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A NUMBER OF strange cartoon posters with anti-cyclist messages have been erected around Howth Head in north Co Dublin in recent days.
Fingal County Council confirmed to TheJournal.ie that no permission was granted for the notices and that work was underway to have them removed.
Local Dave McManus snapped shots of them when he was out for a cycle from Sutton Cross to the summit of the headland yesterday morning.
He didn’t understand what they were about at first, he said – but as he spotted more, the message became apparent.
“After everything that’s been in the news about cyclists in the last few days – like gardaí saying they should wear high-vis vests – I thought maybe someone had decided it was time to have a go at them,” he said.
McManus said he was particularly concerned over one poster (above) which showed two elephants cycling in front of traffic with the caption “I look good in lycra”.
Despite the cartoonish style and jokey tone, he said we was worried that people who had decided to hop on their bike as part of a new fitness regime would be deterred.
“It’s great for fitness, and this sort of thing doesn’t help at all,” he said.
Someone might see that and think ‘Jesus, is that what people think of me?’… It’s just wrong.
There were more than 15 of the signs along the route from the Marine Hotel at Sutton Cross to the summit, he said.
The route is a popular one for cyclists and walkers – as well as motorists out for weekend drives.
“Everyone gets along,” McManus said. “So this is very strange.”
Whoever put them up “may be pissed off,” he said – “but there’s other ways of doing things”.
In its statement, Fingal County Council said:
“The anti-cyclist signs erected in Howth were erected without permission from Fingal County Council and arrangements are being made to take them down.”
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Take them down quick before some snowflake becomes offended.
@Cram Wood: do you know what a snowflake is? There to young to be Mamil
@Cram Wood:
The irony of someone taking the time at half 6 in the morning to complain about snowflakes. Pot and kettle mate, people who complain about snowflakes are the weakest people going, for they do not recognise that they themselves are those that are offended.
@John Smith: chuckle. Touche.
@Cram Wood: the only snowflake here is the flute who got so annoyed at being traffic, he/she decided to go to the trouble of printing and putting up signs.
@Cram Wood:
Snowflake? Are people using that here now? I thought it was just for yanks usually looking to excuse racism, sexism or whatever other mouldy personal trait they have that someone is calling them on…
F*ck off.
@Luke Deegan: Muslims & Cyclists a great bunch of lads … I assume a cycling Muslim must be the most offend person in the world.. !!
That elephant one is hilarious in fairness
@James Keane: that’s cause it’s true.
@Brendan Hughes: the funny thing is that if you remove the elephants, the cars look like they do every day if the week I.e stuck behind each other going no where
@Brendan Hughes: Cycling for 30 years in Dublin and never wore lyrca in my life. If you actually looked you would notice very few cycling commuters wear it. In fact you will see more pedestrians wearing it these days.
@Kal Ipers:
In fact, bikes work perfectly well in all manner of clothes. I generally wear jeans and a hoodie on mine. Some amount of elephants driving cars too, really angry unhealthy looking people, stuck in traffic.
@John Smith: i always side with cyclists in any general debate, but i have to agree with the message here. Cycling clubs and lycrad individuals generally do not respect road users and often tell you so. They treat them like private race tracks, because they legally can. Yes, we know you are “training”, we know your bike can potentially do 60, but places like howth are small roads where pedestrians walk and cars pass slowly. By all means “train” in isolated areas like the back of Sally’s gap and the Midlands, but unless the road is isolated for road racing, stay in single file and make way for other road users.
@Gulliver Foyle: why don’t all the car drivers just go away and drive somewhere else? Now do you see how silly your comment was?
@Gulliver Foyle: Cycling clubs are generally much safer on the roads than random groups, they know how to ride safely, two abreast, stop at lights etc..
After all, the club name and sponsors are on the jerseys, so they don’t wan to get them a bad name…
Would you rather overtake 30 riders cycling two abreast or 60 riders in a long single file line?
@brian magee: sounds like you’re one of these troubled cyclists who really has no respect for the road rules
@Dub_Right: The lycra-clad terrors where I live cycle three and four abreast and frequently refuse to fall back to two-abreast when traffic builds up behind them. They have also been seen sailing through red lights when they think it is safe to do so.
@Tom Sullivan: report them to their club secretary, you can find a list of these on the Cycling Ireland website
@Tom Sullivan: Do you ever notice cars sailing through red lights, while parents and kids are trying to cross at the green man, Tom? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk&t=7s
not all heroes wear capes……..
@David Peate: So original.
@David Peate: you’re confusing fantasy and reality there pal.
While i do find this funny, it is a bit odd that someone went to all this trouble to wind up some cyclists.
@alpha_chaarlie: you usually only have to beep your horn to piss them off
They take over Howth head every Sunday. Cycling at dangerous speeds downhill and ridiculously slow uphill two abreast. I’d imagine if you lived there it would be pretty annoying very fast.
@john Appleseed: and cats take it over the other 6 days of the week
@brian magee: that’s cats for ya
@john Appleseed: how fast do you expect people to cycle uphill?? And coming down hill it is quite hard to control your speed. If residents are annoyed by people getting fit then they have little to worry about. By the way, the coffee shops do good business from them.
@john Appleseed: Yea I mean logically they should cycle at speed uphill and crawl downhill? lol!
No they should cycle single file and remember it’s a road for traffic not a cycling trail
@john Appleseed: Mr. Appleseed I am sure you’re an Angel behind the wheel and never speed in your motor vehicle once, not even a little bit?
And p.s. Cyclists are traffic, therefore by your logic, it’s a Road for Cyclists.
@john Appleseed: they cycle doubled up so car drivers can overtake easier where the cyclists take up less space, instead of trying to overtake a line of them where you need a very long clear road. Stop sounding like you own the road, it’s for everyone to use and you have no right to make it more dangerous.
I see all the Sunday cyclists out this morning on the journal… I’ll tell you what I don’t do… I don’t EVER drive a 5 miles an hour with my friend driving beside while having a chat. I don’t drive a black car with all my lights off at NIGHT. I don’t hop on and off the path onto unsuspecting cars cos it bloody suits me. And I don’t drive round in clothes so tight that my ball sack is on display first thing on a Sunday morning.
@john Appleseed: last Sunday all I could was motorbikes at hi speed and revving their engines.
