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DO READERS NEED to be told what is good fiction and what is not? Consider a world where JK Rowling could call herself Joanne Rowling, author of Harry Potter, or her book The Casual Vacancy could have been critically analysed without referencing what she had written before? Did those who wrote harsh criticism of her adult novel get smug satisfaction for pulling the hugely successful author down?
Either way her book was always going to be a number one bestseller for curiosity value if nothing else. Last week, the UK’s Sunday Times revealed the infamous author had written a book under a different name, a man’s, no less. So, is it a master stroke and marketing dream writing a crime novel under the pseudonym, Robert Galbraith, and what exactly has she highlighted?
Writing under a man’s name has liberated her. I wonder is it the fact that the book only sold 1,500 copies that pushed for the lid to be lifted.
Ms Rowling may feel a certain sense of approval that her work achieved merit under a different pen name but she has nothing to prove to herself or anyone. Despite the huge marketing machine that made her Harry Potter novels massive success, she gave hours of pleasure to millions of readers no matter what the critics thought. That is the true merit of being a good writer.
But I ask the reading public to consider the real Robert Galbraith, because he is out there and so is Joanne Rowling. Consider their plights for a moment before you decide to purchase your next read. JK is going to cash in hugely now as her coup has created enough excitement and nobody is going to criticise a work that has already been given the critics seal of approval because surely that would be admitting that the Emperor’s New Clothes were really his birthday suit.
It is sad that she had to use a man’s name to achieve critical acclaim in this new genre but this is not a feminist issue as there are plenty of successful men writing women’s fiction under female pen names. What it does say is that readers and critics can pigeon-hole authors depending on their names and herein lies the problem.
Prejudice exists and petty snobbery and standards are rife in all forms of the arts – especially literature. For anyone who doubts this perhaps consider the experiment carried out by The Washington Post in 2007. One of the world’s most acclaimed violinists, Joshua Bell, played in a subway station at rush hour on his $3,500,000 violin.
The pieces he played were by Bach and he had played them two nights previously to a packed theatre where seats were $100 a piece. However taken out of context few noticed him play in the subway. Even fewer stopped to throw him a coin. In fact it was only the children who had no pre-conceived opinions on good or bad music that seemed to be interested in what he was performing. One little child who stopped was the most anxious to listen but was pulled along – no doubt he is of similar spirit to the little boy who laughed at the Emperor’s New Clothes.
(YouTube/WashingtonPost)
The experiment carried out by JK begs two major questions. Do we need to be told what is quality art or literature as we get older? And how does the real Robert Galbraith feel? After spilling his heart into a novel, crafting it for hours, finally getting a publisher to take it and after getting that publisher to market it as hard as possible and putting it in the hands of top reviewers – is he meant to be delighted to sell 1,500 copies?
In this day and age he would not work back his advance which was probably somewhere between £5,000 and £10,000 – if he was lucky. Not exactly a fortune for a year or more work. So spare a thought for the real Robert Galbraiths out there that don’t have a trump card like JK and be true to your own taste – not what you are told is good art.
Michelle Jackson is the author of five bestselling novels and co-author of What Women Know – a book of wisdom for women. She is a teacher, travel-writer and panellist on TV3 Midday. For more information see www.michellejackson.ie . Her new novel is 5 Peppermint Grove and available in all good bookshops now published by Poolbeg press €9.99.
I’ve posted this before on this subject…I’m not RC but worked in the local RC primary school as school secretary, their policy was NOT baptised first, but first come first served.
Exactly Joan, but people want to play the “race card”. Why? Because they feel they have an entitlement because they are a minority, it’s amazing how many people still fall for it. The amazing thing with the PC brigade is that if a house was for rent beside them and the local authorities were going to move a Romany or Traveller family in they’d be running to their local TD and Courthouse to get an injunction. Sickening the whole lot of them, hypocritical to the core.
“I was shocked that they would say this, I couldn’t believe that they would suggest that my daughter change her religion, i want all the other children to change their religion for my daughter”
That’s all well and good Joan, that is not the normal policy at most Catholic schools. This problem has been going on for years. My parents help set up a multi-denominational school over 30 years ago due to the lack of an option to have myself and my brother educated outside of the Catholic faith. This man is not even requesting entry to a non/multi-denominational school (as I will be) but on entrance to ANY school. I am disgusted by the hate-filled racist comments here. If it helps all the biggoted people there are plenty of white Irish people in the same position, including many of my friends. There was a March held a couple of weeks ago and an Irish woman (that’s a white ex-Catholic for all of you who seem to care so much) who’s daughter was turned away from 9 schools last year and is on the list for 15 this year and still may not secure a place, and again has been told it is because she is not babtised. I know of only one person of my age who regularly attends mass, yet the majority (though thankfully dropping) of my friends babtise their children, explicitly stating it is for school entry. My tax pays for schools, my child should not be discriminated against because of their religion or lack of religion. I should not have to fight for access to education just because I am not Catholic. It is so messed up. I am delighted this issue is finally getting the attention it deserves. and for the record, I’m pretty sure it’s free to start a social media campaign – time and dedication is all that required to man a Facebook page, and well done to all of those that are doing so.
Same in our local schools , Joan.
It’s seems to me there is a lack of school places in certain very populated areas and that is the main issue here. Don’t blame the schools here. Blame the Minister for Education
They are Irish Citizens.
I call B.S. on you Suzie
Nice Brendan. Ireland for the RC, white Irish only, right.
Xenophobic much?
Anyone else a bit hesitant about this anonymous user account playing the school staff card!.. I want all this selection policy centralised by the department and where it’s a across the state how children get admitted.
Call what you want Richard ,what I’ve said is true regarding our local schools .
Blatthnaid….scare monger much. Not once did he say that everyone should change their religion to suit him.
Nira….. And the RC church for decades covered up widespread abuse of children and still they are allowed to run our schools. Amazingly!
So Joan if you had 2 candidates of equal status applying for one position at a catholic school, one baptised and one not. What is the criteria for selection?
Religion isn’t a race Stephen. There are plenty of unbaptised Irish kids also who have the potential to be descriminated against like this guy.s daughter.
Exactly Jason. Would we put up with having to go to Catholic or Protestant hospitals, absolutely not. Schools that are funded by the state should not discriminate based on religion. If a school is over subscribed then some other method needs to be devised to ensure fair enrollment. The fact that a child of four or five is baptised or not should never be a factor.
@Suzie – Richard never has anything to say other than disparage the comments of others not in alignment with his liberal worldview.
Hmmm have the anti marriage equality brigade found a new hobby horse?
This is their country.
Joan, some schools have a first come, first served policy or one based on catchment area and/or age, but many many schools have enrolment policies that prioritise children who are baptised. My son was rejected from three schools for this reason.
joan that school must be an exception as it’s common knowledge and schools don’t deny giving places to Catholic kids first
Nevermind about religion of the person, there are many Irish people who cannot find places for their children, in the land their Irish ancestors died for….and they say multiculturalism is all great with no increased competition for places in jobs, schools, universities, hospital beds, health services……welcome to reality
Another media and multicult agenda halapanaavar hyped halapulavar, complete with heart-string emotional blackmail photo of child that none of us can dare refuse. Well no, I am going to think about all the Irish kids who are going hungry or homeless or have no Mom or Dad and cannot get schooling etc. And no I don’t consider people who got our confetti citizenship through an illegal sovereignty violation policy of mass-immigration, as citizens. In any event simply becoming a citizen legally or not, does not make you an Irish person, that takes western European blood.
The dude , I know , that’s all he does .
Sinead, it is trite to say blame the Minister for Education. The Minister does not live in a dictatorship and has to deal with the constitutional rights afforded to religions as well as the rights afforded to property. I also suspect that if the Minister took the line you might like he would be lambasted and would face massive public opposition. What this case demonstrates is that we need a real national debate about the choice available to us in our schooling system which is overwhelmingly funded by the State. For the record I support multi-denominational schools and the availability of choice including non-denominational schools. My point is that simply blaming politicians for every ill allows us all to ignore the mote in our own eye which seems to be an Irish pastime. Our school system is the way it is because that is the way we wanted it historically. How many Irish people have really changed their minds about denominational education and absence of choice? I would favour a first come first served policy irrespective of religion. I guarantee you that the RC Church would hand over some schools to the State or community very quickly indeed if that was enforced.
If you make unfounded comments or can’t back them up I’m very happy to call it out Suzie & The Dude,unfortunately both of you have a high propensity for both.
I wonder when we’ll have to have segregated PE classes!? Anybody know when that is going to happen? And segregated swimming classes presumably (where presumably also only a female teacher/and swimming instructor will be allowed in attendance). Ali Selim…one of the movers behind this push to allow Muslims and other religions into Catholic/state schools ‘suggests there is “a clash of values”… between Islam and “traditional ways of teaching PE”. In some schools, “under the guise of health and safety, Muslim girls are obliged to take off their headscarves for PE classes, which is not acceptable to them”. Where schools were “persistent”, they should “employ a female PE teacher and provide students with a sports hall not accessible to men during times when girls are at play. They should also not be visible to men while at play.” Also, Muslim girls would resist changing clothes in a communal area. When it came to music some Muslims would see it as prohibited but “if music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem”….so no fiddles, guitars and pianos….On school plays Dr Selim points out that “physical contact between members of the opposite sex who can be legally married is forbidden in Islam” and that “gender role-reversal is not permissible”. Oh and school raffles will also be out soon “any form of raffle is strictly forbidden in Islam”’
The government have, in my opinion, opened a can of worms. How are we going to cater for a religion or other religions that fundamentally believe in living life differently to how most Irish people want to live life? I wouldn’t want lots of young girls/boys to be schooled in this kind of environment or be influenced by it in any way.
@eireblood you are one screwed up sick muppet.
Well Joan, your one school not having that policy proves nothing – perhaps they were not a very popular and over-subscribed school. The fact that you can ascertain by looking at admissions policies online of schools is that very many DO have that policy. I know many parents who cannot get a school place in any school for their child within a five-mile radius simply because their child is not baptised. That is a fact. Children who are baptised from outside the area are higher in the criteria. These are 100% state funded schools. That is not OK.
Some facts for the uneducated:
Despite the nasty racism shown here (none of ye are Christians obviously), this is not a minority issue at all. Irish citizens want access to our 100% state-funded local religious schools because there is no other choice, because 96% are controlled by religious organisations.
A majority of Irish citizens want non-religious patrons for their children’s schools – this is not a minority issue. This includes the many Catholic parents who do not want their children segregated by their religion – ET schools have Catholic parents too you know! Here’s the link to info on those reputable surveys – by the Irish Primary School Principals Network and others – one even by the Iona Institute found that a majority of Irish people want non-religious patrons for schools!!! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-anti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-anti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html (Page 42)
The archbishop has said that he agrees around half of current state-funded schools run by the RCC should be divested and there is an agreement that buildings will be handed over. Why do we all morally own those buildings and have a right to them? Because the state has paid 100% for their maintenance, refurbishment and often re-building to the tune of billions, while they have remained the assets of the religious orders that legally own them. In addition, the church owes over a billion to the state for its share of compensation for abuse by its staff – they have still not paid it so we are all picking up that tab. Finally, our parents all paid for those buildings, which morally belong to the community. So the state has the moral right to have some of these buildings for the large number of citizens who want schools with non-religious patrons. Progress has been slower than has been agreed between church and state – so the state must take serious action now.
