bodies should have stopped them. This really beggars disbelief on the state bodies not protecting the children in state care from bad institutions.
In the UK Christopher Booker has been blowing the whistle on the taking of thousands of children by the ‘authorities’ but he has been fighting an uphill battle as all involved close ranks just as we are seeing here in Ireland. The attempts to divert from the truth as seen in some of the comments right here suggests that the cover up will continue.I think we will soon witness the collapse of the façade that many well known people in public life here hide behind.
Hallie, it would have been suspected that people died here because of poverty on those days, some from abuses, etc. The whole thing is unacceptable really and the government had this report since 1974. Have no idea why they didn’t deal with it then as those people would be alive and can be arrested. Now they are all dead. It is wrong and should not be happening anywhere in the world. It would not surprise me if it happened in other countries but it should not at all.
This evil was not investigated because the usual threat was and still is used “Maybe it would be better for your career/family/ business/etc. if you said no more about the matter”
Ava, if we’ve learned anything in recent decades it’s that the RCC will do anything to protect themselves. Remember victims of sexual abuse being threatened and sworn to secrecy?
We know that there were plenty of whistle-blowers, including Fr Flanagan, but they were tilting at windmills against the might of the church. It is complete hypocrisy of Diarmuid Martin to turn around now and say that they didn’t exist, but should have existed and stopped the catholic orders from doing what they did.
Now. Let’s try and put ourselves back then..
The Catholic Church has a strong hold over people, that hold is strong enough to turn parents against their own daughters in their time of need and send them away to “atone for their sins” with the nuns.
Who knew everyone’s darkest secrets? Who was trusted with all the worst things you had done?
We often hear of how Scientology keep a record of all your darkest secrets to be used against you if you speak ill of their church – I wonder where they got that idea from?
Are we to believe that the nuns and the priests didn’t have good working relationships and a mutual interest in protecting their church?
We know those coming forward about clerical abuse were threatened – is it such a leap to consider that those who may have tried to take action would not have suffered a worse fate given that back then the church held considerably more power than it did when the abuse scandal came to light?
The cruelty is beyond comprehension!!! Inspectors 1947 report reveals the extent of abuse at nuns care home. “The damning 1947 report, compiled after a visit to the home, paints a picture as grim as the harrowing accounts of starved children that emerged from Romanian orphanages after the fall of Ceausescu in the early 1990s.
It tells how children were suffering from malnutrition and in many instances were pot-bellied – a sign of starvation. The report records children as having wizened limbs, with many described as being ‘mentally defective’.
One child is described as ‘a miserable, emaciated child with a voracious appetite and no control over bodily functions’, while another is reported to be ‘emaciated, with flesh hanging loosely on limbs’.
It also reveals that the home was crowded with 271 children and 61 mothers living there at the same time. This number exceeded the ‘desirable’ level of 243, according to the inspector.
Of the 31 infants examined, 12 were described as being ‘emaciated and not thriving’. The stark report also records one child with abscesses on hips and boils on their body.”
“It has always seemed to be the form of religion which mattered in successful conversion in Ireland: observance of apparent piety, asking no questions, and accepting ignominy, suffering, and deprivation, to be “offered up” in the hope of reward after death. To stray publicly in a world of oppressed ignorance where sex was the only sin, could have only one response: the abandonment of a child by her parents to her “shame”, and ritual retribution from women who themselves had seen their own womanhood wither on the vine as enforced brides of Christ. Add the sin of poverty to the mix, and the recipe becomes toxic.”
And the fathers of these children walked away. There must be a fair number of now elderly “fathers” still hiding behind a veil of silence observing the outcomes of their cowardice. The poor un married mothers became outcasts whilst the fathers married someone else and made happy families. It takes two to make a child.
True about the fathers. Heard was a guy around here in the 1950′s. He got alot of girls pregnant and I don’t have to tell you where they ended up.. and he carried on as normal.
You have got to remember a lot of these women were victims of incest and rape!! My sister knew a woman who was in one of these homes whilst she gave birth and one nun in particular was telling her about some of the tragic stories. The nun said too many of these women were raped by their fathers or other family members…
I don’t know about that. There was a family I grew up with. The dad had two brothers both of whom managed to get girls pregnant. Both brothers denied their kids and the respective women went into the mother &baby homes to have their children. Funny thing though, no woman ever went near either of those men. They died bachelors. There were similar stories around from other parishes where men had done the same thing. S maybe justice was served in a way?
As long as we point at the church we will never get to the truth of this.
This is a societal issue. To point only at the church is to avoid looking in the mirror.
It’s not in any way acceptable in today’s standards but was it at some time something that Irish society knew of and turned a blind eye to?
It looms that way.
Btw I’m very much anti religious. I just think this is broader than religious institutions.
Between the ages of 8 and 10 years I lived on the Navan Road within walking distance of the Mother & Child’s Home there. Even as a small child I knew “bad women lived there”. To me it was a jail. I hadn’t a clue what bad women were though. Presumably some Christian adult told me.
An old man told my friend who told me that shocking things happened in his neighbours house when he was a child in Clare in 1925.
This must be investigated!
You make light of a very serious situation John. No smiley face this time though. If you were not so sincere in your delusion I would think you were a troll.
Charlie. I’m not making light if it. I’m simply asking why is this particular site all of a sudden so important. There are many more sites equally worthy if I section.
But to what end?
Of inspection….
All I’m asking is why is this site more important that the 1000s of more recent murders in the North?
Or any of the 1000s of paupers graves in Ireland
What makes this one so special?
Do we go back to 1920? 1820? When would be a good time to stop.
My argument has nothing to do with the Catholic Church .
Yes John but there are ongoing investigations into the murders in the North. The paupers graves date back hundreds of years to pre-famine times. This situation that has come to light is still in living memory of people in Ireland. There are people alive who remember these places and the conditions in which the children lived and died. It is living history. That’s what makes it relevant.
@ William I’d say the bad people were the nuns only back then they were regarded as powerful women and not women who could have proper relationships. They then took out their frustrations on the vulnerable. When I was a kid in the fifties I thought there were men women and nuns! The longer I live the more I believe I was right!
There would likely still be women alive who were in that home. Perhaps some whose children died.
As has been pointed out there ARE investigations into what went on in the North, sure wasn’t Gerry Adams being questioned over Jean McConville there right before the elections? And there are numerous reports that have been conducted over the years.
Why is it you are so eager for this part of our past to be forgotten about?
These homes were funded by the Irish government they paid the religious institutions to look after and care for these people the religious institutions built up a huge amount of money and a huge property portfolio from the money they obtained from not only the Irish government but also from donations from the Irish people who to be fair at the time did not have it.
It sickens me to think that these religious orders ran a multi million pound industry based on the poverty and cruelty they dished out to the innocent women and children of Ireland. If right was right all of the money and property that these religious orders built up through the inhumane way that they treated the innocent should be taken back all lands owned by these orders should be taken from them and either sold off or used to benefit the future generations of Irish and also pay for the proper burials of all of those affected.
Shame on them
Have you realised this. They are all dead those who abused. Why didn’t they deal with this in 1974 when there was a report in government at that time. Then they been arrested and locked up. Now, they are dead. It is so wrong to leave it so long like that.
Are you for real? Do you think anyone would have had the guts to go up against the church back then? You seem to be forgetting the power they held over our nation.. Even when the abuse scandals broke they threatened the victims – and that was after their power had begun to wane. Those threats would have been far more scary in the 70s, y’know – back when they wouldn’t even allow contraceptives to be sold because of the churches stance on it.
” 60. The Committee expresses serious concern that in dealing with child victims of different forms of abuse, the Holy See has systematically placed preservation of the reputation of the Church and the alleged offender over the protection of child victims. The Committee is particularly concerned that while the Holy See recognized in its written responses and during the interactive dialogue the primary competence of judicial authorities, it has continued to address these cases through Canon Law proceedings which contain no provision for the protection, support, rehabilitation and compensation of child victims. The Committee is also particularly concerned that:
(a) Child victims and their families have often been blamed by religious authorities, discredited and discouraged from pursuing their complaints and in some instances humiliated, as noted especially by the Grand Jury in Westchester, the Ryan Commission in Ireland and the Winter Commission in Canada;
(b) Confidentiality has been imposed on child victims and their families as a precondition of financial compensation; and
(c) Although it has extended its own statute of limitations, the Holy See has in some instances obstructed efforts in certain countries to extend the statute of limitation for child sexual abuse.”
Ok then, the cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.. Notice they mentioned the Ryan report, what’s your reason for disregarding that?
They didn’t prevent the famine?
Over 2,000 babies and young children at a number of Irish orphanages linked to the mass baby graves scandal were injected with a vaccine for diphtheria in the 1930s, it has been revealed. The children were used as guinea pigs on behalf of drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome. No evidence of consent has been discovered and there are no records of how many children became ill or died as a result.
The discovery was made by Irish historian Michael Dwyer, of Cork University’s School of History, when he trawled through thousands of old medical records. The illegal trials – consisting of a one-shot injection of the drug – took place before the vaccine was made available for commercial use.
“What I have found is just the tip of a very large and submerged iceberg,” says Dwyer. “The fact that no record of these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London, suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to government, municipal authorities, or the general public.”
Jamie
Stories never lose anything in the telling!
First let us remind ourselves that the concept of “consent” as we understand it today in jurisprudence terms never existed. However once a person in authority permitted the use of vaccines on the children then permission was both sought and granted . Secondly, the very fact that vaccines were being used , even on an investigational basis , in Mother and Baby units implied that there were medical services available to the residents of these Institutions.
Richard.