@john Appleseed: I’d say it’s been a good few years since you seen your ball sack John, those days are gone.
It’s terrible, Bill. Sometimes on a sunny day I get delayed by as much as ten seconds. After I’ve already sat in twenty minutes of traffic between Raheny and Sutton Cross because of all the cars.
@john Appleseed: Cyclists are legally allowed cycle side by side and is even recommended by the RSA
@john Appleseed: Good and you give cyclists at least 1 to 1.5 meters space when overtaking, you never break speed limits not even a little bit, you also never park in cycle lanes or cut into a bus lane to avoid traffic…
If so you are a rare thing on Irish roads…!
@john Appleseed: God, you really have or bad. Your ridiculous dislike for cyclist has escalated to their fashion seen see now!
Have we found our phantom sign poster?
@john Appleseed: it’s a road for everyone, motorists, cyclists and pedestrians. And I agree, they could cycle single file in places where the road narrows, that makes sense.
@Rob Devine: just because your allowed do something, doesnt mean you should.
@Aideen Pollard: if the road is narrow and you by law have to leave 1.5 metres to overtake, how would that change things? Unless you’re attempting to do an illegal close pass.
@Nellie Oneill: Just because you CAN drive doesn’t mean you should. See? It goes both ways
@john Appleseed: They ARE traffic, John – with the same rights to use the road as anyone else. They take up far less space than all the single-occupancy cars around them with four empty seats.
@john Appleseed: bikes are traffic
@john Appleseed: I do what makes it worse is inside the other two and three embrace going along the road between Baldoyle & portmarnock
There is usually between six and 10 of them in mainly between 45 and 60 years of age and they do think they are the roads I’ll come so many times I’ve nearly knocking one off the road and maybe I should
@David: another example of motorist rage against cyclists…why beep for no reason??
@Aideen Pollard: It might be even harder to control if pissed of locals decide to oil bits of the road.
@Gary Purcell: you’re threatening to possible kill someone on a public forum? Smart move.
The truth hurts. After 5-year-old children, cyclists are the most easily offended.
@Grainne Abdulaziz: moaning about others moaning. Oh the irony.
Cyclists deserve better protection and helmets being mandatory is a good start. Would help also if cyclists behave predictably and stop cycling on through red lights. Traffic stops at red lights and thus there’s a predictability and expectation of red means stop and green means go. When cars or cyclists choose to disregard that, accidents are inevitable.
@Gerry Carroll: Not stopping at red lights isnt the reason for the majority of accidents. It seems most accidents take place when a motorist or lorry driver cleans a cyclist out on a left turn. I have seen it many times. For some reason people think its ok to over take cyclists and immediately turn left or turn left across cycle lanes without looking at all.
@GunsGerms: And many times when I’m turning left I’ve had cyclists try to pass me. I have had to hug the kerb to deter them. Queue arm waving to me for holding them up.
@GunsGerms: irrelevant if it’s not the cause of the majority of accidents. It can still cause an accident, so people shouldn’t do it, and you shouldn’t try deflect attention away from condemning people who do it. By your logic, we shouldn’t make such a big deal of drink driving, because drink isn’t a factor in the majority of car crashes. But you’d hardly try to excuse that, would you? Not unless your name is Healy Rae….
@Gerry Carroll: Cycle helmets offer very very little protection. They cause drivers to drive closer to cyclists too. So they can be seen as a danger to wear. It is precisely the poor understanding of the protection a helmet gives that makes drivers act recklessly around cyclists.
Bring in the dangerous passing laws first and enforce the laws in place and this would be way better than mandatory helmets. The other day I was in a cycle lane on a path with a hi vis jacket and helmet. A driver mounted the pavement to park in the cycle lane and missed me by an inch. Profusely apologetic but not enough to not park in a cycle lane and gave me the ” I didn’t see you”. They didn’t see me because they weren’t looking.
@Kal Ipers: As someone who has had a bicycle helmet mean the difference between a soft knock and my head bouncing along the ground for 2 metres, I get really annoyed when I see fellow cyclists discouraging others from wearing a helmet. By all means don’t wear one if you don’t want to, but don’t be putting other people off who might be swayed. Any driver who would try less to get past someone safely because they’ve a helmet on is a psychopath and not representative of an average driver. In other words, they’re not concerned with your safety, helmet or no helmet.
@Jumperoo: It is relevant in the context of the comment I was replying to. Going through red lights isnt the main cause of cyclist fatalities not even close. A good start would to stop treating cyclists like cars.
@Ronan McKeon that does happen too but you arent likely to be knocked down by a cyclist in your car are you? Its also logical to hug the curb as you have to cross a cycle lane when you turn. I doubt you would cross a vehicle lane at the last minute to turn left why is it ok to do it on a cycle lane?
@GunsGerms: you were still deflecting attention away from condemnation of something illegal, reckless, and dangerous. Going through red lights isn’t the main cause of car crash fatalities either, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to do it or that those who do it should be tolerated.
@Harry Bookless: I get really annoyed when people exaggerate the safety provided by helmets. I wear a helmet but am under no illusions to the amount of protection it gives. I have had people tell me their helmet saved their life and explain how their helmet was cracked. What that actually means is the helmet failed. They are meant to compress and if they crack it is because it didn’t compress and the impact was above the helmets threshold. Like your example if you skidded along the ground the helmet was very little protection other the cuts. The force of the impact wasn’t going to your head but spread to move you forward. The helmet was probably the cause of you hitting your head by enlarging the area of your head. Personal choice needs to be informed
@Jumperoo: If people are really interested in reducing fatalities then saying “Cyclists deserve better protection…..would help if cyclists behave predictably and stop cycling through red lights” is deflecting from the real reasons why there are so many cyclist fatalities and placing blame on cyclists for coming off second best in collisions with cars.
I think we are debating different things. However, on the subject of red lights and the rules of the road in general they were formulated with cars in mind. I dont think the same rules should apply to two completely different entities. For me that is a square peg solution to round hole problems. It isnt unreasonable for cyclists to take free left turns at traffic lights for example when they are turning onto a cycle lane.
The loudest voices for helmets are nearly always people who never cycle. The psychology behind this is very interesting. Statistically, there’s more benefit in drivers wearing helmets than cyclists. No one ever suggests mandatory helmets for drivers because everyone would think you were deranged.
