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ONE OF THE top officials in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) faced a barrage of questions regarding the Public Services Card (PSC) at an Oireachtas committee this afternoon.
Tim Duggan, assistant secretary of the department’s Client Identity Services section, was giving evidence before the committee concerning his own department.
This followed a previous appearance made by representatives of Ireland’s data protection professions two weeks ago, in which serious concerns regarding the card were raised.
In his opening submission, Duggan said that much of the negative commentary concerning the PSC has been ‘misleading’ and ‘incorrect’ and repeatedly drew attention to the media reportage that has been directed at the project.
“There has been too much emphasis on the card,” he said. Repeating a mantra he would return to repeatedly during his appearance, Duggan said the card is “about making sure we’re dealing with the right people”.
The whole point is to identify someone, not on the balance of probabilities, but to a substantial level of assurance that they are who they say they are.
All the card is is proof that you’ve been through the SAFE process.
SAFE2, or Standard Authentication Framework Environment, is the government’s own in-house identification standard used to process PSC applications.
Legal basis
Regarding the legal basis for the card and its expansion to services other than its initial welfare remit (the latest of which is its requirement when applying for a driving licence or renewal), something repeatedly called into question, Duggan said the department is “fully satisfied that with these provisions there is a robust legal basis for the approach we have taken to identity verification”.
The legality or otherwise of the PSC project has been one of its most consistent criticisms, grouped with the suggestion that it is an attempt to create a national ID card ‘by stealth’.
Duggan said that his department is “acutely aware of GDPR (the EU’s coming General Data Protection Regulation, which goes live on 25 May)” and has a dedicated team “to ensure compliance” with it.
He did not have to answer any questions regarding the fact that the government’s current Data Protection Bill exempts the state from much of the fines/requirements of GDPR, however.
He said that the idea that the public services data contained on the PSC could end up in the hands of private sector concerns is preposterous. “I’d like to make it really clear that nothing could be further from the truth,” he said.
Duggan also made reference to the Data Protection Commissioner’s (DPC) investigation into the card, which was initiated late last year over concerns regarding the project’s transparency and its compliance or otherwise with the existing data protection legislation.
“The commissioner has now provided a plan to DEASP regarding that audit,” he said.
This is not the first time that the DPC has conducted such an audit. The department looks forward to her preliminary conclusions and looks forward to discussing them with her.
Questions and answers
The various members of the committee were not shy in asking Duggan (who actually appeared with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform’s Barry Lowry, but ended up dominating the session to a large extent) questions about the card, both on foot of the previous committee outing two weeks ago and with regard to media coverage of the data protection issues surrounding it.
Fianna Fáil’s Willie O’Dea wanted to know more about the DPC investigation into the card currently ongoing.
“What exactly is she investigating?” he asked.
If everything is as clear and above board as you say why is that investigation happening?
Sinn Féin’s John Brady said that as far as he is concerned the PSC is an attempt “to introduce a national ID card by stealth” and said he doesn’t believe that the “legal basis is in place”.
He wanted to know how many people have had welfare payments suspended because of a refusal to register for a card, citing the example of a woman in Donegal who had her state pension stopped for 18 months for that reason, and asked how much the card has cost to date.
Brady likewise wanted clarity as to why adopted people, 40% of whom in Ireland don’t realise their own status, are expected to bring an adoption cert with them to a PSC registration appointment, a fact that has been described as “discriminatory”.
Independent Senator Alice Mary Higgins wanted to discuss the fact that the new Data Protection Bill offers “huge exemptions from GDPR to ministers”. “If ministers disregard advice regarding our data infrastructures, well then we have to be very concerned about GDPR,” she said.
We’ve seen mandatory and compulsory, do we need another line now between voluntary and required.
The only non-adversarial statement by a committee member was by Fine Gael’s Joe Carey, TD for Clare, who declared his belief that the PSC “is a good initiative”.