The Bon Secours order are trained nurses generally – that’s what marks them out. Sort of like how Loreto nuns are in the education business. So of course there was medical help available.. Has anyone suggested there wasn’t? The fact that these women trained in midwifery and nursing managed to host such a whopping infant mortality rate would not fill one with much confidence about their abilities however.
In 2010, the Minister for Health said that the Government had no evidence that any child had contracted a serious illness as a result of the trials. If children had died as a result of the vaccine trials we’d know about it. Therefore, the trials were much less serious than what Dr Mengele did.
Ciaran, genuine question here – are you able to admit that the church have been involved in shady dealings and went to great lengths to cover these transgressions up?
Because one would get the impression from your comments that you are of the opinion that all of these atrocities are made up.. Even when faced with official documents you deny their content.
I’m wondering are you in denial or just a really devout apologist.
I’m not denying that the Church covered up child sexual abuse and moved paedophile clerics around and regarded unmarried mothers with contempt. My point with regard to the vaccine trials is that they are not serious as some people have portrayed them to be.
Right, because the nuns gave the ok, you reckon it was fine.
Any other trial they would need parental consent – were there other kids registered in clinical trials? Ones who hadn’t gone through these institutions?
Because a lot of these children were taken from their mothers, not surrendered.
Do you not see those kids as worthy of the same respect of other kids? Do you not disagree with the thinking that allowed these nuns to rationalise their maltreatment of them?
And please don’t give me the whole “it was a different time” spiel, it’s getting old. Either you love one another as Jesus loved you or you have no business calling yourself Christian.
The vaccine trials were wrong but they were not criminal offences because they did not cause death or injury to the children. Therefore, they are less serious than what Dr Mengele did.
Right, so because worse has happened that makes this ok?
And the fact that there is no evidence is part of the problem. There’s supposed to be records kept and to the best of my knowledge the disappearance of these records is the cause for concern.
The fact that there’s no evidence means that the doctors and nuns who were involved are entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. That is how our legal system works. Ireland doesn’t do show trials.
Don’t the religious orders know it.. Interesting how many of their records vanished isn’t it? Isn’t that the reason given for the incomplete nature of the MacAleese report? And goodness knows what else..
The Germans and Israelis are still hunting down concentration camp gaurds and anyone associated with these atrocities,even though they are in their mid 90s by now. We applaud them for this ,so why should our version of the Vatican death camp gaurds be let off because they are old now??
Willful neglect leading to manslaughter or infantcide has no statute of limitations.
When it becomes obvious that the shepherds were in fact the wolves they were warning everybody about
the wolf-shepards pretend they didnt know that they were the wolves. say they are different now.
Would that “full bodied investigation” resemble the investigation the Catholic church never called for when Sean Ryan buried the indiscretions of Brendan Smyth.
Love how these holy rollers cherry pick their battles.
You had the right first name but the wrong surname. It was Cardinal Brady, who was Fr Brady back in 1970, who administered the oath of secrecy to two of the boys who were abused by Smyth.
No confusion though really- both are the dark priests of the same death cult and wear the garb to let you know that you before the court are dead to the sea. Barristers are of course the soul reapers. etc.
Don’t think Diarmuid Martin realises most people were terrified of the so called Church Hierarchy in those times. Read Gene Kerrigan’s article in the back of today’s Sunday Indo. He told it like it was. As we have seen lately we still shun WhistleBlowers in this Country.
I listened to the interview and I was shouting at the radio the very point you are making. Martin, several times said it was society at the time, but that society was formed by and in the image of the church. He grew up in ballyfermot around the same time as I did, he couldn’t not know that.
Charlie, am I the John you refer to? Fair point. Friday was the first time I commented on the Journal.
It is truly depressing reading the stupid, hate filled, angry comments on here. Anyone rational and reasonable is abused.
I suppose it allows people to vent, maybe that’s a good thing. Facts and reason are unnecessary.
Seriously, you must think the same from time to time?
Anyway, I think I’ll never again even read these comments, not to mind write one.
Cheers, John
And plenty of old men now in their dotage were nazi death camp gaurds in their teems and twenties when the holocaust happened too.Its no excuse Ciaran.The novice would have known just as much back then as the Mother Superior.Even as a novice they could have protested and walked away as they were not ordained sisters,but they didnt….Why??FEAR of losing “respectability”in the eye of their fammlies,their community and having a position of power as well.Even as a lowly novice or sister,it gave your fammily a certain social and political pull in that grim Ireland of the1920s to 1980s.
It is highly unlikely that the DPP will prosecute nuns who worked at these mother-and-baby homes and who are still alive. It would also be impossible to determine cause of death of people whose remains were buried at least 50 years ago.
To all the god squadders. Catholicism is the worst cult to ever hit these shores. I am so appalled at the hypnotic rhetoric spewing from your traps about all the good work of the church has done in light of these appalling tragedies. These are mass graves akin to those of war crimes but as soon as the sanctity of your beloved cult is questioned all logic goes out the f#ckin window. Have some humility and shame on all of you. The demise of this wretched institution I welcome dearly and anticipate greatly.
Its a pity you are so ignorant and full of hatred when it comes to people having a faith which you dont or cant understand you should learn to be tolerant of others, you might live a more fulfilling life, bitterness is not good for the human condition.
Sean, how do you know Myles doesn’t have an understanding of your faith, 90% of us were dragged through school indoctrination from the age of 4, and in my experience non-believers and atheists have a far greater understanding of so-called ‘holy books’ and the history of the major world religions. I think you’ll find it’s the drones who kneel, sit and stand and obediently listen to an agent of The Vatican every Sunday that are the ignorant ones. Just because the catholic church can’t imprison or torture Myles to death for his views any more, doesn’t mean he’s wrong.
“Its a pity you are so ignorant and full of hatred when it comes to people having a faith ”
Hilarious Sean.
I’m an anti theist and I know plenty about your “faith” I would actually go so far to say I know more about your “faith” than many of the people that claim to be part of said faith. I mean it would be quite ridiculous of me to claim to be anti- something if I have no understand of that something.
Sadly for you it’s your “faith” that gives you that false sense of moral authority where you believe you can accuse people of being ignorant and hate filled because they don’t “faith” as you put it.
I wouldnt expect you to understand my comment, you are equally ignorant and intolerant as myles, someone has different views to the likes yourself so they must be brainwashed in your mind.
You are ignorant les, we dont all have the same faith or are part of the same church or even have no church at all but people like you like to push your your idea of what is right about having a faith or not, I dont try and tell people they should or shouldnt have a faith, I dont assume you are brainwashed or are sick if you do or dont have a faith, I dont assume to have a high moral authority, live and let live thats how I live my live, you just cant accept people have a different view, a lot of hypocrites in irish society these days, your only problem with people like myself is that we are members of the catholic church a church you dont agree with or like.
Sean I never assumed you were brainwashed,I know for a fact you are.Defending this evil institution that covers up rape,abuse and murder of children. So if you are not brainwashed then you are a very sick individual that needs help.
@ Sean, how are you abiding by your self-proscribed motto of ‘live and let live’ if you have judged multiple people on this thread of being ignorant and intolerant? It’s okay for you to slate other commenters but when they question your viewpoint they’re the ones being intolerant? I have no problem with someone accusing me of being whatever they want or disagreeing with my views, that’s what debate is all about, just don’t be a hypocrite.
Give examples of when I defended the wrong doings of the catholic church, im defending my right to have a faith and to be a member of the catholic church and as a normal decent Christian I have on many occasions expressed my disgust at the wrong doings of the Catholic church, I would even go as far as to suggest that catholics in this country are these days being persecuted for want of a better word by people like you because people like you have a grievance with the catholic church, people like you are as bad as the clergymen who damaged the catholic church and committed these crimes.you damage society by being so intolerant.
I accept people have different views to myself, I havent slated anyone which is hilarious coming from you by the way, debate is one thing, comments on here are not they are insults and racist remarks towards catholics to which when directed to me I have responded, look up the definition of ignorants and intolerance and you will see that my observations were correct, look up hypocrite while you are at it.
I’ll post this again here, two catholics on this thread think it’s a race, very worrying;
Here’s an appropriate quote for you and all of the other Catholic ‘victims’;
“I’ll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.
And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.”
Glad I made you laugh but I guess the comment went way above your head, dont worry you’ll get it next week I suppose, where are the examples of my defence of the wrong doings of the church I notice you ignored that one.
I will gladly admit I am ignoring that particular point to concentrate on your “racist remarks towards Catholics”. No amount of time can pass or under any circumstances will Catholicism ever be a racist. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Your defence of the church is this victimization claim of racism against Catholics. The victimization card is a very common mechanism used by the religious when defending their religion. So in fact not only have you helped me prove that particular point, you have also proven that you are so indoctrinated in Catholicism that you actually believe you are part of another race and people that speak out against the church are racist LOL :-)
I guess your completely right, I admit it its all my fault , you caught me out there, I as you said did these things, only thing I was born in 79, but your still correct regardless, you still believe you are not ignorant or intolerant ??
Im glad you admitted ignoring the question, you cant give examples because there are none, I made the comments earlier and because im catholic and no other reason you feel you have a right and your mates on this thread to insult people of different beliefs , god help our society if this is what is ahead of us, ignorance and intolerance, you and your mates have a lot in common with the catholic clergy of old and you insult me thats laughable but revert back to the racist remark all you want as you dont have a responce to the latter.. (I dont know what im talking about mmmmmhhhhh!!!)
Yes Sean I did ignore it right up until the point where I addressed it in the second paragraph.