@GunsGerms: at the approach to junctions a cycle lane is no longer an exclusive lane. The markings change from a continuous white line at the other boundary to a broken white line indicating that the lane us now shared by all traffic. There are many other points I could make here but I don’t have to because I am right and this is just a comments section.
@Ronan McKeon: What has that got to do with anything? Not sure what your point is. “I am right” Does that mean you win?
@GunsGerms: I’d agree with you on the left turn thing, same as I’d have no problems with cars being allowed to turn left even at a red light if there’s nothing coming from the right hand side, similar to how the Americans have the same rule in reverse since they drive on the opposite side. But I can’t accept that the same laws shouldn’t apply to two different entities. If, as cyclists say, the roads are there to be used by everybody, then the road laws must apply to everybody.
@Jumperoo: Hi Jumperoo. Thanks for your response. I dont agree with you for a few reasons. Firstly cars and bikes are very different so applying the same rules is always going to be problematic which is why cycle lanes exist which is in itself a seperate rule. Secondly, regulation is driven by a number of different factors. Risk is one big one. In any regualtory environment the riskier entities are always subject to greater regulation. Bicycles do not represent the same risk as cars so its not reasonable to expect the same rules to apply because it simply becomes less attractive to cycle.
Finally, regulation should be driven by end goals. If safety is the end goal then whatever policy or laws are in place in my opinion they should promote less driving and more cycling because it is infinitely safer to cycle and represents many other benefits too.
@Gerry Carroll: “Traffic stops at red lights”? That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week, Gerry. Check out the video and tell me again who needs to ‘behave predictably and stop breaking red lights’? Motorists kill 200 people each year, including 50 pedestrians. Cyclists kill zero people each year.
I do agree with you about mandatory driving helmets though. Given the vast majority of head injuries occur in cars, all drivers should have helmets all the time.
@Gerry Carroll: Ooops – forgot to link to the video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk&t=7s
@GunsGerms: Regulation is not driven by risk. It is driven by revenue.
@Tom Sullivan: No regulation isnt driven by revenue. Bad regulation is driven by revenue. Outlawing rape (extreme example) for example isnt driven by revenue it is driven by risk of sexual abuse and its negative implications on society, like all regulation by a certain extent.
Not in the least offended by these posters, if they deter you from cycling, then you didn’t really want to cycle to begin with. But someone definitely has too much time on their hands
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: definitely the work of one of the millionaires on the hill. Probably got Sutton park school to do it as a transition year project in exchange for a new hockey surface.
@Gulliver Foyle: jealous are you ?
As someone who has lost a relative in the last year through a cycling accident. I think we all need to calm down and have some respect for each other. How much time does being stuck behind a cyclist really hold you up as a motorist ? As a cyclist how much time does running a red light really save you? Lack of respect is shown by both sides.Road rules are there to be observed by everyone. Just remember as you approach a cyclist on the road , they could be your mate , your neighbour or your son or daughter. If not ,they are sombody else’s. We would love to see them get home safely.
@dermot mc ginn: best comment here today.. both need to respect each other. It’s gotten ridiculous lately
@dermot mc ginn: It isn’t just cyclists vs motorists. It is also a matter of cyclists cycling in places where they should not, such as on footpaths and the danger this represents to pedestrians. Even though cycling on the footpath is against the law, I don’t really mind those who slow down when approaching pedestrians. Its the “get out of my way” type that really needs to be dealt with.
@Tom Sullivan: Tom, 50 pedestrians are killed by motorists each year, about 1 each week. The last time a cyclist killed a pedestrian was 2002. This might help you to put the risk of cyclists on pavements into context.
@Shane Hogan: he didn’t mention death, but thanks for the stats
@Jonathan Foley: Do you want to get into the stats for those maimed by motorists too?
That has to be some of the lowest quality illustration work I’ve seen in a long time. Can’t see them getting a job in advertising.
But apart from the poor quality artwork isn’t it sad to see people try to put a stop to our healthiest mode of transport, in support of the pollution producing petrol guzzlers destroying your children’s air quality.
The ignorance is astounding especially with so many recent deaths of cyclists on our roads.
@Scundered: its funny
@Scundered: not to mention the backwards facing handlebars in one of the posters
While people will think this is funny it shows the agression directed at cyclists. When the Gardai come out a blame cyclists for bad driving behaviour and claim cyclists need an attitude change it is obvious there isn’t protection for vulnerable road users then we have a problem.
@Kal Ipers: even the posters show tailgating which is commonplace by poor motorists, threatening someone using a car as a weapon needs to be taken seriously. Too many deaths recently.
@Scundered: pretty hard not to ‘tailgate’ something that’s probably only moving at 15mph maximum.
@Jumperoo: you just press the brake pedal and create more space. It’s really that easy.
@Scundered: okay. Let’s see if we’re in the same ballpark here. How much of a gap do you consider okay? Five yards? Twenty? Fifty?
@Jumperoo: It all depends on vehicle class and weather conditions, but usually 2 – 4 seconds would be reasonable.
Seriously, did you ever learn to drive or did you just get your licence out of a lucky bag?
@Jumperoo: I’d recommend going out for the day on a bike yourself. See how close cars get to you when they’re behind you and passing you. Experience the shock of a car flying past you inches from your handle bar or driving right up behind you as if they’re trying to force you to cycle faster. Remember these things when you’re driving your cars and then adjust your driving habits to be more compassionate to other road users.
I’m all for healthy living but cyclists have no respect for the rules of the road. They pull out in front of motorists without warning, no hand signals used, they break red lights they cycle 2 abreast. Cyclists should be treated like every other road user and lose penalty points if they break the rules. This is the case in some European countries such as Germany.
@Revolting Peasant: two to four seconds at the 15mph example we’re using here is approximately 15 to 30 yards. Be realistic, now. When was the last time you saw a line of slow-moving vehicles – any vehicles – strung out with a 30 yard gap between each one, or even 15 yards? Also, should it work both ways? For example, what would you say to the cyclist who followed me through town this morning while I was in slow traffic, not more than two or three yards from my back bumper, and then tried unsuccessfully to squeeze up a narrow gap on the inside when I had to slow down further?
@Sharon O’sullivan Gerhardt: “Should be treated like every other road user” – like the drivers you see in this video, then Sharon? When are these drivers going to get their fines and penalty points? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk&t=7s
@Sharon O’sullivan Gerhardt: cycling 2 abreast is legal….and don’t tar them all with the same brush.