Apologies – wrong links there – but that link is a good read too – shows that religious bigotry is not restricted to ‘other’ religions:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/majority-prefers-schools-not-run-by-church-1.511289
https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/The-Forum-on-Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector-Report-of-the-Forums-Advisory-Group.pdf (Page 42)
What was the school Joan, and can we see their admissions policy online?
You have an enlightened principal who tool it out of your school’s enrolment policy. But your principal decided to do that, it wasn’t supported by law.
She on the other foot!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being catholic in India…..
Growing up in Calcutta, I went to a good convent school–arguablyone of the best in the city–where morning Assembly was held at 7:45 sharp. While rows of us girls sang “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me,” I would start to squirm as I caught the eye of a Hinduclassmate, one of my closest friends.
I steeled myself for her angry post-Assembly outburst against all”your” stupid Jesus songs. She said “your” because I am Catholic–but not astraightforward unapologetic Catholic with a name like Patty Egan or AnnaRodriguez.
Instead, I am something more complex: My father is Hindu, a BengaliBrahmin. My mother is a South Indian Catholic. My first name, Rupali, isvery Indian, very Bengali, just like my surname, Ghosh. But sandwichedbetween all this traditional Hinduism was the hateful baptismal name I went by–Rachel–which sounded absurd to my Hindu friends. I was raisedCatholic, and my name told everyone I was different.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2000/11/Confessions-Of-A-Hindu-Catholic-Schoolgirl.aspx
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2000/11/Confessions-Of-A-Hindu-Catholic-Schoolgirl.aspx#eb0v0SqdC7iYOL8k.99
Pifft……….
I don’t know where Joan’s school is Little Diddy No, but, I do know that the ns school both my boys attended didn’t discriminate on the basis of religion – if places were freely available. However certain priority policies did kick in if there was an over subscription for places. The following is taken from the schools admission policy document: Enrolment Criteria Junior Infant Standard In the event that applications for enrolment in Junior Infant Standard exceed the number of places available the following enrolment criteria will apply:- Child of current staff member who is in permanent and pensionable employment. Priority to oldest. Sisters and/or brothers of pupils currently in the school. Priority to oldest. Catholic children living within the parish boundary. Priority to oldest. Child of a parent who had a previous child enrolled in the school. Priority to oldest. Child of a previous past pupil. Priority to oldest. The oldest child on the list of applicants left. Basically, where there is a shortage of places then a child who is a baptised catholic they get priority after the teachers kids
Schools have different enrolment policies Joan-many religious schools do place baptism requirement first.
Blaithnaidi1986, stop making problems for your daughter.
What religion would you like other children to change to?
Derek, you are very anxious for a catholic school for your son if you went to three looking for a place for him.
Nothing wrong with India. Why do they need Irish citizenship for? Benefits Benefits Benefits. I hope he doesn’t see a cow being milked in the Ireland. Oh they might be running away from being raped.
Eire blood -you are a pathetic person who was deprived of love as a child and has continued to fail at everything in life. Welcome to reality
If you can’t get what you want, play the “racist card”, typical in this day and age. If it were an ordinary Joe soap Irish kid there’d be no big furor. The more I read about these “poor me I’m an immigrant and deserve more than anyone else” stories, the less I want to see any more come in.
You’re so far off the mark I was nearly going to forget replying to you as you’re obviously a bit of a moron. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with how badly run the education system is here. I’m a father of an unbaptised/non religious child and I am facing the same problems trying to get my son into a school and all because I refuse to indoctrinate him to believe there’s a big man in the sky and let him make his own mind up when he’s older which is what all parents should do. Every child in the world is born an atheist, it’s stupid rules like this that keep religion in the mainstream when it should be banished to history. You’re the one who used the race card in this argument.
Nothing to do with race. This is about “TAXPAYERS” being denied places for their children in 90% of the countries schools because of his religion. Schools which are funded by his taxes. Cop yerself on Stephen !
Bollox!! There’s families up and down the country struggling to get a place in school for their kids due to limited places. If it’s not the race card why mention race or religion in the story? It’s typical of the bs PC world we live in. If it were a 5 yr old white kid this story never makes the news, face facts. Every child is born an atheist? Or did you choose your child becomes an atheist because you are? Isn’t atheism itself a form of religion? Just like paganism? Oh you hypocrite. Come out from that rock you’re under, put a real name to your profile, a real picture and then maybe we can have a real conversation, you’re just another keyboard warrior.
What an absolutely stupid comment, myself and my wife are starting a family soon and as neither of us are religious we don’t want to christen our child. Several friends said ‘ah you should just do it so they can get into a decent school’. None of these guys were religious themselves and just saw it as a way to have less hassle in future. A child doesn’t have a religion, they’ve no concept of one other than what their parents have thought or told them so to discriminate based on this is ridiculous
Where was race mentioned in the story? And what has religion got to do with race? You’re not the brightest are you?
Atheism is not a religion. I can’t converse with you, it actually pains me to talk to someone who talks out their ass.
Honestly one of the stupidest comments I’ve seen on the Journal Stephen and thats saying a lot. The guy was told that his child is on the bottom of a waiting list as she is not catholic. That is discrimination based on religion, the guys not playing the race card he’s disgusted (and rightly so) that any place of education could put one child above another based on them not being a certain religion.
A child deserves the right to be educated no matter what religion.
Says your man walking around with a brown paper bag on his head pretending to be a gangster, will ya fcuk off, will u ffs.
@stephen I’d stop now if I was you, youve even made to look the complete idiot and totally PWNED
You’re going on his word? Where’s the proof? I love how all the sheeple come together and follow the herd.
If an Irish dad would take the time to organise a rally and get this on the agenda somewhere, it would get media attention too so your comment is full of s h * t e Stephen.
Blame The Journal for playing the ‘race card’ as they are putting this item like this on the Internet.
Yep “Paul Wallace”, another bs profile of someone pretending to be someone they’re not, yet another keyboard warrior hiding in the WWW. Why can’t people be brave enough to be commenting as themselves? It’s so easy to hide behind a false persona and throw comments out, do it as the “real” you, then maybe I’d give you an iota of respect. But of course that won’t happen. The Brad Paisley song “Online” comes to mind for so many on here.
Think you’ll find its religious sheeple who follow the herd. The rest of us can think for ourselves. You’ve made yourself look a right fool this morning Stephen. It’s better to be thought a fool and keep your mouth shut than to open it and remove all doubt.
@ Stephen “you’re going on his word”….
Cut the hypocritical BS. You took Joan’s comment above as gospel, because it supported your stance on the topic.
Moronic stuff.
You’re walking around with a brown paper bag on your head, pretending to hold a gun under a black plastic bag, wearing a HD tshirt and drinking a can of cheap lager. Are you for real? Jaysus Christ of almighty, the world has gone mad, the lunatics have finally taken over the asylum.
*not be forced
This problems effects thousands of Irish children too. At the end of the day, parents should be ‘forced’ into baptising their child just so they can get a place in the local school. To think this goes on in 2015 is outrageous. Can you imagine if Catholics up North had to baptise their children as protestants in order to get them the best education? People would be up in arms. Why is this any different?
Her explanation seems far more plausible and honest. Show me letters from the schools or arch diocese, emails, texts or any written communication. Until then it’s hearsay, unfounded and IMO whether you like it or not, stinking of “poor minority little me”. Go try this BS as a Christian in India or Saudi Arabia and see the response you’d get.
“Isn’t atheism a form of religion” – Stephen Duggan, what a guy
No reply to my comments Stephen? Given that I’ve no paper bag on my head and no fake name I thought i’d actually get a reply but as you’re making fcuk all sense here in almost every comment I think that says it all. A complete moron.
Can you imagine if Catholics up North had to baptise their children as protestants in order to get them the best education? People would be up in arms. Why is this any different?
Exactly Beano, great comment
@ Stephen – I reckon you could be right. I doubt that non catholic or non white children are being denied places in schools all the time, right across the country. Its probably more true there are both catholic and non catholic being denied places because of resource constraints. The race card does often get played its a fact and sometimes its true and sometimes it isnt.
Why would you want your catholic kids going to a protestant school? You send them to a Catholic school. In the UK you have to be catholic to attend a Catholic school.
it’s a Catholic country, so we have a majority of Catholic schools, it’s obvious Catholics get places first, I don’t know why he’s shocked
2015 Ireland. An absolute disgrace.
Stephen – actually it happened to my children who were refused from both Catholic and church if Ireland schools on the basis they were not baptised. The criteria for the Catholic schools was pretty much as follows: 1. Catholic children from the parish; 2. Catholic children from outside of the parish; 3. Church of Ireland children from the parish; 4. Church of Ireland children from outside of the parish; 5. Children of other faiths; 6. Children of no faith.
I am sorry to burst your bubble, but this state sponsored discrimination is taking place today with my atheist taxes.
my child is not going to get a place before a Muslim in a Muslim school now is he?
@Paul Do people still say “PWNED” nowadays? That’s so 2008. :-)
I’ll give you a reply, where’s the proof? Show me any solid proof only the word of the father. That’s the thing isn’t it, there’s none. If, and it’s a big “if” there’s written proof of the denials, then he maybe has a case, until then as far as I’m concerned it’s the “race card”. I don’t care whether you or anyone else likes that, it’s far too prevalent today in Irish society, and I for one am fed up with it.
Same boat Anthony.. wer supposed to be one of these “progressive modern countires” wer voting on Marraige equality yet we can’t get a child into a school in a local area, I only commented on this the other day looking for an irish speaking school to send my child, like that I was raised Catholic, my husband wasn’t, neither of us practice religion, we don’t go to mass, I believe meself religion is the root of all evil on this planet, personally meself I won’t be a hypocrite, however the 6/7 schools within the locality are all Catholic schools and chances are my child be left to the bottom of the list cause it didn’t have any water put on its head, yet like the rest of the kids who wud be attending it’s class won’t have stepped foot inside a church since the day that water went on its head… parents put their kids into these schools relying on the school to teach them religion I’d say 5% of them practice the religion with Sunday mass as a family, the other 95% are happy to leave it to the school, they won’t attend mass with their child but bring on the communion/confirmation day and it’s a whole different ball game… How are u a part of a church u don’t even attend? Be it with ur kids an family or on ur own? Only showing up on “special occassions” doesn’t make u a Catholic. It suits parents to send kids to a Catholic school cause the religious teaching is done for them there. It’s not a family thing the way it used to be. And that’s exactly what prevents the large majority of the ever growing non religious population now being prevented from educating their kids in good local schools.
Stephen – it happened to my children and I am not hiding behind a veil of anonynimity.
Shane – where are all these Muslim schools? Why not apply and see.
Is it discrimination or freedom of assosiation?
It is the responsibility of the government to provide for schooling needs and not for for faith schools to bend to the prejudices of those that would enforce conformity.
Donna, that’s not entirely correct. Any Catholic Schools which are funded by the local council are open to all faiths, something which should be the case in state funded schools here but isn’t .
