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A GARDA HAS been arrested this morning in connection with the leaking of information to the media in a high profile case involving children.
Two years ago two blonde Roma children, aged 2 and 7, were removed from their families over fears that they had been abducted.
The Ombudsman for Children Emily Logan issued a damning report on the case last July.
Following the report a Chief Superintendent was appointed to investigate issues raised relating to personal and sensitive information appearing in the public domain.
RTÉ is reporting that the garda arrested is the most senior officer ever to have been arrested as part of a criminal investigation.
The gardaí have confirmed that an investigation is on-going.
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My wife and I had to endure the heartbreak of having to travel to England when our darling son was diagnosed with a fatal featal abnormality. We wanted a child more than anything in the world and if there was a chance that he would have survived we would have been happy to take it but we were assured that it was not to be.
We didnt have very much money as I was not working at the time and we own a house in negetive equity but I was not going to let my wife and son suffer unnecessarily. We borrowed enough money to pay for flights over and the procedure. I still remember walking through a park in manchester on my own waiting for the procedure to finish. We had to wait till that evening to fly home. it was raining and we had nowhere to go so we paid for cinema tickets and sat in the theater. all we wanted to do was go home and grieve in peace.
It was an experience i will never forget. It was like adding insult to injury making us go to a foreign country like criminals. Having to hold our emotions while we fly home. Honestly, the worst part for me was the waiting around to get home and it was so unnecessary, How a country can let its citizens suffer so needlessly is beyond me. I love my son and think about him often. I dont regret what we did for a second. He was my son and we did what we thought was best for him, to insure he suffered no more.
Very moving account.
That’s heartbreaking JH. A horrible situation to begin with and our laws made it so much harder rather than being supportive. Thank you for sharing your personal experience, I don’t think some people realise how difficult it is for parents in that situation.
An interesting story although I fail to see how you can sex a featus at such an early stage of the pregnacy.
Chris you’re an insensitive fool and the sex of a fetus can be determined from 16-18 weeks
Chris, when we went for our first scan, the abnormality was discovered. we then were refered to holle street childrens hospital for further tests. This is when we were yold that the baby had no chance of survival. These test are able to pick up the sex of the baby. I assure you Chris, that the story os true.
You can find out the sex from as early as 14 weeks. You are very insensitive
You insensitive fool… do you honestly think they can tell from genetic testing that a fetus has a fatal abnormality and won’t survive to term but not the sex????
You can discern sex from a spot of blood or tissue too small to see with the naked eye.
Jh, you obviously went through a very stressful time and thanks for clarifying the abnormality. We had a similar situation concerning a misscarriage but were unable to determine the sex of the featus.
It seems that there are a few ill mannered and ignorant people here this morning, whom might think they what they are talking about re aborting a featus but i doubt it very much.
Chris, I found your sceptical query above bad mannered and ignorant. You quibbled with and queried a heartfelt and emotional account.
I enjoyed the cut and thrust of robust discussion here but there are a few crass and insensitive types such as you who can make it an unpleasant experience.
I’m sorry for your loss
Sorry Anthony, I hadn’t realised that there were so many squeamish people here. If we can’t even debate the realities of unwanted pregnancy then how on earth will we ever get our heads around legalising abortion.
Chris, I think people are irritated over your choice of words. You obviously weren’t aware that the sex of the foetus could be determined, and that’s fine. But you phrased it as if because you didn’t know, JH must be a liar. Just be a bit more careful with how you ask things.
I think it’s criminal that JH and his wife had to go through that. It’s absolutely unacceptable and we should be ashamed that we are in the same category as Afghanistan, Somalia and Uganda when it comes to some human rights. Even Saudi Arabia is ahead of us on this! Disgraceful.
How anyone can give JH a thumbs down is beyond me, must be 21 “unchristian” people out there. Thoughts are with you and your family JH.
I see that the political correctness crowd are here too. Choosing ones words more carefully sounds like something that might have been the case a few hundred years ago to avoid being branded a heretic. Welcome to the twenty first century Sean.
Chris Kirk
You said:
“an interesting story though I fail to see how you can sex the featus (sic) at such an early stage of the pregnancy”
You did fail. And you failed hard.
JH didn’t say what stage of the pregnancy the test was done. So your assumption that it was too early to tell is your undoing. For all you know they found out later in the pregnancy than you. Plus, you usually determine sex before you can diagnose FFA.
Your comment came across as accusatory, because you made an assumption. At least be man enough to accept that you came off as a heartless ass rather than whining about “political correctness” and making out like you have been wronged.