George Hook is the word on the street
After the recent deaths of cyclists in the city, this is in particularly bad taste.
It’s a lot of personal time and effort to defer cycling. It a a small part of the prevalent anti cycling bias in Ireland. Motoring is so expensive in Ireland that some motorists believe that they have bought to privilege not to share room with cyclists.
@Tony Daly: I don’t think so. It’s not drivers privilege, you literally have to drive expecting a cyclist might do something stupid. In the past week I’ve had two near misses, both times their fault, both times without a helmet. Note to cyclists – you’re also expected to help keep yourself alive on the road!
@Linda: As a cyclists you have to assume every one is going to do something stupid and also do something intentional to harm you. In the past week I have had about 20 drivers intentionally try to block the cycle lane as I approached.
@Linda: You literally have to drive according to what you learned in driving school, i.e. “expect the unexpected” on the roads… so well done for that..
Also helmets don’t cure stupid…
@Kal Ipers: I hope those drivers ended up with a wobbly wing mirror :)
@Kal Ipers: Intentionally hurt you? Why would they?
@Dub_Right: It’s hardly unexpected with cyclists but thank you! I do value my life and others… As for cyclists, if we’re going to share the road, then we should have equal road safety education – helmets, hi-vis and licence!
@Kal Ipers: Yep Kal as a cyclist you must always be aware of motorists doing something stupid like opening a car door in front of you as you pass, pulling out in front of you (happens daily), cutting you off on left turns, driving up behind you and beeping (can knock you off your bike), driving too close to you, pulling over or parking on cycle lanes etc. These things happen regularly in Dublin.
@Linda: Look at the aggression towards cyclists here and on the story yesterday. There are lots of aggressive people out there and they don’t like to be delayed by cyclists for milliseconds. It is a regular occurrence to anybody who cycles regularly.
@Linda: Sorry Linda, you can’t say that a 70kg cyclist on a 8kg bike is in anyway equal to a 90kg driver in a 1800kg motor vehicle… and no amount of helmets, hi-vis and licences will ever equal that up…!
@Tony Daly: I think there’s some cognitive dissonance going on. Suppose you commute from Howth to the city centre every day. Eventually you can’t fail to notice that all the bikes you pass before you get to Vernon Avenue then come past you. The cyclists are showered and at their desks before you.
But wait, you are making the superior choices. You spent tens of thousands on a car, more thousands on running it, probably twenty quid just to park it for the day. How is that not superior? So something must be wrong. It must be THE CYCLISTS who are causing this. They break rules! They don’t pay their fair share! If they’re hurt, it must be their fault!
@Kal Ipers: Well I’m not aggressive to cyclists, I’m a good driver, never had a single ticket or so much as a fender bender, driven in plenty of countries in lots of conditions and yet cyclists in Dublin make me nervous.
@Dub_Right: So you’re saying cyclists are too vunerable to be sharing the roads? Or cars shouldn’t be allowed? Or cyclists shouldn’t even attempt to be safer? I’m not seeing your point here. Btw, why are cyclists 70kg and drivers 90kg?
@Linda: You’re demanding that the same conditions such a licencing be placed on a person who wishes to be in control of a vehicle which can drive at 200kph and cause death and serious injuries be also placed on a humble bicyclist, who’s basically a pedestrian on two wheels? Doesn’t make sense and will do NOTHING to protect vulnerable roads users lives, people are just skin and bone, when in a vehicle you have 100′s of kgs of protection around you…So the greater responsibility lies with the person who’s chosen to control a motor vehicle, to ensure he or she gives a pedestrian or cyclist more time, space and distance when encountering such road user.
Also studies have shown that daily cyclists are fitter, less obese, and thus lighter than someone who chooses to sit in a motor vehicle for hours each day…
@Dub_Right: Right so, well you give your skin and bones chat to the cyclist the other day who overtook another cyclist in the bike lane by riding in front of me, without looking, without doing the hand indicator motion thing, wasn’t wearing a helmet and who I could have easily missed if I had been checking my mirrors or checking my speed or one of the other safety things I have to do on the roads. Only for I had been watching him because cyclists do stupid things! Your fitness level means nothing if you’re dead.
@Linda: If you’ve had two near misses Linda, you might need to change your driving style. And please do wear your driving helmet at all times. Far more head injuries occur in cars than on bikes, so you really should protect yourself by wearing your helmet at all times.
@Linda: Not always possible to give hand-signals as the road may have potholes in it which would cause the bicyclist to lose control of his cycle.
Also, if you gave enough room for the bicyclist then it wouldn’t have been such a shock to you… Don’t forget, the lines of paint on the road for bicyclists doesn’t signify the maximum distance that a motor vehicle should give to the bicyclist.
And I don’t see what the absence of a piece of Styrofoam on his head has to do with the prevention of the maneuver you witnessed?
@Shane Hogan: Yeah, apart from that near miss I mentioned above, the other (this week) was a cyclist who took off from parked on my right, signalled he was going to move left and immediately did so without looking. Yup, I need to rethink my driving skills for sure!
@Dub_Right: Seriously, how can you possibly defend a cyclist that left a bike lane, to move into traffic without looking? I’m not arguing with you about the benefits of wearing a helmet, that’s just insane! Look, it’s your life, you do as you wish, me personally I’m not about to let pigheadedness kill me, nor am I going to stop watching those damn, stupid cyclists because I don’t want to kill them either. Right or wrong if I’m the most vulnerable on the road I’m going to take extra care because I’d rather live longer than sit on my high horse, you should consider the same!
@Linda: Bicyclists are entitled to cycle in the middle of the road if they so choose and overtake other bicyclists..
Motorists need to be aware of that and give as much space to the vulnerable road users as possible..
@Linda: If it was a ‘near miss’ Linda, you were too close. Try leaving more space between you and vulnerable road users.
@Dub_Right: Yes dub but you should never merge without looking first whether you’re a bike/car/truck/pedestrian. Horrendous that you need to be told that, driver privilege eh?
