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Updated at 12.50pm
PRO-CHOICE ACTIVISTS are to deliver illegal abortion pills to women across the country over the next two days as part of a campaign to repeal the eighth amendment.
The Socialist Party’s Rosa campaign group left Dublin this morning on board a bus carrying the World Health Organisation-approved drugs.
The bus will stop in Galway for a lunchtime rally at the Spanish Arch before heading to Limerick for a demonstration on O’Connell Street.
Organisers will travel on to Cork tomorrow morning, where a protest will be held on Winthrop Street, and return to Dublin for a final rally in the afternoon.
The group says women with unwanted pregnancies will be able to access pills on the bus after completing a Skype consultation with doctors from Dutch pro-choice group Women on Web, which distributes abortion drugs to countries where abortion is illegal or restricted.
“We are bringing this issue to the people most affected by the eighth amendment, ordinary women across the country who face difficulties travelling abroad for a legal abortion,” Rosa activist Rita Harrold said.
We want those women to know that there are safe options available.
She added: “Abortion is going to be a big issue in the next general election.
It’s the first since Savita [Halappanavar]‘s death and it’s an opportunity for women to say, ‘You know what? We aren’t living in 1950s anymore. We’re not going to support politicians that won’t let us make decisions about our own lives.’
It is illegal under Irish law to take and distribute abortion pills.
The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act states that any person found guilty of “intentionally destroy[ing] unborn human life” is liable to a fine or imprisonment for up to 14 years.
In a protest last year, Rosa travelled to Belfast to bring abortion pills back to Dublin, where Coppinger and other activists swallowed the tablets outside Connolly Station.
Organisers said the journey was inspired by the “contraceptive train” of 1971, when members of the Irish Women’s Liberation Movement travelled to Northern Ireland to buy contraceptives that were then illegal in the Republic.
Criticism
The Irish Pro Life Campaign yesterday criticised the group’s latest move, calling it “an irresponsible stunt”.
“This is just the latest publicity stunt from Deputy Coppinger. But it is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible one that puts the lives of women at serious risk,” spokesperson Ruth Cullen said.
Those lending their support to the abortion pill bus have no credibility talking about women’s health in the context of the abortion debate going forward.
It is one thing to constantly misrepresent the eight amendment as Deputy Coppinger does. It’s quite another thing to use an abortion pill bus as a means of attracting publicity.
The more outrageous the stunt the better, as long as it helps dismantle the eight amendment, seems to be the thinking. The stories of those who regret their abortions are being drowned out of the debate as well as the rights of the unborn child.
The Life Institute has also hit out at the protest, saying that it showed “abortion extremists” were “playing fast and loose with women’s lives”.
“It is disturbing to see that abortion campaigners are so careless with safeguarding women’s lives,” spokesperson Niamh Uí Bhriain said.
Sadly, for many abortion extremists, this is about an ideology and not about actually helping women.
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If you are going to take an abortion pill you really should do it safely, and talking to a doctor on Skype who has no information about any previous health conditions you may have is not sensible. Taking an abortion pill is not like taking paracetamol. We have to be sensible about this, and promoting pills prescribed online is not sensible.
This campaign is to highlight the dreadful position that we put women into who wish to control their own bodies. The “let them get the boat” is an Irish solution for those who do not have a problem. I would love to hear what your solution is to the real problem that some women face and quite often face it alone.
You think that it’s Ok to potentially harm a woman to highlight a point? How is this better than telling women to go to the UK? It’s irresponsible. At least in the UK in NHS hospitals they have a proper consultant who looks after them. The solution is not to encourage women to take potentially dangerous pills to make a point. It’s to educate women about how to look after themselves, and then work towards a responsible solution. To promote basically self harm to ‘highlight’ a campaign is disgraceful
Totally agree that we need to “work towards a responsible solution” but the campaign highlights that there is no solution in Ireland and if the Pro Life group get their way there will never be a solution only a boat trip. Women in Ireland who find themselves pregnant and do not want to be pregnant have no choice.
How are these potentially dangerous?
the UK introduced contraception. increase in abortions. spent decades telling girls to take control of their bodies. what education are the introducing to UK schools now ? they’re telling them to have children when young to avoid fertility problems. never-ending problems.
@Peter. There was a case earlier this year in the states where a woman took the pills in a much later stage of pregnancy and very nearly died – that’s how they are potentially dangerous.
I am strongly pro choice and believe that this pill should be available but with proper medical supervision.
Coppinger and co managed to procure a large number of these before after online consultations. This was despite the fact that no one, as far as I know, was pregnant. Either they lied during their consultation or the doctors didn’t ask questions. However, it highlighted the fact that the medical consultations are not rigorous. It would be easy for someone at 5 or 6 months of gestation to get these after speaking to a doctor on skype, take them without medical supervision and die.
If you take any medication without consulting your doctor, you are putting your health at risk. It’s irresponsible. Would you take cytotoxic cancer drugs to protest over their cost? Of course not, so why should this be any different
But women are doing exactly that, they are ordering online, or going to clinics abroad and risking their lives. I’m no fan of Ruthie – but it’s unfair to say that she’s electioneering, this issue needs to be resolved.
Great to highlight an important issue for women….I wonder if they will also stop off and ask why in the 21 centuary women and little girls (not the guys mind you) have to cover in black tents in the name of religion and are considered to be the property of of their husbands (a bit like their cars)…..I font think Ruth and her buddies will ask the awkward questions, at least not of that religion (or any other that treat females brood mares)
Everytime you see a new doctor your seeing someone who doesn’t know your medical history. How often have you gotten the same doctor in A&E. Skype or in person, these are trained consultants who actually work in this field and will ask the same questions they would ask in person. They are more qualified in thsi area than any doctor in Ireland. No womans lives are in danger, at least not anymore than they would be in a doctors office. And irresponsible would be casually looking the other way while some woman travels to your nearest neighbors to get a service that is widely available even in developing countries.