“I have one myself,” he said. “I don’t believe the hysteria that has been going on about this particular issue. Have you received many complaints about them? (the answer to this question would appear to be yes)”
Not related
Regarding the investigation of the Data Protection Commissioner, Duggan noted that the resultant report has been “pushed back”. “The DPC is hoping to conclude the initial phase next month, and the second phase in May or June,” he said, adding that the delay “is due to normal pressure-of-business reasons”.
He clarified that, to date, 3.14 million PSCs have been issued to 2.65 million people (the disparity being attributable to reissues to those who turned 18 or 66 for the most part).
The total cost of the project to date is €59.7 million, he said.
He added that it is “very difficult to answer” how many people have had benefits suspended due to a refusal to register for a PSC as “it is a very fluid situation”. He said that about 4,000 free travel passes have been revoked due to a failure to register, but that “most of those people have never engaged with the department”.
Roughly 450 other cases have seen the suspension of a payment, he said, adding that in the department’s opinion “we think they’ve gone abroad”.
Duggan refused to acknowledge the possibility that the DPC’s investigation might have resulted from her requesting of his own department that it produce a guide to the card in order to answer the common questions regarding it. That investigation was announced at the end of October 2017, roughly one month after the production of the department’s Comprehensive Guide to SAFE Registration and the Public Services Card, itself a response to the DPC’s initial request.
“We haven’t heard that she had any issues with that guide,” he said. “But she initiated an investigation into the card after it was produced,” replied Higgins.
“But it doesn’t necessarily follow that’s the reason why,” Duggan replied in turn.
She hasn’t said if she has any difficulties with the guide we produced.
An ID card?
Regarding the idea that the PSC is a national ID card, he denied this.
“A national ID card is an entirely different idea,” he said. “People are generally compelled to carry (such a card).”
We don’t require people to get a card, we require them to satisfy the minister as to their identity.
On the adoption issue, Duggan said that “there are a lot of things that are required to be satisfied to fulfil SAFE2″.
A mother’s birth name is one of these. The same thing is required if you’re getting a passport (anecdotal evidence would suggest this is not the case – many Irish adopted people living without an adoption cert do have a passport).
Two other statements by the DEASP official may come in for scrutiny – he suggested that “it is not mandatory for a social welfare customer to present a PSC at their post office”, and also said, somewhat definitively, that “it is impossible to get a PSC without registering for one”, after Higgins had asked him about a situation which reportedly saw citizens being posted a card without applying for one.
“We would prefer if that was how a payment was processed,” he said regarding the former. “But when a body says you need a card for this, what they mean is that your ID needs to be verified to a substantial level of assurance”.
The latter, meanwhile, appears to contradict DEASP’s own annual report from 2012, which stated that 64,000 ‘low risk’ customers were issued with PSCs that year as a successor to their own free travel card via a ‘reduced registration process’.
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I wonder would mass immigration have anything to do with it, no probably not!
@Brian Hunt:
That’s crazy talk,wash your mouth out with soap!
@Kevin Byrne: Oh, look, the journal pulled a sneaky one and let the “bot” skip the queue. Who would have guessed?
@Brian Hunt: Hopefully the Journal or another News outlet will investigate the rise in Leprosy and Aids in Ireland, or maybe dancing with the stars is more important.
@Paul Gorry: Is everyone you don’t agree with a ‘bot’? How does that even work? Weird…
@Jonn: Silly comment, wake up!
@Brian Hunt: if you read the article, then you wouldn’t have to wonder, and would know that various factors are at play
@Paul Bannon: Also scurvy, TB and Bubonic Plague.
@Paul Bannon: The last case of leprosy in Ireland was in 2013 by a Brazilian.
@Kevin Byrne: you’d be first in line you being Russian an all..
@Brian Hunt: No, not at all. They still have one of the best patient to dr ratios in eu, cant blame immigration on everything despite some sectors love to do nothing else but….
@Kev Kerr: So nothing to do with mass immigration Kev, I know I can always rely on you for your wise counsel……not!