@Shane Hogan: You’re too clever for me Shane…
@Linda: In your example, the bicyclist was overtaking another bicyclist, of which is perfectly legal, he/she may have looked back(without you noticing) and judged it to be safe, however with the massive speed differential between a motor vehicle and a bicycle then a motor vehicle may appear to come out of no-where… add that with the potential close pass of the motorist and you have an incident where the motorist was “totally shocked” by this bicyclist..
@Dub_Right: And when I’m legally allowed to overtake l don’t unless I look first. It was peak hour, no one was going anywhere fast, and he didn’t look, that’s why I’m telling the story! It wouldn’t have been a major collision but it would’ve hurt him and it was completely unnecessary for the sake of just looking! And what if another cyclist was coming up behind him faster and preparing to overtaking him?? Nope, he’s a dope! I wasn’t surprised either, even having this conversation with you, there’s a mentality amongst cyclists and a lack of basic road rules that makes you a dangerous group to keep your eye on.
@Linda: Why don’t you get on your bike!
…and into some lycra, i’d say you look amazing xx
@Linda: why would they? They do, probably because of all the anti cycling crap put out by people like George Hook
It’s not the cyclists they should be worried about, it’s like the Isle of Man TT most nights! While I’m a petrol head it’s only a matter of time before a bike hits a poor bunch of tourists and takes a few of them out.
Anyone notice that cyclists lights are getting brighter and brighter?you’d land plane with some off them they are so bright.
@Red hurley: If you noticed them they are doing their job.
@Red hurley: I’d welcome lights getting brighter. Too many still don’t use lights at all. I was driving in my local town last night just as it was getting dark, and passed two cyclists at two different places. Neither had lights. At least the first one was wearing high vis, so I saw him from a good distance and could give him a wide berth. The second one was just wearing a dark jacket, and so I didn’t see him until much closer. Was still able to pass him safely, but if somebody else was driving too fast or less responsibly than myself, he’d have been in more danger than the first fellow. And yet many cyclists protest about being asked or expected to wear high vis. I simply don’t understand it.
@Red hurley: lol you literally can’t please anyone on this toxic site.
Cyclists lights are too bright now!! Unbelievable.
@Jumperoo: There are tons of idiots in every mode of transport. The thing with hi-vis jackets is every bicycle has reflectors on their peddles. I don’t think it is even possible to get them without them but maybe if you try really hard you can find them. Doesn’t make up for not having lights but it doesn’t make a hi-vis jacket necessary.
I think I might get some hi vis jackets made up with “PAINT SCRAPPER” on the back as that would probably make a difference as drivers worry about their cars more than human life.
@Jumperoo: “…but if somebody else was driving too fast or less responsibly than myself, he’d have been in more danger than the first fellow. And yet many cyclists protest about being asked or expected to wear high vis. I simply don’t understand it.”
Perhaps that’s because cyclists are not one homogeneous mass, but are different people with different attitudes to cycling, in the same way that your attitude to driving is more responsible than some other motorists’.
Stop generalising, and remember that people who do things badly will always exist in all aspects of life, even on The Journal.
@Fergus Fring: no seriously some of them are actually blinding.when drivers see another car approaching we have to dim our lights cyclists can’t.
@Red hurley: I agree that some of the cycle lights are way too bright. I have wing mirrors on my bicycle and they are blinding in the reflection. There is one guy on my route that uses a potholing head light and it has dazzled me more than once. Mentioned it to him once and he got really aggressive and has made comments ever since when I go by him.
@Kal Ipers: try fitting a giant mirror on front of your bike, that’ll sort him out
@Kal Ipers: reflectors on pedals are some use all right, but what size are they? Maybe three inches wide by half an inch high? And they’re only about knee high from the ground. A high vis or reflective jacket or even band is much bigger and much more likely to be in a motorist’s sight line. I simply can’t accept your argument. It would be like saying that since we could just turn on the small secondary lights on our cars, there’s no need to turn on the headlights too.
@Type17: all right then, by your logic, all motorists are not one homogenous mass either, and all have different views and opinions. Therefore, if somebody wants to drink drive, or drive without wearing a seat belt, that should be their perogative, the same way as you say it should be up to individual cyclists whether or not to wear a high vis jacket that could help save them from injury or death.
@Red hurley: The new ones are like Leigh lights, and strobe epileptically, blinding you which ever side of the road they’re approaching you on (and they may be on either side, randomly) and generally pointed right into your eyes. No NCT for bicycles to make sure their lights are focused properly.
@Jumperoo: This research might help you to understand one of the reasons why cyclists object to mandatory hi-vis. Cyclists should have decent lights. If they have lights, you’ll see them. If you can’t see a cyclist with lights, you need to hand in your keys. http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/university-bath-research-shows-cyclists-outfits/story-20222781-detail/story.html
@Red hurley: jazus we can’t win, now we cyclists are TOO visible on the roads? Is that what you’re saying?
In the last two weeks I have nearly been clipped three times by cars passing me out far too close while out cycling. I have a visible rear light, bright cycling gear and cycle as far to the side of the road as possible. A couple of cars have also nearly driven head on into oncoming traffic to rush overtaking me.
@Hughiealonso: yes, unfortunately there will always be some idiot drivers out there, and we all encounter them every day as we drive our own cars too. But in the same time of the last two weeks, you’ve probably been passed properly and safely by thousands of drivers, due in part to you being so visible with your clothing and lighting. Fair play to you for taking as much responsibility as possible for your safety, and I just don’t understand why others don’t do the same.
@Hughiealonso: just noticed you only say you have a visible rear light. Do you also have a front light? If not, then why not?
@Jumperoo: It only takes one careless driver.. and that’s it!… You’re in a wheelchair for life getting fed by spoon or worse you’re in a Casket 6 feet under!
@Jumperoo: I only cycle during the day when i should be very visible. I use the flashing light at the back to highlight even further that I’m there. I don’t think the forward light would really be needed
@Hughiealonso: it definitely is needed. You want to be seen coming up the left of drivers in their side mirrors, right?
@Harry Bookless: I’m a leisure cyclist. Don’t cycle up the inside of any cars
@Dub_Right: yeah, but that’s not unique to cyclists. It can happen to pedestrians or other drivers or their passengers too. Look, I’m not teting to make excuses here for bad driving, nor am I teting to suggest that cyclists are always the problem. I’m just saying that because there are bad drivers out there, cyclists could and should take more safety precautions for themselves, and I don’t understand why some don’t do so and are in fact strongly opposed to the idea of being asked to do so.