The problem here is over subscription there isn’t enough places in the local school to take every child regardless of religion. We need more places in schools but the fact of the matter is this actually only happens in roughly 20% of our schools nationwide where there is a shortage of spaces.
clonskeagh, and northern Dublin Muslim school, there maybe be more, I’m sure there is, , but my son would not get a place before a Muslim simple as that and understandable
Stephen thinks everyone is “hiding” behind a fake profile, more like he didn’t expect most people to completely destroy his stupid argument.
Shane – apply and see. However, they will probably discriminate against you using the same way, which is also wrong. The people arguing on here are not just against Catholic schools, but the fact they control over 90% of schools their discrimination is far more prevalent.
Moronic comment. Do you even understand the concept of an admissions policy? If you don’t sign a register and swear to believe in your fascist bullyboy imaginary friend, and specifically how his ineffable wishes are interpreted by some old man in Rome, you are put at the bottom of the list for a place in most state-funded schools. How is that a ‘race card’ issue?
I’m another parent in the same situation as you Johnny. These racist commentators on this article are truly sickening. I refuse to indoctrinate my children just to get them into a school.
So Stephen, let me get this right. You believe some random post on a Internet forum as plausible, but think this guy’s story is implausible because you don’t have tangible proof?
Hmmmm, maybe in your funny view of the world that makes sense.
Joyce just so you know when a child is baptised nothing actually happens they get a bit of water on the head they don’t suddenly become devout catholics in an instant.
If these were fully private fee paying schools then nobody would care but these are schools that are funded or at the very least heavily subsidised by the state (i.e. the taxpayer). So you have a situation where the children of taxpayers are refused entry to their local school part funded by their parents because of their religion. It’s a disgrace.
Yes Stephen you’re right. The other comments are so full of cr*p cant be bothered to comment. When they get rid of RC schools the loonies will find something else to be offended about.
Breaking news Catholics (90% of population) pay taxes too!!
It’s not racism, it’s sectarianism.
With all due respect, even I know searching months just isn’t good enough. I know of many parents who get a child’s name down before they turn 1 otherwise your not getting a place.
It’s freedom of assosiation Daisy. I know the illiberal liberal homogenists don’t like that. But that’s just bigotry.
Stephen I am a white Irish man born and raised within two miles of four primary schools. We are non religious because we simply have more cop on than that. We have been told that we probably won’t get a place in two of the schools because of this. I cannot see how you think this is a race card, it’s a matter of religious discrimination. Maybe you simply don’t know what your talking bout, im not sure you really get you’re own point
“Catholics (90% of population)”. Wow, not long ago it was 85%. Where do you get your stats?
Nope, paganism is a religion. Atheism isn’t. It’s just a term for being non religious. Wouldn’t expect you to understand such a complicated concept though. Maybe ask the omnipotent supernatural entity they teach you about in state funded schools to explain it to you
That’s the perfect example, well said!
It’s astounding, that in 2015, we are STILL discriminating over religion in this country, and it’s embarrassing and enraging that the Catholic Church still holds so much power here are after everything!
It’s nothing to do with race Stephen, it’s religious bias, pure and simple!
Read the story and knew it wouldn’t take long before some moron made a total fool of himself in the comments section. But Stephen Duggan surpasses that with possibly the most brain dead comment I’ve ever seen in here, and that’s saying something. Whatever school you went to you clearly didn’t get a proper education, you thick moron.
I’d always call out people playing the race card or PC nonsense but this has nothing to do with that. The fact that we are in the year 2015 and people are debating about kids not getting school places because they haven’t been baptised shows how much this country still has to go.
Theo,
Freedom of association is fine IF they were private schools, funded by the church or parents. The fact is, though, that they’re publicly funded schools (staff wages, running costs etc. paid for by the state), which makes your point moot. Anything publicly funded should not discriminate based on religion.
Stephen, you may be right. If it was a white kid maybe it wouldn’t make the news. Although I’ve been interviewed by journalists a number of times, my son’s story has never got this level of coverage. He’s as lily-white as I am and was rejected from a number of schools because they practise exactly this sort of policy.
It is of course the case that non-whites are more likely to be victims of this discrimination, as they’re less likely to be even nominally Catholic, but rest assured, plenty of white Irish people are also being discriminated against.
Atheism is a form of religion ??
Are you honestly joking !
Atheism isn’t a religion, but atheists act like it’s a Fundamentalist one. They evengelize, they think they’re right and everyone else is wrong, they believe they’re the Englightened ones etc.
Of course, not all atheists are like that, but enough to make these traits noticeable.
The state demands that children be handed over every day Chris Judge to be schooled if they are not being home educated. It is therefore the state’s responsibility to fund it and to comply with the ECHR regarding freedom of association. It is not discrimination.
Breaking news! Catholics NOT 90% of the population. All recent reputable polls show this is not the case! Breaking news! Children of Catholic parents a large component of the children in Educate Together schools – not all religious people want religious segregation in schools! Breaking news! Many polls – including by the Iona Institute and the Irish Primary Schools Principals Network – show a majority of Irish citizens want non-religious patrons for their children’s schools!
Nobody is asking for atheist schools. Nobody.
Yes, I was brought up by Catholics, I’m aware of this. What actually happens is that this belief that Ireland is still a Catholic country is propagated, hence the misguided belief that we need Catholic schools. A lot of parents christen their kids because they think it’s just what’s done. There’s no true belief behind it in a lot of cases.
Look up any admissions policy you want. Many ask for a baptismal cert on enrolment. No baptismal policy, no make on the list. There’s your proof, in the public documentation
True. But you have other choices. You have many schools to choose from. The Muslim school isn’t the only school in your community, like the catholic school is the only school in the community for many, especially in rural areas.
He was told he would go to the bottom of the list again for the following year, since his daughter is not baptised. This movement is made up of many parents who put their children’s names down before age 1 but still could not get a place because their children were bottom of the priorities list of every school within five miles of where they lived. That is not fair in a fully state-funded education system.
Theo, in what other 100% state-funded public service do you also want hegemony and the service to put unbaptised children at the bottom of the list? Do you want ‘freedom of association’ with Catholics only in hospitals, universities, libraries – what about the National Maternity Hospital? The Archbishop is the patron of it, even though the whole shebang is 100% funded and managed by the state. Perhaps you would like unborn babies who are not going to be baptised to go to the bottom of the list there too? Do tell us so we can arrange it for you.
Theo, the state demands that non-religious children also be educated by law. Where are our children to go? Are you really talking about THIS when you say that Catholic children having to mix with non-Catholic children in our state education system goes against their right to ‘freedom of association’???!!! Seriously?
“Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects the right to freedom of assembly and association, including the right to form trade unions, subject to certain restrictions that are “in accordance with law” and “necessary in a democratic society”
Stephen..I hardly believe this needs clarifying, but no, atheism is not a form of religion.
Surely education is the business of the state and religion should be the private business of individuals and their church.
Poor Stephen took one hell of a beating
Deservedly so for someone stupid enough to claim that atheism is a form of religion!
Moron!
Fair point , lobbying the government for some educate together schools would deal with the ever increasing number of “no-religion families”. I do feel it’s not the schools fault, they are catholic schools , they were built as Catholic
institutions many years ago before the no-religion famies were few and far between
I can’t work out if Stephen is more stupid than he he is racist, or more racist than he is stupid.
@Stephen Duggar You don’t understand the issue at all. And you definitely don’t understand what atheism is. Can’t you even read the article?
If they don’t like the education system in Ireland, why don’t they go back to India?
A little more than a year since Narendra Modi’s right-wing Hindu nationalist BJP swept to power in India, there are fears that religiously motivated violence may be on the rise. Some say the BJP has bred a culture of intolerance towards minorities that has left even Hindus nervous of speaking out.
Just before Christmas the church of St Sebastian in Delhi was gutted by fire – one of five churches in the capital to have been attacked in the past year.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33241100
Here we go again, importing problems!
Shane, Muslim schools in Ireland are not government funded.
Government funded schools should not be allowed pick and choose based on the religion of those in power, regardless of that religion.
@Aoife, Muslim Irish schools are government funded actually.
This “baptised children” first setup really grinds my gears. Schools are funded by the department of education, paid for with everybody’s taxes so everybody should have equal access. And this crap that the schools are owned by the Catholic Church, if there was any law at all in the country all the Catholic Churches property, funds, assets, everything should have been confiscated years ago to make up for all the divilment they were up to
Even though my children do go to a Catholic school in the same way I did myself and I don’t really agree with it. We did baptises the children so they could go there as it a brilliant school. As it turn out we probably didn’t need to as there’s a few kids there from other religions. However if a school is over subscribed what criteria do you apply to who get in and who doesn’t. Whatever criteria is applied and the school is over subscribed someone will loose out. Will they be marching then? i recon the problem is lack of planning.
How about vicinity to the school? Would you find it acceptable if kids with the whitest skin got in first, or the reddest hair? Perhaps we could go on how much money their parents earn or why not alphabetically. Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up.
The problem here is over subscription there isn’t enough places in the local school to take every child regardless of religion. We need more places in schools but the fact of the matter is this actually only happens in roughly 20% of our schools nationwide where there is a shortage of spaces
The problem is discrimination, simple. It is about the church getting to indoctrinate kids from a very young age, the places argument is a related, but separate issue. Hospitals are overcrowded, but should they treat Catholics before other faiths? Deliver babies of Catholic mothers before Jewish mothers?
This actually isn’t a big problem as I pointed out it effects approximately 20% of schools that have a shortage of places mostly in south Dublin. When schools are over subscribed then somebodys child has to miss out on a spot and it wouldnt make sense for a Hindu to get a spot in a Catholic school ahead of a local Catholic kid. If someone’s kid has to lose out they’re going to have to be rejected on some grounds whether it’s religion, height, weight, proximity to school so either way someone loses. The problem here is not enough school places as opposed to religion.
yes, the problem is oversubscription (and possibly a hint of desperation due to dwindling membership numbers in the SVC, but that’s just speculation). the solution must never be discrimination based on faith. considering the history of discrimination against Catholics in Ireland I find it shocking how many people defend it nownow.
SVC autocorrect from RCC
Paul.. There was a guy on Prime Time this week singing the same tune as you are and he was put in his place fairly sharp. There is no one forcing anyone to get baptised/Holy Communion/sit through Religion class for an education. Your child can opt out of these classes. Besides, have you seen the Religion books? It’s more about caring, sharing, love and respect.
Paul majority of those things are not discrimination. It has to be one of the 9 in the discrimination act.
Call it by what it is. Sectarianism.
Sinead – ah there you are, the biggest hypocrite on this site. You mean Paddy Monohan, the man who was supported by a poll and the end of the show with over 70% in favour of his argument? Yep, put in his place indeed.
Ha Paul the most loaded poll question in the history of the show and that’s saying something.
Paul.. Maybe you could do with a religion class yourself and learn a bit of respect.. Mr Monohan failed miserably and you know it..
Sinead….you do need religion to have respect.
@Wrath – Yes – and one of the reasons there is a shortage of school spaces is to accommodate the offspring of ILLEGAL immigrants – who are not entitled to be in the country in the first place.
Damn Autocorrect …you don’t need religion to have respect
The problem is not oversubsrciption. Come September, all the children have a place in some school. The problem is that the selection criteria discriminate unfairly. Using criteria such as age or location is fair. Using race or religion is not. This should really be obvious.