These pills are sold over the counter in the UK, no prescription needed
@Bill Madden
Exactly Bill. Feminists and (white) women of power & influence have absolutely no interest in the plight of their Muslim sisters. In fact these women do not consider Islam and Muslim men a problem. To change Islam we have to free the women from their subjugation inside that so called religion! The enemy as far as our feminists and the women in high positions are concerned is the “white male controlled” Western Society. I brand modern day feminism as cowardly and self centred.
This is a publicity stunt, like the trip to Belfast. Although i agree with the message, it is not as easy as ‘picking up’ some abortion pills in northern Ireland, i don’t know where they got the pills but im sure they didn’t get them in Belfast that easily.
yea, lets say nothing about the yolks for sale the length and breadth of the country that both men and women will take with no input as to a)what is in them or b) what harm they will do, taken just to have fun. Your fear is directed toward a pill that has the potential to allow a woman a choice over whether she gets literally screwed by a man for perpetuity. Biased. Some women didn’t choose the sex that led them there in the first place you know.
Above all else, it would be great to not see Ruth Coppinger jumping another bandwagon, be it a train or squat or otherwise.
Bill and Vince
Here’s a link explaining the Socialist Party position on the oppression of women under the guise of Islam:
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/1116
“Of course, there are countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and parts of Northern Nigeria and Afghanistan where to different extents women are not only forced to wear the headscarf or the veil but where religion is used as a disguise to carry out the most reactionary, brutal and repressive attacks against the working class and the female population in particular. This often entails the endorsement or toleration of religiously motivated stonings, forced marriages, honour killings and female circumcisions. Recently, women and workers in Iraq have also resisted attempts to introduce Sharia law through the US-drafted ‘Consitution’.
Women who take a heroic and brave stand against those measures and protest against the enforced wearing of the headscarf, because they see it as an expression of oppression in those countries, live under completely different conditions than in the West and should be supported in pursuing their struggle.
There is a common aspect to the struggles in the advanced capitalist countries and the neo-colonial world, which socialists are obliged to draw out. Capitalist governments or imperialist powers are never the allies of the working class and the poor in their struggle for liberation and emancipation, either in the west or in the neo-colonial world. The hypocrisy of the ruling class is obvious when looking at events in Afghanistan. Imperialist forces backed the Taliban when it suited them and withdrew their support when the Taliban no longer served their interests. They then suddenly discovered that amongst other crimes, the Taliban were oppressing women and therefore had to be removed. Today, in large parts of Afghanistan, women are facing conditions which are hardly any different to the pre-war situation. Imperialism is unwilling and unable to rebuild a society in Afghanistan which provides the possibility for women, as well as for the rest of the poor masses, to have access to education, decent jobs and housing.
In the same way as we oppose any compulsory measures in the West, socialists would engage in a struggle alongside women who have come to the conclusion that they want to fight and oppose the compulsory wearing of the hijab, the burka, the veil and all other restrictions and elements of women’s oppression connected with religion.”
@Amy
Wouldn’t it be marvelous country we lived in where all women could afford to travel by boat or plane to access abortion abroad ??
How many women live under the poverty line in Ireland? How many do not have €3,000 access abortion in the UK?
I can understand why women like yourself, privileged position not to take abortion pills under supervision of a doctor, but Amy, thousands women in Ireland do not have that option.
As such, instead of condoning allowing women who have NO access to abortion abroad, we could support such radical action??
If you truly are just concerned for women safety, why don’t set up a doc fund page, any women who consumes abortion pill, can access money to visit GP afterwards for check up??
This bus will reach the most Vulnerable women in our society, who are you or I deny them access to abortion because of poverty ??
@Wally
There are always a lot “sound bites” about the barbaric conditions Muslim women live under, but that’s all there ever is. There absolutely no support for Muslims, male and female, who dare to question the Quran about its authorship and it’s contents. FFS even in the Land of The Free the term “Honour Killing” is never used to describe the murder of young American Muslim women by their fathers, brothers and uncles in case it upsets the Muslim community! We had our own ex President who is forever sticking one into the back of the Pope and the Catholic Church heading over to the Middle East and submitting to wearing the Hi-jab. I am not aware of her making any attack on Islam about it’s treatment of women? Please someone point out to me where Western feminists & female women of power have agitated about how Muslim women are treated? Hillary Clinton, Condoleeza Rice, Madeleine Albright, what have they done nada nada nada! We have women young and old of the Muslim ideology living in Ireland who’s every minute of their lives are controlled by their families and husband, wtf is Ruth Coppinger doing about these females? Me thinks SFA. If you are a true feminist it is the women inside Islam should be your priority! Even Germaine Greer the Queen of Feminism when pushed on the issue of the women inside Islam was not very forthcoming in her condemnations. Her response was that trying to change another culture is “tricky” and we should sort out everything here (in the West) first! She also when asked as to why she does not go to Darfur to talk to rape victims there where things are so much wore than here in Australia she replied “Who says it is”? There you have it, the head up the proverbial feminist culo!
@Wally
Just read that article from 2004 very interesting. But considering how things are in 2015 i’m afraid not much has been done. In fact things have gone into reverse and Islam is regressing back to the 7th century instead of heading towards the 21st! Western society is afraid to tackle the “sexism” inside Islam that resides inside their own Islamic communities.
Western feminists these days are only worried about what they perceive to be happening over their heads. They wanted to access Portmarnock Golf Club simply as they felt that where’s some form of power resided. They talk about the gender pay gap as if it exists, and is real and tangible, yet not a single major economist in the world agrees with them. Nor does anyone else that has examined the figures from the OECD to the CSO.
Nor will they take on the travelling community and they never have, despite research showing the incidence of DV is multiples that of the settled community and they know this, arranged marriages are standard, and there’s an ‘ownership’ mentality alive and well too.
Will they touch that? Not a hope.
I can see that “feminist” looking in the mirror I have put up in front of them,do not like what they see! Suck it up cos that’s how it is! Truth hurts I know, particularly when you feel that you are doing “your best” for the Worlds womanhood! Take your heads out of the muck boys and girls. Go out and “really” challenge Islam head on about how it treats it’s females! That would be real feminism!
