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THE OWNERSHIP OF the new National Maternity Hospital (NMH) remains contentious since it was first announced that the Sisters of Charity would be gifted ownership of the NMH after its transfer from Holles Street to the St Vincent’s Hospital campus (which is owned by the religious order).
Such a proposal has given rise to widespread public outrage and concern regarding the potential influence of the Church over the country’s National Maternity Hospital should this arrangement go ahead.
In the intervening period, the Minister for Health Simon Harris has done his best to calm public hysteria and counteract the negative rhetoric purveying the story.
Minister Harris insists there is “creative space”
The latest development has been the Dáil’s backing of the Sinn Féin motion on Wednesday (May 3) which calls for immediacy of action in respect to the hospital’s construction and for the provision of legal guarantees on its independence from all non-medical influence in clinical operations.
Minister Harris wisely withdrew the government’s counter motion during the debate and instead insisted there was “creative space” to examine the ownership issue. He has also sought more time to engage with pertinent stakeholders over the coming weeks and to consider the legal mechanisms necessary to “absolutely protect the State’s investment including ownership”.
It will remain to be seen what legal instruments will be utilised by the government to ensure such protection but many have been mooted in recent weeks.
A long-term lease
The latest suggestion from Minister Harris is a possible long-term lease, which was also previously mentioned by his Cabinet colleague Charlie Flanagan, Minister for Foreign Affairs, during a recent RTÉ interview.
The option of a long-term lease will be based firmly on what tenancy agreement is devised between the State and the Sisters of Charity and how commercially prudent it is for the tax payer. A long-term lease such as this could conceivably be for up to 999 years at a peppercorn (nominal) rent or be a lease with a view to acquiring freehold in the future.
At present it appears to be the most favoured and viable option. However, it will untimely be up to the potential landlords to convey how willing they are to enter such an agreement with State.
A compulsory purchase order
Another legal option for the State to consider would be a compulsory purchase order (CPO) in the acquirement of the lands upon which the new hospital will be built. The CPO process involves the taking of and without consent, lands for public infrastructure projects such as road improvements which are deemed to be in the common good.
CPO’s are inherently complex and contentious in their own right, where objections and delays are frequent and expected. Although the CPO option will be examined by the Government in this instance, it will be unlikely such drastic measures would be adopted.
Talk of CPO’s could also raise unwelcome questions about the governance of other voluntary hospitals, many of which are privately owned but entirely State-funded.
A “lien” can be an effective tool
The option of a “lien” has also been suggested by Minister Harris in recent interviews to protect the State’s future investment and was also contained within the 25-page report by former chairman of the Workplace Relations Commission Kieran Mulvey who acted as mediator on the terms of agreement between the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street, and St Vincent’s Hospital Group.
A lien can be an effective tool in such relationships as it acts as a type of charge upon real or personal property for the satisfaction of a debt and is essentially a security interest put in place to protect a creditor.
In this instance however, it would be questionable whether a lien would make commercial sense given the real benefactors would be the Sisters of Charity rather than the State as the lien would be presumably secured on the lands the hospital is built.
The very fact the hospital is being built on these lands would increase the market value extraordinarily to the benefit of the religious order.
Corporate law issues also prevail from the agreement which was reached last November between the Sisters of Charity, the sole shareholders of St Vincent’s Healthcare Group and the board of the NMH. The ownership issue as alluded to above present’s challenges not only from a “Property Title” perspective but also raises legitimate fears about the possibility of undue influence by the Sisters of Charity on the hospitals clinical and operational independence.
“Reserved powers” cannot be easily removed
Despite assurances that the hospital’s autonomy will be safeguarded through “reserved powers” that only the Minister for Health can amend as well as holding a “golden share” for added protection, uncertainty prevails.
The perceived protections have actual limits, for although these “reserved powers” cannot be easily removed as they are merely powers rather than legal obligations. Such “reserved powers” could be influenced in theory through the Board of Directors, which will be comprised of nine Directors, four nominated by the St Vincent’s Hospital Group and another four nominated by the National Maternity Hospital Chartered Trust, leaving one vacancy to be filled by an independent international expert in Obstetrics and Gynaecology as appointed by a Selection Committee (as yet undetermined).
This leaves the real possibility that such an expert could have a casting vote on important Board decisions which could severely alter the extent these “reserved powers” are exercised.
Saga likely to run for some time
Another obvious legal concern is the ultimate control which could be enjoyed by the Sisters of Charity in their ability as sole shareholders to use such legal status with the purpose of changing the corporate structure of the NMH and deviate from the initial agreement and specific safeguards as contained therein.
The NMH saga is likely to run for some time, and continue to be lampooned with accusations of mistrust and concern, however legitimate or unwarranted. It will therefore take an impressive charm offensive by government and in particular Minister Harris to restore some sense of decorum and stability to these proceedings.