Chris I’d say blame at your stage would be needless. But that was so real and simple, I’m again angry. Do blame, blame the church, blame this fear mongering country and campaign unless it impedes your healing. I’m angry for you, for the occupation of my country by religion and putting a decent bloke like yourself through that misery. Shame, shame on ‘Irish ways and Irish laws. The church IS what has made people suffer, it ensured suffering
It wasn’t an unwanted pregnancy as you state chris… The child would have not lived after being born, maybe you should do some homework on the subject before making more stupid comments… Its clear they badly wanted a child & if he/she had any chance of survival they wouldn’t be travelling for an abortion… I’m all for debate but get your facts straight first
You have me reduced to tears, what a moving personal account of your sad journey, I couldn’t even to begin to imagine the pain & hardship this caused you both, thank you for sharing this & i hope you will have happy healthy children in the future you so badly want. The loss of a child in any circumstances is so painful.. Good luck to you both
FYI to some of the comments above the sex and other diagnosis can be determined from a blood test at 10wks gestation.
I’m sure changes would of been implemented years ago if technology had been developed. It’s easy to say your opinion and tell people what to do,but if your not in the situation you can’t possibly understand what it’s like for people to go through this.
Ireland keeping some shocking company there. Could not believe it when my Irish wife first told me about the restrictions here – medieval and barbaric that no abortions allowed even where foetus is not viable, rape or incest involved.
Well over in your part of the world they have whtas called late term abortions ..we will never see tha here I hope and its best if we maintain the current legislation…Abortion is a sin and anybody who condones it should be ashamed
Ever had an unwanted pregnancy? Then you don’t know what it is to have something eating you alive from inside. Those who claim to be ‘pro-life’ could take a stand against war & poverty, not against women’s rights.
Are you wearing chain mail and holding a sword and shield while you type that finbar?
Abortion is as hot a topic in the US as it is in Ireland. But Finbarr whatever about late term abortions, I specifically mentioned cases where the foetus will not survive, rape and incest. How abortion is not allowed even in those quite limited circumstances in a modern Western democratic society is just plain shocking to me.
I am all for taking a stand ..mine is against the destrution of babies
The Pope want’s us having more babies ,Finbarr.
Im wearing my heart Niall
You have an opinion finbarr, not a right to tell people with a different opinion what to do. A referendum would solve a lot of this arguing
The levels of children in the UK born with intellectual disabilities has fallen drastically due to abortion….. Now that’s barbaric.
When it comes to matters of life and death who gives a toss what other countries think. We protect the life of the unborn and should be proud of it.
“A sin”. Ha ha finbar the 1920s is looking for u
1920′s are calling for sure… What a disgraceful, outdated point of view.
@ Finbarr …. And who appointed you the moral police ? What people do when faced with an unwanted pregnancy, pregnancy as a result of rape, or pregnancy with an unviable foetus is their business. You keep to your belief but don’t dare to judge others and tell them what is or not a sin ! A passage from the bible actually reads ‘ judge not and thou shall not be judged ‘, or did you miss that part ? You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to force that opinion on others who feel differently.
Finbarr thinks the whole world is out to destroy Holy Catholic Ireland. Don’t get him started on Educate Together.
The term “on demand” is a hugely offensive term against the educated women of Ireland. It implies that women are not capable of making an informed choice of what is best for them and given the opportunity would just run about terminating pregnancies for fun. The 8th amendment also affects the treatment of women pursuing wanted pregnancies, it legally vindicates doctors to perform forced csection, episiotomy, induction, refusal of home birth even when the courts have proven that these things were unnecessary. This legislation affects women in so many ways and it is barbaric that we are still forced to ensure this
The Irish legislature on abortion stem’s from this principle: “We” feel that we should have control over what anyone chooses to do with their own bodies. Why? Because its our God given right. Pathetic
Hate to break it you but you don’t protect anything… You just humiliate women by forcing them to jump on a plane. Either way you cut it, whatever you do or say, people have freedom of movement and if a women so chooses… An abortion happens.
You hold zero control this is just a pathetic failed attempt at moral grandstanding and humiliation.
I’d prefer our current abortion laws to the U.S. Abortion laws. They’re offering abortions after the baby is born! I’m glad we respect all life and are unique in the developed world
Niall, the fact is that Ireland is not mature enough to have a referendum because we have been programmed into thinking that our bodies are owned by an invisible god that loves us and a powerful church that educates us in how we live our lives. The same church which defines children as a sex toy and takes pleasure out of screwing up their minds.
Mary McCarthy
What are you talking about? Finbarr has forced nothing on anybody. He has simply stated his position.
Cian, a fetus is not a child, I’ve seen you spouting some amount of guilt tripping on these articles before and that seems to be your best argument. You say you’re protecting the unborn but I fail to see how ruining one life (ie the mother’s, and more IMO sometimes) for something that isn’t even viable outside the womb.
