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ON NOVEMBER 11 each year, many countries around the world honour living and deceased veterans of their armed forces. The day has different names in different countries: Remembrance Day, Veterans Day, Jour d’Armistice to name but a few. Of course, the poppy flower is synonymous with Britain around this time of year. You can’t watch live UK television without noticing that the presenter is wearing one.
Ireland has a couple of its own remembrance ceremonies such as last week’s eloquent service in honour of Irish UN peacekeepers who lost their lives whilst on duty oversees. But during the month of November, it’s very rare to see someone wear a poppy in the Republic. The Irish branch of the Royal British Legion even holds its annual commemorative ceremony in July. Despite joint wreath-laying ceremonies by our President and the British Queen in Belgium in 1998 and in Ireland earlier this year, wearing the poppy still draws resentment from some people in the Republic.
That red and black flower is a potent little symbol. For some people, wearing the poppy might suggest that you are paying homage to the same military force that patrolled the streets of Northern Ireland for decades. But the flower, which saturates large parts of the Belgian and French landscape where so much blood was spilt almost a century ago, was never intended to be a jingoistic symbol that honoured the British Crown. Rather, wearing the poppy was simply intended as a respectful act of honouring the fallen.
In total, over 200,000 Irishmen, from nationalist and unionist traditions, served in the British army during the First World War of which approximately 49,400 were killed in action. During the Second World War, when the fate of Europe hung in the balance, an estimated 50,000 Irish men and women from the Irish Free State enlisted again in the ranks of the British armed forces and played a vital role in defeating Nazism. Losses were large once more; 7,000 Irish born personnel died in that war. So if you dig deep enough in the roots of your family tree, you may well find that you are related to one of those veterans.
To wear that little flower symbolised that you were a traitor
If wearing the poppy in the Republic was given the hard shoulder during our nascent years of independence, it was given the death knell when the Troubles erupted in the late 1960s. To wear that little flower symbolised that you were a traitor and not a real Irish patriot. Our new national narrative in post-independent Ireland left little room for those Irish men and women who had worn British uniforms during the two world wars. A true partisan would wear the Easter lily.
When I think about the poppy or Remembrance Day, it’s not just images of the fields of Flanders that spring immediately to my mind. I think instead of those shaky video images, filmed shortly after an IRA bomb had detonated at a Remembrance Day ceremony in Enniskillen in 1987. The images, like war itself, are horrific: old age pensioners being helped from the rubble, dead bodies covered by jackets.
The ‘Poppy Day’ bombing was a callous act that killed and maimed people who had simply gathered to pay their respects to the dead. In the minds of some republicans, politics and the poppy were indistinguishable.
But times change thankfully. Queen Elizabeth’s visit to the Republic in May of this year marked a turning point in our relations with Britain, the way we view our State and in particular, the way in which we view our military past. The laying of wreaths by our President and the British Queen at both the Garden of Remembrance and at the Irish National War Memorial Gardens showed that it is possible for us to honour Ireland’s two military histories equally. So, it might now be time for those that want to don the poppy, to do so without the fear of being heckled.
Earlier this year I found out that my own family had a link with the Great War
I’ve always been interested in the history of the two world wars but it was only earlier this year that I found out that my own family had a link with the Great War. My father had mentioned in passing that his maternal grandfather, a man called Edward Dwyer, had enlisted in the British army during the 1910s. However, my father was unsure if Edward had served at the front during wartime.
I found Edward’s 1911 Irish census details on-line. He was a twenty-eight year old labourer, was married with three children and lived in a tenement flat in Green Street in Dublin’s north inner city. From there, I made another simple online search of the UK National Archive War Records. Yes, Edward Dwyer had joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and had served in France with his battalion. Maybe he joined to secure Home Rule or maybe it was just to feed his family.
The basic UK war service records do not provide much information but I’m keen to find out more. All I know is that Edward was in Flanders with ‘the Dubs’ in April 1915 around the time of the Second Battle of Ypres, a battle which cost the lives of hundreds of Dubliners. Edward was one of the lucky ones. He survived the war and returned to work in Dublin, passing away in 1962. According to my father, Edward never wore a poppy.
Like many Irish families, we know the intricate details of our Republican roots but very little about our ‘other’ military history. Growing up I always knew that my great-uncle John Nolan had been in the Irish Citizen Army, had fought during Easter Week 1916 and went on to fight in the War of Independence and the Civil War. Yet, I respect Edward’s role in the Great War just as much as I respect John’s role in gaining Irish independence. Both stories are part of our greater history and it would be folly to ignore one of these narratives.
Napoleon, no stranger to a few military campaigns himself, once said that, “History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon”. I think we, in Ireland, have come to terms with, and agreed upon Irish men and women’s roles in the two world wars.
The poppy however is just a symbol that allows people to remember their family members and if that gives them a bit of comfort and solace then we should accept that. Let’s try not to confuse it with nationalism.
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Things were just too quiet today? Nothing serious enough to whip us into a frenzy?
No, I’m not ready to wear a poppy and I know I never will. When it’s possible to wear a lily at Easter time without being perceived as being a terrorist I might think about it then but my answer would still be no.
The English wear their poppy like a patriotic British statement and if someone on telly doesn’t wear it they risk being named and shamed in one of their tabloids.
