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Updated 1.20pm
AN IRISH MAN has been denied a Public Services Card (PSC) because he’s adopted and his birth certificate isn’t considered sufficient proof of identity.
TheJournal.ie has learned that the PSC expansion process is being used by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) to confirm and update its own birth/adoption database with data from the General Register Office, responsibility for which was recently transferred to DEASP from the Department of Health.
In early July, the man attended a scheduled appointment at an Intreo centre to register for the controversial card.
While there, he was informed by a DEASP official that he couldn’t be found on the State’s birth register, despite presenting with his short-form birth certificate.
He asked to speak in a private meeting room given the personal nature of the information he was about to impart – and informed the officer that he is adopted.
“They told me that as I don’t have my long-form birth certificate (which is denied to adopted persons) I need an adoption certificate and that I would have to apply for one,” he told TheJournal.ie.
“The whole thing was completely unprofessional, I wrote into them after and asked what would have happened if I hadn’t known I was adopted. There are certainly people in Ireland who don’t know.”
The man informed the DEASP officials that he was unwilling to apply for an adoption certificate due to the personal and sensitive nature of the process (his own children are unaware that he was an adopted child).
Under existing legislation, an adopted adult does not have automatic access to their original, long-form birth certificate, the reason for this being that it contains information about the birth mother who has a right to confidentiality.
Responding to queries from TheJournal.ie about how this case would have been handled if the applicant did not know they were adopted, the DEASP said that its staff would not be aware of somebody’s adoption status.
A spokesperson explained that if somebody’s birth registration details cannot be located, they are asked to contact the General Register Office. It would be at this point that somebody’s adopted status would be revealed.
‘I don’t want to be battling over this’
“They asked me to apply for a card in the first place, I took time off work to do it because I thought I was doing my civic duty,” he said. “And if we have to get it I want to get it now, not in six months. I don’t want to be battling over pension payments and the like when I’m 80.
I don’t want to get an adoption cert, it’s as simple as that. They have my birth cert, that’s sufficient for everything else, why not this? I’m married, I have a passport and a driving licence. Why do I need this cert?
And why have I had to tell more people in the last few months that I’m adopted than I had to do in my entire life up to this point? I’m a private person, I pay my bills, this is a personal decision that they shouldn’t be allowed force on someone.
Over the following nine weeks, the man pressed his case (and lodged an official complaint regarding how he was treated) with DEASP.
In a thread of email correspondence seen by TheJournal.ie, the man requests, given the personal and sensitive nature of the issue, to be given access to internal correspondence concerning his case and the direct contact details of those dealing with it, so as “to avoid having to further tell the world and its wife about my situation”.
He is informed in response that he will have to apply for such data under Freedom of Information – a process that takes a month minimum.
Click here to view a larger image
When the man queried this statement, the DEASP official dealing with his complaint doubled down and insisted that the information he requested could only be granted via Freedom of Information, and likewise that his Public Services Card application can only be completed by him obtaining an adoption certificate:
“Once again it is regretted that your experience while applying for a Public Services Card appears to have caused stress and upset,” a reply dated late July reads.
We cannot process your PSC application without your adoption certificate. Once you have your adoption certificate please contact me… to arrange the completion of your Public Services Card application.
The ensuing thread of communication suggests that, within the local Intreo office in question, there is a deal of confusion as to what officer should take responsibility for the issue, and as to whether or not the problem could even be rectified at local office level.
The need for an adoption certificate is outlined on the requirements section on the Public Services Card section of the State’s Citizens Information website. The reason as to why an adoption cert is necessary is not made clear however – for all other citizens a passport or driving licence is considered sufficient, let alone a citizen’s short-form birth certificate.
DEASP explains that the adoption certificate is required to verify identity “to a high level of assurance” but that somebody’s adoption status is “not a piece of data held on the PSC or related Public Service Identity dataset”.
Three weeks later in mid-August the man received a letter from the same DEASP official stating that his complaint had been closed due to it being dealt with “in the allotted timeframe”, which he dismissed in his own reply as “an absolute misrepresentation of the clear facts”.
He notes that “if I didn’t know I was adopted this process is forcing me very insensitively to recognise this”.
“How would my case be handled if I didn’t know I was adopted?”
“May I also note from your own letter inviting me to apply for this card that under forms of ID items deemed ‘not acceptable’ the short version of the birth cert is not listed as one of these items. This I have provided to your office and this LEGAL document has been accepted for any other applications I have ever had to make and it is not clear why this LEGAL document isn’t acceptable for this process.”