The ownership challenge is one that will need to be resolved post haste and despite what legal mechanism is eventually favoured, trust will need to be restored so as to ensure that we do not lose sight of the grand prize, a new National Maternity Hospital for Irish citizens.
Jason O’Sullivan, is a Solicitor and Public Affairs Consultant at J.O.S Solicitors.
Unfortunately people are “bored” of it now. We all are but we need most of us to stick with the hand washing, 2m etc etc for longer. Our health service almost implodes every winter with Flu never mind plus covid.
@Jean Donnelly: I agree, just one addendum to what you say, brushing fingernails as well as handwashing is likely to help even more.
@Jean Donnelly: the notion that people are ‘bored’ of covid is a load of crap. Its a big part of everybody’s lives. Our cases are not rising because of public boredom, they are rising because of government ineptitude. We dont require international travellers to have a negative test, we are cramming kids into rooms together all day, DP, meat plants etc. These are not caused by the general public. In actual fact, the general public are the ones who almost annihilated the virus in Ireland.
@Jean Donnelly: Time to stop this constant Fear mongering by Govt and these NPHET muppets. For what is now just a Casedemic, always overstating what will happen, they did it when this all started, and are still giving unrealistic mad numbers.
It’s time to put the brakes on these daily updates which do nothing but instill fear into many people, but keeps the curtain twitchers delighted.
Ditch the daily info, and just tell us once a week how many active infections there, excluding those who have recovered and found to be False positives.
How many are just the Common Cold which is also Coronavirus.
Let people get busy living. Instead of being busy fearing.
@Dan: NPHET say that cases are rising because of “House Gatherings” as far as I am aware. However, I agree with you that Covid-19 is a big part of most people’s lives. I am only one of many people queueing outside the local Tesco, for example. I think Jean’s notion that people are getting tired of this is correct, though. It’s exhausting, but we have to keep it up.
@Jean Donnelly: nphet were due to be sidelined for a government covid committee and suddenly they are putting fear of God in people again.. Coincidence
@nelliekel: enough of conspiracy.
@PeeedOff: I trust NPHET vastly more than you. Make of that what you will.
@Dan: shame I’m only able to upvote your post once. Fully agree. There’s been a higher than average compliance to the restrictions over here compared to quite a few jurisdictions , but our so-called leaders did their absolute best to feck it up.
@Dan: sure most of the cases are resulting from peoples homes. Schools are only back 2 to 3 weeks and the rise was happening way before that. I totally agree this goverment are making a total hash of many things but the responsibility lies with the public. The message has been given, but many are ignoring it. Having groups in their homes, going to house parties etc.
@PeeedOff: there arent false positives. There are false negatives
I sincerely hope icu and emergency capacity has been upgraded since the first wave. its the most important thing they should have done since the first wave. all the rest is window dressing by comparison
@PeeedOff: excellent well said
@Domhnall O’Sullivan: that would be too intelligent for them to think of that or even comprehend them doing so
@John Hazelnut: I would make it that you don’t read much it’s all there to read
@Domhnall O’Sullivan: On 1/9/20 there were 356 Critical Care beds open and staffed but by 15/9/20 there were 278 Critical Care beds open and staffed,a reduction of 78 beds,I don’t know why!More Critical Care Beds need to be open and staffed.
@JT: we were doing pretty well on case numbers until the meat factory issue reared its head again. Can’t blame the public for that. For the most part people are doing their bit. The Government haven’t put a proper tracking and tracing system in place or sufficiently increased ICU capacity.
@Nuala Mc Namara:
i recall a total capacity of 270 or something like that back in march. so an increase to even 356 is completelyunacceptavle. thats an increase of less than 50%. these people have blown 30 to 40 billion. maybe loads more!!! tjis is the most important part of the reaction. the rest is much lesd important.. policing restaurants. cancelling leaving certs.. all of that means nothing in comparison..
Is there a country that’s opened since lockdown that hasn’t seen cases rise similar to pre lockdown? Is what we’re trying to achieve even possible?
@John Egan: no John and that will never happen!
@John Egan: There’s a good chance it’s going to be up and down like this until we have a vaccine.
@John Egan: nope, and much as I can’t stand our shambles of a govt, the reality is they can’t do anything, nobody can.
Start stockpiling water, tinned food & dried foods, there’s going to some tough times ahead methinks.
@Mark Curley: I wish the ministers and Nephet would realise that also , it’s like they get a constant shock when the numbers go up even though society has opened up what did they expect drama show
@John Egan: we ourselves saw a slower rise in cases post-lockdown to pre-lockdown. If you compare the amount of time it took us to breach 300 newly confirmed daily cases the first time, and compared it to how long it took to hit 300 daily cases since the 29th june you will see a big difference. Also take into account the following:
1: Back then, only symptomatic cases were tested. Now it is also close contacts without symptoms.