Sorry Derek you’re incorrect I am afraid. As I’ve pointed out twice now this is only an issue in 20% of our schools (mostly south Dublin). When there is enough places in schools they accept people of all religions and none, when there is a shortage of spaces somebody has to lose out and it makes sense that Catholic children be given priority in a Catholic school. You just want to swap the religion criterion for a different one such as age or how lucky someone is to live nearer the school.
@Derek, it’s obvious to people who are discriminated against – kids who aren’t members of the right religious club.
Most (all?) catholics who benefit from keeping non-members out don’t seem able to see that this amounts to sectarian discrimination.
Like I’ve said we need more schools and more school choice no doubt about it. The church have tried divesting schools but there has been resistance from parents in schools they’ve tried to hand over to Educate Together furthermore when they’ve offered schools for divestment Educate Together have thrown hissy fits and said no “We want that one”, they want to cherry pick what schools they get.
Wrath of Cheney: Yes, I want to swap an unfair selection criterion for a fair one. There’s no such thing as a Catholic child, only a child of Catholics, and it doesn’t make sense for them to be given priority in a state-funded school.
Sinead is right , your child can opt out of religion in school so this notion that kids are forced into learning religion , making their holy communion is a load of crap . the kids are not being forced into anything at all .
@sinead, have you seen the Harry Potter books?
Suzie, opting out does not remove the child from the classroom. The school is not obliged to provide supervision so the child is still exposed. Also, opting out isolates the child which can lead to bullying.
Because Catholic schools run an integrated curriculum, the other subjects are also deliberately infused with Catholic teaching, and it is not possible to opt out of this.
That’s okay Derek, let secularists set up their own schools or have the state provide them. The state or secularists however, have no right to discriminate against religious families by imposing secularist schooling on them and denying their right to freedom of association.
Theo…I believe it’s the job of the parents along with their church to educate their own kids about religion…..not the school system.
But they have a protected right to have their children schooled with those of the same faith and the state has a duty to fund it. It’s not really about opinion, it’s about fact.
Theo, you seem to be very confused about what freedom of association involves. You are free to associate with whomsoever you wish, and in the unlikely event that someone wishes to associate with you, they too are free to do so. You can join or set up more or less any club you like and have whatever rules for entry you can imagine. I would defend your rights in this regard unequivocally.
What you seem to want is an extra right – one that doesn’t apply to everyone, just people in your club – to a special state endorsement whereby members of your club have not only the right to an education that all children should have, but a special rule whereby your children are also taught the rules of your club by the state, and take part in club activities funded by the state. You want this even at the expense of a much more basic right – the right of other people not to have someone else’s club rules imposed on them.
What secularists are seeking is true freedom of association. You are free to join any club you want. We are free to join different clubs or none at all. All our children have the same right to an education regardless.
They have the right not to have the club rules imposed on them. Don’t join the club. But you can’t force the club to abandon its rules. If you want a club with different rules, set one up.
The problem is not over subscription, it is the excuse. Essentially. They will take the kids who aren’t baptised to get the capitation grant if they don’t have a better offer. It doesn’t address the crux which is, if they had the choice of a baptised child or an unbaptised child, the baptised child will get the spot, as per their admissions policies. If we had a system where catholic schools weren’t the only option for some, that would be fair enough, but in a country where the catholic school is the only option in the area, it’s inexcusable
Actually untrue. Opting out means supervision outside the classroom which a school will have to pay for. I have no problem with my unbaptised children taking part in religion classes, it’s an education, but I have a serious problem with being told I have to baptise them to get them on the list for the school in the first place, as I was. And no I’m not Muslim or foreign.
Derek, if that’s the case that should be a good enough reason not to sent your child to a catholic school. It’s mainly lapsed Catholics who are so against catholic schools. Other religions are more tolerant.
Why do lapsed Catholics want to send their children to a catholic school?
When the migrants arrive with their large broods ye might not be all that happy with the demands they will make for Muslim schools and Muslimy things.
Betsy – your argument is mute on two points. 1. For atheists like me Islam is no more offensive an education for my child than Catholicism, to me both are complete nonsense. 2 most atheists in Ireland are lapsed Catholics, because they were indoctrinated in the very schools that there parents put them into, the very same schools that you need to be baptised to enter today. You may not have noticed, but most people in Ireland had absolutely no choice, but to become Catholics.
Any sectarianism in India?
LOL!
We have to face the fact that this is the legacy of years of underfunding of schools by the Government. In the past the religious orders did provide amazing free schools for generations. Our Government was perfectly happy to go with the flow. Now as the orders are aging and beginning the process of handing over schools, the various orders are anxious to continue ethos that they were run by in the past. I think that this is totally understandable from their point of view. I feel this is transitional and is fast disappearing. However, until the Government bites the bullet and funds the schools they will not be able to set the rules.
I have great sympathy for any parent who cannot get a place near their home for their child. However, in my rural area many children travel 30mins and longer to get to school.
At the moment and until Government funding is provided to 100% fund schools then the reality is those who run the schools are entitled to run those schools following their own ethos.
You say that’s a bad thing! 30 mins is nothing to travel is any country in the world. We need bigger, better funded, better equipped schools in less areas.
Dave, first of all the schools are fully funded by the government. Second point, imagine, living in rural Ireland as I do, if that school that was a half an hour away from you was over subscribed and they wouldn’t let your kids in because you haven’t baptised them. The reason why i haven’t baptised my kids is because I have tried not to be hypocritical.
“They did provide amazing free schools”..of course they did with a captive audience from 4 years old through to 12 years old to brainwash with religious mumbo jumbo. If you tell a child the sky is pink often enough they will believe it. Free schooling yes but free victims to mould would be payment enough. Todays generation are being put through the same rituals, baptisms, communion, confirmations for just this reason access to schooling. Why put your child through all these things if you dont have the courage in your convictions to go to mass every Sunday etc. Schools should be secular..religion is for teaching in the home and when the child is old enough to understand the concept not when they are young enough to be manipulated into believing in something they clearly dont grasp.
Face the fact this is the legacy of mass-immigration, the resources of this country opened up to the world. I would like to know how this man go to Ireland, why he was allowed stay and get citizenship?
Maybe unlike you he is fooking useful…
Eire,
You’re sick, to be honest. Why do you think you have a right to know that? He is an Irish citizen, and he works and pays taxes here so his child is just as deserving of a place in school as any other Irish citizen.
This is an issue that faces all irish citizens, and with the fall in ‘popularity’ (power, control, etc.) of the Catholic Church, it will just get worse as less and less people will want to baptise their children just for a place in the school.
Yea you’re right, no country has a right to know who is coming into their country. No country has a right to protect their native people or resources, truly a sick idea.
I’d say he probably got here by plane ÉireBlood.
Any particular reason that he should not be ‘allowed stay and get citizenship’??
The country should know how they came into the country, I agree. I was saying you, personally, have no such right.
We do already 100% fund all those schools – the only additional money comes from parental fund-raising, which is something every school of any kind has to do in this country. The state funds every single aspect of the existing religious schools, including maintenance, refurbishment, extensions and re-building of the buildings. The state provides the curriculum, curriculum supports, materials, guidelines, monitoring, inspections, teachers, equipment. The church pays for nothing whatsoever – they even charge a fee for the management of the religious ethos aspect – does that fee come out of funding the school gets from the state too?
The reality is that these are state-funded schools, and that they are contracted by the state, and funded, to deliver the state education curriculum to citizens – not just to do what they wish. So long as nearly 100% of our fully state-funded schools are controlled by religious orders and at the same time the evidence shows a majority of Irish citizens want an alternative choice, those schools must – as part of those state contracts they are so fortunate to have been awarded – deliver this vital state service to all citizens equally. If they want to stray from this contract to deliver the state education system, then they must fund themselves. Other groups (like Steiner) who do not contract with the state to provide the state curriculum do not get state funding – they do not want to compromise their own ethos – they are doing their own thing – fair play to them, but they do not get state funding.
EireBlood, my husband is English – he also lives here and works and pays taxes – would you also chuck him out? He’s not brown if that helps you decide. Would you just close all borders and have nobody from another country allowed to live in any country?
Does pay taxes ?? Fact is fact … It’s a catholic school ! Go to India and they are all segregated … Hindus , Buddhist , Christian , Muslim ! So my attitude is this , you came to this country , accept the rules .. Can’t get a school for Hindu nearby then move to an area with one !!
All these PC brigades who’ve never travelled to these counties see the biased they have amongst themselves !
He does not want a Hindu school. He is a citizen and a taxpayer and wants access to ANY school for his daughter. Why is that wrong? Would you like the huge number of Irish citizens living for decades in other countries, working and paying taxes, raising families, to be treated like second-class citizens and not allowed to give an opinion about anything in the country they call home? I don’t care what they do in India. The fact is that he is just one in a movement of very many Irish born parents who also want to see an end to this unfair discrimination in 100% state-funded schools.
Exactly David, why do you compare this country to India. What do you know about India?.I remember when all Japanese were considered shit. Now we love to drive their cars and have them as tourists. We thought that Chinese could only cook take-aways and now we walk around delighted to use their mobiles and hope they will be tourists. They will probably be our employers eventually and we will kiss their asses, as we did ( yes we did for the British for hundreds of years, most of us anyway) for a job for our kids. They will be Buddihsts ( I think ) or something and we will be educated enough to welcome them into our schools, as our kids would be in other countries, if we emigrated, without the religious b.s. They come here, because we boast about our democracy, especially in India, where De Valera and James Connolly are regarded as heroes and they expect democracy, therefore deserve it. I remember feeling very Irish when I first went to England and there was prejudice. Now I go back there fairly often and the feeling is gone, but so is the prejudice, because a lot of Irish people worked hard at removing it, and got a positive response. It’s a two way street nowadays and time we got rid of our hang-ups.
You can kiss Japanese, Chinese and British arse all you like. Don’t try bring the rest of us who have a bit of national pride into it
You sound like a right arse kisser alright Dirk. And there are probably too many like you around.
Who is funding the massive social media paid advertising campaigns?
I met this man the other week on route to DSN Sunday & met with his march on the way & I have to say it looked like the U.N & of all sects of faith & none & certainly would have my support !
Now where have I heard that media shite before?… hmmmn…. oh yeah
I was on the march and I can 100% assure you that it is a large grassroots movement of parents with no political affiliation whatsoever.
Fair play to this lad standing up. There is laws in place to stop adults being discriminated against in the workplace or everyday life based on religion, so why is it ok to discriminate against a child based on theirs or lack of one? Preference of places should be given based on early enrollment and being within a catchment area. It has nothing to do with race as ridiculously suggested, this has been raised by indigenous people more and more of late. People need to stop baptizing their children unless the bible is what they really believe in and are not just doing it because they were, to get their child into school or for a day out. Anyway what’s wrong with letting them decide for themselves when they are adults?
@ Evan. It’s not discrimination it’s the school policy. “letting them decide for themselves ” Why feed them or dress them or do anything so? it’s called parenting !! We make choices for our kids and if they want to make different choices as adults then that’s their choice.