‘Second class citizen’
This process is now making me feel like a second-class citizen as I have provided everything anyone else is required to provide, but because I’m adopted, I’m been treated unequally in this shambolic process.
Click here to view a larger image
The man has since escalated his complaint to the State Ombudsman. That case remains outstanding.
DEASP’s initial response to the man’s complaint, delivered 16 days after his initial appointment, stated that the need for an adoption certificate has resulted from the General Register Office (GRO) of births, adoptions, and deaths being transferred to DEASP from the Department of Health.
“It is through the Public Services Card process that the Department is confirming and updating the birth/adoption information held on our IT systems with the record from GRO,” that response reads.
The response adds that PSC officials have access to birth records at their stations, but not adoption records, hence the need for an adoption certificate.
A short-form birth certificate does not prove the holder is adopted so the adoption certificate is required.
The legal basis for this particular process is not outlined, which is something of a persistent criticism of all aspects of the PSC’s current expansion. A query to the Data Protection Commissioner on the matter was referred back to Social Protection.
“Information is shared between DEASP and the GRO on the basis that the GRO is a specified body under Schedule 5 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (as amended).”
GRO also operates under the aegis of this department. GRO transferred to DEASP from the Department of Health on 1 January 2008.
A spokesperson added that the information required to verify the Public Service Identity Dataset includes date of birth, place of birth and mother’s birth surname – information generally taken from the birth cert, birth registration details or adoption cert. If a person doesn’t have access to their long-form birth cert, they will need to contact the GRO or acquire an adoption cert to be able to complete the PSC process.
“The reason I am not going to let this go is I would not like to think of someone else having to endure this process or that their life could be turned upside down if they didn’t know they were adopted,” the man now says of his ongoing case.
I’ve done everything in my power to get it over the line, but every time I contacted them I felt like I was being stonewalled.
“Department staff endeavour to always deal with all customers in a professional and courteous manner,” a DEASP spokesperson told TheJournal.ie when asked for comment on the man’s case.
“The Department is disappointed to hear of any customers who are unhappy with our service and aims to provide a… registration process that is clear, efficient and
straightforward for customers. We also wish to provide our customers with a complaints procedure that is accessible, efficient, effective and fair.”
When asked as to why there is such a lack of flexibility with regard to adopted people and the PSC registration process, the spokesperson insists that “adopted people are treated in the same way as other individuals in terms of verification of identity”.
“Date of birth, place of birth and mother’s birth surname are generally verified from the birth certificate or, in the case of an adopted person, from an adoption certificate.”
However, non-adopted people can get through the registration process for a PSC using just a driving licence or passport.
As regards how people are being targeted for invitations to obtain a PSC (as is currently the case across the country), the department says that the process is limited to those “who have had claims under social welfare schemes”, and also to those “who have had a driving licence issued recently”.
This article was updated with further responses from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection.
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good on him, quotas are bad for women as they will all be under the cloud of being tokens, also unjust for men, I have to assume helicoptered in women aren’t the best candidate for the job, I don’t want to be voting for tokens.
@Dave Dublin: If all things were equal, I’d agree with you. And that’s the problem. Some people dont think we are all equal. Ever. Old mens clubs etc.
@Brendan Cooney: Laws should not be written based on what “some people” think or don’t think. If they were, you could be arrested for walking under a ladder.
@Joe Phillips: ????
Laws are ONLY written by what “some people” think.
Those people are the Legislature.
This is a key part of the Irish Constitution.
Best of luck. I hope you succeed in ensuring these opportunities in Ireland are not given based on someone’s group identity.
@sVRCsaSg: Agreed, a ridiculous law designed to appeal to approximately half the populace. While I sincerely hope this case is successful, I somehow can’t see it being so.
Delighted
Good luck Mohan. I am not someone who usually roots for an FF man, but this law does need to be tested.
@Richard Barrett: this is not a party political issue .. it’s a discrimination issue based on your gender
Good
Well done that man….best of luck to him…
Deloghted
Brian if this fails please just identify as a woman and encourage your colleagues to do the same.
If he was up for assault his FF connection would have been buried at the bottom of the article.
Best person for the job regardless of gender…. any attempt to introduce gender quotas automatically discriminate and make for an unequal society.