2: So far we have only breached 300 twice this time. Now there are 2 big differences between now and then.
1: The introdution of mandatory wearing of masks in certain areas.
2: Cannot mention it because the “OPEN THE PUBS” brigade wil lose their minds.
@John Egan: it’s an utopia. Every-time we close down or restrict we further harm people immensely, every time we open up the cases come back, catch 22. We will ravage everything else to pursue it though due to stubbornness from government & NPHET
@John Egan: this is the only sensible comment I’ve seen regarding covid in ages.
@John Egan: New Zealand had zero cases for 2 months and now only a few cases.
@John Egan: Sweden never locked down and aren’t experiencing a second wave
@John Egan: we thought by locking down we were flattening the curve and saving the health services. But Covid didn’t leave, it was still outside the door waiting for us, and it’s not going to go anywhere anytime soon. We pretty much just deferred cases a few months. This virus is too contagious, we just need to live with it and adopt the same model as Sweden from here on out.
@John Egan: if only for the next two weeks the majority of us would follow guidelines, the answer to that question would be Ireland.
@John Egan: that’s a great question. We should at least give ourselves a little time to find the answer.
‘Hospitalisations are increasing and we’re sadly seeing people die’. A statement like that would lead people to assume that the deaths are occurring in hospitals. Except that NPHET do not give any details on the deaths, Dr Glynn says he does not have that information when asked at the press conferences. It was confirmed on RTE this week that there have been 40 recent outbreaks in nursing homes. The ICU numbers are not reflecting any deaths related to ICU at least
@Anna Anna: NPHET will always prove you right, because they will get the virus under control, not you.
@Anna Anna: Oh, the irony. I’m just so glad NPHET are have the power.
@John Hazelnut: thanks for your input John ;)
@John Hazelnut: Parroting a website and all of a sudden shes an expert. No holistic analysis, deaths don’t matter someone leaving ICU might be leaving in a box or body bag.
She might report 2 extra people in ICU as the website would say, but that could be 3 dead and left and 5 new patients.
Not only has this virus killed people it has grown a group of nefarious keyboard warriors who really wouldn’t know shyte from cake.
@John Hazelnut: Actually it will be the people who will get it under control.
@PaulOMahoney Irish: no Paul, the data hub gives the admissions not ‘extra people’, 13 in ICU yesterday, 1 admission, means 14 today in ICU. The deaths are not coming from ICU. The stats are from the Covid data hub. You say I’m ‘parroting’ a website and then you demand holistic analysis. I post the hospital stats from the Data Hub. As I (and others) told you last week I won’t include the deaths or cases in my comment as my comment gives hospital stats which are not mentioned in the article.
@Anna Anna: to be fair that statement is correct. Hospitalisarions are increasing and we are sadly seeing people die. Your interpretation of that is exactly that . Your interpretation.
@PaulOMahoney Irish: Agreed on all points. Stay safe.
@Franny Ando: You have a good point, but NPHET need to be in charge.
@Anna Anna: Actually the most recent Covid-19 deaths in Critical Care Units was on Monday 14/9/20,RIP.
If you look at the Health Protection Surveillance Centre data re summary of Total deaths :42.75% were hospitalised and 57.24% were not hospitalised.
Of the 42.75% that were hospitalised:12.56% of these were admitted to ICU and 87% were not admitted to ICU so majority of those patients must have sadly died on the wards not the ICU.
I might disagree with the Government from time to time but I 100% support the public health guidelines re personal hygiene, social distancing,masks.
Do you 100% support the public health advice given to the public?
@Anna Anna: Yesterday there were 13 CONFIRMED Covid-19 patients in ICU by also 7 SUSPECTED cases of Covid-19 patients in ICU.There are SUSPECTED Covid-19 patients recorded in ICU too.
As you can see in my comment to you above re total number of Covid-19 deaths that occurred in hospitals,just 12.56% of those sadly died in ICU so the remaining 87% of patients who died of Covid-19 in hospitals were not admitted to the ICU.
@Nuala Mc Namara: there has always been suspected cases in ICU and hospital. They rarely turn out to be confirmed cases. A suspected case is just a patient in hospital waiting on the covid results.
@Anna Anna: Lets move this forward, and I’m not demanding anything. You use the hub and from what you post are those figures, can you tell us with a high degree of certainty that those figures are accurate, because I would not think that data would be moved around the system that quickly.
It is highly possible that the data is weeks old, its highly possible that its inaccurate, its highly possible its irrelevant and so on. You have stated that the data is updated twice a day, fine but what data, etc.