Too British. I’m Irish. No thanks. Never.
I would prefer a symbol for all irish soldiers killed.. UN, WWI and others, with money donated to all families of irish soldiers killed/wounded (including those in WWI)
fiachra’s answer should close the debate
Its such a simple alternative, why hasnt it already been done?
There is, it’s the Easter Lily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Lily_(badge) But careful now, it’s not hip to be a republican anymore.
no it’s a british symbol and even in the uk it’s become more and more tarnished by it’s association with dirty wars like iraq, afghanistan and libya
I don’t think it symbolises war so much as the bravery of the men and women who died in those wars . Soldiers do not have a choice of battles they wage. A soldier follows orders , and as such it is these people we honour , not the deed .
Do not overlook the Crown’s squalid conquest of China through the Poppy (Opium) Wars. This poppy threat-fest goes on and on.and is not just celebrated at 11:11 on the 11th of the 11th. (wink wink). It is a travesty that this symbol of war, conquest and oppression is tolerated in what is supposed to be an inclusive Europe.
In a word NO
I’ll never wear a poppy as long as I live……after all, it’s unsuitable to the people of Ireland .
Quite a large number of the people of Ireland died at the Somme you know. They may have been from a tradition you don’t share but at least have the generosity of spirit to accept that Irishness is not the preserve of catholic nationalists.
a well written article Liam. unfortunately u have ur work cut out for u even trying to convince many irish people that the poppy is not a british armed forces commemorative symbol only. i’ve worn one often as greatgranddad fought in ww1 but very often took flak from many ‘patriot types’. 8-P
By “patriot types” do you mean the people who refuse to honour the murderers of Irishmen and women of 1916 or the civil rights marchers on Bloody sunday?
Do you really not know that the poppy is the symbol of the British Army or are you pretending to be stupid? The “Royal British Legion” sells the poppy to raise funds for ex-British soldiers, not the poor mis-guided canon fodder of the 1914-1916 war as they are all dead, rather the money is spent housing the British Heroes that gunned down innocent Irish civilian marchers in Derry on Bloody Sunday. These British soldiers are now in the retirement homes funded by the poppies sold in Britain and sadly in Ireland. To fool yourself that the poppy is an innocent symbol of remembrance, ask the victims of the British soldiers in Basra and Helmand if they could wear it? Cop on, get off your knees and think of Patrick Pearse being shot dead in the chair by those self same Heroes of the British Army. Hide your heads with shame poppy wearers
Think you’ll find the war was 14-18. Get your facts right if you’re going to have an ignorant rant.
What about all the innocent dead civilians? How do we remember and honour them?
It is an insult to all the innocent people murdered by British forces in the north of Ireland.
And the east, south and west.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m absolutely disgusted at the support shown by many here for wearing a poppy.
The Irish members of the British army were canon fodder. They were duped into fighting for the crown. Given the hope that their people would be rewarded with freedom and independence. The poppy is a symbol of the might of the British army and little to do with the Paddies who perished in wars. Many of the solders who fought in the first world war were the same soldiers who oppressed the Irish on the streets of Ireland. I’ll wear a poppy when Elizabeth R wears an Easter lily.
I am soooooo flipping sick of hearing about the poppies! It’s personal choice. wear it or not! It’s a big marketing campaign in its own right
I wish we would put more effort into the present and future rather than dwelling on the past
Will I fuck ever wear a poppy!
I will never wear the red poppy as it is a British symbol and reminds me of war and the slaughter of innocents….I do wear the Eeaster Lily at Easter time as it symbolises our own fight for freedom from foreign rule and aggression. …..
I was in England last weekend and interestingly I spoke to some Citizens on this particular subject.
I discovered in my three days that less then 50% seemed to wear the Poppy Badge and having inquired in discussion discovered that many feel that it glorifies War and violence , rather then strictly honouring the dead of the Wars concerned.
Other opinions were concerned that the monies raised were under the control of The British Legion , an Organisation that was seen to support the invasions in both Iraq and Afghanistan .
This was a major reason for people not to lend support to wearing one .
Eddie Barrett. In a word Bulls***. The wearing of the poppy is now and always was about respect. respect for the men and women who died while serving in the armed forces. The British Legion by the way is a very respected organization so I dont know who you were talking to. The mind boggles!!!
actually it is NOT bull. the poppy honours all british war efforts, not just the world wars. last year I visited the website and they were promoting special focus on the war in afghanistan! why the hell anyone would support that I dont know. if we are to honour irish people who fought for britain then please, find another symbol and if there are proceeds, let it go to irish causes.
Interesting. I never wore a poppy when I lived in England, for the very reasons expressed by the reasonable voices here. If it were to be adopted in Ireland, it would have a significance that is Irish, not English. It is both a symbol of remembrance and of imperial jingoism. But many in England wear it to remember, not in solidarity with the views of the British Legion, but to support its work helping war veterans. Since the presidential inauguration is on 11/11/11, and the term ends in 2018, I’d like to see Michael D wear one tomorrow…
The white flower I might wear but Liam get a life. We have our own flower of Ireland ..the lily. Do you really think a british leader will come to Ireland and wear the lily for all who died in the famine/holocaust, the 1916 rising or all who died during the troubles. I really do not think so.