I do accept that there may be more of one gender than another gender in certain employments but this is due in part to choice and in part to stereotyping – gender quotes do not tackle these issues. Once one has equality of opportunity gender quotas are not the solution, one must tackle the root cause.
Why is this person so threatened by equality? History is littered with those who tried to hold back the tide of progress.
Women have the vote
Women have rights over own bodies
Soon they will have the right to represent us free of the hangover and constraints of expectation due to centuries of discrimination.
@thephantomshit: he’s not threatened by equality of opportunity, just equality of outcome. All the other examples you gave are equality of opportunity, the one being dealt with here is equality of outcome. They are two very different things and it’s wrong to conflate the two.
@thephantomshit: there is a difference between equality and meeting a quota. People should run because they are capable, not to meet a target. Equality can never be reached if women remain to be treated differently.
@thephantomshit: they already have the right to represent us. I’m not sure where yuo get the idea that they don’t.
@thephantomshit: he wasn’t being treated equally, that’s the point.
@Richard: He could run as an Independent and align with FF in the Dail. No Quota issue if he does that. The quota is set for a Party Affiliation to ensure a more gender equity within its representation. He can run as an Independent and have no issue.
@Hardly Normal: But he is. Men and women to fulfill 50% of the positions. 50/50. Equal.
@Ailbhe: How is being told you can’t run for election because we have to let a woman run instead equal?.
@Ailbhe: no he as an individual was not being treated equally to the woman they went with. Even if you agree in placing someone’s group identity above their individual identity in this case it is not equality of opportunity but an attempt to force equality of outcome.
@Ailbhe: how is it equal? Being told you can’t do that because you’re not a woman. On paper it might be equal 50/50 but realistically it’s not because he’s being denied the opportunity.
@Ailbhe: Why does a man looking for equality threaten you? And why do you insist on special treatment?
@Ailbhe: Do you call for that same equality in all positions that are mostly filled by men or just cherry picking the nice ones that you want to do? Equality should mean exactly that. Equality in all aspects of life not just in boardrooms and the Dail.
@Roy Dowling: Because women will be told the same if they reach 50% representation.
It’s basic maths folks. Given the amount of eejits on the journal that claim feminism is about taking over the world etc etc, holding us to a MAXIMUM 50% representation should be a welcomed move. You all seem so scared of women.
@Battaz: I welcome it. In fact I’ve campaigned for equality for men. Be it in the workplace, parental rights, or representation. Bring it on I say!
@Darren McCormack: Hi Darren, thanks for assuming I don’t call for equality in all positions. I do. I think it would be great to see equal numbers in all sectors. Areas particularly lacking are teaching, carers, the majority of HCP professions and even law is shifting to be majority women qualifying. I think these should be equal or as close as practicable.
Diversity of ideas, experience and representation benefit us all.
@Ailbhe: I asked you a question. I assumed nothing.
@Ailbhe: are you looking for equality of outcome (50:50 representation everywhere) or equality of opportunity? Because you can’t have both and if you give people equality of opportunity and become more egalitarian as a society the differences between the choices of men and women increase not decrease.
And how should we mandate for diversity of ideas? Would you be in favour of quotas for conservative viewpoints in the workplace and on boards?
@Ailbhe: You seem to think that people are afraid of women being equal. I don’t think they are. I think people are afraid of forced quotas which deny men from entering a career because they’ve met their quota based on your gender. I couldn’t give a rats ass if we have a male or female Taoiseach, doctor or nurse. I want the best person for the job.
@sVRCsaSg: I agree. I seen this report recently. In nordic countries that are seen to be more egalitarian, women and men are diverging more and more into “traditional” gender career paths.
@Ailbhe: Wrong. Doesn’t matter if women are told the same if they reach 50%. You claim your want equality, but your happy to use inequality to achieve it. That ain’t fair. Out of curiosity shall we put gender quotas on building sites, no men can be hired until women are 50% of the work force?. or how about child care, no women can be hired until 50% of the work force are men?
@sVRCsaSg: It’s not equality of opportunity though now is it? Society is more likely to vote for men, and not because they are more qualified. So it’s far from an equal opportunity. If candidates were voted for on merit, not based on assumptions and societal biases, it would all be fair. but it’s not. So either change the system, or ensure the system is equal.
@Darren McCormack: You’re not currently getting the best person for the job.
@Roy Dowling: Sounds like a plan!
@Ailbhe: half our society are women. By your own logic women voters are holding back women in politics by voting for men on merit instead voting for the best candidate.