I just can’t see how such a redundant law is still being upheld these days and still has people like yourself labelling anyone that is pro choice as condoning ‘murder’. It just does not make sense to me in this day and age.
The Journal yet again peddling the abortion-on-demand line. It’s little wonder there is so much opposition to any kind of abortion when articles like this appear in the manner as above.
During the week a case was heard for FFA and it was widely respected, but today the Journal and a cohort of lefties are not happy with that and want to push the boat out further and continue to do do on an almost daily basis.
It shows a total disrespect for the genuine people who painstakingly opened their hearts and poured out their horrific accounts when articles like this try and lump them in with the abortion-on-demand crowd. Shame on you Journal.
60 a day smokers get chemotherapy on demand for their lung cancer. Alcoholics get dialysis on demand. The obese get heart bypasses and stents on demand. What’s the difference between these people who are careless with their bodies than a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant?
You should be ashamed, writing that pile of horse**** Sin? Are you for real?
Finbar o cormac, You should be ashamed, writing that pile of horse**** Sin? Are you for real?
Im confused. If ireland is so pro life why are services for th disabled and their families so inadequate. Is this a case that we only want power over th unborn but not any responsibility over the quality of life of the children that are already here.
That seems to be situation Miriam, an unwanted pregnancy is not always a choice between a man and a woman. The state has determined that people are unable to reach circumstances decisions when it comes to choosing what is best for themselves.
I would say Miriam we aren’t pro life, pro birth is a more accurate description of the laws in Ireland.
Pro forced birth, fiachra. Once the birth has occurred, so called pro-lifers couldn’t give a damn and probably look down on the child as a little b@stard draining the welfare state for life of money that could go to nice, married parents with legitimate children.
Ireland is still ruled by the catholic church….
Rubbish ..the last time i checked whats ruling the roost in this Country are those from Atheist ireland …some shower they are
Don’t criticise other people or their religion or their lack of religion. Did your religion not teach you to treat others the way you would like to be treated
Athiests aren’t an organisation, they are just enlightened and skeptical of supernatural hocus pocus.
Grow up! That’s a nonsense comment. We gave up our right to govern ourselves when we entered Europe. Now all of a sudden we are displaying maps that show we are the odd ones out and should be more like them.
My parents taught me how to behave. All religion has ever done is teach myths, lies and delusion. The sooner we adandon prehistoric nonsense the better. People say that you need religion to be moral but this should not be the case.
Ye god damn the ruling Catholic Church introducing abortion and announcing a referendum on gay marriage! Still they have a stranglehold on us.
Unfortunately John there are a lot of people here that have not worked it out for themselves yet. How many more religious wars will it take before people stop to think and ask themselves the question, what is this god that drives people around the world to kill each other.
Some right effing dinosaurs in government – and on here – trying to keep women under the thumb. They care more about an old corpse on a stick than their fellow humans.
Yes that is an entirely factual statement. That’s why the Tanaiste is female, because she’s under the thumb.
Just because she is female, doesn’t stop her wanting to have an opinion like the old boys club. Any women who votes against allowing women carrying foetus with FFA have dignity is carrying out an agenda for politics, not for women and their families rights. Remember, even the Iona spanners have their token anti-equality gay men (it’s always men) to call on. That’s every, bar one, female politician on the govt side.
You’d hardly call Lucinda Creighton a dinosaur would you but her view would be contrary to yours.
We’re in the same list with Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Talk about preaching women’s freedom and lack of morals in these countries, right?
Actually if you look again Saudi Arabia has slightly more rights when it comes to abortion than we do. Shocking!
Or to spin it another way, we are one of the few countries who see’s the unborn children of the nation as something to be protected.
Or in an even more twisted spin, We are together with undemocratic nations who does not respect the will of the vast majority of the people by denying the basic right of a consultation
Last year the UK Telegraph newspaper, reported that over 15,000 foetuses, over a two years period, were incinerated, as ‘clinical waste’ – as part of a hospital heating system.
This along with terminations for minor conditions such as cleft palate etc. Countless numbers of terminations, based upon gender alone, have also happened in UK.
Irish media very silent when it comes to reporting these stories….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10717566/Aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-UK-hospitals.html
Zoe.
I suppose this will likely sicken you, but when no one claims an aborted foetus, what are the hospital / clinic supposed to do with it?
Prior to 6 months gestation it’s not eligible for a birth or death cert and so cannot be buried. What other options are there?
What do you propose? Given that these remains will still exist. And their disposal will cost money.
I know this will not be a popular statement, but I would prefer to deal in facts rather than emotional manipulation.
Shanti..