Barbara, I have many friends in Britain and none wear the poppy, they claim it is now only the elite and royalty who wear it. Ireland can remember its dead in all wars with out the help of the poppy.
@Eileen. Who is this Liam who has no life? I wish to remember him. To be glib/honest, I don’t think the vast majority of English people, including those of Irish descent, have the slightest notion what flower is worn in Ireland. Though many may by now have heard of the famine. The troubles were hard to miss really. Guildford, Birmingham, Warrington, Brighton, Canary Warf, the re-design of the Arndale Centre in Manchester, etc.
But seriously, are we really still stuck in this childish “we will when you do, ner ner ner ner ner? I don’t think so…
Michael Cuthbert, Liam is the author. of the above story line, the troubles….well to name only a few.
@Eileen. Seems Liam has a life after all. And, unlike tens of thousands, his great grandfather had one that lasted beyond 1918…
It’s my habit on Remembrance Day to give small donation @MSF_uk – brave medics mopping up after wars http://t.co/EMhFrq4Y. Sarah Pettegree @Brays_Cottage North Norfolk, UK
All monies raised through the sale of poppies in Ireland remain in Ireland and go to the families of Irish war dead and wounded, including any Irish men and women killed or injured in more recent wars such as Afghanistan.
The poppy does NOT honour “war efforts”. It raises awareness of those who have been killed or injured by war. It also raises funds for those who still suffer from the effects of war and their families. The British Legion does NOT support or honour war. It asks fund raisers and those campaigning for awareness to focus on those who have been killed or injured in the war in Afghanistan. It doesn’t ask you to support the war. I recommend you get your facts right or keep your ignorance to yourself.
I will wear a poppy with pride and I’m from Dublin. So many humans died to defend us from nazi rule and its my choice. I’m not concerned what others think.. It’s freedom of expression.
Not too many Nazis in WWI
No! The Poppy honours British Army Atrocities !
Wear the Lily with pride.
I think Ireland has it’s symbol in the shamrock and if it wants to wear something to commemorate those killed in wars maybe an olive leaf or something that denotes peace would be suitable since Ireland has a history of peacekeeping.
I understand what the Poppy symbolises. I respect what it means to British people after visiting the gardens at Westminster Abbey and seeing the memorials people left on 11/11. I fervently believe we should remember all people who fought in wars. And yet as an Irish Protestant, I cannot enter a church on Remembrance Sunday. It feels wrong. I cannot get past the memory of being a child and coming home, proudly sporting a Poppy, and having my placid, apolitical father rip it from my coat. I think we need to find our own way to remember our dead – the Poppy is British. It is not ours.
We do need something but I wish we could just get over ourselves and wear the damned poppy! I think Gaybo tried the white poppy idea some time ago and even that was too ‘poppy’ shaped. I understand the anger people feel towards the idea of having a British symbol remembering our heroes….but, and I HATE to say this…maybe we should all scrap Sky Sports and Premier League Soccer, stop watching X Factor, Coronation St, Eastenders and Downton Abbey. We’re ever so happy to refer to ourselves as a ‘cosmopolitan’ and ‘mukti-cultural’ society, but this poppy business reminds me of that great scene from Blazing Saddles….
“You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know… morons. “
well said and let the Irish stay out of England. this is why we cant move on .and never will.
No, it’s a British and Commonwealth thing, not really part of our tradition.
NEVER THE POPPY. Let’s get our own.
Are all the lights still on in the British embassy? How come so many want us wearing the poppy? Wear it then. Come out of your closets!
If the British wanted to honour their dead they’d stop sending them to their deaths. Cop on.
Very interesting read no doubt the thumbs will also boot this down, I bought poppy last yr not for Britain not for legion not for any affiliation only for my great uncle who was shot down and killed in Germany during WW2. I will buy it again this yr as well for him as a small token of his and thousands of Irishmen and women, that gave their lives not for a king not for Britain but for freedom, instead of spitting on their sacrifices.
Joey. I would never spit on your great uncle’s grave and I’m sure I speak for most of people here who would be horrified at the thought of wearing a poppy. For me it is a British symbol and not an Irish one.
I just think the best honour the British could give their dead soldiers is to stop sending them to wars to die.
Yes ”wearing the poppy was simply intended as a respectful act of honouring the fallen.
In total, over 200,000 Irishmen, from nationalist and unionist traditions, served in the British army during the First World War of which approximately 49,400 were killed in action. During the Second World War, when the fate of Europe hung in the balance, an estimated 50,000 Irish men and women from the Irish Free State enlisted again in the ranks of the British armed forces and played a vital role in defeating Nazism. Losses were large once more; 7,000 Irish born personnel died in that war. So if you dig deep enough in the roots of your family tree, you may well find that you are related to one of those veterans.” My grand uncle died at the Somme. In his memory I would wear it and for ALL soldiers who have died for my freedom.
This is a flower. It is used as a symbol for good reason. To remember those who died in WW1. Very simple. Dead soldiers are dead soldiers no matter which race, tradition, religion or country they come from. I would prefer if we had an international symbol to commemorate this wasteful loss of life, rather then bickering over whose dead soldiers are more important.
It is to commemorate the dead of all British wars.. Very interesting arguments here, making a great read.