I will keep reverting back to it Sean because you actually think Catholicism is a race. This means that not only do you not know the definition of racism,you actually don’t know what the definition of religion is either. So in short you are part of something you know very little about,yet with this lack of knowledge you felt compelled to comment.
I will admit,like you said,that “racist remarks towards Catholics” did go over my head, but then nonsensical comments usually do.
Examples, examples nowhere to be found , guess you just dont like catholics even the ones who openly agreed the catholic church did wrong and should be punished,so there lies the question, do you hate the catholic race (thats for you les)I guess you aint ignorant or intolerant after all .
Sean why do you keep repeating the same words. Your whole victimization act is in the defence of the church,is what you religious do,you claim every one is ignorant and intolerant,when they remind you that you are a member,support and fund an institution responsible for raping,abusing,torturing and murdering little children. The reason you are commenting here in the first place is to defend your Catholicism. The fact you are here continually commenting,defending should be example enough,as I have already quite clearly pointed out to above.
As for being calling me ignorant, at risk at harping on this point, but thinking the religion you are part of is a race, is ignorance bordering on stupidity Sean. The fact that you are now referring it as a race once again proves my point.
No Sean I don’t hate Catholics,I hate religion because of the effects on people,which you have kindly assisted me in proving today. You made a complete fool of yourself while trying to defend Catholicism,how many more examples do you need?
Ah les me oul flower , I didnt claim to be anyones victim least of all yours, please dont talk of stupidity because you dont understand my comments so best leave stupidity alone , the facts are simple , I have faith in a religion, as you put it, you hate religion, there for you resort to insults against a person because they are a member of a religious community at best that makes you a bigot, the difference between you and me is, I might not agree with your views on religion but I accept them, you on the other hand refuse to accept peoples different views and insult them and that makes you intolerant in the least, I hope you havent been blessed by god and given the gift that is children because you will twist their minds, unfortunately for you les you are exactly like the clergymen that your friend dungeon talked about, people like you whom came to power in the worlds history have attempted genocide of people because they thought they were inferior, I dont want you to change your belief system you have, just accept we dont all have the same and be tolerant.
“please dont talk of stupidity because you dont understand my comments”
Nobody understands your comments Sean because you have no idea what you are talking about. I thought we have already covered that,so the rest of your comment is meaningless
” people like you whom came to power in the worlds history have attempted genocide of people”
More proof that you have absolutely no idea what you are part of Sean. You should read the history of Catholicism Sean, because once again you have made a complete fool of yourself here LOL :-)
It did Sean O Keffe.
@sean so not willing to answer the question when did Catholics become a race? You just realised how stupid a comment you made, go on admit it.God will forgive you or some other sky faery will.
Read the comments slowly, let your brain kick in, some people are slower than others but we are all different and thats normal, dont get too upset, maybe tomorrow or the next day we can continue when youve had time to study the comments and you realise that I agreed with the comment calling for a full investigation with judicial powers and didnt defend the church in anyway shape or form, you know where I am so when you finally understand what I said even the racist remark give me a shout, GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER .
Of course it was an idiotic misuse of the word but im busy winding up the idiot known as les who is such an even bigger idiot than me that he convinced himself I didnt realise how stupid it was to use the word racist the second I sent it.
“debate is one thing, comments on here are not they are insults and racist remarks towards catholics to which when directed to me I have responded”
There is no misunderstanding, no ambiguity or hidden meaning to your comment. It’s you backtracking because, how embarrassing it would be for a self proclaimed Catholic to be corrected by a godless anti theist about their own religion. Your dishonesty is plain to see my friend.
Of course it was a misuse of the word, godless you maybe but correcting me on my religion dont think so les, of course using a word incorrectly is stupid , whats more that wasnt important for me because you where lying about me defending the church, care to give examples now apart from victimization as a defence as you put it but then victimization as a mechanism when defending the church?? Any examples, dont confuse, me defending my right as a catholic with defending the church now.
No way, I admitted the misuse of the word racist now you have to answer my question but rather than admit to lying about me defending the church so instead you disappear, your dishonesty is obvious my friend, thats the measure of the man that is LES BEHAN.I think im gonna miss u.
Les you’d have more satisfaction arguing with the Bugs Sean’s company exterminates . It’s been absolutely hilarious watching him squirm you owned his ass ! LOL
Why am I not surprised your here, we had a discussion before and as I recall you stopped responding because you started to trip over your bull, of course you watched your the same entity,les and b.bishop on the same side no surprise there, hows the world of bigot? U shocked me b.bishop you research names good for you, did u like my pic, I hope I didnt turn you on.
convenient memory loss, when you got your ass handed to you, but nevermind im sure I’ll have the pleasure again thats if the bitterness hasnt killed you, feeling bored are we?
Sean is a deluded little fellow indeed. Understandable that he worships a god that has failed to bless him with a functioning brain.
What kind of a fool abuses their own wife and child’s privacy by posting their images in a public forum. No wonder he crushes bugs for a living ! Keep dreaming kiddo your not smart enough to own anyone’s ass ! LOL
What type of weirdo goes checking out someones profile that they are communicating with on line, stalker comes to mind, a honest job is nothing to be ashamed of, we all do different jobs, even prejudiced towards peoples chosen career, outstanding, no snobbery with you at all, you cant talk about brains, it doesnt take much to be a bigot me oul pal, im proud to be a hard working christian tolerant of all even bigots like you.
Just another note if I don’t respond to your posts don’t get to excited and think its some kind of victory . I suspect that is what your basing previous experiences on . Its just that for some of us the amusement of throwing pepples at a village idiot wears off after a while . Nothing personal Your still an idiot but there’s just no fun engaging you anymore !
I find it ironic Sean, that a god fearing Catholic like yourself, after accusing others of ignorance and intolerance would have to resort to dishonesty due to your pride.
“do you hate the catholic race”
Sadly it seems you are still being dishonest because you didn’t just misuse the word,you repeated it again, after you were corrected. I actually don’t believe you misused it, you purposely used to it to sensationalize your argument,then tried dishonestly to backtrack by inferring that I didn’t understand the comment.
And you had the cheek to compare me with the “clergy of old” when you have used some of the same tactics the Catholic church uses to cover up it crimes. There is no arguing one point, you most certainly are Catholic.
That’s the thing about public profiles they are public . What ever you post about yourself is your own business but your violating the privacy of your wife and child . That isn’t very clever . I suggest you attend to the security settings on your Facebook account . It wasn’t difficult to access since it’s linked to your post dummy ! People really need to get more savvy when it comes to social network security. I know where this idiot works , who his friends are and I could easily get his phone number and home address in a very short space of time . Would you like your ass back now Sean ?
Beabad bishop disappears and you reappear? ???
No dishonesty from me here I admitted my stupidity you on the other hand you are still avoiding the question I put to you earlier, dont be a coward be honest before you change back to pebble throwing beabad.
Again what weirdo checks out the people hes talking to, very strange, if you want my number ask for it, dont be a coward obviously you want to ask me out on a date as you are fascinated with my ass but as you know im married and obviously im straight like the good little catholic I am, anything you want to know ask i dont hide behind false names like a coward thats your job.
Oh now you mentioned a name, who said I was related to anyone, should you not have been les to ask me about the question whoever im talking to now ,trinity??
Sean you only admitted your “stupidity” when I backed you into a corner, so once again you are being dishonest. Don’t believe me? go back over this thread and see how long it took you to admit you were wrong,see how you twisted and turned,trying to make out I was stupid. If that’s not being dishonest then I don’t know what is? Although as I said, I don’t believe you were wrong as I have already explained above.
You can claim you weren’t being dishonest, and you’ll probably believe it too but it’s there for all to see. You see Sean a godless anti theist like me didn’t need to be resort to dishonesty, I spoke the truth as I see it, you the supposed Christian? did.
Ironic isn’t it? That I the godless one treated you more Christian than you, the Christian treated me ;-)
I feel sorry for your wife and child and the rest of your friends and family . If you were the best defence the supporters of the Catholic Church had to offer then it would be extinct by now . I don’t give duck about you but do your wife and child a favour and attend to your privacy settings like the good Christian you think you are .
Sean, neither is Murder of babies and young children by those who were entrusted to protect them, or the attempted coverup thereafter. These acts were sanctioned by the heads of the very church which you aspire to. Am I missing something,,,,,, Or are you,,,,, xx
I never defended the church only my right to be catholic if I choose, resorting to lies like les, hold on you are les,nevermind my family and friends concentrate on your own,still it is worrying you checking out profiles, sick individual comes to mind.
The difficulty with Sean Beinead is that he makes the issue into a personal conflict and directs away from the substantive issues. He is an obvious mischief maker, a zealot, indoctrinated in a vile ideology and incapable of rational dialogue. He interprets unavailability as defeat and crows in an unseemly and inappropriate manner. He is not worth engaging with but he exhibits the mindset which is behind these tragic deaths due to neglect and abuse.
Sean now that I know I’m dealing with someone as dishonest as you, what would be the point of continue discussing this further with you? I’m was being truthful and honest and you weren’t. So what’s to say you won’t use such dishonest tactics again (not they were that hard to discover anyway LOL :-) )
No Sean I was having an honest debate, now that is gone, what would be the point?
@ richard
Oh yes , you are right because im catholic i condone murder of babies and the sexual abuse of kids, and as a father too, but dont let the fact I didnt once defend the churches crimes get in the way .
Wow, it’s all getting a bit personal there lads isn’t it?
Surely it’s better to stick to the subject at hand? All these personal attacks are giving me terrible flashbacks of a catholic girls secondary school..