@Roy Dowling: Yes….you’re getting it now.
@Ailbhe: Don’t see you or any other woman protesting outside a building site or creche looking for quotas though so we?.
Instead we see mothers getting together and forcing creche owners to sack male employees.
@Ailbhe: so then gender quotas arnt needed, whats needed is to educate voters on picking the right person.
@Ailbhe: Lot’s of men on here taking issue with gender quotas.
Is it because a) you don’t think there should be equal representation for women in the one role that shapes society’s legislature and how the country is run. If so, why?
or
b) you think there is a better way to achieve this (decades of faux equal opportunity have not yet achieved this). If so, how?
@Roy Dowling: It would take a HUGE societal shift in biases, predermination and prejudices to achieve that. Several decades of people trying to achieve this and we still live in a world where women are paid less and denied opportunities for promotion. So, if that’s not working, we need a catalyst. What else would you suggest?
@Ailbhe: I’m against gender quotas because it benefits woman in certain areas. if you want to introduce gender quotas it should be country wide and across all occupations eg. Politics, finance, health, construction, child care.
either every occupation be forced be 50/50 workforce or none of them.
@Ailbhe: because it’s a load of shit basically. I don’t care if there’s more female lawyer’s than men, or if there’s more male plumbers than women. These lads are voted in democratically and you just can’t go around saying there’s not enough female politicians, we’ll stop a man campaigning in this constituency to balance it country wide or vice versa.
@Hardly Normal: This is the only role that allows employees to change our laws and run our country. Plumbers etc just don’t equate.
@Roy Dowling: So is that a), you don’t think women should be equally able to legislate and govern?
@Ailbhe: no that’s not it at all. I think women can do those things aswell was any man. I also think women can wire an office aswell as any man( I should know as I was an apprentice to female sparks for a few months) yet you don’t see women demanding quotas in hiring electricians. Again if women want quotas for politics they have to accept half the workforce on a building site should be women , half the workers in creches should be men. If they really want quality then accept equality everywhere.
@Ailbhe: Where’s the proof that women are paid less for the same job? It’s well proven that men put in more hours and take less holidays than their female colleagues. Show me documented proof that takes account for this. There is nothing stopping a woman from being whatever she wants to be. Nothing stops any woman from running as a TD. So why aren’t they doing it?
@Roy Dowling: Electricians are not public representatives. False equivelancy.
@Darren McCormack: Google is your friend mate.
@Ailbhe: Is that your response to me looking for proof of a gender pay gap? Jaysus you’re hilarious. I guess I win that argument so. I’m done talking to you now. You’re boring me.
@Ailbhe: there’s a lot of different reasons people vote for certain candidates. From accents to hairstyle to height etc. You can’t justify forcefully pushing equality of outcome because sexism is out there in the ether.
Have you ever considered women aren’t putting themselves forward or engaging in politics as much as men because they’re not as interested in it? They’re not as interesting in becoming engineers or computer programmers so maybe it’s the case here too?
Women in general have been shown to care less about politics than men.
@Ailbhe: and before you say we need to break down the barriers or something what if the reserve is true (as is the case with traditionally gendered jobs) – that women are less likely to engage in politics the more egalitarian a society becomes? Can we then drop these sexist quotas?
@Ailbhe: bull sh|t it’s nothing to do with being public representatives. it’s because not many women want to do those kinds of jobs. I’d imagine you include. And as such you don’t care about equality there and are happy it’s a male dominant occupated. Simple fact it’s voters of this county are 50% male 50% female if you want more females in government get women to vote for the best candidate
@thephantomshit: this is not equality .. its gender preference.. best person should get any job on offer regardless of gender
@Ailbhe: you brought up different professions initially. You’re comments are foimtyou a disservice.
@Ailbhe: How come 99% of all construction site workers men? Also, how come the overwhelming majority of binmen men?
@Ailbhe: “Society is more likely to vote for men, and not because they are more qualified.” – Where is the evidence to suggest this? I couldn’t care less if a candidate is man or woman, black or white, young or old etc etc as long as they are competent and can perform the role they are running for.
@Ailbhe:
A) I have no issue with equal representation. The most important thing is that there is equal opportunity for both men and women. Nowadays, there is. I do have an issue with a slide towards soft totalitarianism that comes with the introduction of these quotas.
B) Yes, of course there are better ways. One of which is to encourage more woman to get into politics via campaigns. Look at what they are doing re woman in sport via the 20=20 campaign.