Well put Patrick. And thanks for the gardening advice…
Patrick it is not to remember those who died in WW1. It remembers British soldiers that died in WW1 and British soldiers who died in all other wars since including here in Ireland and more recently Iraq and Afghanistan
Now Gerry. The pedant in me says dur, it’s soldiers in the British army. Sooo, they could be Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Nepalese, Australian, Jeez, any old place really…
Personally, I think it is really sad that such a potent symbol of loss and regret is dragged into the realm of small-minded point scoring. John McCrae, a Canadian doctor , wrote “In Flanders Fields” in response to the death of a friend during the First World War.
“In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.”
The poem inspired the symbol of the poppy as the very opposite of the jingoism that had gone before – the jingoism that led men to follow Redmond into battle in “defence of neutral Belgium”. The poppy is in memory of those Irishmen who fought in the hope of gaining a sort of independence for Ireland. They fought for the British and died along side them – their bravery on a par with Pearse and Connolly. It is sad and immature that we still debate this as a ‘mature’ nation’. Oh, but wait, sure we’re not really a nation until we coerce a minority on the island into thinking our way.
God Save Ireland.
Stamp of approval…
I don’t agree with you there, Northern Nationalists should not be coerced into a divided Ireland.
Funny Stephen. And should northern nationalists be coerced into a united Ireland? Or is that what you meant?
Michael i think your understanding of nationalism is a bit flawed.
@Paddy. I think your understanding of sarcasm is entirely flawed. But hey, educate me about nationalism if you wish…
Oh it was sarcasm Michael,of course it was. There ya go.
Jeez. Another touchy nationalist…
Why don’t we wear a DIFFERENT symbol to commemorate the Irish who fought in the great war and WWII?
It’s important to recognise the sacrifice these great men made but at the same time we must remember that during this period of history, we were subjects of an Empire that forcefully imposed it’s will on each and every Irish citizen, outlawing many aspects of our identity, our language being but one of these. That is part of our history and history is where it should remain but the question then becomes, is it appropriate for us to honour the British crown?
I believe that it isn’t but also that we are more than capable of designing a symbol of our own that is appropriate and respectful to our war dead.
Or you could wear the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29 which doesnt glorify the waste of lives that was world war one or is used to help justify current wars as has been the case in recent years.
And how does the red poppy glorify the waste of lives ? Remembrance is what the poppy is all about. The sad fact is that all that has changed is the scale of what is acceptable. Blair and Bush sent many young US and UK nationals to their deaths in foreign adventures. They are still sending glum heroes up the line to death. But that does not mean you disavow the sacrifice these people have made…. however avoidable and futile.
The majority of Irish people have not and do not wear the poppy. Why start know? It seems,to me, an affectation to start wearing it now. Do we really need to start wearing flowers to remember war is bad? It seems like someone shouting about how post nationalist and grown up they are. What makes it sadder is that nobody is listening.
I don’t think we should wear the symbol representing loss to a foreign army, however I do believe we should adapt our own remembrance day and wear maybe a green flower or some representative irish symbol in recognition of the lives lost on both sides in the struggle for independence, civil war and in the north, as a result of British rule. We could wear it on good Friday, for the good Friday agreement or some other appropriate date. Maybe then we could encourage the English to wear our symbols of loss? In terms of nov 11, the loss of Irish lives should be marked by us also, but not necessarily the same way the English, we should adapt is to mark the day in an Irish way.
Your comment is interesting in it singles out recognition of the ‘lives lost on both sides in the struggle for independence, civil war and in the north, as a result of British rule.’ What about Irishmen who died in other conflicts? Are they not worthy of recognition?
I am related to Tom Kettle, who died in the Somme in 1916. He was a nationalist MP who believed that Ireland’s assistance of Britain in the First World War would result in home rule and eventually independence. Does he and the other 50,000 Irish men who died in that war not deserve to be remembered?
I am all for an Irish remembrance day – but lets not be selective of the Irish men we choose to remember.
Under no circumstances…
I would wear the poppy with pride, remembering those brave Irish men that went on what they thought was a great adventure on mainland Europe between 1914-18, most went to escape unemployment and for the sence of adventure. we should remember the sacrifices they made in both world wars by wearing the poppy.
Patriotic Irish Men never served neither King nor Kaiser …..But Ireland !!!!!! Patriotic Irish People never served Bush or Blair ……….. Don’t wear Poppy!!!
Calm down….
Eire takes the piss…
Send in the Paddies old boy.. Anyone for cricket??!! We were once part of the UK and left for good reason. Let the British have their Poppy. It’s clearly now a British symbol. While many thing unite us, let us also respect our separate Nationalities, aspirations and traditions. No poppy here either.
Who are all these people who red thumb anyone who doesn’t want to wear the poppy? Where are all these would-be poppy wearers? Are ye Irish? I despair. Are things not bad enough?
Well I have worn the Poppy in Ireland and England , I have also marched on London to the Cenotaph as part of the WHITE POPPY group in the 1980 and I can tell you that was very intimidating with much abuse and missiles. WOULD I wear a Poppy now NO , The Poppy is now degraded by its almost compulsory and modern militaristic use in England, It has become a symbol of the British State and that Country’s hankering after lost Empire days and gives English People a false pride in their past History around the World and Nationalist sentiment. The Poppy has nothing to do with Irish People in World War 1, What Ireland needs is a State Day of Respect and Remembrance of all Irish People who gave their Life for Freedoms at all times in the past [World War 1 and 11].