There’s an old saying in data analysis ” crap in crap out” , there is always a lag in reporting data, and we have seen late reporting of deaths, so why can’t the hospital data also be dubious?
You appear to be using data that we have no idea what level of contamination or bias that data has inherently included and lets be frank here you do use that data to question official death data and other pronouncements being made by NPHET, that is nefarious behaviour and is scaremongering.
Can you tell us how reliable from a time view is that data….and how why do you make the assertions that deaths aren’t happening in hospitals and you have stated that on numerous occasions.
@PaulOMahoney Irish: you’re doubting the official HSE figures on the Covid data hub, yet you accuse me of scaremongering? Have a think about that Paul. And maybe start to check the data hub yourself and you’ll get a full picture and see why myself and others know that deaths are not from Covid patients in ICU. The dates are on the hospital figures if you’d bother to check.
@PaulOMahoney Irish: the Journal even had an article on the hospital figures yesterday – headline stating 13 in ICU and 68 in hospital. Those were the figures yesterday on the Covid Data hub.Today there is 14 confirmed in ICU and 65 confirmed in hospital
@Anna Anna:Who suspects that ICU patients may have Covid-19 …. hospital consultants so they must have symptoms of Covid-19 and some of these suspected Covid-19 cases have been ventilated.
@Anna Anna: would you stop acting as if you are an expert you are not. I think I’ll take nphet advice and views not yours.
@Nuala Mc Namara: a suspected case becomes a confirmed case Nuala when their test returns a positive result. There are many patients who end up in hospital/ICU with pneumonia or other respiratory problems. Naturally they will be considered suspected cases on arrival as they are displaying covid symptoms so a covid test will be performed. If the result is positive they then become confirmed cases. While they wait for the result they are one of the ‘suspected cases’. There’s going to be a huge surge in ‘suspected cases’ coming into Winter when flu and pneumonia cases will rise. There were hundreds of suspected cases reported on the HSPC site daily in August whej hospital numbers were stable and they had no effect on the confirmed cases as very few returned positive.
@Anna Anna: Anna I’m not the one posting this stuff and I have no reason to doubt NPHET or publicly question their collective statements. You are however are, even your post today mentioning a statement that would strike fear.
If you are going to do that its you that needs to verify that the data is accurate.
Simply saying I should is a cop out.
History has thought me that HSE hospital reporting to be weak, untimely and inaccurate on many levels.
Again what you post is worthwhile but using it to undermine the medical experts appears crass especially when the data is verified and taken as de facto correct.
@Anna Anna: I know what a suspected Covid-19 patient means!
I said yesterday that I might disagree with Government from time to time but I 100% support the public health guidelines re personal hygiene, social distancing,masks.I then asked you a question:do you support the public health advice given to the public but you didn’t answer that question!
When you first started posting Covid-19 Hub data,I assumed you supported public health guidelines and advice but your other comments have questioned that advice and you have made quite personal&nasty comments under your anonymous pseudonym about acting CMO,NPHET,Prof Luke O Neill!
Are these deaths as a direct result of Covid or have they had other illnesses which make them more susceptible to dying from any virus? I’d also like to know if the vast majority of people getting it are seriously ill, mildly ill or have no symptoms. The numbers in hospital would indicate little to no symptoms.
@Lauren McKeown: your totally on the right track Lauren..
@Lauren McKeown: The overwhelming majority of those that die have existing illnesses and general poor health, but that’s always been common knowledge since day 1.
@Peter Denham: I know Peter. Still don’t see them revising down that death count after they came out a few months ago to say only ONE THIRD died as a direct result of Covid.
@Lauren McKeown: the fear alone for elderly people being told they were positive to a deadly virus with no cure wouldn’t help with or without underlying condition
Stress is a killer alone
@Peter Denham: I saw a great post about this earlier: 2’977 people died in the 9/11 attacks, 2’748 had pre-existing conditions so really only 229 people died.
@Diarmuid Hunt: Bit of a non point Diarmuid.
@Lauren McKeown: covid is not a definite cause of death. Someone with Copd, can be fine with medication and intervention, but with a respiratory infection (caused by covid) can die. Was the cause of death Copd or covid? The cause of death was respiratory inflammation. The figures have to show both, for understanding and modelling and implementation for future recommendations. Our information is feeding into global statics helping recommendations and understanding , it would be dishonest to fudge figures, or recategorised. Information is key long term. Ultimately we have to protect the vulnerable, please don’t get caught up in media interpretation, and sensationalism, they only want to sell advertisements
@Lauren McKeown: The people who die of covid with under lying conditions could have had a few more years left if they did nt get covid. So it’s still a death that could have been prevented.
@Lauren McKeown: enough of the conspiracy theories already!