Just crossed my mind, that maybe it’s the Clonskeagh brigade that our out in force this morning in order to thumbs down any negative comments about Islam?
Or maybe it’s people who can see that you’re concern trolling in the wron thread.
@Daisy
I have better things to be doing than trolling. It is not the wrong thread as “The Bus” relates to feminism and it’s agenda or should I say the lack of it. Instead of maybe making wasteful inane comments on supposed trolling maybe you would like to debate the issues I brought up? Oh sorry, you are too busy fighting for entrance to “men only” clubs as touched on above!
Criminal irresponsibility by a group of women. What medical insurance and follow-up counseling is this group providing.
In case you are looking at taking such medication, see what Master of the Routunda, Dr Sam Coulter Smith has to say. No more than taking stuff from a “Head Shop”, these chemicals are not without risk.
http://www.herald.ie/news/seek-help-if-abortion-pill-leads-to-issues-top-doctor-30701137.html
I know I will stay away from the Death Bus.
Good luck to you if you chance popping pills!
Vince,
Do you accept you were incorrect when you accused Ruth Coppinger and the other ROSA activists of having “absolutely no interest in the plight of their Muslim sisters” ?
pro choice all the way.
There should better options than this but for the women and girls of Ireland today this is their only option. Disgraceful isn’t it? #repealtge8th
No I was correct…agendas are great yokes….show me the actions, particularly here in Ireland? When has she ever specifically mentioned Muslim women either here or in Ireland? I am not anti Ruth Coppinger or the left, I just think that this “Magic Bus” ride is not where her priorities should be when it coming to the emancipation of women. Particularly those women living in the 3rd World and inside Islamic culture!
Vince, it’s not a case of either or.
The almost absolute prohibition of abortion and the Eight Amendment are a vivid emblem of the legal inferiority of women in Ireland, according to the law.
No Fiona its a case of getting your priorities right.
Can you clarify what you mean by “educate women how to look after themselves” please.
That’s not true when you go to A&E one of the first things that will happen is the doctor will ask for your records to be brought down and they can also contact your GP for records
When I say ‘educate women how to look after themselves’ I mean a doctor who has time to sit and give them all the information about what the abortion pill will do to their body, and we teach them about possible side effects and about follow up care to make sure they stay healthy. I know we say that going to England is only for the rich, and I agree that it rules some people out, but we have to ensure that every women knows the effects abortion has on their body, the same as the contraceptive pill. Like I said, its not a paracetamol tablet. Many women who would decide to have an abortion may be in a panic, may have never thought of abortion before or read up on even what campaigners are saying about it now. They need to have full information available to them about what an abortion pill is, and I dont think women on web are giving responsible education. Yes, we need a change in the law to do that, I am aware of that. However jumping around on a bus encouraging women to take a pill from a politician is not educating them. I dont think anyone can disagree with the idea of women being aware of all aspects of abortion and being informed so they can take care of themselves.
In other word Ruth coppinger using women’s crisis situation as part of her election campaign
spot on
Ruth Coppinger is only concerned with her own publicity. A bit like Paul Murphy, a one trick pony.
ooh not a very popular thing to say on here PC. Do you not know Paul Murphy is regarded as a God around here.
considering she’s only been a td a short while, and has been fairly vociferous and consistent each month on women’s rights, I wouldn’t call it electioneering. this coincides with a larger campaign to repeal the 8th amendment, while making women aware of the women-on-web programme. the sole purpose of this is to show young women that they do not have to wait until they get the courage/money to take the flight to the UK to be able to terminate a pregnancy safely, and I wish more elected TDs were on board (most can’t get over the fact we are fornicating to begin with). the only unsafe aspect of this stunt is that some women will think this is their only chance of getting access to these pills. a far safer environment would be for GPs to be able to prescribe them directly after a direct assessment, but our country is too backwards/religiously-persuaded/childish to allow this safe approach.
This will be an election issue for me and many more so it’s nice to know where she actually stands. The rest of them need to take this more seriously.
It is a complete nonsense to suggest this will be an election issue. The IT MRBI research back in September showed what voters were concerned about and Healthcare, followed by Homelessness topped the list. Further on down the list was PS pay and childcare> Abortion didn’t even poll.
she’s only doing this to win votes
Of course she is Suzi same as Paul champagne Murphy,
Preying on the lesser educated areas of society for cheap votes and the sad thing is, it’s working
There are plenty of reactionaries in Ireland.
Will Ruth Coppinger will take personal responsibility for every woman who takes the pill? irresponsible publicity campaign.
TBH there isn’t much going on upstairs there. I heard her being interviewed by Sean Moncrief it was like listening to a 5 year old child trying to explain gravity.
What about the doctors who practise medicine over Skype? Totally irresponsible.
Do publicans take personal responsibility for every drunkard? Do chemists take personal responsibility for anyone who misuses prescription or OTC drugs?
Daisy.. Publicans or Chemists cannot be responsible for people who “abuse” their OTC drugs and alcohol. Ruth Coppinger is advertising these pills as safe so obviously she should be responsible if some woman has an adverse reaction
They’re as safe as any drug, provided they’re taken properly, which is what Ruth is advocating.
Have you handed yourself in as a “murderer” yet?
Daisy.. Do you think I should?
Your analogy actually supports the opposite argument.
Public and and pharmacists distribute alcohol and medication respectively in accordance with strict legal guidelines. If they did so outside of those guidelines, or if someone not licensed to sell such things did so, then yes, they could be held at least partly legally responsible for any harm caused.
You’re the one prattling on about “murdering the innocents”. Haven’t you “murdered” one of these innocents yourself? It would be hypocritical of you not to. Just let me know what cop shop you’re going to, so I can watch.
Publicans and pharmacists are responsible for what they sell their customers. I was questioned buying Neurofen Plus before and Tesco has a policy of not selling more than one paracetamol-containing product per customer. Publicans have been prosecuted for selling alcohol to drunk people or children.
Seriously Daisy,
is there really a need to be that bitchy and personal.
jeez you seriously have issues your like a dog with a bone
Mick if you saw what Ms Hanley says to others you might not be so critical.