@Hughiealonso: fair enough if you only cycle during the day. A front light might still be some help, the way turning on the dipped headlights of a car can help on a gloomy day, but your high vis should make you visible anyway.
@Jumperoo: That is good advice. Lights on cars and bikes are as much to bee seen, as to see.
A cycle of abuse
Delighted, when are they being ‘rolled out’ country wide.
The new narrow width of the Clontarf coast road is causing the hassle getting to Howth. Its not worth going there anymore and on a sunny day, debatable whether you can get there. No wonder there is an anti cyclist feeling as they are the only ones moving in the grid locked traffic.
@Melissa O’Callaghan: how does a narrower road cause it? It was a single lane before.
@Melissa O’Callaghan: If you can’t beat them, join them eh?
@Dub_Right: yes that explains the fatties in lycra – only ones who can get the icecream and scones. Its worth considering. Not sure how narrowing the road makes a difference but try getting near sutton or howth.
@Melissa O’Callaghan: Baahaahaa, blaming cyclists for the grid-locked traffic. You’re so funny, Linda. This really is a post-ironic pro-cyclist comment, isn’t it?
@Melissa O’Callaghan: so everyone should get in their cars instead, is that your answer to this? More traffic jams. More unhealthy people. More pollution. God help this country.
@Shane Hogan: no blaming the council for narrowing the coast road so that two cars can hardly pass. You have to breathe in these days if there is a SUV going in the other direction. The traffic is dreadful and the only way to get to howth on a sunny day by road is by bike.
@Melissa O’Callaghan: Could you be slightly exaggerating there, Melissa? What particular spot or junction is it too narrow for an SUV? I’ll have a look on Google Maps and check the dimensions. But it is interesting that you blame the cyclists and not the ever-increasing size of SUVs for the problem – why is that now?
Practical jokers
Cyclists are the vegan feminists of the road. Say something I dont agree with and ill have you silenced! The elephants are quite an accurate representation of how cyclists act on the road. Keep the posters up!
@Karl Bauer: how many elephants have you seen riding bicycles? Have you been taking LSD again?
@Karl Bauer: Elephants rarely use bicycles, they prefer faster means of transport
https://www.askideas.com/media/08/Elephant-Riding-Bike-Funny-Picture.jpg
@Karl Bauer: Bit of a victim complex there, Karl. How could anyone have you silenced? They could certainly point out how you’re talking nonsense with facts and data, but they can’t have you silenced.
More cars on the road!!!
Oh wait, our Carbon Emissions have gone through the roof,
exceeded EU levels and we’re going to be fined millions if we don’t….
More cars on the road!!!!!!
We pay car tax for the roads ? And we pay for cycle lanes , down with the bike tires , or make them pay for using our cycle lanes ?
@Colmokeefe: You pay motor tax for emissions and general taxation pays for roads. Drivers do not pay the costs associated with driving if they did tax would be higher for car use.
@Colmokeefe: Cyclists pay lots of tax, Colm – given that their salaries are higher than others on average. When are motorists going to start paying for the 4,000 premature deaths each year caused by excess emissions?
@Colmokeefe: any cyclist I know also has a car…. I can guarantee that about 80% of the cyclist going up howth head have a car also!
@Colmokeefe: You pay for nothing cycle related.
@Shane Hogan: Have you got any evidence to back up that “statistic” or have you pulled it straight from your lycra-clad nether regions?
@Tom Sullivan: Google is your friend…
@Tom Sullivan: I pulled from the European EPA report last year, Tom. Go check it out and report back with your views and your plans for motorists to starting paying their way.
@Colmokeefe: what’s it like to be a clueless gobshíte? Genuine question.
They’re not elephants, they’re M.A.M.I.L.s……middle aged men in lycra! Seriously though the poster poster needs a better hobby or grudge.
Totally agree with the signs and I don’t drive a car. Reality check for those rude cyclists who don’t follow any rule of the road and have no respect for pedestrians or drivers.
@Giuseppe Angellotti: In general motorists and pedestrians represent a greater danger to cyclists than the other way round. Pedestrians tend to step out in front of cyclists on roads or cycle paths without looking where they are going because bikes dont make noise. Cyclists are much less likely to ride up on the footpath in front of or collide with pedestrians because they arent looking where they are going. There are very few motorist casualties caused by cyclists relative to cyclist deaths caused by motorists.
@Giuseppe Angellotti: 82% of motorists broke speed limits in the last RSA speed survey Guiseppe. So tell me again who doesn’t follow any rule of the road?
Shouldn’t be difficult to find out who put these up, they’ll be bragging about them at their next NeighbourhoodWatch meeting.
Small minded Ireland is alive and well. Fingal CC should proceed to fine this couch potatoe for littering.
@Martin O’Brien: I think we should fine people who can’t spell potato.
Try living in Howth when these cycling lunatics come hurtling down the hill at break neck speeds.
@Joan Doran Kennedy: Only last week I saw a bicyclist overtake a butterfly, I almost called the Gards to catch this two-wheeled menace!
@Joan Doran Kennedy: they probably do a max of 60 but that’s the really fast one. If say most cars do faster.
Also one sign says slow down the other gives out about them going slow
@Joan Doran Kennedy: the green cross code is a wonderful thing. It teaches people to look before crossing the road, otherwise known as common sense.
@Scundered: Exactly pedestrians are more likely to step out in front of a cyclist or an electric car because they dont make noise. Simply looking where you are going solves this issue.
Where can I buy copies?
Is that George Hook in lycra?
Someone has a little grudge against cyclists and too much time on their hands. I don’t particularly care what you think of a hobby that brings me happiness, keeps me fit and saves me money. I do think all road users have a responsibility to stay safe, no one owns the road.
Hopefully I can enjoy my sole and chips in howth today without having to see some fat gits lunchbox or a camel toe in my face
Who ever put these up deserves a high five
@howisthat: Hopefully car and bicycle drivers can get around all the fat gits slobbering around the place with there hands in a massive bag of greasy chips?
@Dub_Right: it’s Friday before Easter I’m not eating my normal good food as can’t have meat and that’s bad enough without having to look at the lyrca stretching brigade
@howisthat: which is the most likely to suffer from a fat problem, the cyclist or the chip eater?