Any symbol of commemoration should serve to unite people behind the ideas it serves to represent. Even a cursory glance at the comments here would show that the poppy has the opposite effect and even the Easter lily could be problematic for some. Therefore it is reasonable to accept that it is too divisive in Ireland and an alternative should be found. So why doesn’t the Journal take the initiative and run a competition to find an alternative and move the debate in a positive direction.
How about an olive leaf?
Wear the Lilly instead
If you’re proposing we wear a poppy should the British not also wear a shamrock or other symbol in recognition of the tens of thousands of Irish that died over two world wars fighting in their army and defending their nation?
not a bad idea including the indians, pakistanis, africans, polish and countless other nationalities that played their part in both wars defending britain only for britain to try and keep them and their descendants out
yes they do wear the shamrock. as do a lot of the royal family . do .and most of the Irish people that live there . i did when i lived there. for gods sake lets get over this crap . live and let live . if that is possible.
These young men did not give their lives for Britian, they made the ultimate sacrifice for the freedom of our countries!!
Vast majority of people here clearly don’t understand the reasons behind the poppy! I wear one, have it in my right now and I’m far from a loyalist! Small minded people are what’s holding this country back!
Many people have reasons for not wearing the poppy that are every bit as legitimate as your reason for wearing it. To brand them “small minded”, and to suggest that they “don’t understand” is dismissive, patronising and unwarranted.
I’ll never wear the Red Poppy. I would consider the White Poppy or a specific symbol for the Irish War dead however.
That’s the way – at least it’s a willingness to compromise. Cheers.
The Red Poppy has become too Politicised in my mind to ever wear it I’m afraid. I’m happy wearing the White Poppy, alas I never seem to see anyone selling it around East Cork.
Excellent thought provoking piece, we have a divided Island and divided history, Lilly or Poppy, or both….we’re all Irish.
I think Ireland would be a different place today if the Nazis had won the war even though it was a neutral country. I don’t think they would have stopped at the Irish sea.
The Germans had plans to use Ireland as one big vegtable garden to help feed Germans living in western Europe, they didnt care much for our independence but found the IRA a useful tool for their own aims.
Operation Green it was called
Yes imagine, if germany had won the war we might all be speaking german now instead of our native english tongue. Heeey, Hang on a minute…
The poppy glorifies war. Stating that it honours soldiers that died is obfuscating the issue. I’ve always thought that Wilfred Owen’s poem hits closer to the truth – they thought that they would be having Christmas dinner in Paris, while in reality they spent another four grueling years before armistice was declared.
World War One was not a struggle between democracy and barbarism. It was a struggle between empires, between super powers, over territory. If Germany had won, do not delude yourself into thinking that the world would be a worse off place.
World War Two has always been portrayed disingenuously. We know with HINDSIGHT that the war was just, but whether Hitler killed six million Jews or not Britain would have declared war. Again, this was all based on military and territorial issues – not the merits of Democracy over Nazism. The Jews did not feature highly on Allied plans until the liberation of the concentration camps.
So no, I’ll never wear a poppy for the same reason that I’ll never wear an Easter Lily. Although I hold the commanders of 1916 in infinitely higher regard than the leading officers of the British Army and the British War Cabinet in both conflicts, war is still war. Death is still death. Destruction is still destruction. No matter how you cut it, it’s horrible and unpleasant.
The only merit I can think of to it is that it acts as an extreme form of population control, but there are less unpleasant ways of achieving that like the good old jimmy cap. It’s not just for sailors you know.
Absolutely not.
It does not matter if you wear a poppy or not!.. We have to remember all of the people who died in the wars..
Eileen. Your friends are wrong. I should know I am English. People, ordinary everyday people, wear the poppy with pride. We have all lost someone in the World Wars who fought for our freedom. Your freedom too remember. Respect that is what it is about.
Please Barbara, quote.. ( I should know because I am English ) my friends are English and Scots. Just look at the television when people go walk-about , no poppies except on the newscaster or journalist.
As I have already said below, I do remember the people who died for my freedom, I wear a lilly. Differant country differant flower…that simple.
It is certainly not about Irish freedom…….Poppy wearers and their like played no part in Irelands fight for freedom and independence from England…
Barbara as you are English i totally understand why you would wear one but i am totally opposed to Irish people wearing them as i believe it creates a hierarchy of victims- There are not any symbols to remember Irish soldiers killed afterwards (UN Peacekeeping missions etc.). Ultimately the poppy, rightly or wrongly, is British. Also the Royal British Legion funds British soldiers that were in Afghanistan and Iraq (and NI)- the money collected in Ireland are not only given to WWIs family but also to RIR (which i am totally opposed to- why would anybody join a foreign army and fight in a disgraceful war) . Ireland needs a unifying symbol- for all Irish soldiers killed- why does there need to be a separate symbol for WWI? (that has now turned into remembrance for ALL british soldiers killed)
Surely the notion that we are ‘free’ is back up for debate?
Nice, Lisbon, WMD, partition, IMF, Bank gaurantees, NAMA….how many more strokes are pulled before we wake up?
Well English,(your name suggests otherwise), Barbara you wear your poppy and we`ll wear our lillies.I`ll remember Irishmen and women who fought for our freedom and you can remember those who killed them.