@Lauren McKeown: Lauren, please read up on how a Death Cert is completed. I will help you, from this very publication:
https://www.thejournal.ie/how-many-people-have-died-from-covid-19-in-ireland-5198763-Sep2020/
If you scroll down a bit you will see how a death cert is completed. First you have the absolute immediate cause of death, in terms of Covid-19 deaths this will most often be Acute Respiritory Distress Syndrome (ARDS). This will most often be caused by Pneumonia (a proximate cause of death) which itself will most often be the result of damage to the lungs caused by a Covid-19 infection.
A very simple way to look at this is that diabetes (for example) does not cause pneumonia, ever. But having pneumonia while also having diabetes (and the resultant systemic stress it causes) is much worse than having pneumonia and not having diabetes. It massively increases your risk of developing ARDS which is what could well kill you. Does this make sense to you? Can you stop talking nonsense now, please?
@Lauren McKeown: there was some kind of article on the Journal last week where they tried to explain – the cause of death -as per WHO standards- is usually the last one reported before the heart failure. So the pre condition doesn’t seem to be taken into account. And it seems the fear either suits Governments or else they don’t know how to stop it.
@Lauren McKeown: the figures also indicate that the deaths aren’t happening in hospital. Very worried that it is back in the nursing homes. If it is, that suggests negligence.
@SquintEastwood: well said , stress and Constant negativity ,anxiety , despair and depression are all going to major factors that I don’t think the government are truly thinking about
Why not applying more severe restrictions to the under 30s… Those are the ones primarily causing this.
@Patitas: would that not be similar to tighter restrictions on the most vunerable 70,80+? Neither I agree with.
@Patitas:
Close the off-licences and stop supermarkets selling alcohol…..at least for a while.
@Patitas: Loads of teenagers getting off Luas today ….not a hair’s breath between them !
@Mary Walshe: So I can’t order an online shop and enjoy a few drinks at home without being in contact with anyone? Cop on
@John Egan: the vulnerable are too afraid to go out so it’s not them.
@Patitas: I’m 31 and the wife 29. I’ll be sure to sit her down for a stern lecture later if that helps ?
@Mary Walshe: Ridiculous idea
@Anthony Edward Healy: The woman is absolutely insane agree with you
She should go and live in a dictatorship that might suit her better
@Seaniecp: ha good man Its all getting ridiculous now
@Anthony Edward Healy: i would say you would be the exception rather than the norm in terms of alcohol sales though. So as much as you may not like it, restrictions would have to be emplaced to deal with the majority, rather than you as the minority
@Mary Walshe: eat a D mary
@Mary Walshe: Dont be ridiculous !!
@Patitas: How do you think that would work? The people (of whatever age) who throw common sense and the sense of responsibility within a community to the wind aren’t going to change their ways with more restrictions. Also since it was recommended to wear masks while shopping I’ve only seen one person blatantly disregard the rule and not give a hoot when another customer brought it up, he was 40+.
@Mary Walshe: close your mouth
@Mary Walshe: couldn’t agree more Mary!!! We should look to 1920′s America for pointers on prohibition, resounding success that it was……..
@Mary Walshe: come off it! Christ me having a drink at home is not spreading covid to anyone!
@Patitas: Witchhunting and blame gaming won’t solve this crisis. Might be better just have everyone in the country become Journal commenters, because it appears the majority are self-righteous prlcks who follow every rule and never put a foot wrong. It’s ALWAYS someone else’s fault. Young people, holidaymakers, skiers, students, Italians, Iranians, Boris Johnson, old people, rugby fans, horseracing fans, pub-goers, Donald Trump, construction workers, Dominic Cummings, fruit pickers, immigrants, caravan owners, camper van owners, NI reg car owners, Texans, meat factory workers, direct provision dwellers, politicians, Dubliners and now young people again. I’m beginning to worry less about the actual virus and more about the mental health issues it’s mere mention seems to be inducing in many of our citizens. (and just noticed Mary’s comment about closing off-licences and banning alcohol sales in supermarkets. The exact type of ‘blame game” paranoia I’m talking about).
@Lisa Quinn: well put Lisa.
@Irene Mc Hugh: need more discipline I have never seen such a lazy attitude from the Guards & the Government
Shut it down ,block the roads 1week and then you’re see the difference,all about money . In March I was in Spain 30 Sq meter you were all to go,shopping once a day. 10 Weeks,now there back to square one again..Shut Dublin now
@Dave Thomas: cheers dave.i really held back.
@Mary Walshe: and drive the youth into the arms of drug pushers ???
@Patitas: no evidence of that at all. Never once have the data indicated that. Under 45s are more likely to be at work, not partying.
@Mary Walshe: Remind me to invite you to the next party I’m having. You’re great craic I’d say.
Don’t like this Nolan lad.