See thats the problem. The fact that a foetus is disposable…
Emotional manipulation?? Seriously? Developing human beings are killed, and then used for heating fuel. That is the fact we are dealing with. You think its manipulative to see something at the very very very least distasteful in that fact? The issue is that the ‘remains’ could have, and should have been people but for another human(s) intervening and purposely killing them. Is that factual enough for you, or do you really mean that you don’t like dealing with facts and prefer sophistry when it comes to the facts of abortion? You guys are the ones that love to deflect facts with ‘But what makes us truly human’, or ‘Yes its a human, but is it a person’ etc. The sophistry invented to deflect the facts. ‘Its not a baby, its a foetus’ Well, actually its both, foetus merely being more descriptive of the stage of development the young human is at. When you are seeking to legalise the choice as to whether to kill or let live the unborn though, it helps to use dehumanising language. Its why people hate to see the gory details of abortion on display too. So contrary to your claim, I find you and your pro abortion on demand cohorts like to do all you can to hide from the facts, while at the same time love to play the emotional card whenever you see an opportunity to do so.
Yup, it’s sad that the remains of aborted fetuses are disposable. But guess what? So is pretty much any human life. We have wars, we have people dying of hypothermia while homeless in the streets, we have people dying of malnutrition, people dying of all sorts of things there is no need for them to die of. Why? Because we are ALL disposable ultimately. The only thing that makes any of us worthwhile is the ones around us who wants us and care for us. In the grand scheme of things, not one of us matters. Do you think they respectfully bury every John or Jane Doe? Or do you reckon they’re cremated when no one claims them? Likely in the same incinerator that produces heat for the hospital.
Your crusade to preserve life is noble, and I appreciate it, but in case you hadn’t noticed, there’s only some of us who’s lives actually matter in this world, and it sure as hell ain’t us plebs. We are and always have been disposable. Why do you think the remains of an aborted foetus would be treated with any more respect than any one else?
Ireland on par with some of the worst countries in the world……well done
Abortion is prohibited entirely in Malta also.
And Andorra as well it seems.
“again and again”!?
You should check your facts. The Referendum in 1983 (i was 8) was the ONLY one that supported the” Pro-Life” agenda. The other two allowed women to travel and receive information.
And the youngest person that voted in 1983 is now in their 50′s.
You never hear people say we shouldn’t have rerun the Divorce Referendum.
Let’s give the people of this country who are CURRENTLY impacted by this legislation (you know, the ones getting pregnant) an opportunity to make THEIR voices heard. Cos mine sure as sh!t hasn’t been.
I think it’s time for a referendum. In every other respect the governments of the last 20 odd years have proven they really are not in touch with what the people of this country want and I think in this they are also failing people miserably. I am pro choice but I understand that abortion on demand would be a leap too far for some in this country, however, forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy that will result in the birth of a baby that can not possibly live is utterly barbaric. should the family themselves decide that they want to do that, well that’s their decision but I know of one case where it most certainly was not and they really could not afford the trip to England which was what they were told was their only other option therefore the continued pregnancy, birth and death of her child has been something she is still struggling to get over 4 years later.
Dell, what is the point of an abortion referendum if all you want os to be told that some terminations are legal and others are not. Where does choice come into the equation and why should a pregnancy have to go through a process of control by people who claim to ‘know best’. If the laws are not brought up to the same levels of most other EU countries then I think that a referendum would be a waste of time.
Embarrassing.
We’re keeping good company with archaic laws.
Embarrassing backward insular hole of a country.
In England you can kill the unborn without issue. You know where the door is to escape this “hole”.
Hate people constantly talking down this country, if you’re smart enough and want to work hard enough, you can do very well in this country (dont start any bull about who you know).
Anyway back on topic, Id be totally against abortion on demand here. However I’d be for abortion in the case of fetal fatal abnormalities. Being honest, I still dont know where I stand on rape and incest as I believe in that case you’re punishing the child for the wrongdoings of others.
Nobody is talking about abortion on demand.
Cian….I’ll stay here thank you very much and try lift this backward country out of the 1600′s, maybe you should leave for some theocratic state where your assumed right to interfere in the inalienable sovereignty of a woman’s body would be welcome.
Saudi Arabia maybe?
I think you’ll find that abortion on demand is the very reason that why many people are unwilling to move from their current view on abortion.
Despite it having absolutely nothing to do with abortion on demand?
Good argument.
Cain, good point. Abortion is legal and moral in Britiain. Go to England. Once outside the territorial waters, you approve. Excellent.
The referendum will not be on abortion “on demand”…that’s a sly move by the laughingly titled pro life group, the same rabble who warned about abortions for everyone once the Lisbon treaty #2 was ratified.
Of course that what it’s all about. The reason there’s so much dragging of feet with regards to abortion is the fear that any leeway on abortion will lead to abortion on demand. The pro choice sides ultimate aim is abortion on demand. Fair enough this referendum may not explicitly be about full abortion on demand but there will be many who have it as the ultimate goal.