Maybe Socrates but two wrongs do not make a right,
and what daisy is saying is disgraceful.
Sick even but karma works in mysterious ways
Socrates.. Like what for example
The way Daisy conducts herself is truly vile, she is very much in the gutter of journal commenters.
seems that way Ron,
Don’t mind her Sinead none of your posts have offended me in any way
That is one of your most stupidest comments yet,Ron -and that’s saying something .
Thanks Mick x..
Mick, your non offence is not the be all and end all. She offends many. Inaccurately labelling people as murders is disgraceful and hypocritical. Sinead, You previously said you closed your account because of the offence you caused another female user, somebody who saught an apology. She was relentless, I don’t agree with how relentless she was, but she was clearly offended and insulted. So before you name call and attack others, think. Same to you Daisy.
Disgraceful, Socrates, hardly, hyperbolic perhaps.
As for offence, no has the right not to be offended, especially in open debate, less so the right to an apology. It’s rough and tumble.
Theo, there is always a line, even in debate. She, I believe, made accusations tantamount to libel. For such things I believe an apology is needed.
That is self censorship or censorship by custom. There is no place for censorship in a democratic society.
Politeness and manners are something else but we do not have ar right to demand manners and politeness be observed.
Queue “fire in a crowded theatre”. Please don’t.
The person in question has a history of accusing people of harassing her. I don’t believe for a minute you believe her accusations. You are far too intelligent for that
You are always playing the victim on here,Sinead .
Mc F.. Maybe so.. There might be a better way of sharing my take on abortion but I haven’t found it yet.
I’ve seen her argue her case, quite strongly, but never claim any victim status. I have however seen to you claim to be a victim of her attacks, despite the fact she offered proof you were in the wrong. If you are proven to be wrong, it is not an attack, it is libel on your behalf. It seems you are adding to such libel now. I’d be careful Ms Hanley. Should she see this and be in any way litigious you may not do well for it. I’d suggest you don’t dig any further holes for yourself because she did a thorough, though deeply angry (possibly over the top) job of showing people what you wrongfully accused her of. But That’s just my two cents! I do appreciate your compliment though. Have a good evening Ms Hanley
Pretty irresponsible, no?
It’s the only option to women in this country today. Pretty irresponsible? No?
its the only option as a last resort after a one night stand,
if its a fatal abnormality is there not an allowance now for abortion ?
id agree in cases like this or rape but anything else is murder imo and should never be allowed.
People need to take personal responsibility
No, Mick, there is no allowance for fatal fetal abnormality. Or rape in most cases.
are you 100 % on that Bull i think there is,not on rape which there should be but i’m nearly certain there is for ffa, anyone else know ??
How is it fair that there is a law that applies nationally just because some of you believe something?
If I do not believe that the foetus is a human nor do I believe it is murder, why can’t I have the choice to do what I want with my own body?
If you believe abortion is murder that’s fine, don’t avail of it. Simple.
that’s stupid. it’s a fact that a foetus is a human. Because you think it isn’t doesn’t make it less so.
There is no such condition as ‘fatal foetal abnormality’.
There is no abortion right in the case of FF, incest, rape only unless the woman’s life is in immediate danger and i mean on the cusp of death. How do you test a woman to know she’s been raped anyway??
I confused here. One of the Pro-Choice activists mentioned Savita Halappanavar‘s death. I understand the part where not having access to abortion in her case resulted in her death what I don’t understand is why she is relevant to the availability of this pill. The abortion pill can only be used up to 9 weeks into pregnancy but Savita was 17 weeks pregnant so the pill would have done nothing for her. Is this just a case of using a woman’s tragic death for their own political purposes?
Yes. And it’s hardly the first time her name has been thrown around with abandon
Savita could legally have been saved, even before the protection of life during pregnancy act! All the doctors had to do was call it a “life saving operation” instead of “abortion” the doctors made a huge cock up
So mentioning her in an article like this screams bs!
They say it’s the first time since her death that women can use their vote to show how they want this issue to be handled. The main campaign is to repeal the 8th which of course would have saved Savita in the fist place.
the pills can be used to end a pregnancy beyond 9 weeks if done so in a hospital setting.
Ruth is worried about here seat with an election coming SF might take it
Completely irresponsible. I hope they’re arrested for peddling potentially harmful medication.
That’s what she hoping for. Then she can turn herself into a martyr.
Paracetemol is a potentially harmful medication and that’s peddled in supermarkets, cornershops, offies etc
this is a farce of a comment
Good one daisy. But paracetamol isn’t illegal tho is it?
I’m starting up a bus that gives out free ETC pills and gonna drive it around the country giving them out, cause women should b able to do what they want with their own bodies. Is that the same idea that these folks have?
Wonder what would happen if a 16 year child got on that bus and was given access to a GP in Holland under such circumstances? Wonder if something happened afterwards would Coppinger have a solicitor bringing her up on a civil case? I know if it was my daughter I’d bring her to court so fast her feet wouldn;t touch the ground.
this is wrong on so many levels , no counselling , no talking it through with anybody , a quick Skype call and that’s it . so when or if something goes wrong , who does the woman or the girl turn to ? no aftercare ? I agree with Niall if my daughter got on one of these buses I would be furious !
Daisy, try buying 2 packs of Paracetamol in one go and see what happens.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that there are actually legal controls on the sale of medications.
Here’s the specific Paracetamol regulations for your information:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/150/made/en/print
@Suzie. If they are giving out pills on the bus itself then anyone could simply make a complaint to the cops and have them seized very easily. However, this is exactly what she wants. She wants the cops to arrest her, or get involved, so she can be painted as some kind of a martyr. In reality, she’s acting like a bloody clown.
There are idiots, and then there’s Daisy Chainsaw. A special kind of moron.
Arrested for what? Exercising a right to decide what a woman feels is best for herself, without a Doctors prescription?
100% support for women to have the ability to control their own bodies. This is not an easy way out for women but at least they have an option. Pro life will go ballistic yet again. Sometimes I think that this group have shares in Ryanair or Irish Ferries.