It absolutely is discrimination to have a policy that gives a child an advantage over another based on its religious beliefs. It’s effectively pressuring people into baptizing their children to give them an advantage over another. It’s discriminating against parents who’s taxes go to funding these schools. That is not called parenting. That is instilling your beliefs if you have them, but more often than not it’s just people doing it because every body else is. That’s being an idiot.
“Its not discrimination, its the school policy”
Errrr, its a discriminatory school policy.
Evan, I read this story in the Independent at the time. The reason his daughter didn’t get into the local schools was because he actually left it too late to apply. He was told that her name would go on the waiting list but as the school was already full and the waiting list extremely long, that there were was little chance she would receive a place. This happens to children from all nationalities and religions on a daily basis. It’s only news because this guy is trying to say that the reason she lost out was because of her religion. Utter nonsense! Every classroom in the country is full to capacity (some have high student/teacher ratios). The fact is, more schools are needed and needed yesterday. And maybe when they are built, more can awarded Educate Together patronage.
It absolutely is not discrimination to expect children who want to attend a Catholic school to be catholic.
Evan what don’t you head off and try enroll a Catholic child in a Muslim school or a Hindu school and see how long freedom of religious expression would last in their countries
Or even the muslim school in Clonskeagh…? It WON’T be allowed. Im sick at how we bend over backwards for these people when the same is not reciprocated
No it’s called indoctrination. Deciding what your child led eats or wears is a choice, but indoctrinating them into an organisation with a sustained history of raping and killing children is different. Why do you get to decide how other people’s children are educated?
Andrea – so he was not discriminated against! There is no religious discrimination for entry into Irish schools? Seriously, what about all the other parents with exactly the same story as him, did they just apply to late too and then used the actual existing discriminatory criteria as an excuse. Get real, it exists and it is prevalent.
So Avina, in a democracy, would you make freedom of assosiation a criminal offence?
@Garwig – ‘these people’ being tax-paying Irish citizens yeah? Do you think every one should babtise their child into the Catholic faith even if they have no belief, and perhaps are like me, and are disgusted by the idea of joining an organisation who stood by while their members abused and mistreated women and children for decades.
I want my children to be reared as catholics with my values. I’m a tax payer and I don’t want them to be exposed to these Religions which will not tolerate them in Their countries. So if they don’t like it here they can leave. The Catholic Church has bad eggs but the good they have done outweighs the bad. Start your Rant hear………
Well that should be covered in the article if that’s the case Andrea and it’s disingenuous of him if he’s saying religion was the predominant factor in their case if he just didn’t enrol in time. However I’m glad the issue is being highlighted more. The policy in our local school is baptized children first then a waiting list for others. So if a non baptized child is on the waiting list from birth they can be leapfrogged by another who enrolled later just on account of them being christened, which is hard to argue as not being discriminatory. Religion and mainstream education need to be separated.
Paul, how many immigrant children live in Ireland now? Tens if not hundreds of thousands at this stage. And somehow they all manage to go to school even though the RCC has patronage over the vast majority. This would only be news if his daughter was refused a place in the local schools even though he had her name down on time. I agree with you that more schools should be non/multi denominational and that all parents should have the opportunity to send their children to a school that suits their wishes. My point is that this story is not the one to get all worked up about because this man simply left it too late to apply. Trying to use his religion as the reason after the fact is pathetic.
So basically you want them raised Catholic but not exposed to Catholicism.
@kate. Why does he want his daughter to attend a Catholic school? Abuse happened and is still happening in many religions around the world. Being catholic or baptising children does not mean we are condoning what the church has done in the past.
I agree with you on that Evan, parents should have the opportunity to send their children to schools without a religious ethos if that is their wish. I was very surprised to see Ruairi Quinn award the RCC patronage over so many new schools contrary to the wishes of the electorate in certain areas. The problem is not going anywhere so long as parents are fighting over a decreasing amount of school places. The population is increasing and the problem is only going to get worse. More schools are needed and more need to be under different patronage.
He’ll be putting in a claim , next .wait for it
That doesn’t make it ok that I can’t, nor would I want to. Though I like countless others would like to be able to enrol my child in a school in my own area, in my own country,paid for with my own taxes without being blackmailed into baptizing my son to do so. Do we really want separate schools for Catholics, Protestants, Muslims Hindus etc, would an integrated society where all are educated together and religion is taught extra curricular not make more sense.
Then do it in your own time. Indoctrination shouldn’t be part of the education system
That’s what Educate Together schools do (as far as I know). I only know one family who attended our local ET school but I know the children received their religious instruction after school.
Andrea – oh dear, many of the children are not immigrants, mine are not for example, but not sure why that matters to you. They may all go to schools, but they are have no a religion forced upon them and they are also being discriminated against because they are not Catholic and that is just wrong. You may want to teach your children about a man who they nailed to a cross, stuck a crown of thorns on him, spat at him, stoned him and then stuck a spike in him for good measure, but many of us prefer to teach them Roald Dahl or Julia Donaldson but we do that at home, exactly where religion and its hateful stories should be taught.
@Theo.
Wtf?? Where did that come from?
Catholic schools should be allowed to decide their admissions but you would deny them that because you see it as discriminatory Avina. So you wish to impose your view on those schools and deny freedom of assosiation.
Or am I wrong Avina, and you would defend their right to free assosiation?
@ Donna Moss Just because it’s “school policy” doesn’t mean it’s not discrimination. I could set up a company and have a “company policy” to only hire whites, or Dubliners, or whatever. Still discrimination. And the other posters are right – these schools are not private, they are funded by general taxation. So they should not be permitted to have discriminatory entry criteria. First come, first served is fine, as long as the non-Catholics don’t keep getting pushed to the bottom of the list.
Theo, I would absolutely defend their right to free association if these were private schools completely independent from the state and taxpayer funding. But they’re not. I think most of us have seen the disasters that can happen when the church is given the power to interfere with the affairs of the state, and the education system is one of the last vestiges of that antiquated system. The sooner complete separation of church and state is achieved the better.
@zonker. It’s not discrimination imo. everything comes down to discrimination now and everyone is all PC. Should tax payers children get first preference seeing as they are funding the schools? Should private insurers get preference over public patients? We can call discrimination on many things but not all are true.
Donna it is descrimination if a state funded organisation promotes one religion over all others.
Garwig. If you want a school that teaches YOUR beliefs to children then pay for it YOURSELF. You can’t take everyone’s tax money and use it to fund your favourite brand of discrimination.
Evan, the man in question asked if he could wait for his daughter to start the following year, and was told that even by delaying for a year she would still be at the bottom of the list for the local school as she is not Catholic — this was in a different interview with him. So that’s exactly what happened :-(
@ Garwig Well said, we are just at the crossover point now in Ireland. like the U.K., you will see the Irish government now funding the start of many Muslim only schools.
Dublin will reflect what it is like in Bradford at present , everybody happy!
I do pay for it, it’s our country and culture if you don’t like it Tipp along now
Choice??? If you don’t like Catholic education, don’t have one!!!
But the problem you have there is that the state demands that children be “educated” and if you don’t home school it demands that you turn them over every day so that they can be schooled.
Are you saying then that the state has the right to deny those parent to have their children schooled with people that share their values, i.e. freedom of association as guaranteed under ECHR.
If the state forces parents to have their offspring schooled it must pick up the tab and also comply with the provision of the ECHR.
To Avina.
Bingo Theo! The state has a responsibility to provide education and it uses taxpayers money to do it. It shouldn’t exhibit favouritism to any one group of people over another, large or small, religious or otherwise. All citizens should be treated equally.
That’s okay Avina. Let the state provide secular schools and not deny families of faith their protected right.
Theo….you keep mentioning the right to freedom of association. The only circumstance where this can be denied is if a criminal offence is committed and by this association it gives you access to other targets or victims.. Did I dream all this child abuse and cover ups by the church over the last forty years or did it actually happen. I am open to correction but surely that means the church should not be running our schools.
” I am open to correction but surely that means the church should not be running our schools.”
Stand corrected.
You are indulging in cheap anti-Catholicism based on the actions of individuals.
That’s precisely my point Theo – state-funded schools should be secular. If a parent wants their child to be educated in catholicism (to the exclusion of others) let them pay for it themselves.
They can be Avina but not necessarily, the state has a duty to fund faith school. Otherwise it is discrimination.
If it wants secular schools the state casn provide them but it cannot demand that faith school become secular.
Roopesh is not Muslim. This campaign is nearly 100% Irish born and bred parents.
You are correct in saying that it was an act committed by a few individuals, but it was the leaders of the churches, I would even say right to the Vatican that concealed these awful crimes. That is not anti-Catholicism, that is fact.
Avina, The Schools are not wholly state-funded. A lot of school’s stand on church owned land and in some cases they probably own the buildings too…It might cost ya! Besides this I think I made valid points about what the government is proposing. I don’t think religion is imposed on anyone in schools…parents are free to opt out. I think generally children are accepted based on past pupils first (which I support) and next is first come first served. It sounds like the parents in this article were very late getting around to applying and were told the schools were full. Perhaps some schools follow an ethos rule regarding over-subscription but I’d say very very few. I’m not swallowing the story of being told to convert…it sounds like rubbish!
Sinead – so you now support choice! A bit like abortions really if you don’t want one dont have one, but then again you did whilst telling everyone else they cannot.
If she got the first school her parents wanted then they would want to change how she was taught!! No religion. either way her father wants to change the schools to suit his thinking.
1. He doesn’t want to change the school, he just wants a place for his daughter. And if his daughter is of no/different religion that should be catered for in a publicly funded school.
2. If the publicly funded schools have discriminatory policies then they should 100% change. This is obvious.
If you want a school that specialises in your choice of religion and instructs children in that manner then pay for it yourself. The church can’t have their cake and eat it. Either they take Government funding and cater for the children of ALL taxpayers equally or they go it alone – in which case they can teach anything they want. I wish them the best of luck.
The fact that the tax money of non-Catholics is used to fund schools where non-Catholic children have a lower preference makes me furious. It’s a disgusting practice that has no place in a 21st century Republic. The only reason you’re happy to let it continue is because it doesn’t affect you. Selfish, small-minded moron.
And why not? Imagine if you had to pay to have your child indoctrinated into someone else’s religion. Would you be happy with that? Do you think you should have to change countries or religions to fix it? Or would you feel entitled to point out that it’s wrong, always and everywhere, for the state to endorse a particular set of religious beliefs.
Jumping on the religious band wagon when the main problem is that they left it too late to apply for these schools, if it was some 20yr old Finglas native that left it to late and pulled the religious card I bet you it wouldn’t make any head lines what so ever!
Wrong. The fact is that all Irish citizens have an equal right to access schools, except for unbaptised children. All the Irish parents I know who have been unable to get a primary school place for their child within a five-mile radius had their children’s names down from a very young age (if they had to wait until the child was aged 2, they were there the next day putting their name down). The fact is that a child from another area who applied after you would have more of a right to a place than your child to their local school if your child is unbaptised. Organisations that get 100% state funding to deliver a vital state service (every child has a right to an education in this country) should not be allowed to discriminate in this way. You will be aware I guess that the majority of people this affects are Irish born and bred.
This man came here from India knowing that the catholic ethos exists so what did he expect, and this is thin end of the wedge stuff, wait till we get flodded with the Muslims that are being invited in.