These are the bigots im dealing with, because im catholic I must condone all the church does, even though ive said these crimes must be punished but never mind that im catholic it doesnt matter I support pedos and condone murder thats what we do right ??
@ Shanti: Not personal attacks just pointing out to the pious one here that he is a hypocrite, with his help of course ;-)
@ Sean : We have already gone over this, your victimization act which let you to start the merry “Catholicism is a race” dance. The fact that you resorted to lying. You didn’t say it in words, you said it with your actions of dishonesty. You proved the dishonest lengths you will go to,to defend Catholicism. You proved many of my points Sean and for that I thank you ;-)
I was speaking to you all, you included Sean – yours was the first response to the original comment leading with accusations of ignorance. You were calling another poster elsewhere a hypocrite for attending his fathers funeral because he was an atheist..
It’s funny that you seemed to think you weren’t included when I said it all seemed to be getting a bit bitchy.
With regards what the original poster said – the catholic cult is a stain on this country and personally I don’t understand why this level of utter contempt for their own teachings has not caused another schism – people branched off over a lot less. Surely realising that most of the upper echelons were corrupt and facilitating these heinous acts should be enough for the decent Catholics to separate into a new Catholic Church?
Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows, I love your dancing around and avoiding of my question you have proven you are just a bigot who will make up stories, but still I respect your views, im tolerant despite your intolerance for my views.
I realise that Les – all one needs to do is look back up – most of the originating ad hominem attacks (labelling everyone ignorant rather than engaging with what they have said) came from Sean who seems blissfully unaware of his role in this devolution into a slagging session.
Hopefully we are all adults here, none of us needs to go down that route.
Also..
Criticism of the church does not equal personal criticism of individual Catholics. If you wish to take offence to it that is entirely upon you.
What people would not condone is the apologists who seek to deny or downplay these terrible deeds, which you say you do not – but if you continue to support the church your actions conflict with your words.
We know them by their fruits. You know them by their fruits – so why do you give your passive approval by continuing to identify with them?
No one who was friends with Jimmy Saville wanted to be connected with him once the revelations came out, same goes for Gary Glitter. So why do people – including the good nuns and priests, continue to condone these acts by their support of the institution that facilitated them?
I honestly don’t get that bit – it baffles me as I am sure it baffles many others.
Im well aware of my contributions shanti, one does get fed up listening to all catholics being tarred with the one brush, and I make no apologies for defending myself and not the church, just to point out my first comment on the article and youll see my position or dont .
Yes Sean round and round we go indeed, I have answered your question in a couple of different ways throughout the thread,yet you keep asking it. This is just another distraction tactic,to just keep repeating yourself over and over. You’re a textbook religious crank Sean, and I’m aware of all your little ploys and tactics ;-)
So I moved on and started to deal with why you would feel the need to be dishonest in the first place?
Why do you keep avoiding that by asking me the same question over and over and over again?
And remember, if you ask the question I have already answered again I’m gone.
I think that we need to close off this particular thread. It is important to realise that Sean Beinead is distracting from the terrible horror of what happened in Tuam. This is what we need to focus on and how to ensure that the full truth and identification of responsibility emerges.
A misuse of a word and its a big conspiracy because I made out that it wasnt, well lock me up and throw away the key les, as asked before, when did I say that I condoned the churches crimes, look at my very first comment, whos being dishonest now.
In fairness Peter this goes to show what lengths Catholics will go to the defend their involvement in the church. Paying lip servicing by saying they are disgusted yet they remain within this evil institution. Their religion is far more important to them than what’s right and wrong.
“@myles
It’s a pity you are so ignorant and full of hatred when it comes to people having a faith which you do not or cannot understand you should learn to be tolerant of others, you might live a more fulfilling life, bitterness is not good for the human condition”
You could possibly have had a point in there, but it got lost among the insults and assumptions of a poorly lived life that you doled out on what is presumably a complete stranger.
Myles comment was a general one aimed at those here who seek to downplay or deny the atrocities committed by the church, not you specifically, but the likes of that chap with the double barrelled name and Ciaran. It was you who decided to make all sorts of negative assumptions on his character. When others called you on it you labelled them ignorant too. You were hardly leading with the best of intentions to have a rational and civil debate when you start calling everyone ignorant before you even make your point. It’s like you sought hostility and then rose to it. I don’t condone anyone sinking to that level – there’s better ways to discuss things, but when someone starts making personal attacks it can be easy to see red.
As for the confusing criticism of the church for some sort of racism, I’m afraid Les did indeed hand you your backside on that one, it would have saved a lot of this if you could have admitted it was a poor choice of words rather than try to defend it.
The issue of importance here is the misery and death caused by the abuse and the neglectful of the most vulnerable in our society. That this a misery was perpetrated by a supposedly Christian and charitable order, ironically, called Bon Secours properly calls on us to see that this atrocity is not ignored and that we identify culpability and responsibility, instead of the cop out of blaming Roman Catholic society as a whole.
We must not forget. We need to know the full truth and we must never forget what happened to these children who were maltreated in the name of God.
Sean are you a Catholic? = Yes.
Do you go to a Catholic church? = Yes.
Do you put money into the collection of that Catholic church? = Yes.
Therefore you are still a member, a supporter and a funder of an organization that was involved in the, physical, mental and sexual abuse, rape, torture and murder of little defenceless children,then covers it up. You chose,knowing full well of these crimes to still be associate, a supporter and funder to such an organization makes you guilty by association.
So as I said earlier,you are either very indoctrinated to the point you don’t realize it or you are a very sick minded individual, I would like to think the former was the true, because these are the only 2 rational and logic explanations to why somebody would want to be associated with such evil and still claim to follow Christ?
There now Sean I can’t make it any simpler than that for you,
I make no excuses, I will defend myself regardless , none of my comments defended the church only my right to have my faith, I made two comments at the beginning one to jane t, the others came to me and it began, check out all the insults against catholics in comments and youll see, I dont care if people are not catholics but they that I am, check the comments these people dont distinguish between the church and members.
LesBehan, I agree that the approach taken by Sean Beinead shows all the hallmarks of the way in which the institution of the Roman Catholic Church bats off any criticism, however well justified.
I don’t want the issue itself to slip away. What is truly evil is what happened to these unfortunate and tragic children. It properly tugs on our emotions. It cries out to be addressed.
Of course defenders of the institution Roman Catholicism will invoke silly remarks such as racism against them. I judge the Roan Catholic Church by its appalling actions and inactions. Compared to that appalling tragedy, the idiots who seek to make this tragedy into a personal point scoring battle are hardly worth bothering about. They are zealots.
@ shanti
Did myles not refer to catholics as god squadders, would that not be considered as a derogatory comment and insulting to all catholics hence my comment.
Again Sean – most of the comments here are about the church hierarchy, not you personally. If you choose to be so defensive then that is your choice, but it’s not something you can blame other people for. I haven’t seen anyone say that you personally were a bad person, whereas you have labeled people ignorant by name. Can you see the difference I am trying to explain to you?
It’s like when people talk about misogyny and *some* guys start shouting about feminazis – it’s a very defensive position to take.. And unfortunately that level of defensiveness can make people suspicious about the motives behind these outbursts.
Now – should every man here be offended because I mentioned that some men are hyper defensive about the subject of misogyny? Of course not – because I clearly wasn’t talking about all men.
Myles comment clarified who he was speaking to. He was speaking to those commenters here who are trying to deny that it was a septic tank, or that the children were put in there, or that the treatment of these women was anything less than brutal.
Ergo – if you do not condone these actions, or deny that they happened, it’s pretty clear he wasn’t referring to you. You got defensive.
I realise martyrdom is considered a good thing in Catholicism, but that is taking it to new levels.
Sean I know what your problem is,you have great difficulty separating your god from your religion. Whatever private relationship you have with whatever god you like, I have no problem with that,I’m not having a go at that. That’s why you take it so personally. Whether god exists or not doesn’t,doesn’t concern me in the slightest, can’t be proven either way,so why concern myself with it? I don’t believe in faith, you do end of story.
My problem is with the institution that manipulates the teachings, from the sounds of it,of a really cool guy(who lets not forget,held children up with the highest regard than any other) and uses it to control and manipulate people. It obvious how far removed the Catholic church is from the teachings of Jesus.
You will probably say that the Catholic church doesn’t manipulate and control, then answer me this,how is it that so many Catholic’s defend the indefensible? How can some many people still identify themselves with an institution that committed such crimes?
So thats it, im bad because im a member of a church that has bad clergy and that means im the same as them, thats a very mature way of judging people I must, do you not think for one second that I hate them more than you and that I want a good, honest church without that poisin, that sums you up right there, I actually feel sad for you.
“No one who was friends with Jimmy Saville wanted to be connected with him once the revelations came out, same goes for Gary Glitter. So why do people – including the good nuns and priests, continue to condone these acts by their support of the institution that facilitated them?”
Sexual abuse of children was committed by a minority of the Catholic priesthood. Do you really think that most Catholic priests in Ireland in that period were child sex abusers? Furthermore, there was no legal obligation to report child abuse in Ireland until 2006. Therefore, no bishop or cardinal in Ireland broke the law.
I wonder if an extreme loyalty to a particular type of absolutist faith, whether for example Roman Catholicism or Islam, dulls compassion and hardens the adherents into committing atrocities they would otherwise not commit or seek to defend an institution which is clearly so adverse to the interests of society?
Did you really just say that? They didn’t break the law, well whoop dee do, they raped children for f*cks sake.
As for these “fallen women”, what was Jesus stance on women who had sex out of wedlock? Didn’t he go and hang around with the prostitutes and lepers? Not punish them for their crimes and then sell their babies or neglect them to the point of death.