I predict that if there is another abortion referendum it will be rejected by the Irish people. Sirens like Coppinger seem to think that since same sex marriage was voted in, we would also vote for abortion. Hugely different issues.
life is so so simple for the “PC” brigade. Ban it ! Not in catholic Ireland! Have the baby and we will council and lecture you for 9 months and then ignore you, give you zero support. Real people, real problems need solutions, especially in Ireland and sticking your head in the sand and praying loud enough so that you will not hear the boat pulling off for England is not a solution.
“Real people, real problems need solutions, ”
But the solution is so simple.
Ruth Coppinger is a disgraceful woman. Putting woman’s health at risk and murdering the innocents to promote herself. Pure evil
You better call the cops and have her arrested for these “murders”.
Were you ever arrested for your “murder”, Sinead ?
Although I agree with your general view Sinead, the use of hysterical language like “murder” does not advance the rational anti-abortion case one iota. It is more likely to alienate those with borderline views.
Abortion is clearly not murder in law, it is though, scientifically, the destruction of human life.
For once Theo is right Sinéad Hanley. And didn’t you once have an abortion?
if the aborted foetus isn’t yet capable of surviving on its own then I wouldn’t agree that is taking a life.
Well according to science it IS a life. So whether you agree on not, is kinda secondary.
I think the point he is making is that it is not a life capable of independent life biologically. Hence why many support term limits that represent a crossover point.
How would it be capable of surviving if it was aborted ?
Abortion can be by way of premature birth. Abortion means to end a pregnancy. There are many forms of abortion Mick.
@Cuaran. The viability argument is a nonsense and if you look everywhere else in Europe they abortion laws will before the cut-off point of viability. Personally, I find the viability argument the most polarising off all pro-choice arguments. I find it abhorrent and hugely alienating. Thankfully, it is considered an extremist view even within the pro-choice movement.
Likewise I find the pro-life ‘carry at all costs’ abhorrent. Thankfully, that too is a minority extremist view within the pro-life movement.
@ Sinead – but it’s okay for the current Irish law (8th Amendment) to put women’s health at risk? physically and mentally? the control aspect of this law is absolutely horrendous. This topic should not even be in the constitution – such a prime example of when the church and state controlled the women of Ireland.
It’s unfortunate these rally’s have to take place, but it’s even more unfortunate that Irish women have to travel to another country for unbiased and safe healthcare. That is pure evil.
Socrates i didn’t think you would sink so low after reading most of your comments which seemed intelligent and fair.
Ah well
PC this campaign is just to get rid of the 8th amendment which is so dangerous for women not to bring in abortion on demand.
By you logic, if woman is punched in the stomach, and her baby dies, the attacker has the defence of saying he didn’t kill her baby as it was not capable of surviving on its own.,,,
well , if you kill a pregnant woman , you get charged for one murder not two .
And if a woman miscarried no death cert is issued and no funeral takes place. A woman is unfortunately told “it wasn’t to be” or something else heart breaking
Sinead Hanley – “murdered the innocent”, therefore you are a murderer too, no? I am tired of your hypocrisy on this subject, you had an abortion yourself and are now calling others that do a murderer. Typical of many supposed anti abortionists, do as I say not as I do.
Paul Fahey.. I believe the abortionists and the “clinics” are the ones guilty of murder.. And those that promote abortion are deciptful in my eyes… The reason I come on here talking about abortion is so people can understand another side of abortion. A bad side that isn’t spoken about… Who knew I would get judged so harshly by someone so liberal..
I cannot believe that someone would say those horrible words about other poor souls in distress .
How dare you ..!!
And you whom had one !! Get off that stage,please!
Sinead – I quote you “murdering the innocents”, so are you a murederer too? You come on here pontificating, nothing else. What makes you think calling abortion murder will help women making a very difficult life decision? You call me harsh, but it is you calling women murderers, nice. I will continue to call you out on this, you are an utter hypocrite.
Sinead, you are judging yourself to be a murderer. You are the harshest judge on here. It is incredibly hypocritical of you. You spoke above of somebody claiming victim status yet here you are judging others and crying foul of judgement. Can you fathom such hypocrisy young lady?
Paul.. I was referring to Ruth Coppingers abortion bus as the murderers. Tho I concede that it’s not that clear from my original comment.
Sinead – your defence of yourself is somewhat tenuous. By your judgement you are a murderer, not to me, but to yourself. I believe you made a valid decision, which should be available to all women.
Once they all have medical degrees then fair enough
I’m selling medical degrees, anyone want one, only valid in Kazakhstan?
I’m not sure that even if I was pro-abortion that I would want to be associated with the Dutch group who would support the euthanising of newborn babies.
that article doesn’t link correctly with the Groningen protocol I guess you are referring to, but rather a research piece. for the info of the journal, euthanasia is illegal in NL for under 12s, but the association of paediatricians have a protocol where cases of FFA are born and will terminate soon in unbearable pain, can (only with 100% consent of the parents) be euthanised in a set of strict conditions without fear of prosecution. This was due to a small number of cases where parents of children with FFA brought their children to full term (as is their right), but then had to observe the unbearable pain their child went through waiting to die. but don’t this this humane protocol dissuade you from posting about the ethical Huffington post article about “Dutch people killing live babies”
The fact that newborn euthanasia is already established, the link was to a wider debate about the ethics of post birth abortion. The ethical question is already being debated and it may only be a matter of time before pro-abortion advocates are arguing the case. Ann Furedi is almost there already.
The ethical point in the Oxford Uehiro paper is that there is no difference in destroying a 10 week foetus and euthanising a newborn child, for whatever reason. And it is not an anti-abortion stance.
The Oxford Uehiro paper is available, pay-walled, here.
Thanks for the link to the paper, and they actually do not take a stance on the ethics of abortion at all – the case put forward was ethically there is no difference (i.e. in the case of FFA), but this was only to contest the original publication’s assertion that should abortion be prohibited, and euthanasia be permitted that they are both ethically identical. There was never a case for say, economic or personal choice, abortion against infanticide (always murder), in cases where the infant can live.