Maybe he expected a modern EU country to operate a fair and equitable education system, rather than an indoctrination machine. Who knows, people have such strange ideas.
Denis, my son was born in this country as was I. As were all my parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. Should I have to be put up with this sort of discrimination? Where am I supposed to go?
It’s pretty clear there’s a racist aspect to people’s responses here.
The idiots seem to equate being Irish with being Catholic so can’t seem to see the problem.
Oh and if you’re not Catholic, just go back to your own country. It’s a one-size-fits-all solution to any issue involving someone who’s not white and Irish. A catchphrase for the racist.
He is not Muslim. Ireland does NOT have a Catholic ethos – we are a secular republic, like most other modern European countries – the difference is that other European countries do not have a state education system nearly 100% controlled by one religious organisation – no matter how Catholic those other European countries are perceived to be. Ireland is no longer a Catholic country anyway – a majority in polls say not practising, a third of marriages NOT in church (so unlikely they will want their children brought up as Catholics!), and a majority of citizens saying they would prefer non-religious owned schools! So I can see Catholics being a minority in this country and how would you then feel if nearly 100% of state schools were multi-denominational and put Catholic children at the bottom of their admissions list? Luckily they do not, and most multi-d schools have a fair proportion of children of Catholic parents – they do not discriminate.
Indeed Carl, nasty racism here – let’s hope the very many Irish citizens who have settled in other countries do not face similar racism, discrimination and hatred as they go about their lives with their families.
Very similar to the anti- Catholic rubbish you write.
Did they know nothing about Ireland before they moved here and after they lived here? They moved to the most populated area of the country where it was well know there is a shortage of school places.
Did they not look for a Hindu school for their daughter? As a family they had zero research into education until their daughter was just about to go to school. That sounds casual to me.
They sound SHOCKED to learn how the Irish education system is organised in a way that suits them and NOW they want marches??
You are completely WRONG Siobhan. I’ve been working in Ireland for 10 years. I have no children. and I didn’t know about this until now. Do you mean, I have to move out of Ireland for my children’s future ?
Would not change the way you live to suit the place you choose to live or have the place you live to change to suit you Furkan?
Something about Rome comes to mind.
Firstly, there are no Hindu schools in Ireland. Secondly, any of the Hindu parents I know here in London tend to favour two things – OFSTED Outstanding and proximity to home. They will send their children to any school that fulfils those criteria above what the religion associated with the school is. Why continue to put up with an unfair system regardless of where you are? I vote Labour here because I can’t stand what the Tories are doing, why just roll over and accept the negative aspects?
Not surprised that something about Rome comes to mind ;-)
Roopesh is, of course, one in a number of many Irish citizens who want change – there are getting up to 18,000 signatures on Paddy Monahan’s petition – nearly all of them Irish citizens. We know also that the Archbishop has agreed that divestment must take place (he has recognised that this will be about half of Catholic schools) and the handing over of buildings. The fact is that a majority of Irish citizens also want this change. It’s not Roopesh that is in the minority!
This man was treated abominably, the Catholic Church act like despots and the government let them get away with it. It is wrong especially since taxpayers money funds the schools and allows them to act this way.
Not strictly true. The Government only partly funds schools. Many many schools were built on church lands and in no case that I know of have the religious orders been paid for the land or buildings. It is normal that the various orders have or are handing over, what is legally theirs, totally free to the state. I my own school , which is over 100 years old the Department of Education do not want ownership of the buildings as they are in serious need of repair.
Dave – what state schools are only part funded by he state? Let’s not forget how much money the religious orders owe the state for raping children, monies we are still waiting for. How do you think many of these religious orders came to own so much property?
The problem here is over subscription there isn’t enough places in the local school to take every child regardless of religion. We need more places in schools but the fact of the matter is this actually only happens in roughly 20% of our schools nationwide where there is a shortage of spaces..
You are under severe illusion if you imagine that the Government fund schools properly. I have taught for over 30 years in a Secondary School run by a religious order. The funds received under capitation and work schemes has never funded the full costs of running the schools. The land and buildings in my own school were purchased by the religious order from their own funds. The resulting buildings were modified and rebuilt from the orders funds and with a small % coming from Government. I am an atheist but I will not entertain the sweeping statements you made. The order I have worked with have NEVER been implicated in any wrongdoing. It is irresponsible to suggest that this is the case.
I have been on various parent groups trying to fundraise for various projects over the years. The reason , is because the Government does not fund properly the schools. The land and buildings owned by my school were donated to them over 120 years ago by various landowners and subsequent pieces of land were bought to facilitate expansion in the school.
Dave – see now you are changing your argument, the church organisations give no monies to the schools, but seek to remain in control of them. The schools are funded by the state and by voluntary contributions, no monies come from the church organisations.
Dave, many schools have a similar story. The land was donated to the religious order because religious orders were expected to run the schools. If the state had been running schools, the land would have been donated or sold to the state. Even though, the vast majority of building and maintenance work and all salaries are paid by the state, the land remains the property of religious orders. This is a major problem with no easy solution.
What many orders have done is to transfer the ownership to a separate trust. The reason for this is not to end discrimination but to avoid losing the property in abuse lawsuits.
Schools 100% funded by state and parental donations – NOTHING comes from the church. The state has invested billions in maintaining, refurbishing and in very many cases completely re-building all the school buildings in the land, while they remain afterwards the assets of the private religious organisation. That is a bit of a windfall for the church surely – and all the more reason why the Archbishop has agreed that half of Catholic schools should be divested and buildings handed over to the state that we all very much have a financial stake in.
The fact is that if people like Roopish stood up to the governments in their own countries they way they stand up to ours they might not have emigrate. According to recent research 4% of children never start primary school and 58% don’t complete it. There is a lesson here for us here though, we should stand up for our rights too. Perhaps people who are having similar problems should march with Foolish.
Apologies for not checking the predictive text or spotting what some may imply a Freudian slip. The final word of my comment should of course have been Poolish
I have just one question I go to live in India I am a Catholic do I get a place in there Hindu system before one of there’s its a fair question ?
Please move to India and let us know how you get on, fair request!
I have read most of your replies and it seems your views on religion cost your kids a place in the school system we all followed our parents on religion and when we got old enough we made up our own mind I think it’s you should move to India leave the kids because they did nothing wrong it was their father I don’t have to move anywhere my kids are all grown up and we’ll educated in Catholic schools .I would not deny them that and have all gone different ways as far as religion is concerned
Donal – you did not “follow” your parents into religion it was forced upon you, you were indoctrinated and conditioned to suggest you followed is romantic nonsense. Now off to India with you and don’t forget to write to let us all know how the school admission policies go for you. Given they stone and kill some atheists in those countries your indoctrination will serve you well as long as your father was a Muslim or Hindu, and I hope you move to the parts where yours are dominant; I would not want your fathers choices adversely impacting on you now would we. Bon voyage.
Paul your reply was so childish and weak ,you should stop burying your head in the sand sit down study all your replays and learn from them it’s ok to be wrong everybody makes mistakes. Paul I wish you any your family the best .
Wouldn’t it be great if the whole religion thing was real
It would be quite the nightmare if it was. By the way, which religion did you have in mind?
Mormon
I’d prefer not to live in a cosmic dictatorship run by a psychopath.
A predictable response I suppose from those who want to be shocked and wait for the next story to start tut-tutting.
The man DID have a school it just wasn’t as close as he wanted. That’s life in Ireland so get over it. Try living in the country an moving house where you have to join a long list to get into any school!
Like it or not the Catholic church OWN most of the buildings and until the State decides to fully fund an alternative it won’t change.
…I suppose Shatter didn’t explain that at the “citizenship” gig.
Now about those buildings! Our parents paid for all of them – the people own them. The state has been maintaining, refurbishing and often completely re-building these schools for decades – to the tune of billions – while they remain the assets of the religious orders, who have now put them beyond reach in trusts. What a windfall for those organisations!
A number of these orders owe the state a total of over one billion in money they said they would pay as their share of compensation to victims of abuse by their organisations. They have not paid this. Is it not right then that the divestment and handing over of some of these buildings for the kind of schools that reputable polls show more than half of Irish citizens now want??? The Archbishop certainly seems to think so since he thinks half of Catholic schools should be divested. It’s just that the progress is non-existent, so in this situation where so many citizens have NO choice in our state-funded education system they deserve not to be bottom of the pile when it comes to access to OUR state-funded education system. In areas where there is an over-supply of religious schools, the state should really stop funding schools that cannot deliver an inclusive education system and divert that funding to organisations who can. That would be a morally right course of action.
To Conor Sheils author of the above item and others commenting that these schools are funded by the tax payers, may I gently remind you that Catholic parents who are the vast majority in almost all the schools under discussion are tax payers! Ruari Quinn as Minister for education arranged a nationwide survey of Primary school parents as to their wishes on Patrons and a majority came back stating that they are quite happy to retain the status quo.
The Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin has readily agreed that where a substantial number of pupils are no longer Catholic in any given school that the Patronage be surrendered. As to the assertion that someone in the Diocesan Headquarters would glibly suggest that Mr. Panicker should have his child baptised is simply not credible.
The immediate catchment area and availability of other close by national schools as well as being baptised or not are all in the mix when enrolment policies are being put in place. To the best of my knowledge there is no deliberate policy of discrimination involved in our schools.
Vast majority? Let’s see them in mass on the weekend John. The facts don’t lie and neither do the regularity of humanist wedding’s. Most people in Ireland don’t identify with the faith they play by these archaic rules to get kids into school and bury their dead. All the while paying for this whole charade via taxes.its state sponsored discrimination and it wouldn’t go on in the workplace so why does it go on in schools. The church owes hundreds of millions to the state for the abuse it caused to Irish children or decades including murder. Lands and assets should have been stripped off it rather than a hush hush deal that saw the tax payer pick up the tab. Majority! Me hole.
You mean the deal negotiated by a catholic minister, with catholic public servants with their own catholic church??? That deal?
On top of what scoop delivery said, even if the majority *are* Catholics that still doesn’t justify this discriminatory practice.
“Oh this hospital is a whites-first hospital. We’ll have to see to you last because you’re black. But it’s ok because most people are white.”
If you study the local polls you will see that often nearly 50%, and sometimes more, of parents in an area wanted to see a choice of school with an alternative patron. What are those citizens – nothing? And yet we still have a situation where you can have five schools in the one area all Catholic. These are fully state-funded schools. In addition, asking parents in those local polls who had children settled in Catholic schools would they move them is not a fair representation of what people would actually want if they were starting from scratch. The demand for Educate Together schools is massive and most who want places in them cannot get them.
An poll commissioned by the Iona Institute found a majority of Irish people want non-religious patrons for schools. An Irish Primary Principals Network Red C poll found a majority want non-religious patrons for their children’s schools. And yet we continue to have the state funding religious organisations to deliver 96% of our state education system. That has to end. In the meantime, where there is no choice for citizens, it just adds insult to injury to then have your child put on the bottom of the list for so many of our state-funded schools. Absolutely wrong and immoral.
Not Irish born, neither of Catholic faith, but my kids were received in local school and I was never told I have to baptise them. And they moved schools as we moved to a different area.The only question was for us if we would like them to be taken out of the religion class or not, if we have a problem with them learning about other faith or not. And prove we lived in the area of the school as priority would be given to kids living in the same area as the school was.