Irish blood has been spilled on many battlefields The Battle of Fonteney, French Revolution, American War Of Independence and the Civil War. World War One, World War two and famously on both sides of the Spanish Civil War. Not to mention those who died in our own quest for freedom.
How about we scrap st Patricks Day rename it ” rememberance day as gaeilge”. Since we are all not religious anymore no need celebrating a Saints day. And remember all those Irishmen who died Worldwide in conflict.
For sale. Chestnut. Old.
Every November. Past and future.
Should ‘we’? Shouldn’t ‘we’?
Wear it. Or not. Just don’t trot out the same old shite (from both sides) every fkn year.
The Great War was fought in the name of the right of smaller nations to freedom and self-determination, in the face of imperialism. The tragic irony of young Irishmen being sent to fight and die so cheaply under British command in such a war is overwhelming, and taints our perception of the poppy as a gesture of remembrance. I don’t see that changing soon.
Most Irishmen from the south went of their own free will.
@ Karl. To which county in the south do you refer? Cork, Kerry?
If by “free will”, Karl, you refer to sparing one’s family the death sentence that was unemployment in the years of the Great War, or the vain hope of home rule and independence, then you are right. But it is my view that economic duress and vain promises do not constitute full and free consent to the carnage that befell those who went to the front for Britian.
I have no strong standpoint on the issue of remembrance, btw, and acknowledge that many of those who died were there for the noblest of purposes, but merely seek to understand all reasoning for wearing the poppy or not, especially as either standpoint courts controversy.
Karl @ Most Irish mendid not go of their own free wiil ! Have you ever heard of the Great Lock Out ? Oh and another point of FACT Karl,our island was not DIVIDED in 1914 !!!
The white poppy is not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War but a challenge to the continuing drive to war. I’d wear that poppie.
If people wish to wear the poppy here then so be it. If they dont want to wear it then thats fine too. Live and let live life is too short for pointless bickering. Its not as if the dead soldiers are going to care either way.
Some of the ignorance and bigotry here is breathtaking. The poppy is worn not just in the UK but Australia & New Zealand (to name a few) and is proudly worn to show respects for the fallen from WW1 and all subsequent wars. Simple. There is no country who can state their men were not ‘canon fodder’. It is NOT a celebration of war but simply a symbol to reflect on the needless & tragic loss of life that war (many started dubiously) brings. Simple.
Now, really, who gave a thumbs down? Shall I tell my Antipodean colleagues that they shouldn’t remember the 55 Australian and New Zealand soldiers who have died in Afghanistan & Iraq (or 500+ in Vietnam) because to do so would offend Irish nationalists who view their act of remembrance as servitude to the great English oppressor?
None of these wars are ‘popular’, governments make the often dubious decision to go to war and people should be allowed to reflect on those often needlessly lost with respect and honour.
Wear it, or don’t wear it. But don’t cloak it with ignorance and turn it into a symbol of bigotry.
I would feel a bit uncomfortable wearing the poppy and haven’t yet worn one. But some day I may do so. I have also never bought or worn an Easter lily. I have relations who fought in the Boer war, my grandfather fought with the so called “free state army”. I also have a huge and very proud Irish republican history on the other side of my family. I don’t think I am that unusual in Ireland. I honour all my relatives who gave their lives for a cause they believed in. Some of the comments on this thread display a level of immaturity and intolerance which is rather pathetic to be honest. Probably made by folk who haven’t thought what it must have been like to live in a very poor Ireland in 1914 or thereabouts. The wages earned as a soldier would make the difference between a family surviving or starving. None of the Irish who fought in 1st WW were conscripted – they volunteered. And they were admired and feted when they did so. At that time there was no other legitimate army to join. But by the time 1918 came round the climate in Ireland had changed beyond recognition and men who went out as heroes came back as “the enemy”. It’s only in last few years they have got due respect (helped by Mary McAleese’s efforts I might add). So please remember when you are making those nasty and insulting comments you are disrespecting ordinary decent Irishmen who I for one am very proud of. May they rest in peace.
Well said I had an uncle in the R A F.He died in a Japanese POW camp in May 1945 he was 25 years old.I also had grandparents who supported Micheal Collins.I have a daughter who has carried out peace keeping (U N) duties.I am proud of all of them.They did what they thought was right at the time.Times change.We should all learn history,it might help in the future.
Being Flemish, I have often visited the graveyards in Ieper, where 10s of thousands of young men are buried. They are lysine there, somenamed, Many more not named. And then to see the hundreds of thousands of names unscripted on the wall and the gate in Meningen of those who were never found.
I take my children to those places, and to the war museum in Ieper, and if you ever go to Belgium I would advise you all to go. What you see is the horrendous senselessness of war and violence. The poppy is to me a mark of honour to all those young people who lost their lives on our soil. English, Irish, flemish,, Walloon, Australian, and also the Germans. These people lost their lives for what? Some arguing royals? We should never forget them . No more war! Is what many of us Flemish have decided after two world wars. The dead soldiers lying in Ieper and surroundings would certainly agree.
Every week two englishmen arrive in Ieper to blow ‘the last post’ to those who died, that is a very touching tradition. None of these people brought shame on anyone, it is their kings and queens who did. The poppy honours the fallen, not their so called superiors.