I’m sorry, there’s no point in trying to talk to you. Dungeon Masters first comment to you was a direct deconstruction of your comment to Myles, your response was an attack. Led’ first response to you was a slightly harsher deconstruction of your comment – you responded with an attack. Same way you went on the offensive with William upthread.
You are hyper defensive about your religion, like Les said, no one begrudges you your faith, but the blind reverence for an institution that goes against the teachings of the very man they claim is their figurehead – indeed, they practice the opposite. If Jesus came back today he would be tossing tables around the Vatican and shouting about hypocrites and the special place there is in hell for them.
Nothing should draw your worship from “The Lord” definitely not a man (the pope) or an institution (the church). The Vatican are the modern day Pharisees. They pray to be seen to pray – but their actions are far from “The Lord”. It’s clear they don’t even believe the words of Jesus or they would never have done what they did. Legal or not.
“So as I said earlier,you are either very indoctrinated to the point you don’t realize it or you are a very sick minded individual, I would like to think the former was the true, because these are the only 2 rational and logic explanations to why somebody would want to be associated with such evil and still claim to follow Christ?”
Sean you don’t hate them as much as me because number 1. You said “has bad clergy” which diminishes the overall cover up that was ordered by the institution as a whole and not just “bad clergy” This implies the “few bad apples” defence that doesn’t wash because we know this was being covered up from the very top of the Catholic church. Number 2 : If you genuinely did hate them as much as I did,you certainly wouldn’t be identifying yourself as a Catholic. Once again you are unable to separate god from religion.
So for you to claim you hate the church as much as a godless anti theist like me, yet still identify yourself as Catholic means that you are indoctrinated in Catholicism. Remember now, this is not an attack on god, this is an attack on the institution of Catholicism.
A minority of the priesthood, but an alarmingly high number within the priesthood compared with the general populace. Not just that, but a hierarchy willing to cover up their transgressions and facilitate their pedophilia.
How come the hierarchy were not reviled by these actions? How come they did not consider it prudent to ensure that these priests were kept away from their “temptations”? Why did they cover it up and send them off to do it again somewhere else while swearing the victims to secrecy?
Doesn’t seem like a very responsible and child friendly way to deal with it..
The institution if the Roman Catholic Church facilitated the actions of clerical child sexual abusers, suppressed information about their appalling predatory abuses from An Garda Siochana and treated single mothers and children with a cruelty beyond contemplation. Is it a good and proper thing actively to support such an institution?
Sometimes religious loyalty trumps moral courage and goodness.
“Furthermore, there was no legal obligation to report child abuse in Ireland until 2006. Therefore, no bishop or cardinal in Ireland broke the law.”
What about what’s right Ciaran? What about doing the right thing? The Catholic church proclaims to be the authority of morals but because it wasn’t against the law, they did nothing wrong?
That is a seriously messed up attitude for organization that claims to follow Christ to have.
The points I made earlier to clarify for youse, I agree with a full investigation with judicial powers, the church, state and society are responsible, take from that what you will, ive made my point clear and simple if you want to judge people thats your choice, tarring people with the same brush simply because they are members of the church is ridiculous to say the least, a generalisation about catholics is what happens here nothing more and thats it in a nutshell.
Well Sean if the criticism of Catholicism offends you,stop being a Catholic then,simples. I have given you plenty of reasons why somebody should not be a Catholic, you chose to be a Catholic knowing full well everything that’s happened,so you chose to be offended.
You’re right. It wasn’t a child-friendly way to deal with it but all of the bishops and cardinals who swore victims to secrecy or moved paedophile priests around are not in ministry anymore. The present hierarchy, especially Pope Francis, does not tolerate child abuse.
@ LES
I agree with criticism of the church just not the generalisations being made about members, im not going to change my religion because you say so nor will I because some clergy are criminals, they can leave the church and there supporters.
Are you actually suggesting that learned men of theology,adults of supposed sound mind didn’t know that having sex with children was wrong? This is the best defence, they and you can come up with? I despair I really do.
Ciaran how did you learn that adults having sex with children was wrong?
Sean the whole Catholic church covered it up, I have already said the “few bad apples” defence doesn’t wash. From the highest level down covered it up.
No Sean you are absolutely right leave your religion because I say so(I didn’t actually) you should leave it because of it involvement and cover up of rape of little children,I mean I thought that is obvious. As I said you know the crimes that were committed,you know about the cover up, and yet you remain a Catholic,so stop crying about being offended.
Your claims of disgust are just lip service because once again you defend them by saying ” nor will I because some clergy are criminals,” Some clergy Sean, that is how you are defending the church and their crimes…
More lies, all the church, really,
Its quite obvious, your hatred of the church as an anti atheist as you said, look thats up to you, your a big boy, make your decisions, im not going to be converted so dont waste your efforts, you dont know me except that im catholic and you made up your mind, I wont lose sleep over it, error in judgement on your part but however im tired and need some zz before work so ill bid you a farewell untill next time.
@ Ciaran : “What about what’s right Ciaran? What about doing the right thing? The Catholic church proclaims to be the authority of morals but because it wasn’t against the law, they did nothing wrong?
That is a seriously messed up attitude for organization that claims to follow Christ to have.”
@ Sean : Ha, ha you are accusing me of being a liar, you are a mass of contradictions and hypocrisy. You have been nothing but dishonest. First you say you hate the church,then you defend them,that makes you a liar or very confused :-)
I wasn’t trying to convert you, I was using you to point out how easy it is to tie religious cranks up in knots by using, logic and reason to the point where begin to say stupid things like “racist remarks towards catholics” for whatever reason. You completely misunderstood what I was doing here Sean,I kept handing you shovels and you just kept on digging. The further you dug,the more you showed yourself to be a crank LOL :-)
Thanks for playing Sean, better luck next time ;-)
How do you think they manage to get thousands off onto the crusades or to fly planes into tall buildings?
Tell the sheep that “god” is on their side and you are doing his will.Teach only parts of your scriptures that only tell you to kill your enemies and keep them ignorant of any other bits about respecting any other people of the book,or loving thy neighbour.Assure them of some reward in the next life of some eternal paradise or 77 virgins that is assuredly yours if you kill unbelivers or heretics,and you will get humanity to happily slaughter each other for centuries.Want to solve 97% of the worlds problems?Abolish all religion .
Sean let me leave you with this thought : You could have spent this day with your daughter, with your wife, with friends or even researching new ways to kill bugs. Instead you traded all those things to defend the Catholic church. You sacrificed all that quality time with your family to defend an institution,
See this is why I know, for certain that you care little for the children of clerical abuse, you pay lip service but don’t really mean it, because you would gather spend all that time defending the church, than spending time with your loved ones. In short defending the Catholic church here today was more important to you than your own family.
I would have been stuck in front of this computer anyway, I didn’t lose out on any quality time. In fact you helped me kill a lot of time.
People in this country have come to the conclusion that we don’t need an outdated evil institution like the Catholic church to preach tolerance of others because it’s one of the most basic things any good parent would teach there children amongst a lot of others.
I have heard excuses, I have heard statements, I have heard of impending inquiries and/or investigations, people blaming this one, that one and the other, I have heard people trying their utmost to defend, deflect and discourage. I have heard shock, horror and dismay.
But….what I haven’t heard is the turning of a single sod on the alleged mass grave to find out who is buried there. That in itself is a scandal.
@dungeon master. My final installment of secondary education was a catholic boarding school. What a revealing tragedy. I’d rather not repeat what I saw but it was enough for me to draw my own conclusions about ” faith” and hypocrisy. I have spent many years traveling and can see blatantly the negative impact church doctrine has on peoples psyche. Apathy is the first to come to mind and I don’t think anyone on here could disagree with me on that in light of recent years. People are worried about standing up and speaking what’s on their minds. I believe Catholicism has played its part in that. For the record I’m an honest and generally wish people all the best but I’ve had enough of sitting in silence and seeing one tragedy after another unfold. As we approach 100 years since the rising do you honestly believe that those who lost their lives were paving the way for our own version of the Taliban to take up the reigns from our previous masters and create the havoc that followed. Its time to say enough is enough and remember this. There was an Ireland before the church and there will be an Ireland after it.
Myles, on your point about the rising: Pearse was a devout Catholic. The timing of the rising was important to him (ie at Easter) because of the symbolic spilling of blood. He believed that ‘bloodshed is a cleansing and a sanctifying thing’. His words, note his use of the word sanctifying. Also the initial leaders of the new state WERE former revolutionaries who took part in the rising and in turn, abdicated their responsibilities by handing education, health etc over to the church. De Valera, revolutionary, wrote the catholic biased constitution.
I’m the same Myles, restless in the face of the truth-bending apologists you find on articles such as this, defending their church at all costs and refuting any criticism with rote-learned responses. It is incredible that anybody would even contemplate associating themselves with the Roman Catholic Church given what it’s done to this country and the most vulnerable members of society, it’s messed up views on sexuality which let to such dysfunction amongst countless numbers of people, the child rape, the beatings, the incarceration, the lands grabs, the misogyny, the homophobia, the loyalty to a foreign State, the list goes on, and yet the plebs continue to accept their roles as subservient non-thinking sheep of the clergies flock. I hate everything the Catholic Church stands for and I hate the organisation, the sooner we’re rid of it the better.