I heard about same issue re a Hindi faith father who went to the principal of a certain primary school and demanded that the portrait of the saints be taken down as he found it offensive. The principal told him he cannot do that and the father was reminded he was made aware about the school’s ethos and religious pictures before a place was offered/accepted, before the child became a pupil of the school. Sometimes I think some people just use their kids to attract attention to themselves.
Ireland in 2015 folks. My sister and my niece had to be baptised to get into school though we are atheists. Our children were taught to take religion with a huge pinch of sugar and to keep thinking. This needs to end. NO religion should be taught in schools that should be the sole responsibility of the parents if that’s what they want. It should be replaced with ethics, sex education about their own bodies and science. Anything else is a waste of time.
You haven’t got the courage of your convictions so, I wouldn’t convert to Islam to get my kids into school. Your a Hypocrite, No doubt your kids will make their Communion and Confirmation and get married in a church and will end up in a church upon their Demise. Most Atheists are just self declared and have done nothing to remove themselves from the RC church. Hypocrites all, back your Drivel up with your actions or Toe the Line.
Garwig, we can’t remove ourselves from the Catholic church here in ireland. They will still count us as members because we were baptised when we couldn’t even walk or talk.
“No doubt your kids will… get married in a church and will end up in a church upon their Demise.”
Actually, if you looked it up the number of humanist or civil weddings is increasing, year on year.
You can remove yourself…! People don’t because they are living a lie and it’s easy to be a Hypocrite. Humanist ceremonies may be increasing and I say Hats off to those people as they at least had the courage of their convictions. It’s the Hypocrites that slate the Catholic Church when they are actually members of it and are engaging with its ceremonies and sacraments. They are the real joke here and they are spewing advice they won’t do themselves.
Actually no you can’t, before you could write to the archbishop and tell him you wanted to be removed but that’s no longer available. If you renounce your given faith they still count you as a number because you were baptized. Why do you think that is so except to give them power and influence to lobby. Once you are baptized the church considers you a member to the grave even if you don’t. If you know of a way to completely sever all ties to remove a person so that they can’t be counted as a member by them then please tell.
Actually you can I know 2 people one who converted to Buddhism and one who went Atheist officially. On their documents, so you can if the Catholic Church counts you as a baptism number after you declare some thing else who cares that’s just a statistic. So Have some courage to declare and stop living a lie.
A child’s religion should not be a question asked during registration into a state funded school, full stop.
100%
Absolutely!
Fair play to the Catholic Church the last Bastion against this erosion of our culture. I wat my children to be reared on catholic values and not the perversion of Islam of Hindu Caste systems. If they don’t like our way they can always leave. Anyone organising a counter demonstration? Oh No sure they would e branded Racists.
Having seen some of your past comments and this one I would say there is a very good chance you are racist.
Not one bit, there’s a very good chance you are a liberal tree hugging kumbya dreamer though. I’m a Realist.
No sadly not, never hugged a tree, but I am well travelled with a degree from London School of Economics, quite a left leaning establishment. However, look at your avatar, yep you are a racist!
Ah yes London the leading example of how Multi-Culturalisnm works…. you should kow better so. LMAO
Fahey can you explain how an avatar of a medieval knight is racist?
If you want your child reared as a Catholic then no problem do so. Why you need the state to indocrinate your children I have no idea.
Garwig, if you do want your children to be raised on Catholic values, you should set them a better example – remember love thy neighbour, the good Samaritan? If you are a Christian you are told that these values are more important than anything else. How can you reconcile hatred of others with that?
I would think you are in a minority these days if you think that Irish citizens consider Irish culture to be a Catholic one. As that minority, I would defend your right to be treated with dignity and respect.
Even if the schools worked on a first come first served basis which most do (within the specific groupings baptised in area baptised outside area and otherwise) he still would not be guaranteed a place? If the school didn’t have a spot for him when he applied then they don’t have a spot. Even though my daughter is baptised (by choice) the minute she was she was placed down for a spot in 3 local schools. 2 rejected her due to age (she missed cut off by a month) but thankfully we got her a place in third and that’s planning 4 years in advance! I know of people who have their child’s down before birth as only one local school and even then it’s a waiting game as demand is high!
Your child could have gone to the school the following year at it seems from your comment she is young for the year. This mans daughter could not, your point is mute. Your child was rejected on age not religion, distinct difference.
What has your child being rejected a place in a school based on her AGE got to do with this child being rejected because of her religion?!
Where necessary, using age as a criterion is perfectly sensible and acceptable. Had your daughter failed to get a place, she would have been top of the list the following year. My son is a full year older than some of his classmates and he was still rejected from schools because he wasn’t baptised.
You are wrong. Your daughter was not rejected because of her religion. That’s the issue. State-funded schools we are talking about here and too many of them Catholic, given that a majority of Irish citizens do not want this any more.
Should this child receive a place at the expense of another child?
And what should that other child’s parents do? Should they march?
And if that child is of a non-immigrant background will they get the publicity this cas is getting?
The question is not whether one child should be picked over another to get into a school.
It’s inevitable that decision has to be made on occasion – some (/many) schools have limited places.
But the issue is that religion (or race) should not be the determining factor.
“But the issue is that religion (or race) should not be the determining factor.”
Why not? It is a protected right.
He should have thought of that before moving to and settling in Ireland. Get the child baptised, problem sorted.
So you’re admitting the Roman Catholics use this policy to force conversions?
No, they are trying impose their opinion on the school. Why don’t they set up their own school? If others agree and join them, it would be a success. Instead the play the victim and parade their daughter in the media, which is not good for their child.
From someone who was educated in catholic schools, I’m so happy that my daughter was able to get into the local educate together. It’s shameful that this little girl is being discriminated against because of religion.
In my locality, there is no issue with religion. Every child from the community is welcome in the school which has a catholic ethos. regardless of religion.I know of many children who are not baptised and of different religions in schools here and there was never an issue. If this family lived in a rural area they would not have this problem. The real issue here is lack of schools around the country and in cities more so , but really a lack of multi denominational schools to cater for all the different religions and beliefs now living in Ireland in 2015. A city school that has hundreds of people applying for limited places have to choose and no matter what they do, they will be wrong. Someone will have a problem with it. In my opinion a catholic school has the right to choose catholic children if they wish. Not all catholic schools will do this and not all catholic schools are the same. A lack of schools is the the problem. In 2015 , a lack of multi denominational schools is the problem
Les roll over for the minority again and ride the indigenous out of the country.
I’m as indigenous as anyone, John. But my rights aren’t being respected either.
can someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t this the same case that was reported a couple of weeks ago where the father actually admitted that he was late in applying for a place for his daughter?? And call me a doubting thomas but where is the documentation that he was told that his child would have to be baptised?? And just one final question, is there anyone on here who thinks that i would get first choice of schools in Iran or Saudi???? i live in a rural area where all my children attend the local school and never once was i asked when applying to the school the year before they started. which i believe is policy for all school enrolments, what was their religion,
Chances are mick you’d be strapped to a pole and flogged for opening your mouth.
Thought at the time this family were just late with their application but i suppose if he makes a big deal if it he can skip the ever growing queue. Good move dad.
No, he was also refused a place for the following year because as his daughter was not baptised she again went to the bottom of the list. Many Irish born parents also affected by this.
If it’s so bad in this Country,
Why stay here.
If we go to another country, we can’t expect everyone to jump to our tune.
Point is… A child deserves an education regardless of their parent’s beliefs! Science, History, Math have nothing to do with being Catholic, Muslim or Hindu! You can go to any other countries and you might face the same issue… What would you do if you were the citizen of that country and find yourself that your child cannot have a proper education?
Ireland makes me sick! More and more everyday
Leave so.
I cannot believe that we allow patronage of our schools to belong to a group of individuals who collectively covered up child abuse in this country for decades.
@Lee how exactly do priest own schools? Secular civil authorities covered up too so must we remove the state’s involvement in education too?
Absolutely children should not be discriminated from education on grounds of religion (or race, for that matter).
Our bleedin’ constitution needs to say this.
Anything else is incredibly backwards this day in age.
Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution speaks of the inalienable right to respect for parents convictions and this is compatible with the findings of the European Court.
In the Primary School Curriculum, Rule 68 and the State Religious Education course at second level the state actively disrespects the philosophical convictions of atheist/secular families as it promotes the moral and spiritual development of our children through religious education.
This would be the same as promoting the moral and spiritual development of the children of Catholic families through atheist education. This policy undermines the rights of parents under Article 42.1 of the Constitution.
There is a duty of the State to remain neutral with regard to religion and beliefs but it is clear that our education system has failed to take on board this essential democratic principle.
This whole story is BS and shows just how much everyone will blindly follow any media spun garbage.
As a father of two children, with an Asian (non-citizen) partner (not married), one child is baptized one is not (don’t ask I did not want either baptized).
We had the joy of searching south county Dublin area for schools starting this September for both kids, we put their names down for two (catholic schools) close to our home and I had no questions about there religion or if they had been baptized, did not have to submit any forms about it…. NOTHING!!!
In the end they got accepted at both schools and we chose the one we felt better about… no fuss or hassle about unbaptized child…… on the other hand my Sister who has a son same age as my kids also tried but failed to find a place for her Baptized Son of Married Irish Parents in the Mullingar area…. she will just have to wait another year…. so where is her sons walk?
This article is what is wrong with journalism as a whole, lazy reporting and anecdotal evidence….
“However several schools later told him that they could not guarantee his child a spot for the following school year as she was not baptised.” — several? why cant you find out exactly how many and get comment from those schools….
“He said he received a phonecall from the Archbishop’s office advising that he baptise his child, leaving him furious.” — he said she said — but lets not let that get in the way of the narrative…
This whole story sounds more like some middle aged admin working in ONE of these schools made an off-hand comment about baptizing your child for better chance of getting in, maybe in jest/sarcastically and its been spun into this masterful piece of journalism and activism ….
and in the end — “Eva eventually got a place in a school around half an hour’s drive away” — so she got what my Sister and many other Irish parents with/without baptized kids did not get… so why are you all walking? cause someone made an allegation against all Irish schools based on his experience with “”several”"? do you always believe without doubt everything anyone tells you?
I can relate to this guy, it’s a policy of ah sure would you just not baptise him/her to get them in. And then when a census is done it appears we’re all Catholic. No child should be discriminated against because of their religious beliefs or lack of, especially if the school gets taxpayers funding.
There is always educate together for your child no one said you have to send your child Catholic primary school .
Frank, most Educate Together schools cannot accommodate all the children whose parents want them to go them — my kids’ school has four times as many families applying as get in. General over-subscription is part of the picture, but it’s not the whole thing. Two other (Catholic) schools in my area are undersubscribed. An awful lot of people who don’t want denominational education for their kids have no choice.
There are far more pressing things like the scandal of the amount of homeless families. Goes to show, like all the furore over the refugee crisis, people dont just like a good cause, they like a popular cause.
Religion isn’t the issue here. It’s supply and demand. He left it far to late to put his daughter’s name on the list. We had our daughters name on the list when she was 6 weeks old. she ended up getting the last place because some other kids turned down their place.
Why should any child in any state funded school (oversubscribed or not) have to reveal their religion (if any) just to get a place in school?