Seems to love the media limelight ,always with sensationalist statements without credible evidence or solutions.
@Mr Bordello: spot on man
@Mr Bordello: Nolan’s the guy a few weeks ago that said for a while we should be content to be able to go to and from work, and for children to be able to go to school.
@Mr Bordello: you don’t like what he says you don’t like the truth
@Mr Bordello: he is trying to so his job as best he can. If you have the qualifications then perhaps you could ask Rte to be their covid expert.
It’s not to late to stop this rising we all have a part to play we all know what to do to stop this spreading further. The only Christmas present I want is one where no one is dying of covid19.So I’m taking all the precautions I can for my family and people around me.
@Joed: the Government and HSE also have their part to play. They’re blaming people when their track, trace and isolation methods are failing also.
Talk about alarmism and putting more of the fear of god into people until everybody is traumatised beyond repair. We get you , you want a level 3 in Dublin & never ending restrictions “ 3 weeks and we will see “ & suddenly it’s 2022 .
Also People are not passing away at hospitals it seems, so what’s happening here? Are those in need of ICU not admitted to hospitals ?
@Isabel Oliveira: just read a comment that 2 deaths were denotified.
@Isabel Oliveira: people deserve to have the fear of God put into them if people, and it is people who are responsible here not the Govt and not NPHET, don’t abide by the health guidelines. The secret to slowing and stopping this is people behaviour, not government, not NPHET. The authorities can only issue guidance. The loonies will claim breach of rights, there’ll be anti lockdown protests and protests against wearing masks and as long as we have these charlatans in our midst expect to see rapidly changing guidelines and peaks and troughs of case numbers and deaths.
@Isabel Oliveira: denial will get you everywhere?
@GrumpyAulFella: you seem to forget it was Government and NPHET who turned a blind eye to provision centres, meatplants etc. They tried to close down Kildare and leave these plants open until public pressure came to bear. We have had golf gate which after a few big name resignations has been forgotten about. So no I don’t agree with your comment its not solely down to people’s behaviour. Its down to the ineptitude of Government and NPHET and their one rule for us and another for them. Majority of people are doing all they can to protect themselves and others.
Honestly, I’m sick of hearing how “worried” and “concerned” politicians and NPHET are at this stage. Either be worried and take decisive action, or be quiet. Rightly or wrongly, people are tuning out of the constant bad news and public displays of officials hand-wringing and furrowing their brows. The confused policymaking, mixed messaging and selective adherence to the rules by politicians aren’t helping either.
@Eric: Are they still banging on about: “The next seven days will be the most important seven days”?
Dr Marcus De Brun, who resigned from the Medical Council because of the treatment of people in care homes, is right: as long as this “crisis” is perpetuated as a “crisis”, there will be no investigation into the horrendous mis-management of the only place which matters when it comes to this disease: the care home.
What did they expect to happen when everything opened up again. They are talking as if this has come as a surprise
@Alan Kenny: They should be getting tested for dementia as they seem to forget what they do be talking about most of the time, they know dam well numbers we’re going to rise when society opened up , but I think they just use it to scaremonger people constantly it’s not on !
@Alan Kenny: they literally kicked the can down the road and are acting surprised that the delayed cases are here now that we reopened. Lockdowns wont work unless we lockdown until corona is a thing of the past otherwise we are kicking the can down the road
Workers on building sites, 6to 10 travelling in vans from different parts is the country, most heading to Dublin sites, I know people have to work, but should they be travelling in the one van together for a few hours a day, this is one of the reasons for the spread, we will be locked down again for sure, don’t know if pubs opening will escalate the numbers but it’s not going to help, again publicans and bar staff have to work, it’s a worrying time.
Trumping you’re beat a virus with no vaccine is a game of wack-a-mole. You can suppress it but you can’t eliminate it. It will come back every time you ease off.
It’s a simple case of deciding if you’re better off letting it rip through the country or economic or death by a thousand cuts (not to mention those who’ll die because their entirely preventable diseases go undetected)
It’s a Hobson’s choice but we can’t have it both ways. We have to choose.
I choose let it rip. My kids future is way more important than mine.
@Paul Lanigan: Well considering we have Zero understanding or idea of the medium and long term damage to children and teenagers this virus may cause that’s an extremely foolish and premature attitude to take towards your children’s future and safety. This has been 6 months. Not 6 years. 6 months.
There actually going down boss you need to looks at the stats instead of freaking out the nation for no apparent reason we’ve had enough
Just got to live with it and get on with the little bit of happiness we have left in us all before the depressing winter months hit
rip to those who have died but we must keep going forwards and thinking positive
@B: have to agree with you mate, dublin aside, are 100 plus cases a day in the whole country alot? Most of the deaths seem to be Denotifications and health experts cant tell where they happened.
