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AS IT HAPPENED: the RTÉ general election leaders' debate

The seven leaders of Ireland’s largest political parties went toe-to-toe this evening – here’s how it all panned out.

Well that was a very quick couple of hours.

The marquee debate between all seven leaders has left a lot of talking points, but not many clear winners.

The Social Democrats’ Stephen Donnelly will probably be the happiest, although in truth all the smaller parties did well.

There weren’t too many issues for the large parties, although having said that not much happened that will have improved their standing either, something Labour definitely needed to happen.

Here’s the full debate, as and how it happened at the University Concert Hall, Limerick.

Good evening and welcome to TheJournal.ie‘s liveblog of the second leaders’ debate of the 2016 general election.

This time round it’s the turn of RTÉ, who will have seven party leaders present for tonight’s debate in Limerick, moderated by Claire Byrne, which kicks off at 9.35pm.

Cianan Brennan here writing to you from HQ in Dublin. Our Political Editor Hugh O’Connell will be tweeting his analysis from @oconnellhugh and @tj_politics and he’ll have a full round-up after the debate concludes. Aoife Barry will be providing an alternate slant to proceedings from TheJournal.ie‘s main Twitter account @TheJournal_ie, and our scourge of the ill-conceived political statement Dan MacGuill will be on hand with FactChecks throughout the evening.

And if all that’s not enough you can tweet me @ciananbrennan with your thoughts on the night’s action.

Will tonight’s many-leadered debate be a relatively tame affair? Or will we see something akin to the below? Only time will tell.

young ones

Leaders have been drifting into  the University Concert Hall in Limerick over the last hour or so, with Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin the first to arrive.

Renua’s Lucinda Creighton is also present and correct, and says that her strategy for the evening is to “be myself”. Interesting.

One party that won’t be taking part this evening is of course the Green Party, who earlier went to the High Court to try and turn tonight’s debate into an eight-way affair.

The party currently have no TDs with RTÉ denying them their application to take part as a result. Their High Court action was earlier rejected.

There’s a lot at stake tonight. Very little movement was seen in the polls following last Thursday’s debate with few if any punches landing on that occasion.

That is a bit of a problem for the government. Fine Gael and Labour would be back in power following the election with each other if they had their preference. Unfortunately if the polls are to be believed the coalition won’t be returned as Labour won’t have enough TDs entering the 32nd Dáil.

One of the biggest problems for the coalition is that in many tight constituencies they are in all likelihood in direct competition with each other which isn’t ideal.

It seemed during Thursday’s debate however that the only coherent united force was still Fine Gael and Labour.

Meanwhile, tonight is the smaller parties’ chance to get stuck into the debate and to create leverage and opportunities for themselves once the election is done.

Or will they take aim at each other? Renua would dearly love to score some points over the Social Democrats you would imagine.

One thing’s for certain, Lucinda Creighton vs Enda Kenny could be one of the highlights of tonight’s debate.

One thing we do know is what order the various leaders will take: from left-to-right it’ll be: Richard Boyd Barrett (People Before Profit), Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin), Micheál Martin (Fianna Fáil), Enda Kenny (Fine Gael), Joan Burton (Labour), Stephen Donnelly (Social Democrats), Lucinda Creighton (Renua).

Are you excited yet?

So, let’s play some debate bingo. Which of these issues/phrases are we going to hear about tonight?

  • Fiscal Space (curiously absent from the last debate after dominating the first week of the election)
  • Gangland Crime
  • 1916
  • Housing and the homeless situation
  • Water charges
  • The dreaded “keeping the recovery going”

For what it’s worth, our money is on the word recovery being used at least a couple of hundred times this evening. Although probably not by the opposition. Anyone want to keep count?

You have to admit it would make things interesting.

Caption competition time.

What we really want to know is whether the gentleman in the mirror is sporting one of those man-bun things?

Four minutes to go folks!

Will Claire be able to keep a tighter rein on the leaders than Pat Kenny and Colette Fitzpatrick managed last Thursday? There really was a lot of finger-pointing going on that night.