Do you wear the poppy in Belgium?
@pen name: on the 11th of November poppies are laid at the statues of the unknown soldiers. It has nothing to do with the English, but with the symbol that poppies have become for those who lost their lives in Wars. We all agree in Belgium that no war is a Great War.
I don’t think people wear poppies. But that is a cultural difference. We also don’t wear christmas hats :-)
For those of you who don’t know it:
In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
here in Ireland I wear it as a mark of respect to the Irishmen who died in my country.
wear a poppy ! NO WAY.. I do not support the british army who murdered, spread disease, taxed etc etc etc…
a best seeling T-SHIRT in bankok reads :
JOIN THE xxx ARMY
TRAVEL THE WORLD
GET TO MEET THE LOCALS and
KILL THEM
Why dont we have a FORGET the war DAY !
in the EAST we let it go…
I suppose the poppy is one of the few things that
UK.england has left of its once GREAT(sic) BRITISH EMPIRE
ps england is NOT a nation
The poppy is to honor those who died not to remember the war. My two great grandfathers and one grandfather fought in both wars, not out of allegiance to the crown but out of poverty and desperation. When they came home they had to hide the fact that they had been to war out of fear of what would happen to them at the hands of their own people. These men endured incredible hardship and horror and a lot of them were only 18 or 19 years of age. Today is rememberance day to honor our ancestors sacrifices and show them some respect. I would wear the poppy with pride. They have endured more than their fair share of pain and misery.
thanks for that sane reply to that fanatical comment
Nobody here actually sought to talk about the original meaning of the poppy which was inspired by the poem “in Flanders fields”. It is extremely anti war, and the poet simply points out that he finds hope in the fact that poppies can still grow (even on the battlefields and graves). The poppy was the only flower which flourished because it prefers disturbed soil. It’s not political, nationalistic, glorification or prowar at all, a simple message of hope in the darkness of war. But then it’s a symbol so at the end of the day anyone can choose to interpret in which ever they want!
Well said andrew.
Eileen. I give up. Small minds forever remain small it seems. see what you want to see, keep the blinkers on. goodnight
Give up Barbara…on what, I only said what my English friends have told me, no small mind if I do not support the poppy , so childish. I wear the lilly for all who died fighting for freedom. You explain WHY I should wear the poppy.
Barbara..forgot to tell you …I am Irish and living in Ireland.
The French don’t wear a poppy, neither the Germans. So why should we ape the English? Let’s just do what we did with the postboxes when they left…paint it green.
British not english. The french wear a cornflower.
screw the poppy and the shamrock and all symbols of jingoism!
My great grandfather fought in WW1 and my other grandfather was a Flying Column during the War of Independence. I would proudly wear the Poppy.
Oh Paddy Farrell will you ever grow up. By the way did you ever hear of anybody changing their name when marrying? Anyway we are all europeans now. Happy days!
@ Barbara. All i`m suggesting is you stick to honouring the murderers of the civil rights marchers in Derry and i`ll continue honouring the Irish people who fought against them. Btw
Er, Paddy, you’re beginning to look a bit silly at this stage. I may be mistaken, but by my calculation even those who survived WWs I & II were de-mobbed before 1972…
Michael Cuthbert.
It’s the same army. STUPID.
Thanks Desmond. What is?
Michael are you seriously suggesting the poppy doesn`t honour British soldiers who served after WW2? Btw Barbara we always were European.
No Paddy. Scroll up. Clearly not…
wearing the poppy doesn’t bother me so much as not wearing the easter lily, we’ve got a seriouc identity problem in this country.
Exactly. This isnt Britain, so we do not need to wear symbols of its military especially when do not even honour our own. Lets honour these brave people who died in WW1 and WW2, but with our own emblem, like the French do.
Why all the thumbs down on this page? The best thing about the Irish revolution was that it freed us from sham allegiances such as this.
@Reada I do agree there should be no war in general and I understand that alot of people see it as lip service to Britain,by wearing it, however to be fair we as a nation don’t really commerate those Irishmen and women who died for freedom and against nazism(ww2) I stress that word not for a monarch or foreign nation during the 2 world wars, i personally believe if Irishmen and women had fought under their own flag it would be a different story as regards commerating their sacrifices
I’d wear it for a bet.
To all the heroes who have fought for our freedom across the world, now and in past wars. Poppy or not, lets not forget the fallen.
Like it or not, the poppy is not an apolitical symbol. The British use it to promote all their wars, the unjust and colonial among them. Here’s a test for those who argue for wearing the poppy: would you accept a completely different symbol which recognises only the Irish who were slaughtered in WWI? Or is this a matter of rehabilitating imperialist war?
Symbolically we need something of our own. It doesn’t make sense to wear the poppy as we need to find our way to remember all those who died in wars – all of them. Don’t know if it would work but the fushcia (honeysuckle) is blood red, shaped like a tear, and lines the roads of this country.
The fuschia is not a honeysuckle
I am shocked by the ignorance and bile I have seen on this comment thread – my grandfather was a decorated World War I hero, and fought among other brave Irish (and English, and French, and Belgian… etc) men who died fighting a war they were told would end all wars. There was not even an independent Ireland at the time – we were part of Britain. Does that matter ? Does the sacrifice these men made for the freedoms we now enjoy mean anything less because of the situation in Northern Ireland ?