Well said DM…Its not often I will find praise for Communist dictators,but at this point I am beginning to think Stalin and Castro had the right idea of how to deal with this bunch.Confiscate all the church’s assets in this country,and use their monies and assets to start investigating their crimes against the Irish people. Inter as enemy aliens and agent provoctuers all priests,nuns and supporters of the RCC along with their fifth columists in our society namely shadowy organisations like opus dei,knights of colambanus and legion of mary.Be surprised how many of those people have infiltrated our civil service and still pull the strings in political circles here.Either jail or deport the lot of them back to their country ,The Vatican.Remove ALL religious oaths and privilidges granted any religion in this country.Remove ALL religious orders from schools,hospitals and boards of any institution.
Marx said Religion is the opiate of the people,and Ireland has been drugged long enough with religion and it is time to get some drug addiction thereapy for Ireland.
Had to go to mass this morning for a family members anniversary after the readings we were asked to pray for the church and our political leaders I was thinking of those poor misfortunate children in Tuam I said to myself duck the church and our so called leaders they were the people doing the most evil acts of all on the people of this nation
I think if you feel so strongly about the church in this way, why did you attend the service, I know you said it was a loved ones anniversary but do you not think you were being a bit hypocritical there??
@ kenneth fitz
I was just putting the question to you and I wasnt trying to be smart with you as I do respect the fact it was your loved ones anniversary.
Sean, if you’re referring to me, I’m not. I say prayers in church to the devil. :)
When my 84 year old late father, a life long staunch mass going Catholic, was dying about 5 years ago, he asked me why in his dying days was he suffering so much after believing in god all his life, I thought for a minute about telling him the truth, “There’s no god, you’re dying with the same level of pain as anyone, believer or not.” but I thought, “what’s the point?”. He knew I was an Atheist for decades and why try and covert him on his death bed. I don’t believe that made me a hypocrite either. I carried his coffin down the church isle with my 3 non believing brothers. None of us were hypocrites. It would have been absurd to try and score points on the day of his burial. We carried his coffin in his church, not ours.
Still makes you a hypocrite, like many, why take part in a religious ceremony like a funeral if you didnt believe in it,(no disrespect intended) as you said you father knew you where an atheist, surely he would have understood?
Sean, surely William in this case was being the bigger man and setting aside his own personal disdain for the church out of respect for his father – who, in spite of his religious beliefs, William obviously loved very much?
It wasn’t William who decided to hold the funeral in a church, that would have been his fathers decision. It’s not like William went in and pretended to be a catholic, he merely went to pay his respect to his father, the church was merely the venue.
Ok – this would be my personal opinion, I’m sure there are others who would disagree, but when it comes to paying respects to someone you loved, it’s time to set aside your own feelings about their faith.
If you loved them – you will give them that bit of respect, even if you disagree with the church – because it’s not about the church – it’s about the loved one.
I would consider it quite petty to miss out on a parent or siblings funeral because of your own personal feelings about the church. But that is simply my perspective.
I dont really disagree or agree its a personal decision isnt it, I just wouldnt attend a ceremony if I was against it thats all, im sure you can see my point but as you said he was the bigger man on the day and hats off to him.
No, I have attended ceremonies despite not being of the faith involved, that wasn’t the bit that mattered – what mattered was the person I went there *for*.
Some of them were kind of interesting, but the thing that mattered was not the ceremony but the intention of the event – be that marriage or funeral or otherwise.
I wouldn’t attend a communion or a confirmation, but I have no real need to.
“I thought for a minute about telling him the truth, “There’s no god, you’re dying with the same level of pain as anyone, believer or not.” but I thought, “what’s the point?”.”
We can believe that God exists or doesn’t exist or that He may or may not exist, i.e. agnosticism, but we won’t know whether or not He exists until we die.
Ciaran, I’m afraid your logic is faulty. If god doesn’t exist then when you die you won’t find out you’re wrong.
What if you die and arrive in wherever to discover god has an Elephant’s head or Tom Cruse is right and you meet a Vogan or whatever SF fantasy he believes in?
Look up Gödel’s incompleteness theorems and you will understand that we can’t be 100% sure of anything. That doesn’t make an Atheist and Agnostic. Agnosticism is 99% as absurd as Deism. However all we can do is decide what is the probability of anything. The probability that the Catholic 3 in 1 god exists as per Catholic Church teaching is as near to zero as possible. He’s been unemployable since Darwin’s time.
It’s a nice gesture on behalf of the few remaining Catholic Fundamentalists to take time away from their afternoon self-flagellation to come here to continue to try to beat the truth to death on behalf of their cult.
The Catholic church has had its time at the top table in Irish society and hopefully every other table they’ve done the damage and most importantly to them made there money now be a good little brainwashing cult and fook off back to Rome.
With the exception of very few RC zealots, the vast majority of Irish people are united in their instinctive repugnance of these deaths, how they happened and the disrespect shown in the disposal of the remains.
It is pointless arguing with zealots. As far as they are concerned, their only duty is to defend the institution of their Church, right or wrong, regardless of the factual truth.
The doctrine of the institutional RC Church is that it can do no wrong and its adherents are required to follow that principle.
Decent and humane people are outraged, properly so. The zealot defenders of the institution of the RC Church are a different type of person, unthinkingly obedient to absolute authority, reactionary in outlook and incapable of coming to grips with the truth. It is unfair to attack them. They are trapped in the strict and absolute mindset of the past, unable to comprehend the enormity of the tragedy and fixated on distracting from the evils of their Church.
It is heartening to me to see so many Catholics question, challenge, examine and confront what happened. The throat hold of the institutional Roman Catholic Church is broken. I am 65 years of age and I no longer fear the waning powere of the institutional Roman Catholic Church. It’s capacity to harm us is waning and we are left with a remnant of the old guard who do us a service by being living fossils of the past and who show us the mindset which allowed these vile cruelties to happen. Let them speak out and expose themselves for what they are, unfeeling and uncaring.
Hopefully this is the rock that starts the avalanche against the Church.People hopefully will wake up and question the nonsense that is organised religion and rationally think how in good conscience can they support a crowd with a track record of atrocities.
Open question to the faithful! Has anyone decide enough is enough with their support of the Church over this latest atrocity?
Zealots need not answer your response is predictable and I’d expect nothing else than defence of the indefensible from the severely indoctrinated.
if any of these priests had an ounce of decency they would leave that church now. even start their own new church rather than associate with the RC murder machine
What planet is Archbishop Martin on?? Whistleblowers?? Look what happened then in 2013/14!!!
When the CMO in the 20′s closed Bessboro the BISHOP went to De Valera to try and get him dealt with!!!!
Apparently information pertaining to some of these mother and baby homes was given to minister Frances Fitzgerald and the Archbishop in 2012 and those involved haven’t heard a word back. There’s a surprise. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard politicians and our betters in the church say “Yes, something should be done.”
Not one of our ministers, “leaders” etc has had the magairlí to say; “Call in the Gardaí.” It’s the least the dead deserve.
There is nothing new here ,we all have known about the abuse for a long long time .It happened end of .The Church and state took it upon themselves to b the moral compass for what considered the most grave sin ,of sex outside of marriage .This sin was laid in the arms of Irish women ,as the man could get away !All so so wrong ! Infant mortality was very high in those days even when the children were treasured by their families .We had no cure for measles ,pneumonia ,whooping cough ,diarrahoea ,etc.and when these illnessess hit an institution they caught on like wild fire ,it spread throughout the building overnight .Children’s little bodies were ravaged by disease and mal nourishment was as much caused by the illness as the poor standard of nutrition .These babies died ,and because of the “sin” of their conception at the time they couldn’t b buried in consecrated ground .The nuns and others in charge of these institutions had to bury these babies someplace ,so the grounds of the institution was the only option ,so there will b graves all over Ireland where an institution existed .in Tuam it was 22 deaths a year over 40 years .i don’t think that is extraordinary ,seeing as the measles killed 27 ,babies in one week there .We can only go on from this ,and rem,the Nuns had no help ,no training ,no life experience in dealing with children ,merely what was learned behaviour ,they were not nurses,and only got the advice of an 80 yr old doctor .These women too were overworked ,exhausted,unprepared ,and frustrated by a system that gave them no help ,except in brainwashing them with the notion ,that those in their care were evil sinners .
“These babies died ,and because of the “sin” of their conception at the time they couldn’t b buried in consecrated ground .The nuns and others in charge of these institutions had to bury these babies someplace ,so the grounds of the institution was the only option ,so there will b graves all over Ireland where an institution existed ”
Throwing the dead children into a tank is not a burial by any standards. “I was only carrying out orders” seems to be the defence here of a heinous crime.
Hallie. What is the alleged crime? And throwing bodies into a tank was a made up part to sell newspapers.
. Ms Corliss herself said that the septic tank part is just not true .
John Van ,if I can’t use a reasonable arguement ,should I shut up and say nothing ,Am !isn’t that the reason this whole story began .”Evil thrives when good people do nothing” or something to that effect !!
Eilish, I was being sarcastic. Your comment was the most sensible on the forum.
Where do these other outraged clowns come from?
Without any evidence, and with half a story and loads of imagination , a liberal sprinkling if the word Nazi, and a kilo of hate they draw conclusions.
Who could live with these guys?
Funny comment to make, yet reported in the paper.In 1947 the mother superior pointed out to the inspector all the nuns were trained nurses and some were also midwives.
The mortality rate in the home was 53% in wider society it was 15%.
Anyone see a problem with the mortality rate?
Er.. Most of the children died of malnourishment, and where are you getting that Catherine Corless said it wasn’t a septic tank? It was one that was decommissioned in the 30s, the maps show it as plain as day.
As for the nuns, yeah – the girls arrive, have their hair chopped off, are given an assumed name then made to work in silence all day in the laundry – only getting time off to pray, eat or sleep. Not even time to be with their child which then disappeared completely.