Well, she’s got three more leaders to deal with so she may have her work cut out.

If that’s anything to go by Claire Byrne is going to be jumping on speakers all-evening long, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. She’s just banned the phrase ‘fiscal space’! But Richard Boyd Barrett had already said it so you’re still good if you had it on your bingo card.

richard boyd barret

Leave the jargon out says Claire.

claire

First question is from on Pierse Duggan who wants to know why we should believe anything our political parties are saying.

Enda is first up. He looks a little… nervous maybe?

“We’re in a much safer position than we were,” says the Taoiseach.

enda

Claire interrupts him mid-sentence. She wants to know about the abolition of USC.

Sound the recovery klaxon! The Taoiseach has just said “we must keep the recovery going” for the first time tonight.

Social Democrats leader Stephen Donnelly is having his introductory spiel now.

He doesn’t want to touch the USC Claire suggests?

“It’s a necessary tax for a stable tax base,” says Stephen.

The economic storm clouds are gathering, we all can see that.

lucinda

Now Renua’s Lucinda Creighton:

“We’re proposing a flat rate of income tax,” she says.

This has really been a little dull so far.

Fianna Fáil’s leader is up next.

“The fact of the matter is Fine Gael now represent the biggest threat to the economic recovery,” he says.

We want to reduce USC, particularly for those on low incomes.

And now the Tánaiste:

joan

“If there’s anything to be wary of it’s what the people of Fianna Fáil did to the country to wreck it.”

For every €1 of USC reduction we will provide €3 of spending and investment into the public services that people need, and into getting people back to work.

And here’s Gerry Adams to land the first zinger of the evening – he’s just described Enda, Joan and Micheál as the “Three Amigos”.

He reckons that Fine Gael have been “magicking up figures”.

Gerry has also gone for the jugular with a discussion of Fine Gael’s miscalculations of the infamous fiscal space.

But he didn’t use the phrase “fiscal space”. Devious.

gerry

Enda is not to bothered about this, and in rejoinder goes after Micheál Martin again, this time on the subject of mass emigration following the crash.

There really are a lot of people on this stage, but everyone is being quite courteous at present and letting everyone else talk.

They may have to split into smaller groups and have conversations among themselves at this rate – we’ve only got an hour and a half after all.

Just as we say it, the Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin leaders have turned on each other.

It’s one round of applause each as they discuss the Sinn Féin leader’s alleged IRA connections, and Gerry counters that Micheál’s party ruined the economy.

mmga

A second question from the audience. The gentleman asking it (whose name we missed, sorry), wants to know what the various parties will do should they come to power to stimulate business and employment in rural areas.

In response, Joan Burton says that her party has reopened the Garda college in Templemore.

Stephen Donnelly up now.

“Irish businesses can’t access the kind of funding they need,” he says.

What you do is reduce the cost of living. We have some of the highest insurance costs, childcare costs in the world.

Donnelly seems quite keen on pushing his economic ideas in a calm, considered way tonight. He needs a crash course in finger-pointing so he does.

sdonn

Lucinda Creighton has the floor.

She’s talking about the situation with social insurance for SMEs and the self-employed.

“They don’t have the same advantages as PRSI workers,” she says.

And a second one for you:

factcheck

“Labour pledged to reduce student fees, then increased them” – Micheál Martin.

Verdict: TRUE.

In 2011, Ruairi Quinn signed a pledge to reverse a Fianna Fáil-imposed increase in the student contribution charge, then €1,500.

After becoming Education Minister, Quinn and his successor Jan O Sullivan oversaw annual €250 increases in the charge, to its current level of €3,000.

For more detail, check out this article.

Time for our first FactCheck of the evening, which concerns the Tánaiste’s claims re Garda numbers.

factcheck

FACT CHECK:

There are already 1,150 extra Gardaí on the streets since Templemore was re-opened -Joan Burton

Verdict: FALSE

The Tánaiste made a similar claim in last week’s debate, but the numbers simply do not add up.