@Brian Hunt: obviously population increase is A factor, but one of many
@Brian Hunt: it is one of many factors. Many of those arriving have major medical needs, mental trauma, pre existing illnesses etc. All are given medical cards. As there is no medical assessments at point of arrival it is difficult to quantify. This coupled with the fact that many doctors who train in Ireland leave shortly after finishing their education, both Irish and international students.
Sure ALL OUR IRISH Educated Doctors and Nurses are forced to emigrate thanks to FF, FG, GGP, Liebour and rest of the Mafia in the Dail because none of them are credible to run the country anymore. We lack serious leadership in this country because all I see this place is going down the drain fast by blaming all the Irish people for a lot of the problems this country is facing but the politicians are never to blame because they’re immune from being blamed.
@Kevin Byrne: 1st troll on this article, Kevin. Congratulations..
@Kevin Byrne: great input there kev
@Kevin Byrne: Every day, all day. You’re the most boring c¥nt I witness all week. Sad little bl1t3h
@Tommy: and guess who will replace the country doctors ?
Indian doctors already acting as lords and masters in our hospitals.
@Dominic Leleu: but then, why can they do it and our Irish one can’t. I know a doctor that is going to retirement and can’t find replacement… why ?
Over 10% taken in in under 10yrs is alot, before you consider the housing crisis
Everything Conor McGregor said in the White House on Ireland and immigration is 100% true, regardless of your opinion of the man himself!
@Jonn: McGregor is very fond of the White in any house, but I get your point, john.
@Jonn: no it wasn’t true, and if you’re relying on someone like McGregor to be your messenger, then there is something seriously wrong with the message
@Kev Kerr: it is true you’re just stuck in your cave with your fake leaders here in Ireland we need a Voice somebody who actually stands out for the normal people of Ireland, as our politicians are just a bunch of liars and everybody knows that the country is going downhill drastically services, immigration money being squandered, and you’re actually backing up these people using our money you should be ashamed of yourself
@Jonn: I wouldn’t put any stock in anything said ahead of or between a pair of rap ists.
@Bren: just because I don’t agree with McGregor, and consider him to be a scu mbag, doesn’t mean that I am a government supporter. There are lots of other politicians who are not in power
@Kev Kerr: You’re an echo-chamber of the government!
Interesting that a journalist can say this today but many people have mentioned the country didnt have services to meet the demands due to the hugh growth in immigration over the last few years only to be branded far right.
@Kevin Byrne:
The trick is to identify as a non gender frying pan at the end of your comment. That confuses the lefties.
@Paul Keenan: hasn’t helped for sure but the reality is that the Irish have been useless for a long long time. IMO it’s pretty granular argument that glides effortlessly through the megaphone but really amounts to little, I know so many people who now travel abroad for healthcare, can’t get specific treatments etc. our government managers do this to maximise profits for the exchequer. We have nothing because of How horrible Irish people are to each other.
@Thesaltyurchin: its not a “granular argument” its simple supply and demand and there has been an explosion in demand for not just GPs but other services etc and the demand is purely driven by population growth
@Paul Keenan: Sorry but its driven by bad services, population growth is just more fuel to burn, at least all the bluster maybe makes us do something about the cr@p infrastructure.
@Paul Keenan: we’re training 200 GPs a year mate, even if all immigration stopped yesterday we’d still be having this problem. Saying the demand is driven “purely” by population growth is just misinformation and if I were you I’d read up more on an issue before forming such a strong opinion.
All them fffg voters don’t care. Neither does fffg. A match made in hell, methinks.
@Paul Gorry: HSE is payin nothing to the trainee nurses – is simply a modern day slavery that government allows.
No wonder nobody will ever want to become a nurse or a doctor in this backward county.
How can they keep getting away with it is unbelievable.
@Lei tatt: what is the going rate for college placements for other courses. Nurses used to get paid when they were training however the nurses union wanted the qualification to be college based rather than work based, can’t have it both ways.