@B: unfortunately we are dealing with a reactionary government who are enjoying sensasionalising everything. Your totally right we need to just get on with it. All that’s happening now is fear mongering.
@Madethyme: we are very lucky to have the the real experts on here who have all the answers.
@Brian Madden: and where did our health experts gain knowledge on something the world has never seen or experienced on this scale?
@Brian Madden: as opposed to what? Blindly following NPHET, and the government’s advice.. well thats getting us far.. the government are now solely taking advice from NPHET, a body of people who have not been changed since the start of this pandemic. Maybe a new body of people may have some better ideas.. because we need to stop the sensational headlines all the time day in day out depending on numbers. People need a clear vision of what is going on not dreading every evening reading the figures!
@Madethyme: that’s exactly what we want, a reactionary govt. Don’t react to this thing and it will grow exponentially. Look at the figures over the past 5 days. Why would the govt want to sensationalise anything if you really think about it?
@GrumpyAulFella: not a government that has complete tunnel vision! They can’t react on a day to day basis on figures threatening lockdown again and livelihoods, they have completely overlooked the problems this is causing and will continue to cause for business, the 600 odd thousand on waiting lists for hospitals, the mental health issues.. the list goes on. We need clear cut decisions from people with confidence not micheal martin blundering around blindly at a press conference.
@B: translation: ‘i’ll be grand and I want a pint , and as a bonus I won’t have to go to any funerals when the auld wans start dying because only a few are allowed at them.’
@aidanshaw: it’s a coronavirus. It’s not the first one. You think that for every virus we encounter that we start from scratch?
@Madethyme: This is not a political experiment. Basic methodology to combat virus doesnt change by swapping out the people. Its tried and tested and based on sound scientific principle Test, trace, isolate, hygiene and lowering social interaction. Their advice is not based on a political spectrum. It’s based on medical expertise. Your argument is the equivalent of “I dont like the message so change the messenger”. Of course they taking advice from NPHET. The government are not medical experts! NPHET are being forced to alter their recommendations to account for the fact our government doesnt have an adequate TTI programme in place. Quick TTI allows you to make different decisions because you can track their effectiveness quickly. We are asking our health officials to do this without giving them the tools to do it and then becoming angry at their advice. What do you mean by a clear vision? I have a very clear vision of what’s going on. My country is combating a virus. An organism that adapts and becomes unpredictable because the behaviour of its host is unpredictable. This situation is highly fluid. Anyone looking for “visions” is again thinking about this politically and not medically. 2 weeks is the maximum you’re going to get because 2 weeks is the high end of the infection cycle. Any “visions” longer than that are pure conjecture because they’re based on no data.
@Gerard Smith: i meant on this size and scale, with your reasoning its just another normal virus.
@aidanshaw: that’s exactly it they don’t know and just put it down to covid to keep us in contention it’s barbaric talk
@Madethyme: for 100%
@aidanshaw: brilliant comment that’s exactly my thinking how are they so-called experts if it’s only a new Phenomenon
@Ron Kingston: I couldn’t care less about having a pint my friend
@B: lol ahh but there have being corana viruses before they tell you lol.. Id imagine a lot was learnt from skys coverage on italy in march, can you imagine if it hit us first and our experts say dont worry we have seen this before lol. It would have being god help us.
@aidanshaw: We have global inoculation schemes exactly because we have dealt with viruses of this scale before. That’s my point. We have the experience to deal with it. It’s our habits as societies that spreads this. We need political leaders with vision perhaps but we need scientists with facts and experience,
The full lockdown dident work.
The mandatory wearing of facemasks dident work.
We just have to wait till covid runs its course like the spanish flu did
8-10 cases per 100,000 is tiny.
@Jim Lingk: It is, but you should look up how exponential growth works.
@Diarmuid Hunt: I am well aware of what exponential growth is. How it ‘works’ depends on what you are actually measuring.
The worst of Covid 19 is over, there will be more deaths unfortunately, there will be more people seriously ill. There will also be many, many more who have the virus and are not ill. Not ill at all. Others will be mildly ill, no worse than feeling a little run down. The vulnerable should be protected, and that can be done without causing economic devastation.
10, going to 20,going to 50,going down, going back up to 100, etc. cases per 100’000 is statistically so small that virtually no other decisions would be made on that.
The statistical difference between 50 and 500 people per hundred thousand is almost zero.
This metric is ridiculous to be basing anything on. And when it goes down again, which may not be for a long while, they will switch to whichever metric suits the rhetoric that this is the worst pandemic ever, whereas it is the least deadly pandemic in the history of earth, by a long shot.
This virus can leave some young people who have no underlying illness with life changing consequences and even death. Everyone is at risk..So we should try to keep this virus under control now before winter sets in and hopefully a vaccine will eventually come along in the mean time . Keeping the virus under control is the only way to do this.