@Ailbhe:
Agree completely.
I was shocked and disgusted and repulsed all in equal hugely triggered measure this morning when my bins were being collected.. I was appalled to see a group, a boy’s club, of four pig men emptying out my bins full of dirty nappies and rotten food into the back of their truck, their chauvinist-mobile, then pull off down towards the city dump spewing their toxic masculinity all over the street on their way.
Then on my way to work I came across these horrible male brutes working for dynorod cleaning out the sewers, up to their elbows in human waste, laughing and joking uttering micro aggressions to each other.
Women need forced representation across the board I 100% agree with you.
Maybe someone like you would challenge these despicable bin men and I can look forward to seeing someone like you emptying my refuse or maybe even cleaning out my uncle’s septic tank in the short term future in the name of true beautiful equality.
You are a noble fighter for justice and I tip my hat to you.
@thephantomshit: meeting expectations is one of the great responsibilities of being a politician. What are talking about? Stop reading CNN and go watch some Jordan Peterson.
I’m delighted, I hope he wins his case. Gender quotas is just lunacy
Grossly incompetent gombeen FF and FG politicians getting into gov with no more experience than local county councillor experience and small local business experience have destroyed this country. Introducing gender quotas into groups thats already grossly incompetent and unfit for gov isn’t gonna improve anything.
Good luck to him. Gender quotas mean individuals are discriminated against. If that’s ok with folks then let me be the first to say that we need equal numbers of women to men in prison. By quota if necessary. Sort of like jury duty but in reverse.
The lad got 510 votes in the 2014 Locals, the only discrimination he suffered was the discriminating opinion of the Dublin Central electorate
@Shane ᚛ᚄᚕᚅ᚜: No, he was explicitly discriminated against based on his gender. I thought that was a no no?
Are there any other groups you feel should be discriminated against?
@Battaz: If he wanted to run he could have, more than once there’s been an Independent Fianna Fáiler out there in the wild.
My point is that Mohan was only ever an also ran, at best
But aside from that, you’re making a categorical error. FF is a private institution that is free to do as it chooses, its members decide what their internal rules are. The Corú gives the Constituencies committee immence powers to determine election and nomination strategies. If FF wanted they could choose not to accept state funding, and then nominate all male panels, if they chose. There’s conditionality all over the state funding that parties and independents receive. What they can spend it on, what services are legitimate expenses, whom they can employ, and what the terms of employment must be. Auditing conditions. Public declaration conditions. This is all in the primary legislation, and since 2012 gender conditionality is in it. But Mohan if he wanted to could have run, no one was stopping him running, only FF was stopping him running under the FF banner.
This has much more to do with the old Bertie/Fitzpatrick divide than anything else
Excellent decision .. best person regardless of gender should be put forward for all positions
Possibly a bigger concern should be that the high court made an error of judgement not once but twice. Waste of a lot of state funds there and by state i mean our funds
I expect nothing less from FF, they don’t like to see women in politics. Its a men’s club for them
@Barry Somers: You don’t think picking the best person for the job is a good idea? Not that we do it in the first place but that’s another matter.
@Barry Somers: With Theresa May and Angela Merkle doing their damnest to sink an entire continent, I’m afraid the beta male clarion call of more women in politics is a tune best kept to oneself.
@Barry Somers: that’s a load of crap … best person for all jobs regardless of gender
Nearly all the comments on this are from men. No more should be allowed until women are equally represented in comments.
@George Byron: this Is an equal gender issue .. everyone is welcome to comment ..
How ironic when i see on here some people calling the DUP dinosaurs and misogynists, and neither FF or FG, parties essentially under the control of conservative, rural, middle aged and older gombeen politicians and their supporters, and neither not having had a female party leader yet.
@Adrian: Which “female leaders” would you suggest? Theresa May and Angela Merkle will soon be jobseeking. Apparently a uterus is not a magic wand.
@Battaz: how many progressive modern female leaders would like to lead either FF or FG in their current state? Not many i would say, because gender quotas and FF in particular appear to be an issue that crops up regularly in the news, despite martins desperate efforts to appear at FF events surrounded by the half dozen females in the party.
@Adrian: look most people don’t support this nonsense. Hope he wins and that will put an end to this fascism.
This gender quota is absolute nonsense and condescending toward women. No one is stopping anyone from putting themselves forward regardless of gender. People should get voted in on their ability not on whether they’re male or female.
Good on him.
#metooo
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