The HSE bears full responsibility for this and until we abolish it completely, nothing will change. The primary reason for the GP shortage in Ireland is that the HSE’s contract terms and payment structures are unattractive, discouraging both new and existing doctors from working in general practice. The HSE sets artificial price caps on the amount of money that GPs can charge patients. This means many doctors simply can’t afford to stay in business or have no incentive to expand their practices. GPs are paid the same rate regardless of demand. Even as patient numbers rise, GPs can’t increase their fees to match the extra workload. In less populated areas, where patient numbers are lower, GPs can’t charge enough to make a living, so they either move to cities or leave the country entirely.
@William Jennings: fifteen years ago the only part of the Irish health system working was gps, enter into government the labour party and woke ideology and hey presto that’s broken too.
@Ger McCarthy: Yes, I couldn’t agree more. When Labour got into government with Fine Gael, they expanded the medical card scheme. This proved to be the final nail on the coffin of Irish healthcare as even GPs weren’t reliable or efficient. It sounded great on paper, more people could access subsidised healthcare. However, this move failed to address the underlying structural issue, the lack of GPs to serve an increasingly large patient base. This led to an increase in demand without any corresponding increase in supply. GPs found themselves overloaded with medical card patients, and because their fees were capped, they couldn’t increase their income to compensate for the increased workload. They believed in the delusional idea of “socialised” GP care, despite nothing in life being free.
@William Jennings:
Leftists are mor#ns, they build nothing and destroy everything, but the Irish only have themselves to blame,they keep voting for them!
@William Jennings: I agree with you. I was unlucky enough to end up in hospital last week. 3 days in a+e with a heart/blood issue. The poor doctors and nurses were brilliant. Flat out working the whole time. To say we’ve a third world system is an understatement. They should all be paid hundreds of thousands to put up with the conditions they’ve to work in. To say the treatment on patients is inhumane is an understatement. Thank you to all the staff.
@Tony Murphy: “To say we’ve a third world system is an understatement”. I think you need to travel more
@William Jennings: €70/ Gp visit and €30 for nurse to take bloods?
@William Jennings: No, we should not price people out of the ability to get healthcare and put market economics into people’s ability to live. That is cruel. While I’m sure there are a lot of structural problems with the HSE that lead to this, I am still doing the research on this topic, every single medical professional I’ve seen interviewed isn’t making a living because of the /housing crisis/ and wants to move away /because they’re overworked/.
@William Jennings: the demand on GPs is an inevitability of the fact that people are getting sick and are asking for help. If you price them out of it by allowing GPs to raise said prices, they’re not exactly going to stop getting sick – theylljust avoid the doctors until they end up in the emergency room or die. By preventing people from accessing this healthcare, You’re just pushing the problem from our overwhelmed GPs to our overwhelmed hospitals. Or pushing people into the cemetery. The demand will always be there. We need to address the issues with supply.
Population increases means their should be more GPs. The fact there are not means the government planned for this.
Government acts like we’re still in the 2000s.
Another ‘benefit’ of mass illegal invasion…
@Kieran Conroy: but who is to blame the government? Of course in my eyes they are asleep at the wheel as per usual, only in it for their own interests, as everybody knows but everybody is afraid to say it and speak the truth, time for changing in Ireland out with all these corrupt politicians.
@Kieran Conroy: the vast majority of the population increase is due to the economy, and the jobs created as a result. Nothing to do with an “illegal invasion”
@Kieran Conroy: the problems with health and housing already existed before “mass immigration” stop stirring up hate
@Mike B: Maybe these problems did already exist but they have been made much worse with the mass illegal invasion of mainly young men who should be handcuffed and deported TODAY. All of them. Every last one.