Who’s fearing what?
The only fear I sense is from fine gael who would rather remain in a group of theocratic cavemen states than risk losing one vote from a craw thumping, bead rattling farmer who thinks a primitive book full of murder written by primitive goat herders is the blueprint for morality.
By the way, the fear I’m talking about is that pro life side’s fear that ultimately this will lead to abortion on demand. Thought I made that fairly clear….
And again the default position of the pro choice person is to attack a person’s religion. And before you say it, I’m not letting religion dictate my views on anything. That’s why I’m voting Yes in May before you accuse me on some religious close minded bigotry.
Dermot, what kind of abortion are you refering to if it isn’t the choice of the woman carrying the unwanted featus. Surely people are to be given the freedom to decide for themselves over an unwanted pregnancy that we should be mature enough to carry the consequences afterwards without being told that it was right or wrong.
I’m not accusing you of anything, I’m staying that the reason behind this reluctance to offer women inalienable sovereignty over their own bodies is based largely on religious views, it’s high time we threw off this yoke.
Chris….The woman’s right to terminate a fetus that has no chance of survival outside the womb is a no brainer, why should people who probably don’t know the unfortunate woman dictate to her what she’s allowed do?
“Inalienable sovereignty over their bodie” honestly where do you people pull this sh**e? What about the tiny body inside the woman? Who speaks for it? Also no one has “inalienable sovereignty over their bodies”, see our prostitution and drug laws for countless examples.
@ Cain Doherty mother speaks for the “tiny body”dy, her choice.You should be more concentrated on your own body because you’re overweight.
That comment isnt on Chuck’s bar.
Yes Cian, what about that baby? Prior to week 20 if you remove it from the womb it will die. It literally cannot survive, even with the best neo natal care. It is contingent upon being inside that woman, so until then – she is the only one who is capable of making any choices. And the one who has to actually experience all of it as the foetus isn’t conscious yet.
Her autonomy matters, because pregnancy is not strictly benign, it can throw up all sorts of complications – ones that women should be able to decide whether they wish to take those risks.
But hey, it’s not like they matter to you is it.
Cian was calling others “spastics” earlier what’s sauce for the fat goose…
The company ireland has on this list only confirms the value this counrty puts on the lives of women. Misogyny rules ok
I wouldn’t want an abortion for any women in most cases, but it’s not my call to make. That’s why I take the moderate position of being pro-choice. If you believe personhood should be applied to unborn humans, that’s fine, no point in arguing with you, don’t have an abortion. But if you don’t believe that, or if you need an abortion for whatever reason, you should have safe, confidential, affordable and nonjudgmental access to an abortion.
It’s better than the alternative of death, suicide, having to spend thousands to travel to the UK or dangerous “back-alley” abortions.
I find it kind of strange that there are more men posting and pushing their views on here than women. I’d like to hear more of their opinions on which way legislation should go, considering they are the ones with the wombs and it’s their body at the end of the day.
Most comments on most storied are from men. Yet on nearly every single abortion story (and God knows there’s enough) some genius finds this “interesting” all of a sudden.
Eh no I didn’t say “interesting” I said I find it kind of strange. Because its a gender related article I caught my eye. And thanks for calling me a genius! How very kind of you on valentines too!! Do you have some facts or figures there to prove your point maybe?
Agreed Mossy. post menopausal women and baron women shouldn’t have a say either.
Baron women? You mean Baronesses? I’m not sure I see why they should be excluded because they have a title.
People like Finbar make the conversation around Abortion so difficult. In fact the extreme views on either side make it very difficult for rational people to discuss change. I have many concerns about Abortion on demand, however it is clear that our current laws are not suitable. Woman should not be faced with the indignity of having to travel abroad should they feel they need to abort a pregnancy. Women should have the right to choose what they want, hopefully though it would entail discussing options with relevant medical personnel or therapists before making the ultimate decision.
I would submit that there is only one side with extreme views.
Why? Because there is nothing “extreme” about advocating that a woman should be allowed to control her own reproductive system.
Most of the developed world has very liberal abortion laws which are the socially accepted norm. Does that mean those countries are populated mostly by extremists?
Of course it doesn’t. The only extremists here are the people who tell women they have to remain pregnant against their will.
Hear hear John,
It’s impossible to be extreme about wanting people to make their own choices and decisions about what happens to them. What is extreme is expecting your own morals to be forced on others by law.
A woman can control her own reproductive system, its called; not having sex if you dont want to have a baby.
While on the surface of it that is sound logic, it’s sort of like abstinence only sex education. In that it’s about as realistic as the whole wafers becoming Jesus literal flesh because the priest says some words.