@Joed: What makes you think a vaccine will get rid of the virus? There’s never been a successful vaccine for a coronavirus.
@Michael Mc Carthy: yes but they are creating a vaccine to target the spike protein which is also new
@Joed: I agree with you Joed but I have a brother who is 35 years of age and a son who is 22 and both of them are off the same opinion that covid isn’t as bad as they are making it out. No amount of explaining this too some of the young people who don’t believe it will change their minds other then then someone close to them gets really sick from it.
I myself have type 1 diabetes so I take everything seriously but there are a lot of people out there that just don’t give a Damm about it.they are the muppets that should be brought into the IC units in the hospitals and showing what a covid patient looks like .
They make me so angry
So the masks are working?
Have they considered doing anything to stop it???
@Sarah Cullen: they don’t even know what day it is never mind stopping it
@Sarah Cullen: only people behaviour can stop it. People transmit it themselves, not govt and not NPHET.
@GrumpyAulFella: Time has come to give the herd theory a go. Plan A has clearly failed, it’s on the rocks with the wasted billions
@GrumpyAulFella: there is literally so much the government can do to reduce the impact of covid on the people of Ireland. Like literally so much. Mayo University Hospital, Limerick UH, Sligo UH all full…..not one confirmed case in mayo uh. We have had since February to increase the capacity of the hospitals, to build new hospitals etc what have they done?? The issue with covid in Ireland is it will quickly overwhelm the already inadequate healthcare system. If we are not in lockdown the virus will spread no matter what people do, a certain percent will catch the virus as it’s in the community and so are they. The only options available are full lockdown or increased hospital capacity and they are doing neither.
Ah jeasus
Office workforce working from home, no large gatherings, majority wearing face masks, majority adherence to social distancing and public far more educated on dangers of virus since March.
Cases on rise in Europe. We can not prevent it so no point turning on each other. We are doing are bit so government should shut up about blaming public.
@Mr Wilde:….. And do their part.
Who actually watched the full press conference on rte news now? I did and it was crystal clear reduce your discretionary contacts by half and continue the basic measures.
No NPHET briefing on the 6 one News this evening .is this an insult to Dr Glynn and his staff or is Mehole running scared
@Philip Martin: Think that was part of the plan was it? I’m sure that I heard there would be no more daily briefings
@Philip Martin: It was on RTE and you can see it on YouTube.
The measures by NPHET and the government are counterproductive and simply not working. People are not listening to them anymore and I don’t blame them, totally clueless at this stage. The main reason for the increasing numbers is simple – uncontrolled house parties and social gatherings. Open the pubs and extend the closing times, maybe to around 1am, at least people have somewhere to go and will be in a controlled environment. I have to laugh at the government speaking lately of their fear of potential super spreaders in pubs…what about 20/30 people shoulder to shoulder in house parties???? I was out on Sat night in Dublin where all at once 1,000’s of people are thrown out of pubs all at once at 11.30-12pm…where do the government expect them to go? Toddle off home, say their prayers and off to bed!? The majority go for more drinks at a house with absolutely no measures and I don’t blame them…Nphet and the government are the problem, not the Irish people!
Close the effing schools…a vaccine is on it’s way. Kids staying out for 3 months is not going to destroy society. The health system will crumble if it hasn’t already
@Maxx Power: vaccine out according to CNN between Nov Dec. However the manufacturing capacity not ramped up enough for public in general until next july 2022.
@Maxx Power: would you take a vaccine that has been rushed? You are brave. Right now, it seems the majority of people are treated well by hospitals given the small ratio of cases vs death. The key thing is to ensure the health system is managed and funded properly, not close schools for 3 months.
Stop Dublin coming to Waterford and infecting us all ,
@Kipper O Keeffe: and Wexford.
People have to work and get with lives too… U don’t want family’s loosing houses etc but limit ur public contact is all we can do
@pat murphy: that’s an economic choice not a medical one. There is nothing stopping the government from placing a moratorium on mortgage payments if they have the will to do it.
Revenge of the Nerds
Level3 is a joke. They are saying its a huge event. Only level5 will begin to help in Dublin. Anything else will not reverse the trend. Covid will be in 1 out of every 2 schools by the end of this month.
Level 3
Or as Michael Martin calls it level 2.5
Loved the references to new Zealand yesterday
No doubt it’s NPHETS wet dream to enact a similar response to them
Kids will bring infections home and infect parents. That is 100% fact and has been proven.
Simple solution. Level5 everywhere now.
Shut up
They tell us they the R rate in Ireland is between 1.3 & 1.7, any chance they could tell us when Dubland and its 1.4 million people are excluded?
For gods sake, will people ever cop on
Open the pubs!
have your say