@Kev Kerr: Yea. Right…LOL
@Kieran Conroy: the information is freely available on line. All you need to do is search for it
@Kev Kerr: but what are they doing
@Chutes Idiot: you have been peddling this multi account trolling for far too long now – time to wake wakey and find something more productive to do with your time
@john o connor: what do you think they’re doing? They’re working, in all sorts of roles, in hospitality, healthcare, tech, the list goes on
And I hope people don’t find a surprising this country has been run so badly for so long, that it’s inevitable that this was going to happen. The politicians are living in the clouds and I’m glad Conor McGregor stood up yesterday and spoke some truth about it we need a voice here in art and somebody to express how the population feels rather than a bunch of clowns Acting on our behalf the so-called government a bunch of liars destroying Ireland, changes drastically needed and I hope the people of Ireland will stand up now for our rights
Labour party take a bow,
That’s because they allowing to many people into the country who are also going to GPs
Yet telling the world, Conor does not speak for us
Stop flooding the country with chances, who all get medical cards then.
@Gary Condren:
I go to the local pharmacy every month and pay €80 for various medications. This is the maximum payment under the drug payment scheme. Every time I go I’m surrounded by foreigners getting whatever they need. 3 Euro please… 4.50 please … I feel like a mug in my own country.
Another thing not exactly helping is GPs expanding their services into Aesthetics. People in need of medical care cant get an appt for a week because slots are booked up with Botox and Chemical peels.
@Brendan Whyte: i imagine it’s barely a fraction of the system, but it frustrates me massively that every time i have a cold or a sniffle, I have to make an in person appointment with my doctor in order to get a sick note for my job.
That is a noddle scratcher, what changed? Mmmmmm
GP’s are useless , they open the book to describe a medications , they are brainless to diagnose a cancer or MS, self immune disease, they are waste of time and money ,waiting list at consultants are months long , because of the GP slow minds
@sakk sa: stop visiting your local witch doctor.
@Kieran Menon: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/apr/13/nhs.cancer1
@sakk sa: the GPs aren’t like that because of some uncontrolled stupidity, the GPs are like that because they’re overwhelmed and because the system overwhelms them further.
All the immigration stuff aside + the fact we only train 200/250 GP’s max a year(the same amount retire or take that time off sick every year) there are very few GP’s who work 70 hours a week anymore (why should they). Very few single handed practices are left where they do work those hours which would actually be the equivalent of 2/2.5 GP’s these days. As many female GP’s are joining as male GP’s and female GPs usually marry upward socially (I.e. other doctors) and therefore don’t need to work the income or the hours that a single doctor household would. (This is a generalisation but in population cross sections even if this was true 30 percent of the time, which it is, all the lack of hours working means less patients seen). The scary truth is we are in a MASSIVE crisis….getting worse
@N.F. Court: great comment. Add to this the increase in demand, from more people with medical cards, immigration, people having more disposable income to pay, older population etc and we have arrived at the current situation. Demand is only going to increase so more training places are needed to meet it.
You can’t even get a GP in an urban centre as none are taking on new patients
We need to address the root cause issue and that is it needs to be made easier to get into medicine in Ireland, there needs to be more financial help for students in order to study and make this a career.
It’s nothing to do with immigration or any other crazy conspiracy theories. It’s to do with the fact that it’s extremely hard to get into medicine and some people would rather prefer to be a YouTuber instead.
We need to increase the GP training places much more. The primary medical degree takes 6 years of hard work and study followed by 4 years GP training, balancing work and exams. Unless we improve the working conditions for doctors we will lose valuable staff , one of the best in the world.
Do I (a) read and attempt to comprehend this article or (b) jump to the comment section and say something about ‘mass immigration’ and ‘open borders’?
@Jack Hayes: do both, influx of people is mentioned though… And not for the green green grass I’m afraid….
My GP showed me his patient number. Between him and his wife, they have 33,000 patients to provide care to. We absolutely need initiatives to entice GPs to come to Ireland, whether Irish graduates or not!
Good luck if looking for a GP outside Dublin, midlands just impossible.
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