In answer to a parliamentary question earlier this month, Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald stated that, since the re-opening of Templemore Garda training college in 2014, 550 new Garda trainees had been recruited.

She added that 296 of those 550 recruits were now stationed throughout the country.
Last year’s budget provided for the additional recruitment of 600 trainees by the end of 2016, but that recruitment has not actually taken place.

So the Labour leader’s claim that there are “already 1,100 new Gardaí on the streets” really ought to be “We now have 296 new Gardaí, 254 recruits in training, and an additional 600 expected to enter training by the beginning of 2017.”

Richard Boyd Barrett is up and he gets the first round of applause offered in anger.

Joan counters to not great effect.

Stephen Donnelly is now hitting out at the “faux outrage” being expressed on stage and around the country for  nurses, doctors and guards.

“Compare that with the red carpet rolled out for Donald Trump buying a golf course by our Minister for Finance,” he says.

“I didn’t meet Donald Trump myself,” sniffs Enda.

enda123

Gerry Adams and the Taoiseach are now having words. Unfortunately for the Sinn Féin leader he doesn’t quite get his point across after tripping over his words and Claire steps in to take another question from the audience.

This one comes from Sharon who wants to know what’s going on at Ennis hospital.

sharon

In response, Micheál and Enda clash over broken promises when it comes to health services. There’s a bit of back and forth between the two. Enda thinks Micheál is “talking rubbish”.

endamm

Lucinda Creighton takes up the reins.

“There are so many layers of bureaucracy and middle management in our health service,” she says.

“But health stumps everybody?” says Claire.

“I disagree, we have to change strategy,” Lucinda replies.

Change the approach, bring the parties together, create consensus, and let’s have a 20-year vision, not a five-year one.

lucinda

Cue applause.

Time for another FactCheck from Dan. This one concerns whether or not Micheál Martin denied that Ireland needed a bailout in 2010.

factcheck

FACT CHECK:

In 2010, Micheál Martin said Ireland wouldn’t need an EU bailout – Kenny.

Verdict: TRUE

In a September 28 interview with Bloomberg News, Martin stated:

“By and large we are very confident we’ll come out of this. Clearly it’s challenging and so on, but there’s no necessity for the triggering of such a mechanism.”

It could just be us, but it feels that the the three leaders of the smaller parties are making their points far more effectively than the four mains, who seem more concerned with scoring points against each other.

boyd barrett

Richard Boyd Barrett is up now – he’s enthusing about the National Health Service in the UK, though he acknowledges that the NHS isn’t a perfect system.

“You close down or downgrade the local A&E services and within a year you have chaos,”he says.

We warned Minister Varadkar about this.

It’s another round of applause for RBB.

enda k

“I’d be the first to admit that we haven’t achieved all that we wished to do,” says the Taoiseach in response.

“Are we citizens with rights, or do we not have rights,” says Gerry Adams.

What Richard just described happened in my constituency too.

FactCheck number four – did Micheál Martin cut 3,000 Garda positions?

factcheck

FACT CHECK:

Micheál Martin cut 3,000 Garda positions – Gerry Adams.

Verdict: FALSE, but a butchered version of last week’s claim, that 3,500 Garda positions were lost between FF and FG/Labour. We rated that claim Half-TRUE, because it ignored parallel recruitment of new Gardaí.

The governments didn’t “get rid” of the positions, but from 2007-2015, there were a total of 3,577 departures from An Garda Síochána, most of which came from voluntary retirement.

So Adams is correct in stating the combined number of Gardaí who left the force during the tenures of the last Fianna Fáil-led government, and the outgoing Fine Gael/Labour one.

gardastrength

However, this obviously doesn’t take into account recruitment.

During Fianna Fáil’s time in government from 1997 to 2011, there was a net gain of 2,926 in Garda strength. During the tenure of Fine Gael and Labour since 2011, there has been a net loss of 1,078.

Joan thinks Stephen Donnelly is speaking in “management consultant talk”.