And FYI, that’s the first hand account I have been given by someone who was in another laundry. I have no reason to believe things were any different in Tuam.
“This sin was laid in the arms of Irish women ,as the man could get away !”
The reason for the failure to hold men who got young women pregnant to account is that their paternity couldn’t be proven because there was no DNA testing at the time.
Ciaran.
Your comment is very telling..
Surely the women knew who the fathers were?
Because your comment would suggest that either a) they were sleeping with so many men they wouldn’t have known or b) they could not be trusted to identify the man.
Whereas in reality, this is where the “slut vs stud” mentality comes from. It’s the woman who’s in the wrong for having sex, and it is she who must bear the punishment. Men on the other hand – sure they’re supposed to spread their seed. There’s no shame in them having sex. It’s only women the church has an issue with.
“Your comment is very telling..
Surely the women knew who the fathers were?
Because your comment would suggest that either a) they were sleeping with so many men they wouldn’t have known or b) they could not be trusted to identify the man.”
You’ve taken my comment out of context. I meant that the lack of DNA testing meant that, if the man denied having sex with the woman, she was unable to prove that he was the father of the child.
No doubt that the RC Church and State acted in collusion. That is why a clear division between the Church and State should be in every country. The more responsible is the one to whom the homes belonged. I do not understand why people like cardinal Sean Brady are still in power… There is no doubt he knew about what was going on and covered it up. Now he is still holding the position of Archbishop of Armagh and All Ireland. Ridiculous… Until such people like him are still in power the RC Church will never regain trust and respect, if it is possible at all…
Jeebus Xrist, emotive ranting rarely achieves anything except to display the ignorance of the ranter.
A detailed examination of the facts shows shows that a very small number of Catholic Clergy and Religious engaged in the sort of abuse you mentioned.
The State, Gardai, Judiciary, families of the unfortunate unmarried mothers, the men who fathered the babies and some who are now ranting against the Catholic Church were all involved in the horrible scandal. Maybe they should all be deported.
What is needed is a full criminal investigation and any person found to have committed a crime should be brought to justice.
The Archbishop of Dublin is entitled to his opinion as is every other citizen. He was not around when all of the mother and babies homes were in operation so I hardly think he can be held responsible for what happened. Methinks however, that he is too quick off the blocks to comment or give interviews, better if he held his counsel, til after the investigation is complete otherwise he might be accused of pandering to a hungry media.
Institutional Roman Catholic values, ethos and obedience permeated and controlled every institution of the State. The reason all of these institutions listed by you were dysfunctional is because of a fear of and subservience to the institution of the Roman Catholic Church. The repressive and cold values of an authoritarian hierarchy overcame decency and goodness.
Most of the current ills and past ills of Irish society derive directly or indirectly from allowing the institution of the Roman Catholic Church too much dominance in our public life and in our private vales, dulling and blunting our instinctive compassion and humanitarian feelings.
Fortunately, we are seeing the wane of the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and that will permit us to work out a superior moral and ethical set of values.
Al Fonso, for your information, nothing to do with the church for a moment. If a woman was pregnant before being married, their families even shunned them including the fathers by large as most seem to have got away scot free while these women were put into those house. I don’t see houses for men. The government knew this report since 1974. That is the point and why was nothing done then, not now? That is the question you have to ask yourself. The police probably knew about this and did nothing too including inspectors as well. I have serious questions on how state bodies didn’t stop abuses going on when they did get reports.
Ava ,nothing was done in 1974,as everyone knew ,it was the institutions graveyard,as babies from these institutions could not b buried in regular grave yards ! A sin of the time ,yes ,but one we have learned and moved on from !
@rock – Absolutely. The type like which my comment refers to are those who constantly criticise and attack the Church for “doing nothing” and then when the Church calls for action it is still wrong.
These people are only trolls and plants.
Er.. The reason that these girls and women were shunned was because to have sex out of wedlock was a grave sin and would bring tremendous shame on the family..
Where did this notion of shame and sin come from?
As for the state, Ireland was, for all intents and purposes, a theocracy up until relatively recently, and we still have yet to shake off the last few tendrils of this theocratic rule.. I mean – why on earth were ANY religious representatives consulted on our laws? Especially one that had already been voted on by the people..
Yes, the state is complicit – but the direct blame lays at the feet of the “holy” orders directly responsible for the ill treatment. The reason the outrage is so intense is because these people held themselves up as a moral authority and then used their privileged status to abuse those vulnerable people in their care. Nuns and Priests alike.
The issue of not being contracted in marriage to the church and state was the issue.
Marriage was the license issued by church/state that gave couples permission to have legal sex.
It was and is a binding contract still. There are 3- 4 parties in the contract- as one learns when one tries to divorce.
The church and state never ever default on the contract so they are the winners no matter what.
The marriage license was used to keep men and women under control, with the men husbanding their women like cows- it was all about breeding souls for the RC church.
‘A full investigation to understand what happened ‘- so we know what happened right?? Shouldn’t it be declared a crime scene? Is there not a crime against humanity here? Shouldn’t those who were
Involved who are still alive not be spending the rest of their miserable
Lives behind bars??
WHISTLEBLOWERS….. how deluded can a person get or how STUPID does Diarmuid Martin think we are? They would have never worked again if they were lay people, and if they were members of a religious order they DID WHAT THEY WERE TOLD. McQuaid and the rest of them saw to that.
be careful what you wish mister churchman,,,i come less than ten miles from one of your catholic churches concentration camps, this could be the final straw
Of course Benedict’s apologist would love a widespread full bodied report covering as many other sections of society as possible.
That means it is less likely to occur at all due to how long it would take and how much it would cost. It would also have the effect of diluting the damage to the church.
This man does not care properly, he is here to limit the damage to the RCC.
Let him quiver his lips as much as he likes he is so transparent it is dreadful. I have no doubt that he has sincere empathy but his main role here is to limit further damage.
Well said if you are an “Ostrich”. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. We learn from the past and hopefully, make sure we don’t allow this to happen again. Hopefully!
Hi zebadie. Would you welcome a full investigations into much more recent events carried out by IRA and others?
How do you pick the event by which you are outraged?
The Tuam grave gas been known about for decades.
The Catholic Church have been well advised by their expensive
PR gurus. Any ‘understanding’ of the situation is being trotted on on their instructions. It’s called damage limitation
Yes, sure who cares about that injustice? It was so long ago, it doesn’t matter anymore.. Sure just let those involved off scot free, never mind that there are living survivors of these institutions, women whose children may be among those skeletons.. It’s not like they would care or anything..
I hope you realise how utterly callous your comment is – because that was utterly disgusting. Shame on you.
Ah shure those aul nazi concentration camps were 70 years ago,and those fellahs are dead too.So why are those pesky whiney Jews still hounding those aul fellahs??? Maybe because justice delayed is justice denied??
We need ‘a full blooded investigation’ like we need a hole in the head, or an epidemic of bubonic plague. There have been enough lawyer millionaires created by our propensity for self flagellation. No useful purpose can be achieved by investigating deaths that took place over 50 years ago in institutions that no longer exist. Build the children’s hospital and take care of the living. If the Archbishop wishes to sponsor the investigation he describes that is another matter. But the rest of us are taxed to extermination paying for the whims of tree hugging beast beaters.
I think the archbishop is right , a full investigation with judicial powers is the only way to get to the bottom of this and get justice for these poor children,though I see people are jumping to attack the archbishop aswell as the church even though what he has done is a positive move considering the position of the church is unfortunately and normally to ignore these issues.
Sean, he’s a complete hypocrite who is trying to divert blame from the church to ordinary members of the public who didn’t “blow the whistle”.
It strikes me that Ariel Castro used exactly that excuse to explain his abduction and abuse of three women over a decade; that he was a sick man who was waiting for someone to stop him. The RCC is a sick institution which is still waiting for the public to stop them.
I assume the police were told, the inspectors knew, social workers knew and some families knew but all did nothing as well in those days. This report was since 1974. Why was it not dealt with then by the government? I have serious questions on that.
Im not defending anyone or any act, im saying the comment he made is correct, a full investigation with judicial powers and he is right when he says the church alone is not to blame, the church, the state and ordinary people who knew the goings on are to blame, saying nothing and doing nothing is as bad as the act itself.
Sean / Ava, all roads lead back to the Catholic Church, do you not understand that reason the State, Gardaí and ordinary people did nothing was because Catholic doctrine instructed the whole of Irish society that these women were ‘fallen’, yes the authorities didn’t do enough, but the question is why? If an ordinary citizen spoke out against the church in any capacity back then their entire family would be outcast by the local clergy, I don’t think either of you have a remote grasp of the power the RCC had back then. Attempting to spread the blame nice and thinly across everyone, just to protect your beloved Church is a bit sickening.
You need to read my comments again, im not defending my church im pointing out that the church alone isnt to blame, it was a cultural thing here not to question the church, as I said the church state and society has blood on there hands, you are blinded by hatred dungeon im not, I hate what these people did to my people and my church you only see what you want.ive made no excuses for the church they did wrong and should be punished end of.
Believe that if you want, truth is irish society was tolerant of the church’s wrong doings then and now society is attempting to push all the blame elsewhere, thats what is sickening. Nothing will be learned from these atrocities.
The majority of Irish society back then feared the church greatly, which is ironic when apparently this was a religion of love and truth. The Catholic church were as powerful as the state,some would argue even more so.
As I have already said blaming society is the church’s cop out.
Diarmuid Martin is more progressive than his predecessors. For example, he forced Cardinal Connell to back down with regard to child abuse files and also spoke in favour of the children amendment.