Using the same terminology, there are no pro-abortion or pro-infanticide advocates (only a pro-choice for each). Pro-euthanasia advocates are different, as it is always the choice of the person being euthanised. This Dutch protocol is to provide for euthanasia for infants who (obviously) cannot make that decision, but it is verified that they are in terrible pain.
It is neither related to abortion (any time pre-birth) or infanticide (murder, after birth), but an interesting distraction.
Very well put Alien8, and at least that has given me food for thought, although like you I would be looking at it from a particular perspective.
The ethical point regarding the ‘person’ though is interesting and is used to justify abortion. It can be argued that a newborn does not posses personhood and is therefore equivalent to a foetus.
Similarly, an individual suffering from advanced Alzheimer’s could be said to have lost personhood. Would it be ethical to euthanise such an individual without their consent? It is just another stage of a human life, the same as the zygote.
Theo this points out the failure of the ‘personhood’ argument. It is too flexible and you can place the line in the sand wherever you want. You could even apply it to an ethnic minority. I would suspect that pro-choicers would be the first to protest if the ‘personhood’ concept was used in defence of something they didn’t agree with.
Neither of you read the paper. Or the article linked, for that matter. It does not limit it’s logic to fatal foetal abnormality.
“The authors say that killing a newborn baby should be “permissible in all cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.”
Theo I had to watch my lovely nan go from one of the most intelligent and philosophical people I knew to a blubbering mess. For four years she lived in St Mary’s not able to talk, walk, recognise us, wearing a nappy and being very agitated. When I think of the proud woman that she was it destroyed me. If they had given us the option to euthanise her I think we would have taken it. At least we would have been there when she died. I now have a living will because I never want my family to go through that should this be my faith. Hopefully by that time the state will have grown up to respect my wishes.
So what is the argument JayK? Isnt that pretty much what I said origionally?Alien8 agreed with that and there is little doubt that Alien has read the article, as I have.
Sorry about your Nan Deborah. The point I was making is that the personhood justification for abortion, ethically draws an equivalence between the foetus and the sever Alzheimer’s suffer. One has not developed a personhood and the other has lost it.
Should the Alzheimer’s suffer be euthanised without their concentrate? That is what happens to an aborted foetus. There is arguably, at least, a moral equivalence.
I always had respect for Ruth but I think this is a very dangerous irresponsible thing to do. I am pro choice to a degree but what’s to stop girls taking it after the 9 week limit ?
Ruth “bring back our Halawa” Coppinger? You had respect for her before?
Ruth there are no words. You evil, irresponsible cow.
This is completely ridiculous, irresponsible and negligent!! Silly silly people!!
Kind of the point. This is what women are reduced to because of our laws. The aim is free, SAFE and legal abortion.
Hmmm I understand that.. Still totally ridiculous to risk women’s psychological and physical wellbeing by shoving an abortion tablets at them following a Skype call! I think we all know this is dangerous and irresponsible and although the point is being made; at what cost??
Well what cost must we go to in order to force a referendum?
the same questions are asked as if the dr and patient are in the same room, the consult is exactly the same.
The abortion pills are safer then Viagra.
Put the child up for adoption rather than kill he/ she .no need to murder the innocent.
Oh yes, that is the solution for all crisis pregnancies > ignorance !
Ruth is starting her election campaign early.
Ruth coppinger is a Muppet
Firstly this is a very sensitive issue and no matter what any party says they dont want to tackle this head on for fear of alienating voters. I haven’t researched enough to have an opinion on this however i find it startling that a sitting TD can take part in something that is breaking the law and not be cautioned on it, not a dig at Ruth Coppinger but more about the crazy system where a person with no TV Licence can end up in prison but a TD informs us before the event that the law will be broken and nothing happens, madness.
She saw to boost Paul Murphy got when he was summoned to court so now she is trying the same thing.
She has been campaigning on this for a long time. How about focusing on the issue? Very little other politicians will even touch this and this campaign has brought the problem forward and will keep it in the news. I doubt too many women will avail of this today because you don’t plan an accidental pregnancy but it is keeping it in everyone’s minds. What would I do if this happened to me in Ireland? What if it could happen to a man, would you want the choice? Remember not all women will choose to abort but at least they can decide.
I think it’s cheap and a low call from Ruth , I think it’s undermining the seriousness of abortion , a bus pulling up into town and you can jump on and get your abortion pills . sorry but that’s terrible carry on .
They should have taken a train
They couldn’t… The trains are on strike
That was done already, its a bus this year and maybe a yacht next time around?
why don’t these ppl just adopt they’re unwanted babies ,their are lots of couples who would gladly take them .
You sir are a genius!
Have you ever thought of sending that remarkable ,but yet ‘simplistic’ solution to the powers that be ..
I am glad that I am going for a stroll down my lane with my three dogs in the knowledge that Frank has come up with a solution to the women going for an abortion ..Good lad!
The problem Frank is that women will go to England and do it regardless of our laws. So I’d ask what’s the point in having a law that is bypassed so easily and frequently?
A far right wing thinker could put a tax on it being done in this country and make some money for the exchequer at the same time!
Why would any woman do what you would like them to do ? This is the part that I struggle with .
Frank it is not a problem you will ever have so if you cannot take it seriously try to get educated because it will effect someone you love.
The point is to give women access to safe, non-judgemental healthcare and allow them to work with their Dr regarding their rights to access abortion services and other options.
I’m pro-choice but I can’t say I support an abortion pill bus.
I support the pills, the have been legal to use in France from 1988 and are extremely safe, they are way safer then any other toxic mix women may drink or trying to end a pregnancy with a implement.
Well done Ruth, it reminds me of the contraceptive Train run to Belfast in the early seventies and yet 44 years later you still have to do a similar trip to again highlight women’s rights. When does the male catholic church and its followers realise that we live in a secular state since 1973 when the special place of the catholic church was removed from the Constitution.
The contraceptive train? How does people going to Belfast and buying condoms which don’t need a doctor to tell you they are safe equate to a drug that has to be prescribed by a doctor? One sought to prevent pregnancy and the other seeks to terminate it. One doesn’t need medical advice but the other does. They are two completely different issues altogether.