I can actually hear a stack of reports forming now,” she says. Zing

joanbuton

I would defy anyone to tell me that our A&E services are entirely bad.

“Remember Róisín Shortall Joan?” says Micheál.

She chose to leave the Labour Party because James Reilly wanted to look after people in his own constituency.

“All we’re hearing now…” begins Joan in response.

“All we’re hearing now is nothing,” says an impatient Claire. The audience love that.

Moving on…

Joan and Claire are now on a proper collision course.

“Would you mind answering the question Joan?” Claire says after something of a laborious Burton monologue.

Scenes reminiscent of Mary Lou McDonald to the Tánaiste at Dáil question time.

claire

We’re now over an hour into the debate. Who on earth is winning?

 

Answer: no-one seems to know. Claire is doing a good job though.

We’re onto rent allowance now.

Time for another FactCheck – has the government really put “tens of millions” into rent supplement? This one isn’t good reading for Joan, who isn’t having a great debate tonight at all.

factcheck

FACT CHECK:
The government has “put tens of millions extra into rent supplement” – Joan Burton.

Verdict: Very FALSE.

Total spending on rent supplement dropped by 40% from 2011 to 2015.

The number of individuals on rent supplement also dropped 36.7% during the same period.

rentsuppl

sd222

“There are mums and dads who are tonight putting their kids to bed in the back of cars,” says Stephen Donnelly.

Donnelly wants a new housing agency.

Claire wants to know what the Taoiseach makes of the housing and homelessness problem.

“We have two kinds of homelessness in this country. We’ve the rough sleepers, who are on the streets and if they want a bed they can have one, that’s no problem,” says the Taoiseach.

He doesn’t say who the other kind of homeless person in Ireland is though.

allseven

factcheck

FACT CHECK:

There were 3,000 ghost estates when government came into power, there are now 600 – Enda Kenny.

Verdict: Almost entirely TRUE.

The number of unfinished housing developments going into 2010 was 2,846.

The number going into this year was 668.

Well holy God – we’re an hour and a half in and we’ve just hit our first commercial break.

Tiiiiiimmeee for another FactCheck: this concerns a statement Gerry Adams just made about Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael’s respective records on health workers and beds.

factcheck

FACT CHECK:

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael lost 7,500 health workers and 1,600 beds – Gerry Adams

Verdict: Almost entirely TRUE

From 2008-2014, acute beds dropped by 1,643, from 12,123 to 10,480.

From 2008-2015, the number of staff in the health service dropped by 7,377, from 110,903 to 103,526.

staffbeds

We’re back from the commercial break, and now we’re onto rural crime. What do the seven leaders plan to do about it, an audience member asks.

“I represent a rural constituency, and people are afraid they’re going to be burgled in their homes,” says Gerry Adams. He wants to reinstate rural Garda stations.

lucindagif

Lucinda speaks of her “Three Strikes and Out” rule – ie a life sentence for someone convicted three times.

“This is about serious criminals being taken off our streets,” she says, her strongest speech of the evening.

We make no apologies for saying so.

“Stephen Donnelly – you’re not really interested in crime are you,” asks Claire.

“We most certainly are Claire,” replies Donnelly, keen as they come.

But first things first we have to acknowledge that we have a first-rate police force.

“We need more gardaí, that’s what the force is saying,” says Donnelly, much of whose rhetoric this evening has concerned talking to “the people” and seeing what they need.

“We’re going to have endless amounts of guards if we continue as we are this evening,” snaps back Claire.

factcheck

FACT CHECK: Government has closed 139 Garda stations – Gerry Adams.

Verdict: TRUE.

Last week, Adams claimed 140 had been closed, and we corrected it. Someone at Sinn Féin HQ obviously reads the FactCheck.

39 Garda stations were closed in 2012, and 100 closed in 2013. For a list of 37 of the 39 closed in 2012, click here. For a list of the 100 stations closed in 2013, click here.

Crime was always going to be a central part of this debate given the recent spate of brutal gangland killings.