Not all women wish to become mothers, pregnancy is not safe for all women. Are you suggesting that those women remain celibate their entire lives to satisfy YOUR morals?
Enda Kenny was right a referendum might be needed and next government will need to address these issues on abortion.
However if you believe like me life begins at conception then Ireland stands as a beacon to some countries where you can have an abortion because it’s not right for you right now or some other sick reason. Men sadly leave their responsibility in creating a life and for a young girl it must be awful but there’s also an innocent unborn baby. If you don’t take that into account you’re choosing one life over another.
I don’t pretend this is easy.
And what a “beacon” it is, along with other such liberal democratic human rights sanctuaries, Libya, Egypt, Mali and Nigeria.
“However if you believe like me life begins at conception”
What about the people who don’t share that belief?
The problem with your belief and the rest of the pro life side is that they want to enforce that beliefs on everyone else…….heaven forbid that people were free to make a choice based on a different set of beliefs
“Young girl” that f&(king paternalistic attitude can go and die in a fire. Women of all ages are capable of making their own minds up and I speak as a 30 year old mother to a 15 year old son… I chose to parent but I’m 100% pro choice. And the largest group of women having terminations are over 20, many of them mothers already.
If you believe that life begins at conception then you believe a hyatidiform mole is life but a twin is not.
Life begins at conception is not a belief, it’s a scientific fact.
thats a philosophical argument not a scientific one
“I don’t pretend this is easy.”
It’s very easy for men like you Patrick. You literally come and go. Your part in the pregnancy is done. The sick thing is that men like you seek to control women by denying them the choice to do what they want to do after you’ve gotten off. In order to stop men like you creating unwanted pregnancies, don’t have sex with women… at all.
Epsilon.
The second monozygotic twin doesn’t form at conception. It can take anything from 1 to 9 days. So where does their life start? Are they really alive?
By comparison, a molar pregnancy begins at conception. But it won’t result in a baby. It may result in cancer though. Are you saying that molar pregnancies should be carried to term? After all, most of the ones studied have biparental genomic contribution, or “unique DNA” as those who like to throw that definition around unaware of how ridiculous it sounds would put it.
If “life begins at conception” is indeed a scientific fact, then they are using a different definition of the term “life” to you. The term “life” in science is far more vague than perhaps you mean it.
Whither you believe it or not, it is true life begins at Conception
Life started millions of years ago and has been a continuous process ever since.
Life includes the bacteria in your stomach and the fungus growing on the damp spot in the bathroom.
Yes, when you’re being that vague, life does start at conception. But does that mean it should supercede the actually living, breathing, sentient being it is gestating within?
Well facts are facts and life does begin at conception. It may be two cells but it is technically life. So I say believe but really it’s science
And we all know science is objective. Therefore abortion is the killing of a foetus which is very much alive. I never said this was an easy issue.
No you are very wrong . It can be philosophical to decide what constituency “a life” but scientifically life begins at conception. It may be unrecognisable to a new born baby but hard fact life in its most basic form begins at conception.
Dear daisy
I take offence that you assume I have got someone pregnant and walked away. You should apologise.
I do accept as I have already said it is too easy for men to have their cake and eat it for want of a better expression.
Okay abortion only to be allowed within the first 24 hrs of pregnancy. Silly argument and check you facts. Life begins at conception as a sperm cell enters the female egg and it is then that nature starts working it is life. Life.
The Journal was very quiet this week on the deaths off hose poor babies in Portuonilca hospital in the west
Finbarr.. what about all the babies found dead that were in care of the catholic church ! Have you anything to say about that…. this country is still influenced by the catholic church and it needs to move away from that. It’s a women’s choice, I’m sure the majority don’t want an abortion but sometimes it’s the only choice for them.
You recon the should have the choice to Murder their Babies in their Wombs.
What about the Babies if they had a Choice, They would Choose LIFE.
No, they wouldn’t choose anything. Because at the stage the majority are aborted they aren’t capable of thought.
The woman on the other hand, is. And she can feel too.
It would seem that the journal.ie is a very pro choice publication. Our current government has said that they will not be dealing with the matter, but the journal’s agenda would seem to be full steam ahead. They do seem to do that with a lot of topics, this non contextual reporting in order to push their agendas. But that’s the power that be in their hands with as they do have a big following so good luck to them!
I suppose this would be a good example of the media reporting to their agenda rather than reporting the actual news, like a bus the bus crash that just killed 16 people in Mexico.
What gave it away? I don’t think I’ve ever read a pro life article or column on the journal. They only chose articles that reflect abortion in a good light.
Because it’s an Irish news site with a majority of irish news and topics.