The contraception train was about everyones rights to access contraception. Even U2 were handing out condoms at live gigs at one point ffs.
As for the Church, well there are more nuns than priests in Ireland and aways have been. They were also the ones that had control of maternity wards. They wouldn’t even allow men in ffs.
And it is debatable whether or not abortion in itself is a ‘womens rights’ issue as their is no right to abortion and according to our laws the unborn has an equal right. Something, unfortunately for you, the majority in this country agree with.
Another stunt from that dreadful Coppinger woman. I hope she is arrested and charged with endangering peoples lives by handing out drugs which should only be prescribed by a doctor who would be aware of the patients medical history etc.
Over 90 percent of Down syndrome babies aborted in Denmark so let’s not have any control at all get real if the mother is at risk or the baby won’t survive well I’d understand but just cause you couldn’t be arsed to use protection is a different story
You are not the one to have to carry the baby after you have had your jollies on a drunken night out. It is great to be idealistic but life is life and we all make mistakes. So at the Christmas party do we sign contracts in advance before you get locked and might get ‘lucky’? Come on man, both men and women have the same weaknesses so why should we place a greater expectation on women?
Paul, the rate of those seeking abortions has dropped dramatically in the last few years. Its gone from 7k a year, down to 4k and falling. No coincidence I suggest, that this tied in perfectly with the introduction of the morning after pill. So the “weakness” seems to be first and foremost, not using contraception. That’s down to personal responsibility and can be tackled head on with free contraception and widening its accessibility.
Abortifacients are not something I oppose strongly personally. I think there may be room for them.
“Come on man, both men and women have the same weaknesses so why should we place a greater expectation on women?”
And that’s just a ridiculous statement as a mother can unilaterally surrender her parental rights and responsibilities through adoption, or if so inclined, got to the UK for an abortion. A man cannot surrender those responsibilities no matter what. Where’s the equality in that?
Well the father of my child walked away and never paid a penny because he “wasn’t ready” where’s the quality in that?
Then you simply seek a court order and they will deduct it from his wages. in fact, they will track him to the other side of the world via international child maintenance agreements.
and you’ll get back pay
I have had him arrested and he choose to take the jail term. Gardai were very unhelpful and unwilling to arrest him BTW when I tracked down where he was. I was in court three times, he never appeared, and it was costing me money. He hated that I went ahead with the pregnancy. I lost heart after years of this and raised my daughter alone. There is very little help for women trying to get payment from the father of the child. There is very little legislation like garnishing wages in this country.
Well, that’s a bad situation all round. Not to be cruel about it but in the words of Judge Judy “You picked him”. And the state does pay out to single parents too in many different forms through the department of SP. So, it doesn’t leave people high and dry. It also offers adoption.
I still don’t see abortion as an overall answer to society’s woes.
Legal Murder
An oxymoron if ever I saw one
I would like to see a person having this decision (abortion) made between them and their physician .What a woman does with her body is of no concern to me.
and if it was your child in her womb that was healthy and could be loved and financially supported ?
Then it’s between the couple to try and talk things through .
If they cannot settle their differences then, you cannot stop a woman from making a decision to hop on a plane and having an abortion .It’s tough but that’s the way it is .
Unless of course one locks her up in a basement but then that is a crime .
Well Francis luckily we didn’t have mothers like that eh,
see my point ?
You’re talking through your hole
Ah Francis so when you can’t express your opinion you simply attack the person that has challenged you,
sad and very transparent Francis.
Shame
You are on about ‘if’ my mother did this bull -no time for that crap talk .Shame.
Ha ha crap talk ?, it’s perfectly relevant to your previous points Francis,
You simply couldn’t answer sensibly so just attacked,
It’s very transparent but keep digging it’s amusing
What is amusing to me anyway -is that you cannot cope with the power that a woman holds over her own body ..Must eat you up inside ..
Hi Mick
“and if it was your child in her womb that was healthy and could be loved and financially supported ?”
What an interesting thing to say ..
You do know (I’m presuming) that the majority of abortions that are carried out goes in this order
Health of mother
Parenting capacity of mother
Low resources of mother
Couples who can love and financially support do not have abortions (except in the cases of the health of mother)
West Cork Lad
It’s kind of pointless coming on here and talking to Mick with your usual brilliant posts
He’ll start throwing ‘if’s’ at you -it’s hilarious!
Oh dear Cork Lad,
I presume you have facts and figures for that sweeping generalisation ?
Didn’t think so.
Will i get the shovel for you again Francis ?
What part of West Cork Lads post are you struggling with ,Mick ?
Is it the one where he said :”Couples who can love and financially support do not have abortions (except in the cases of the health of mother)”?
Seems to make sense to me .Ah,I get it ,now !! It makes sense!
”Couples who can love and financially support do not have abortions (except in the cases of the health of mother)”?”
Makey uppy fact no.24
Woman should have the right to control there own bodies, not this granny state deciding! Bleeding backwards nation we are! We should of just kept hitler alive, all he wanted to do was control people and they done same thing!
And he would have done the same thing
Kept Hitler alive? I hate the government as much as the next person but isn’t that a little…….?
Like many, I really want the 8th repealed. This entrapment on women just because they’re women has to end. But I can’t agree with online consultation & posted meds, that sounds way too dangerous. Surely abortion must be properly overseen by professional medics. But the fact that women are doing it just goes to show how desperate this is getting. Time to repeal, NOW.
“This entrapment on women just because they’re women has to end.”
What does that even mean?
Apologies, didn’t word that very well. l’m very pro choice & I find the 8th to be very anti-woman & they should be allowed to choose instead of having to carry the burden of a mistake/medical disaster (like that poor Indian lady) just because they’re the carriers. That’s what I meant.
Wait for the name calling cause u don’t agree with dear Ruth
The only name calling I have seen is by Ms Hanley above calling people murderers. And by the way, I don’t fully agree with Coppinger.