@Scundered: the one who has a balanced diet and doesn’t shove their organs or bits into a microbe
@howisthat: good luck with that deep fat fried balanced diet.
@howisthat: Have you tried not starting at other people’s crotches? That generally works for me.
@Shane Hogan: when I’m sitting at the brass monkey outside with a glass of red wine and a twa t or twa tess sticks it in your face while your sitting there you can’t miss it especially when they cover half the pathway
@howisthat: Why do you feel the need to make up ridiculous stories in order to have a go at cyclists? Did you produce the posters yourself? The obsession is all inside your head.
They are not anti-cycling. They are anti – ‘I own the road and will not let you pass’ cyclists. There is a big difference.
@Trish Loughman: but trish if you look at the elephant one, what’s behind them? A queue of cars all thinking that own the road.
@Trish Loughman: Who do you think owns the road, Trish? And what kind of sense of entitlement do you have that you expect people to move over for you?
Bang on.
About time honestly. Way too much information on a Sunday morning.
@Cathal Leonard: Sunday Morning ?
Today is Friday, Good Friday.
@Cathal Leonard: It’s like Sunday only you can’t go down the boozer. Well. Officially you can’t.
Very funny indeed. As a cyclist myself who looks wonderful in my Lycra , I will continue to visit that wonderful part of Dublin. So beware any motorists in the area at the weekends.
@John Moore: No man looks wonderful in Lycra. They all, to the man, look like total plonkers.
@Tom Sullivan: Have you considered spending less time looking at what the men in lycra are wearing? I never cease to be amazed at how concerned some people get about male cyclists’ clothing. But rarely a mention of the mammies in lycra doing the shopping or the school run – just the men. Why the obsession with other men’s clothing, Tom?
It is not surprising that whoever vented their anger in this fashion was from the Howth/Sutton area. Traffic along the coast road from Clontarf as far as Blackbanks has been configured down to two very narrow lanes with zero give for vehicles passing each other. Put a cyclist at the top of the queue and you’d better off travelling by carrier pigeon.
@@MsMacAvoy: Simple answer, don’t pass, it’s a residential area with peoples homes and driveways to your left as you drive towards Sutton.. And a 50kph speed limit..due to water mains works..
If you really need to get past someone quickly then leave for your destination earlier…
@@MsMacAvoy: Perhaps you need to get a smaller car? All these huge SUVs with four or six empty seats wasting all that space on the road is the real problem. Try a nice little Yaris and you’ll have loads of room.
Further normalisation of motorist hatred of cyclists. Which seems harmless until the attitude infects a few fools who make that close pass that clips a cyclist and causes serious injury or death.
@Crom Cruach: It certain doesn’t do anything to change the attitude of my local “brightly-coloured lycra” fanclub who still cycle three and sometimes four abreast, ignoring the rights of other road users.
@Ronan McKeon: you wouldn’t cut in front of another car if you were changing lanes to turn, so why do it when it’s a cyclist?
@Francois A: but theres no “lanes” on the hill of Howth..
@Francois A: where did I say anything about cutting in?
See you on the hill this Sunday
The recent cycling stories on thejournal.ie obviously exceeded their clickometer so the advertisers knew they had to put up more about cycling. This story is hilarious and it looks like Dave McManus is looking for a reason to be offended. I wonder is he still walking or cycling about the place saying “this is very strange”. Prediction for upcoming stories onthejournal.ie: ‘MY JOURNEY THROUGH HELL: CYCLING AMONGST MANIAC DRIVERS, I ALMOST LOST MY MIND’ and ‘DRIVEN TO FRUSTRATION; HOW BEING STUCK BEHIND 400 CYCLISTS HAS CHANGED MY PERSPECTIVE ON LIFE’
@Nick Drake: I think you’re right Nick, I can see all the staff at The Journal high fiving and back slapping having found a rich new seam of bitterness and begrudgery to mine.
@Revolting Peasant: Why so much bitterness though? is it because cyclists are generally fitter and better looking than car drivers, or is it that they have a predictable commute times whilst all the mugs sit in traffic?
@Nick Drake: he isn’t offended
Glad to hear about this new route, see you all Sunday, I’ll bring friends too..
See you there Brendan, sounds like a perfect route with many potential Sunday drivers to annoy, might break out the extra short lycra too.
LOL they’re bang on!!
As someone who used to cycle the hill of Howth most days of the week, the posters are spot on. The amount of lycra wearing gimps coming down right in the middle of the road is a joke. Only a matter of time before some of them get mowed down
I think their super and i am a cyclist.
Some snowflake driver has gone to a lot of effort to make themselves look like a childish idiot. Cartoons against cyclists!!! That will show them! Drivers won’t be happy until all cyclists are back in their cars clogging up to roads, adding to the pollution problem.
All road users need to learn to respect one another.
I too am off to Howth on Sunday for a cycle in my tightest shorts, but I’m old, fat, unfit and really slow up hill. Can’t wait!
Who’s behind me?
@Revolting Peasant: I’ll be ahead of you!
Howth is lovely, I can see why people would want to cycle out there, would it be possible to put some bike lanes in place, so people can cycle out there on a weekend from dublin?
@Ben Coughlan: noooo
@Ben Coughlan: ha ha! That is very funny. Its only taken 2yrs to do that and they still haven’t finished instead they have covered as much as they can with concrete – walls and massive paths that no one will walk on and narrowed the road to a cart track.
@john Appleseed: What more suitable use do you have in mind for Howth Head on a Sunday morning? It’s the scenic route into a coastal village and practically a national park, not a motorway!
Lot of effort gone into them for sure. It shows the underlying contempt for cyclists however, which hopefully will become a thing of past in time. The snowflake rubbish so predictable, seven months since my sister was killed cycling to work, it still amazes me how stranfe some people’s perceptions are. But hey, live and let live. Happy Easter everyone.
Last week I was driving on a 100KM/H stretch of road which is and notorious for crashes, some unfortunately have been fatal. There were 20 cyclists all travelling in this stretch of road which does not have a cycle lane or a decent hard shoulder. Many cyclists were weaving in and out of each other. I was first is the “queue” of traffic and I was being beeped by cars behind me for not over taking, where it would be illegal and dangerous to do. My biggest concern as a driver isn’t cyclists taking up road space but that I would be at fault if one of them got a wobble and fell in front of my car. This is neither fault of cyclist or driver in my opinion, the councils need to mimic the likes of Denmark and create proper, wide cycling lanes to ensure safety of everyone on the rod.