Put your money where your mouth is and have a referendum. What are you afraid of if you say that the media does not portrait the opinion of the overwhelm majority of voters. Lets talking and more action. Objecting to a referendum knowing that your side of the argument is the clear winning says that maybe, just maybe, you belong to the minority and want to turn blind eyes to the will of the majority.
Bad things happen all over the world so the Journal needs to stop printing articles on abortion?
The Journal isn’t the state broadcaster, so they don’t have to report an equal agenda… or be censored by the likes of you.
I can assure you the journal have published pro life opinion pieces. You only need to search for them rather than making assumptions and looking like a fool.
As for non opinion pieces, if the journal publish abortion related articles it’s because they generate a lot of traffic, and as they’re funded by advertising revenue (otherwise you’d need to pay for access) they will use certain topics to generate traffic. If you don’t like it, don’t contribute to it.
Also, reporting facts is a neutral thing, so if the above offends you, perhaps you should stop to consider precisely why that is.
Strict? My understanding that it is now available on demand if you feel suicidal & until the moment of birth. This whole savage farce of this week is heartbreaking – particularly under the circumstances.
How many have we had under this totally restrictive legislation? Most women go across to the UK.
@helen, we are told over 5000 Irish women are going abroad each year to have an abortion, now that’s just women giving Irish addresses, added to that are those not giving Irish addresses, those using home remedies, those using the interned to get medication. Since the turn if the century over 75,000 Irish women have had abortions, that is the population of Galway. Irish women are have abortions Helen, we as a nation need to grow up and deal with the abortion issue and stop exporting it. Our government are spineless. They would rather inflict even more trauma in women with fatal foetal abnormalities than address the issue. Shame on them.
Ye the journal really giving away the editorial agenda with that headline. Not that it’s a shock at this stage.
I’m always amused when people people moan about an “editorial agenda”.
So you’ve noticed that this news site has an editorial stance; well done. But you haven’t revealed some giant conspiracy. Every publication has an editorial stance; there is nothing new or unusual about that.
If you don’t agree with a publication’s stance, get your news from elsewhere.
John journalist are supposed to be impartial, there shouldn’t be an editorial agenda in play they should report the news not try and make it.
I wonder will thejournal send Aoife Barry along to the next march for life with the NUJ because both attended the last pro abortion rally.
Really? It’s on demand if you say you’re suicidal?
I think Miss Y would beg to differ. Seeing as they agreed she was suicidal and still forced her to have a C section.
“journalists are supposed to be impartial”
Tell me you’re not that naive! Believe that if you wish, but for those of us who live in the real world a little discretion is needed when choosing where we get our news from.
There’s reasons I don’t read the Daily Mail or watch Fox News.
“No I’m not that naive that’s why I was calling the journal on its liberal bias in the first place.”
Oh I’m sure the Journal cares!
“Spastic.”
Real mature Cian; I’m always amused to see how easily so called “pro lifers” descend into name calling once their claims are debunked. Obvious evidence of a frustration stemming from a lost argument.
What a horrible word that you used there,Cian .
Cian… aren’t you the little charmer. Is that what you call a child with a disability?
Never breed. Please. The sooner your nasty, ignorant dna is obliterated from the genepool, the better for humanity.
Cian.
Every private media publication is free to publish whatever they like from whatever political stance they like. This is called freedom of the press.
RTE are obliged to present both sides because they are funded from public money and are therefore not permitted an editorial bias. They have one anyway, it’s as plain as the nose on your face, but they’re not supposed to. The thing you’re giving out about (in the journal appearing to be pro choice) would be an editorial slant, not journalistic bias.
What a journalist is supposed to do is present the facts. Can you point to anything in this piece that is not factual?
If a journalist starts making inferences based upon no hard evidence and is merely drawing from their own opinion, that is journalistic bias.
(Unless it’s an opinion piece, in which case the clue is in the name. Opinion pieces are always biased one way or the other, same as every opinion.)
In the 32 years since the damned 8th amendement came into being 12 women a day have travelled abroad for abortion. That’s over 140,000 making the ban a joke. We export our dirty little secrets so a bunch of hypocrites can smugly declare Ireland “abortion free”. The ban doesn’t save anyone. On the contrary, it kills women.
We need rid of it now so women can freely discuss with their medical practicioner what they want to regarding their pregnancy and their bodies without interference.
Anyone taking bets on how long the AG will stay in Office?
End this cruscade for abortion now..Never ..Never…Never
what about fatal foetal abnormality where the baby has no chance to servive out side the womb
once you water down abortion in becomes more obvious that it will lead to it been on demand…Never…never…never
If you don’t want abortion don’t have one (being male means that it’s really none of your business what women do anyway). Irish women have been having abortions by the thousands for decades in the UK. The least we can do is support them at what is a massively venerable time. Or we can just sweep things under the rug like the religious orders favour
That’s the problem really and the pro choice are partly to blame.