I have to wonder is there an ultrasound machine on board the bus. Or does the Skype doctor just take the woman’s word for it that she is (a) pregnant and (b) at 9 weeks or less gestation. A medical abortion is only suitable between 5 and 9 weeks, so basically two missed periods. Any later than that and you will be referred for a surgical abortion. Also, the pills are not to be used if the pregnancy is suspected to be ectopic. Without an ultrasound to determine either the foetal gestation or whether or not the pregnancy is growing inside the womb then they are putting these women in danger. It’s irresponsible and I’m surprised they haven’t been arrested. I’m pro-choice by the way.
Coppinger is deluded if she thinks this will convert anyone but the already converted, She’s just alienating responsible moderates.
Anyone know what the position of the office of the attorney general should/would be on this? Surely this would be construed as a risk to the life of the unborn by the group advocating the bus etc
The X case, though some politicians wished that Harry Whelehan didn’t intervene, involved the then AG intervening where there was a risk to the life of the unborn. Interesting case at present with this bus.
Additionally the 8th amendment from either side of the fence, in my opinion, isn’t sufficient.
You are dealing with a 1983 amendment which was interpreted in 1992 and since then the oireachtas has provided zero legal certainty to medical professionals. My understanding that even after the recent legislation there is still hesitance.
There needs to be a new amendment to clarify the position and legislation should be tracked with it. Who is to say that either sides could not put forward a proposed amendment on the issue and leave the Irish people the choice at a referendum to decide which particular amendment is made law.
Will Deputy Coppinger, and the others, be charged with conspiracy?
No amendment is needed. We need to remove the 8th and let the doctors and couples/women decide their own fate.
More like a campaign not to use condoms?
Our abortion laws are an embarrassment but surely women can get a €20 fare up to belfast if they want these pills.
That seems to be the answer to everything. Tell women to fück off to another country to have their medical needs taken care of.
They are illegal in the North as well. The reason for going there was to collect pills that had been delivered to NI addresses. They are routinely seized by customs here in the South. But the online consultation is the same whether on a bus or in your home.
The ultimate success of the Suffragettes shows that direct and radical public action, not advocacy, is the only way to repeal oppressive and discriminatory laws.
FdF, lack of abortion provision cannot be logically considered either oppressive or discriminatory.
If the state forced an individual to have intercourse but failed to provide contraception or in the event of contraceptive failure, abortion, that would be oppressive.
Abortion on the other hand discriminates against a human life at its most vulnerable stage.
These individuals should be arrested and charge premeditated murder.
The pro-life group, outnumbered them 3-1 in Limerick.
If you say so!
Is this bus + publicity campaign “offering the option” of abortion or “actively encouraging” people to have one?
If you think about it Ruth wouldn’t come out of this looking very well if no one opted to take her up on it. As such she has a vested interest that a certain number of women follow through. And consider that against the medical safety issues raised.
She is raising the problem women all over Ireland have to secretly desalination with and that’s a win for me.
*deal
I think Coppinger will encourage people to have abortions simply because her campaign has to result in abortions to be seen to be successful. Imagine the headlines if nobody took the pill for example – she would lose face big time.
So the more abortions the more successful her campaign – seems to be the nature of it. And coupled with the medical risks..
There is a big difference between letting people choose and trying to influence them one way or the other.
If we want to talk about highlighting an issue then how about highlighting an issue without influencing people decision one way or the other.
No she wouldn’t and I doubt they will disclosing the medical details of the women they help. And how to you force someone to have an abortion?
Coppinger should be so lucky for any man to touch her… Never mind feel the need to take those pills
Great comment!
Here’s hoping that there’s a prize of a bone in it for you .
Ara whisht. *wags tail*
Have to agree with WCL when they say that financially secure couples don’t tend to be the people that have abortions ..
Saw a figure myself the other day that back in 2010-11 in America 85.5% of women that had an abortion were unmarried..
I’m glad they didn’t take the train or they would have been rightly f****d !!
Just drug pushing plain and simple, you can get up to 10 years if charged and convicted.
I heard Ruth on pat Kenny she said the country had moved on since the 80s.she’s right so has contraceptives. She said women who had other children or older women should be able to have abortions so she really want to use abortion as a contraceptive.so the same woman who was crying crocodile tears for the 5 & 6 month children that perished in carickmines only cares if the baby has left the womb.
Yeah.
It’s a short bus?
I reckon the bus is going to pull into some town where the Garda Super is in both the Knights of Columbanus and Legion of Mary, he will arrest the whole bus and leave them rot in cells for the long weekend.
Wow, far too many comments here for an ordinary bloke like me to comprehend, sorry about that people. Please can someone explain to me the difference between the ‘Morning after pill’ and this ‘Abortion pill ‘? Genuine question and excuse my ignorance on this subject?
Middle aged old geezer here but the missus and I had sometimes occasion to get the ‘Morning after’ one from our local pharmacy, freely available without prescription here in France, but now this ‘Abortion pill’ sounds a bit more ominous? Helpful replies welcome and over to you good people for any answers?
The morning after pill is effective for up to the days after sex and prevents implantation, so the pregnancy doesn’t start. The abortion pill(s) work up to 9wks. The first dose ends the pregnancy and the second leads to the contents of the uterus being expelled. In jurisdictions where the abortion pill is legal, best practice is to carry out a pelvic ultrasound to establish the gestational age before considering prescribing the abortion pill. that is what is absent in the Abortion Pill Bus, and is another reason to repeal the 8th – so that best practice can be implemented.
up to *three days
Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on that one, Anne. I feel better informed already.
Abortion is always wrong it’s a denial of human the rights of the baby, a denial of its right to life. I can’t understand how so called intelligent people believe that abortion is the answer to anything
Irresponsible action by this TD tiring to get re-elected. If something happens a girl/woman as a result of taking one of these pills without a proper medical consultation Coppinger will distance herself from this campaign as quickly as Paul Murphy dropped Syriza in Greece
“No human being, regardless of size, level of development, environment, degree of dependency, race, gender, place of residence, should be excluded from the human family. In other words, humanity is inclusive and open to all , especially those who are small, vulnerable & defenceless.”
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