Ciaran, “more progressive than his predecessors”? By which you mean slightly less evil? That might be good enough for you, but it’s far from good enough for me.
There is an old grave site outside Navan town. It is believed to hold the remains of 100s or 1000s of paupers. I’d dates right upto 1930.
It’s possible that most or all of these poor souls were tortured, raped, quartered and killed by some sect or other. Or even worse.
No local TD , especially not or FF or FG one, have called for a full investigation
The geniuses at the Journal ignore it and refuse to be outraged.
We need to become hate filled about this.
True, it may all be nothing. But what harm is loads of outrage? Right?
Who cares what this man thinks. These allegations should be immediately investigated by the Gardai and if proved true then those involved still living or organisations representing should be prosecuted.
A lot of these comments have no bearing on the suffering carried out to innocent children of Ireland in not here to attack the Catholic institution I’m not looking for an investigation most people know what happened in these homes/ institutions . The religious institutions were paid by the Irish government to look after these people for lots of different reasons they were paid well to look after them they failed in their duties of care to these poor unfortunates they had enough money given to them to feed them properly they didn’t, they had enough money to clothe them they didn’t do that either they ran the homes like a business they made as much money as they could raking in millions in money and property from the suffering of innocents, the religious orders themselves that were entrusted to care for these people didn’t starve or die of measles or any other disease they thrived and made sure they themselves were properly fed and looked after.
No matter how long ago people knew of these crimes it’s too late now what I’m saying is that the religious orders should be stripped of their assets either money or property or both ,these riches were gotten fraudulently and should be taken back and used to care properly for kids or those that need it most but most importantly anyone that is buried in these institutions need to be given a proper resting place.
I think unfortunately while you make a good point that everyone knows what went on and everyone is appalled, in the spirit of true justice – investigation and prosecution are necessary steps toward achieving your goal.
The Catholic Church for the last 200 years was a strong ally of Britain in Ireland. I doubt if Britain would have held Ireland if it were not without the Church.
My God This is Genocide and we have known about it for over 40 yrs this is not news its just another case where is the law who gives a fu…. about the Archbisop why should the Clergy be allowed to comment or advise or be involved in any way where is the Gardai what would happen if they found 800 bodies in my septic tank could someone advise on the precedure and please copie in the gardai
Charlie, Friday was the first time I commented on the Journal.
It is truly depressing reading the stupid, hate filled, angry comments on here. Anyone rational and reasonable is abused.
I suppose it allows people to vent, maybe that’s a good thing. Facts and reason are unnecessary.
Seriously, you must think the same from time to time? Who the hell are all these nutters?
Anyway, I think I’ll never again even read these comments, not to mind write one.
Cheers, John
This is the most shocking story even in Ireland. It should be Headlines on all media every day until answers are found and people are imprisoned.
Firstly which politicians know about this in the past few years and why are they still in a job? Secondly why are the EU not sending in a specialist team to investigate this atrocity? Lastly why are our radio and TV giving airtime to the church representatives when the Gardai should be questioning the very same people?
“Ian Elliott, a former CEO of the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church in Ireland, was earmarked by Martin as someone suitable to lead such an investigation.”
I bet he was. 100% INDEPENDENT investigation please!
Ireland just loves spending a fortune on tribunals and investigations let’s all ignore the elephant in the room lots of people knew this was happening , right now we know our water is poisoned with Fluoride, are homes are being repossessed , children are going to school hungry , parents are stressed out of their minds !!! Our history is shameful but the babies and mothers are dead what about the living ones today ??
The nuns didn’t have the resources to have normal funerals for all of the babies who died at the home. It wasn’t a question of hiding the bodies. It was a question of burying the dead as quickly as possible to prevent the spread of disease. Mass graves were used to bury the bodies of people who died in the Saint Stephen’s Day tsunami of 2004. Therefore, the use of a mass grave to bury bodies is not proof of foul play.
Deaths of babies were also common outside mother-and-baby homes in Ireland at the time because Ireland was poor and healthcare was less advanced then than today. The numbers of babies who died in mother-and-baby homes only appears to be higher than in ordinary circumstances because of the huge numbers of people who were residents of these homes.
How many nuns died of malnutrition Ciarán? Is there anything the catholic church would do that you wouldn’t defend,bringing up the tsunami,I mean,seriously,does that make it more palatable for you?
Babies have always been more vulnerable to disease than adults are. The recent deaths of babies in Portlaoise and Cavan hospitals are examples of that. The reason for my mention for the tsunami is proof of the fact that the use of a mass grave to bury the dead is not proof that the dead were victims of foul play.
You and the other anti-Catholic posters are tarring all Catholic priests, nuns and monks with the same brush for the crimes of a minority of the Catholic clergy. You think that it’s OK to do away with due process. Have you not heard of innocent until proven guilty?
The problem is your constant deflection relating to this story Ciarán, using the ‘few bad apples’ excuse. Given the Roman Catholic Church’s history I would go with probability in this instance, it’s already clear from the CMO’s reports of Bessborough and other homes that the nuns were neglectful, so much so that that particular home was shut down and the matron sacked. For some it’s clear their sympathies lie with the reputation of their church and not the poor women and babies who found themselves incarcerated because of church doctrine.
Hang on a second – those nuns were paid handsomely to care for these women and their babies. Not only that, they were adopting the babies out to wealthy families (it being the Catholic Church we all know and, ahem, “love” you know there was a “voluntary contribution”) AND they had the revenue generated from the Laundries where they had free labour.
They got £26 per head per year, mother or child – it was being debated whether the state could truly afford that much per infant.
And you want to claim that they didn’t have the resources? Pull the other one mate..
Was the septic tank consecrated ground?? Even a mass burial pit is usually consecrated before burial.Somehow I cant see the local RCC blessing the shit pit of an institution of fallen women and harlots.
Everyone ? if they catholic zealots thought they would get away with it they would be shouting racist but they probably will when thy have finished using all their other slogans and insults.
Maria, you do know religion is not the same as race right? Here’s an appropriate quote for you and all of the other Catholic ‘victims’;
“I’ll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.
And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.”
It’s not a debate when one side are part of an organisation that has commited acts of pure evil but won’t admit its wrong and no longer of use in a modern equal society.
Am I the only person wondering why Francis Fitzgerald has not resigned ? Are the British the only ministers with principles. As usual she will get a big pension while those poor kids didn’t even get fed. Enda. — act now. Fire her immediately.
And find out the identities of the unnamed extra corpses who had been buried in the High Park cemetery and were only discovered when land holding the poor women’s graves was sold from underneath their coffins. They were re-buried in Glasnevin, some still not identified.
This Catholic institution, this Irish Orphanage home was open for 45 years that calcs out to about 18 deaths per year. People should do a little research and not take verbatim what propaganda is fed you. Then you would see a deeper story. As reported by The Gaurdian, the Irish orphanage was open from 1926 thru 1961. This is just a few years after Ireland became an independent state. If you look at history these were very hard times in this new country, times that included the period of the “great depression” as well as WWII which was a hell for all of the U.K. and the rest of the world for that matter.
Incidentally for the first half of the 20th century Ireland also had one of the worst infant mortality rates in Europe, tuberculosis was endemic. In 1944 it was reported by a government inspection, recorded evidence of malnutrition among some of the 271 children then living in the Tuam orphanage alongside some 61 unwed mothers. Most of which I would guess that the fathers here were either missing or dead from the war effort against Germany. The then death records cited sicknesses, diseases, deformities and premature births as causes.
The burials were coincident with an old septic system, this is irrelevant. More than likely this system was installed after the original home run by these Nuns was long ago raised for new housing. The “bodies” were not disposed in a sewage tank and is a total falsehood as reported by some. What is relevant is that the burial site had only been rediscovered by local people in past decades. These residents have kept the grass trimmed and built a small grotto with a statue of the Virgin Mary. A more permanent memorial is planned.
There has been little in agreement between the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic and has been cause for much bloodshed over the years. What should also be realized here is that this was a Catholic institution in a majority Protestant area of Ireland…would that be an issue? Well at least I know not all pinheads are located here in the states,
Sadistic,cold,heartless bitches are the words that come to mind. Irelands dirty little history coming out again for the world to be horrified once again. Can we blame De valera for this? Well,him and Mc Daid..
Why only Mother and Baby Homes. What about the Homes that babies were sent to when Mother’s gave birth in our Maternity Hospitals. Check out Temple Hills in Blackrock. I lie awake at night now with worry.
James where did you get the information that Tuam was a majority Protestant area ? Also this was a mother and baby home not an orphanage and these mothers were sent there to have their babies and atone for their great sin. These babies were the product of that sin and treated as such by the nuns !
Sally, I would stand corrected, as I got this wrong, backassward. Generally this area is almost all Catholic. With that being corrected…
Without any speculation, I see this place as some willing to help others, the sick, the poor, the unsupported as best could be, in times so hard and in conditions that would be almost barbaric by todays standards… Was the church out to make something or judge, I would highly doubt as the easy thing to do would be to close the doors and turn the needy away.
Were many of these women rape or incest victims? How many mothers lost their lives giving birth or had succumb to the rampant diseases of these times, Were the fathers just irresponsible or many too lost due to disease or war? Going by the 1944 report there were some 260 children and about 60 women in this facility. Thats over 4 children per woman. Im sure many of the young were without mother.
I see a continued trend in comments here, there seems to be animosity against the Church. When perhaps it was the society in whole that was responsible, perhaps contingent to the morals of the times. We cannot transpose todays values and morals, or lack of, back 50 years let alone 100. I can also see this as a secular liberal attack into a society on whole that is deep rooted religiously.
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