The pro life side rightly don’t want to give the pro choice side an inch because they have always stated that their goal is abortion on demand. It means that cases where both sides agree that abortion should be available becomes a red line.
Ian Paisley….is…..is that you??
what has religon ot to do with your argument
“If you don’t want an abortion don’t have one”…did you come up with that all on your own? Haven’t heard it before. Muppet.
Because it is the main driver for the subjugation of women
Superb rebuttal.
Says the guy who went with the 2nd year CSPE nonsensical argument.
“The pro life side rightly don’t want to give the pro choice side an inch because they have always stated that their goal is abortion on demand”
I know! Wouldn’t that be terrible, allowing women to control their own reproductive systems; you know like most of the developed world and a good chunk of the developing world.
@Cian Doherty please be so kind and define “Democracy” in your own words. Last time I’ve checked it supposed to be implementation of majority wins, irrespectively of how strongly against you are against the majority. So a quick question, in your own words, how can you have a democracy respecting the will of the majority and keep you happy?
Well Saul by your definition we shouldn’t need anymore abortion referendums seeing as how the majority has already decided what our abortion laws should be.
Exactly, and the law passed with less restrictions. But they didn’t asked the question the majority wanted to be asked so it was voted as a consolation price. A half baked referendum, better than nothing is not enough. Ask the real question of legalising abortion like in The UK and see how will that go. What are you afraid of, if people agrees with you then what’s the worry?
Er, Cian.
In 1983 the 8th was added.
In 1992, the X case happened, and the 12th, 13th, & 14th amendments were put the the people.
More people voted in 1992 than voted in 1983, and they voted against the removal of the suicide clause, and voted to enshrine a woman’s right to go overseas for an abortion and to get information on abortion services overseas in the Constitution.
If you’re talking majorities it was a larger one that voted against further restrictions and guaranteed the right to travel.
We have not been given any opportunity to widen abortion access in this country. We have had two referendums (4 amendments) since the 8th was passed that sought to further restrict access and in every one of them the majority voted against these restrictions.
Perhaps you need to learn more about what the people have actually voted (and FYI, the proportion of voters voting not to exclude suicide was largely in line with those voting for travel and information, these articles are also contained within 40.3.3, and were in response to the X case, so trying to claim that they were “bamboozled pro lifers voting for general travel and information unrelated to abortion” is not believable).
I can’t condone abortion for any reason however I will never be in the shoes of someone who feels it’s their only way out so neither can I judge. I would hate to see an on demand abortion available in Ireland but we have had all the referendums already. Again and again we vote this down, my worry is that it will eventually be voted in on a small margin, be knee jerk type wording, never be voted on again and cause more problems than it solves.
Oh and Mr USA if you think US is such a great country why are you here? Try not to judge us for being backwards when backwards was kind enough to have you here for a break from the country at war with most of the known world.
Please read about the abortion referendums in this country because you don’t seem to understand what we voted for.
I’ll help you, look up the 12th, 13th, 14th and 25th amendments, all of which happened since the 8th was passed. You’ll notice the 12th and 25th were rejected, both sought to further restrict access. The 13th and 14th were passed, and are addendums to article 40.3.3, they guarantee a woman’s right to travel and information (related to abortion).
Far from repeatedly voting it down, we actually voted to allow women travel for abortions are rejected all calls to remove the suicide clause made famous in the X case. This is actually the opposite of the conclusion you appear to have drawn.
We have never been asked to widen abortion access in this country.
Saudi Arabia’s more tolerant on the issue. Shocking stuff.
Shows what great company we keep. Map isn’t 100% accurate though as in Iran abortions are allowed in cases of fatal featal abnormalities and when the mothers life is at risk,subject to approval by three medical professionals and a medical centre. Why can’t we have a similar system for approval to prevent the trauma this country puts people through when they find themselves in similar situations?
Let’s all agree to disagree?
When I pressed the link “Woman jailed for miscarrying her baby is released” it went to the article about Varadkar claiming that there’s no mandate for an abortion referendum came up.
Bad Company
Strange that the UK isn’t on the list
Actually it’s not strange. No-one wants to draw attention to the fact that the UK hypocritically ignores its own laws
I think it’s more likely to be because Great Britain and Northern Ireland (separately to reflect the differences) are on the lists
People like Clare Daly thinks it is Better to Murder the Baby, Than give a Chance to see how long it Would Live.
Abortion is Murder.
No. Murder is murder. They have different names because they mean different things. Are you familiar with the concept of a dictionary?
Poraic!…a somewhat extemist view, don’t you think?
SPUC off!
Could this be any more one-sided and campaigney!
Can you point to anything that is not true?
have your say