It certainly shouldn’t. Go visit the graveyards in Arras, Verdun, Thiepval, Ypres; anywhere on the Western front. Take in the scale of human suffering; the countless graves of men, boys – be they English, Irish, German, Canadian, French or otherwise and I challenge you not to be moved by the sheer horror these men endured. The poppy not only reminds us of the war dead, it reminds us of the horror of that war. Some may see it as glorification, and that is a valid view, but regardless the sacrifices these men made must be respected if history is to be understood. Simple minded anti-brit attitudes already made pariahs out of these men, please do not continue it.
I remain absolutely disgusted by the ugly bigotted comments masquerading as nationalism here – go read your history books and realise that the great war had men, both nationalist and loyalist, fighting a much greater battle with deeper consequences than our national struggle.
excellent response, David
No.
Bet this conversation about a bit of plastic on a lapel is forgotten instantly on 12th of November.
The conversation will be repeated next year….ad infinitum.
Nationalists have the poppy rammed down their throats every year by a country which constantly tells the Irish to stop living in the past. The British have to stop living in the past. How about the BBC and other media outlets wearing the Easter Lilly, to show respect for the Irishmen and women murdered by the British? Bet you they won’t do it.
Having a grand-uncle who fought in the RAF because of conscription when he emmigrated and another grand-uncle who fought for our freedom in a flying column, I think we should have our own symbol to commemorate ALL Irish war dead. Be it with the IRA, British Army or Irish Army peacekeeping with UN. I don’t want to use a symbol that also commemorates the black and tans and the parachute regiment. The French use the Cornflower. We need our own symbol, not a British one..
People have to remember that the Great War was not only a British War, what about the Belgians and the French? Those who fought were fighting for Belgium and France not Britain. Britain had no say in the war but were operating under the instructions of the French. The poppy represents the poppy fields of France where there was mass destruction. People get over yourselves, Think of the bigger picture of the Great War and not the blinkered thoughts of Ireland and The Empire…..
Wear a poppy to honour the people responsible for the victims in the video below? No thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4yIPQtA3-XM#!
I’m too busy trying to figure out why the number of matter particles in the universe outnumber the number of anti matter particles in the universe.
Stupid people rule this third rock from the sun.
@Pete_Gibson. Any wisdom on the particles and any celestial significance to 11.11.11 and Ireland getting a humanist president? I am being sincere.
I think it’s important not just for The Great War but also for the Irish who are fighting in Afghanistan RIGHT NOW with the British Forces. More of them than ever are joining up with the British Armed Forces than ever before because of a) the lack of work at home and b) our own Defence Forces are not recruiting. Read Patrick Bury’s (a Wicklow man) memoir “Callsign Hades” (ISBN: 978-1847378590). His article for the Herald is here: http://goo.gl/aXhd0
Irishmen, from the Republic too, have been killed (a Dubliner was killed a couple of years back) and I know of one from Galway who recently came back in a psychological mess. I heard that from the man’s own father. Whatever their reasons, these people deserve our support and respect, regardless of whose flag they fight under. Once the bullets start snapping by country and creed go out the window. I wear a poppy for the above reasons. People (even strangers) have asked asked me why and I have no problem telling them.
The poppy commemorates all British soldiers who have died since WW1, so it includes those who have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and the North of Ireland. I applaud the British for remembering their dead with such passion, maybe we should not be so embarrassed to commemorate those who fought for Irish freedom…..
The poppy is a British commemorative emblem. Which commemorates the fallen soldiers of the British commonwealth. It shouldnt become an emblem of the south.I’m not for one minute forgetting about the thousands of Irish who fought and died.however the British forces occupied Ireland and the people not only in the north, the south also. At the time of the 1st world war. people want to remember the war dead think of something, which includes all war dead Irish, British, etc etc so all are included.promote the Irish armed forces, British armed forces,(leave the politics at home) so they have an understanding of what the soldiers have done.
Isn’t it lovely that you get the opportunity to write this article, and that people are allowed to leave comments disagreeing? I tend to associate poppies more with WW2 than 1, [probably because my grandfather fought in it. If he, and thousands others hadn’t, no one would be having this discussion
yes
Why would you wear it David? Do you also wear an Easter Lily?
i dont mind remembering those conscripts who died in both wars but not the volunteer thugs who brought such violence to kenya, aden, cyprus, ireland , iraq and aghanistan among many others
if these mercenaries get wounded let the british government who sent them there pay for it
Whether its a white or red poppy, something should be introduced that remembers Irelands war dead. Over 200,000 Irish enlisted and over 50,000 died in Flanders, Turkey and Mesopotamia – a huge figure considering conscription wasn’t introduced in Ireland. That those soldiers who went through so much (including my grandfather in WW1) to have their sacrifices swept under the carpet for over 80 years is a long overdue issue that needs to be addressed.
Has Gay Mitchel been in contact with you? Sounds like something he would come up with. Certainly have some way of remembering the Irish that lost their lives in the countless conflicts that they threw themselves into but the purely political symbol of the poppy has no place in Ireland.
Yes.
As a southern irishman possibly the first, completely impartial account of what it is to feel conflicted about our past. Thank you for being a voice of reason amongst a sea of narrow-minded long-memoried nay sayers.
have your say