Should schools not be based on area?
The biggest organized group of Paedophiles the world has ever know controls over 90% of our schools…
Isn’t that worrying ?
biggest organised group of pedos? does islam really control 90% of our schools?
My daughter was never baptized and is being raised as a Buddhist by her mother who is a devout Buddhist. I never had a problem getting her into school in Tallaght, the schools there are brilliant and understand that religion is not as important as a child’s right to an education. I will never understand why the catholic church would want a person to convert to Catholicism against their wishes to secure a school place. Surely a forced conversion is wrong when the person is a non believer. what possible benefit can that have for either party. Shocking in 2015 that we can have gay marriage but a child cant get into school unless they change religion, its disgusting
So much for Secular modern Ireland when rules like this are still available for schools to hide behind!
Time to take the religion completely out of the Irish education system and let this hard-working Irish citizen receive equal rights be they Hindu, Atheist or other!
‘Hard-working’ ?
You must know the man personally.
Were you beside him when these alleged phone calls were made that no one has a record of ?
Are you saying that it is not the practice of Catholic state schools to discriminate, because it’s right there online in most of their admissions policies! In which case, it seems likely he is telling the truth!
Had sympathy until I read him whingeing about a half hour commute LOL..Everyday someone moaning that their sky-fairy isn’t being given enough respect and the bleeding hearts jumping on the bandwagon .. Catholic Church set up the education system in this country, they have to prioritise some way , maybe his Hindu child would be better served being educated in a non-Catholic primary school anyway, see how far a Catholic or atheist would get singing this tune in India ..God I hate religion
My son attends the local rc primary.we didn’t need him baptised to attend and we can opt him out of religion class (which we have).didn’t do his communion either.wish more schools took this attitude.
We need more school places for primary school pupils,then this type of selection criteria wouldn’t be necessary. In areas where there is a scarcity of pupils, catholic run schools enrol everybody. Many teachers in Catholic run schools are non believers . Catholic schools are filled with all types of pluralism. That’s the truth of the matter. We need more school places in some areas….that’s the problem.Stop making religion the problem,it’s not.
In this case, religion is precisely the problem. Most schools are run by religious orders and are permitted to discriminate on the basis of religion, which they do. You’re correct that it’s not a problem where it’s not a problem, but where it is a problem, it really is.
By what bizarre logic is religion NOT the problem when in 96% of our state education system children can be selected based on whether or not they are baptised! A majority of Irish citizens now want non-denominational or multi-denominational schools – how would you feel if nearly all our state schools were multi-d schools that put Catholic children at the bottom of their admissions list? Sure, if they couldn’t get into the best and most popular schools, or any school near to them, that would be tough, wouldn’t it – sure, couldn’t they just get on their bikes and travel find a school somewhere else?! Luckily, multi-d schools do not discriminate in this way, and that’s why so many Catholic parents have their children in multi-d schools.
@Derek,
Supply and demand. Places are too few to meet demand. Changing entrance policies would make life no easier for parents. A secular only model would leave an equal number of disappointed parents deprived of a place. Its ludicrous to claim otherwise when the math is so clear.
Just get out the old Photoshop and make yourself a baptism cert. Morally you’ll be in the same box as that organisation that owns the schools. Where I am if you don’t have that cert you might be in for a 25 mile drop and pickup every day rather than a walk. Time to CPO all the schools and keep indoctrination out of education. As it is if you teach your child to question everything and they do it at school with religion you’re in breach of their rules regarding disruption. Rural Ireland is still CS as opposed to IS.
Don’t panic Roopesh!!!
,wanna send your child to a Hindu school, religious studies must become a part of school curriculum. every single textbook should be rewritten to reflect national pride
schools in the northern Indian state of Haryana to use the Hindu holy book, the Bhagavad Gita, as part of the school curriculum.tough that you were unable to get you child into a Irish school,pisses me of that you have to go on some crusade because you were to late to put your child name down for a place, shit happen suck it up,and enroll you children early, also Im sure there is two sides to this fable.
Some people just love a good march
its simple dont have kids in ireland
Backward and disgusting apartheid in place against children in our country in this day and age
It’s absolutely shameful and disgusting that the church still runs such a large part of our schooling system. Everyone knows it needs to change and it’s been too long in coming.
Why does it have to be a Catholic school? Why not non denomination school?
Probably a lack of them in the area Mary. And they usually have quite the lengthy waiting list as well. I’d love to send my child to an Educate Together, but if that doesn’t happen, we’ll have no option but to send them to a similar denominational school.
Multi-d and non-d schools make up a tiny proportion of our state education system – despite huge demand from Irish citizens – and are massively over-subscribed. You can put your child’s name down from shortly after birth and still not get a place – I kid you not.
Non denominational schools are illegal in Ireland… None exist.
Irish citizenship does not imply that one is Irish though, does it? I may be Irish and hold citizenship for Australia but it doesn’t make me Australian.
Except in the legal sense, which is the only sense that matters with citizenship. By the wall, Roman Catholicism isn’t Irish, its a foreign cult based in Rome.
It is an absurd situation.
Denominational primary schools who are reliant on taxpayers’ money ought to be compelled to accept children on the basis of the constitutional right to education.
I believe that the Supreme Court would prioritise the children’s right to education over the denominational schools’ so-called constitutional right of free association.
As for religious education for children whose parents are devout Catholics, the following is the way to go.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/sunday-school-lesson-30242192.html
They do accept kids of all religions !!
However there is a waiting list in almost every school in the country except for the hippie lovvie-dovey schools. The man seems to think that in addition to veing handed citizenship without the ‘citizens’ gaving a view, then he is entitled to have his family walk into whatever school suits them ?
However bad the circumstances here I trust they are better that the circumstances he came from or he wouldn’t be here in the first place.
Ouch! Nasty! So are you suggesting nobody should travel and live in another country – closed borders all round! Bring back all the Irish citizens who have settled in other countries around the world (now THAT would be tricky!)… this man is a citizen who is contributing to this state – not some economic migrant or refugee! I hope the Irish living abroad with their families do not get treated with such racism. While it’s true that most Catholic schools do accept unbaptised children, this is when it suits them (sometimes they need the numbers to get funding if they are under-subscribed) and on a whim – ie they have a right to choose to put unbaptised children at the bottom of their priorities. In a 100% state funded education system in a secular country, that’s just not on any more.
I dont think its a race card at all. Im irish born and raised. Come from a r/c family but dont have my own children baptised. When I approached a r/c school I was told out straight that baptised children would get first choice. So basically I said f##k ur school and found a different one. I can under stand there been Catholic schools but times are changing and people are choosing not to baptise there kids. So they need to put more educate together schools based on no religious beliefs but teaches all kids and all religious beliefs
Mexico: The constitution provides that education should avoid privileges of religion, and that one religion or its members may not be given preference in education over another. Religious instruction is prohibited in public schools; however, religious associations are free to maintain private schools, which receive no public funds.
The bit that I find offensive is the disruption clause in the T&Cs if you manage to get your child into a Catholic school. Up here if your child questions anything to do with religion it is seen as being disruptive and can get them thrown out. I teach my child to question everything but it appears to be dangerous. We have no other viable options in most of rural Ireland but the local Catholic school. It’s medieval. I was beaten to an inch of my life by Nuns at school and never thought the same evil organisation would hold the education franchise in a modern Ireland. Sectarian rubbish that I’m paying for with my taxes. At this point I daren’t engage with the school and the priest as my child might end up with no school. I’m sick of it. What other country in modern Western civilisation anywhere allows a religion to run 90% of the schools? Intellectual barbarism.
I can’t get a quote from that insurance for women crowd #walkforthebigdog
Have you actually tried?
Actually just tried http://www.its4women.ie and they quoted me as a 43 year old male.
Not quoting me based on the fact that I am not female would be sexual discrimination.
Just cos the site is pink doesn’t mean they can break the law.
Now it’s a pity this wasn’t the case when i was fecking 20….
Alan, that’s not true. Insurance companies must accept both men and women, and charge the same despite their different risk profiles
Ah lads, you’d be worn out reading these comments! #KeepIrelandWhite #CloseTheBorders #DeyTookErJerbs
Ya know what, I’m getting my child baptised to avoid exactly this issue when the time comes. It’s a box ticking exercise, plain and simple. I get people have principles, and I don’t fully agree with what the whole baptism thing represents, but if you can get past all of that, it just makes stuff easier in the long run.
That’s fair enough. The problem is that it discriminates against people of other religions who can’t get baptized.
I would not recommend that. No mainstream church is going to allow such a baptism if they know its taking place.
Interesting. I’m sure there is a lot more discrimination going on due to ‘not being in the cachement area’ or ‘sister/brother preferential policy’ yet I haven’t seen any marches on this. Did all 8 schools reject on religious grounds or is this just highlighted for sensationalist reasons? Perish the thought! Are there no Educate Together alternatives in the locality? There are about 70 primary level ET schols in the country with a large concentration in Dublin. My daughter is in a catholic school and less than half her class made their communion so I don’t think this is a blanket policy. BUT I would be all in favour of removing religion from schools.
Loads saying we shouldn’t tolerate foreign religions, so when will we be expelling the Italy based religion that controls 90% of our schools?
@Warai Aoi
Actually, the Holy See is an independent entity that has sovereignty over the Vatican City. Therefore, Roman Catholicism is not “Italy-based” and it’s not a religion; it’s a denomination of a religion that is called Christianity.
If they don’t like it here, they know where the airport is. Why didn’t they consider their child’s education? It would seem, whatever the issue, Ireland is to blame!
Mr Simpson please pay for your purchases and get out. And come again
When labour entered government 90% of publicly funded schools in, 100% paid for by the Irish people, not Rome, where controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, today after 4 years 90% of schools remain under the control of an organization loyal to an absolute monarchical theocracy in the Vatican rather the Irish people, yet another labour party lie.
A Roopesh don’t be panicking you got sorted bud
Catholic schools for Catholic kids if there’s room left in then names out of a jet. Don’t like it then f@&@ off somewhere else. Simples really
The man should be delighted — 50% of the child’s language classes are in Irish. Hopefully she gets into a better school.
Equality – such a difficult concept for some to grasp.
Troubling times down at the Kwikemart
The only solution is to build schools of all types. Fiddling around with entrance polices can’t increase the number of total places available.
You can admire this father, doing all this for his daughter, but the story here is missing important details. It was already covered in Irish Times in October: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hindu-family-fails-to-get-place-for-child-in-local-school-1.2388898
They applied ten months ahead for a school place. That’s when every other parent is trying to get theirs down at birth. I’m Irish but not religious, mine aren’t baptised and won’t be sending mine to a catholic school. If I had applied at the same time, I would have been told the same thing – there isn’t a place, would you not just baptise them?
There’s definitely an argument for removing the catholic church’s patronage of schools, but this time, it wasn’t about discrimination.
When I put my child name down for a local school I was also askd to bring in the baptism cert. I’m a born Irish I’m from Dublin my whole family is Irish. I don’t think it’s about race it’s the rule of our Catholic school so iff my child was not Baptist I would of been put to the bottom… If a child is not Catholic what happens at religion were not Muslim schools were Catholic… Get over it because our own Irish kids have to be baptised also to get in to a Catholic school…
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