@Elizabeth Keogh: You’re wrong, if you hit a fallen cyclist it is your fault. Read the rules of the road to find out why and learn to drive.
@Revolting Peasant: Obviously I’m not going to deliberately drive over someone whose fallen on the road. Im referring to cyclists who abuse this by cutting across lanes without warning or signalling. It’s dangerous, if there are rules of the road for drivers. There has to be sufficient rules that cyclists need to adhere to as well. It’s about creating safety for everyone.
@Elizabeth Keogh: If you are within wobbling distance, you are way too close. Stay further back or further away and you and the cyclists will be safe.
Not anti cyclist , maybe pro safety.
@Richard Flanagan: What safety issues do you see in the posters, Richard?
I have seen some of these cyclists myself and too be fair fat beardy cyclists wearing skin tight shorts and red beards should be banned from the roads as apart from being a danger to other road users they are endanger of having a stroke or a heart attack!
@Paul Mc: They are far less likely to have a stroke or heart attack than the fat beardy drivers sitting beside the wheel building up their beer bellies.
So true… arrogant cyclists I should know I live around area
I will be more than happy to help that person put up signs from howth to Malahide
@Gary Purcell: and you don’t sound a bit arrogant by that tarring comment.
@Gary Purcell: Why ‘arrogant’ Gary? Are they supposed to ask your permission before they go for a ride or what?
There are 3types of cyclists- the commuter cyclist& the ‘training’ cyclist almost all wear helmets and with the cycle to work scheme most have lights and proper bright gear on. I’ve really have no problem with them.
The third type is the gobsh*#e cyclist who is cycling to the local shop, his mates house or 5 aside training. They think cause it’s 2miles down the road ‘I’ll be grand’. Wear dark clothes, no lights, no helmets -yep these type annoy me
Regardless of what type of cyclist we (drivers) need patience and stay vigilant. If u pass a cyclist &then come to a light-check ur mirrors and give them a bit of room to go up the inside-use our common sense. Yes some cyclist do stupid things, but generally I’ve had more drivers annoy me than cyclists
@Aileen connolly: Welk Aileen, don’t you know to a lot of these commentators and the brainless clowns who took the time to make these posters, Cyclists are just one group… like Muslims for example or Irish Travellers…
@Aileen connolly: Not sure why you’re so concerned about their helmets? Vast majority of head injuries occur in cars, not bikes – so you should really be wearing a driving helmet at all times if you’re concerned about head injuries.
Cyclists should be, 1. banned from vehicle using roads or 2. All cyclists availing of vehicle using roads should have insurance and pay tax for doing so. The number of vehicles on the road increases every year and in order to solve the problem we will eventually have to do one of these things. Personally I believe that taxing cyclists and using the money to create a full and separate cycling system where they are free from the danger of Cars, Vans and Lorries would be the best idea (though unpractical in Dublin City centre) Good work could be done using the two canals and perhaps making an elevated cycle-ways in some areas. http://road.cc/content/news/217380-longest-elevated-cycle-path-world-opens-china
@Tom Steward: What risk would you want cyclists to insure against, Tom? Given that they are the one group of road users that don’t kill and maim people on the road, I’m not sure what particular risk you have in mind? And as for tax, you seem to be confused about how roads are funded. Roads are not paid by motor tax. A car is simply an easy way to collect tax. Money goes into the central pot, and is used for hospitals, schools and in some cases, roads. Cyclists contribute to general taxation too of course, through income taxes on their higher than average salaries, spending taxes on their bike purchase, accessories and maintenance. And most of them paid motor tax for the car they left sitting in their driveway in order to reduce the size of your traffic jam. But motor tax doesn’t come near paying for the actual cost of motoring. In particular, it does nothing to cover the cost of carbon emissions coming from cars – which are a major factor in 4,000 premature deaths each year from poor air quality. When are motorists going to start paying their way.
A refreshing change, something more humorous than election posters, and by design provokes ‘useful’ public debate (unlike election processes !) The 1.5 metre rule will provide for much argument in the motoring courts no doubt. I presume this warrant of care extends to the cyclist who will now also give pavement dwellers an equal space. This puts them mid way in a 3 metre wide ‘control’ zone, which in ‘old money’ has got to be a man and a half, or 9 feet?
I’m not sure there now ted, ‘ could you show me a metre’ ?
@Jonathan Cully: ‘Equal space’? Maybe when cyclists kill 15-20 pedestrians a year there might be a need to start talking about ‘equal space’. The danger is far from equal.
@Hughiealonso: It sounds illogical, but don’t stay in as far to the side of the road as possible. This only encourages drivers to think there is room for them to stay in your lane when overtaking, and therefore they squeeze past you. If you move out a bit, they have to wait until the oncoming lane is clear of traffic before pulling out to overtake you. I’m not talking about cycling in the middle of the lane, just 2-3 feet out from the kerb. Try it, it really makes a difference.
Pric ks in lycra is a good discription
WONDERFUL…AND SO TRUE
They are good, but I prefer this one…
https://www.comedycard.co.uk/products/funny-cycling-card-bought-the-bike-and-ive-bought-all-the-kit
@G.W.: what?
Well it’s no surprise that the comments here are filled with rubbish and whataboutery from both sides of the great divide. It’s safe to say nothing will be solved on this comment section.
Try watching them from the Howth library 80 kph, no regard for pedestrians, traffic lights or safety for themselves or others.
@Giles Kennedy: I’ve witnessed one of them do 100kph up that road!
Left a cloud of Diesel fumes behind that big Range Rover and all!
@Giles Kennedy: And yet, we’re not hearing reports of multiple deaths or injuries for or by cyclists every weekend. While motorists kill 4 people each week on our roads – where is the real danger?
Funny and true well done whoever doing it, keep it up.
I live in howth, cyclist are complete psycho coming through the village very little respect for other users of the road and other areas, well done to the poster boy who every put them up , there speaking the truth and yet some are so funny.
Ouch! That’s nasty! @Karl Bauer:
Was George Hook seen in the area recently?
They’re not elephants, it’s Aido and Grace coming back from Gorey
@John Smith: …said the snowflake one day
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In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
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