What does Richard Boyd Barrett think?

photojoiner

“I’m interested in trying to deal with crime, by taking young people away from crime, by giving young people options,” he says.

“What about crimes that are happening tonight?” says Claire. She isn’t letting this go and she has Boyd Barrett backed into a corner, the least comfortable he’s looked all night.

“This is taxpayer’s money you’re talking about here,” she persists.

We’re onto our final question, and this one concerns 1916. 1916 klaxon!

Not really, it’s a sneaky way for this fellow to ask will Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil get into bed together in the next government. Now that’s a question.

qn333

Enda isn’t biting though. “We want the stability of returning the government that is in office, that is Fine Gael and Labour,” he says.

Fianna Fáil, they ruined our economy says Enda, they are not credible in government, and they don’t deserve to be in government.

“So you will absolutely not be going into government with Fianna Fáil?” asks Claire.

“Absolutely not, absolutely not,” shouts Enda.

Now then, that sounds pretty definitive. So if not Fianna Fáil, who is it going to be?

“The civil war was a long, long time ago,” Micheál offers helpfully.

“THANK YOU GENTLEMEN,” Claire roars when the two party leaders won’t stop bickering.

It’s all chat now about who’ll be in government and who won’t be. The key difference really between this one and the last debate in that no one present then wants to go into power with anyone else, apart from Fine Gael and Labour naturally. This time round there are people from parties who have their options open.

“We will only enter government if we see big changes when it comes to politics and accountability in this country,” says Lucinda Creighton.

“So you’re open to offers then,” clarifies Claire.

Gerry raises his hand. He wants to talk.

allseven

“And sure why wouldn’t you,” says Claire.

“I want the three amigos here to ride off into the sunset,” says Gerry with a big grin.

Three Amigos klaxon! It might catch on you know.

“Let’s get this crowd out,” Gerry finishes.

Richard Boyd Barrett denies that a vote for him is a vote for opposition.

“We deserve another term to continue our work,” claims Joan.

“Stephen Donnelly, who will you go into government with,” asks Claire world-wearily.

“I think Claire, that a vote for Labour – they are the only European left-wing party advocating a vote for a conservative, right-wing government,” the Social Democrat replies.

“We won’t be anyone’s mudguard in government I can promise you that,” he adds.

Here’s the second to last of our FactChecks for the evening for you to digest in the post-debate afterglow.

factcheck

FACT CHECK: 300,000 jobs were lost under Fianna Fáil – Enda Kenny

Mostly TRUE but depends on what measure you use.

Net job losses from 2007-2011 were 437,202.

The number of persons employed dropped by 268,800 from 2007-2011.

For more details, check out this article.

claire777

It’s final message time – where did those two hours go?

The Taoiseach recovers his composure and says “it’s time to keep this recovery going”.

Lucinda Creighton says that Renua plan “to keep our promises and tell the truth”.

“We want to build a stronger, fairer and more prosperous Ireland. If you want more than what the establishment has to offer, please vote for the Social Democrats. Every vote matters,” says Stephen Donnelly, who has been one of the stars of the show tonight.

The Eighth Amendment makes its first entry via Richard Boyd Barrett who says he wants it repealed.

“Compre Labour’s vision of hope and optimism, and then contrast with the opposition’s ideas based on despair,” says Joan.

“Tá sé in am vótáil d’Shinn Féin,” says Gerry Adams (I think, apologies if I have got this wrong).

And suddenly it’s over. Claire wishes us all a fond farewell, and cut to credits. That was a very swift couple of hours indeed.

David McCullagh is up next on RTÉ One to discuss the fallout from tonight’s debate.

So what do we make of all that then?

On reflection it seemed quite a messy affair, which was perhaps predictable given the sheer number of voices on stage.

If you think of what was truly memorable from tonight, the kind of thing that might swing an election, there wasn’t all that much to choose from.

There was no over-riding gaffe, and most of the squabbling ended with just one winner – Claire Byrne.

Perhaps Lucinda Creighton’s ultra-strong push of her party’s policy on crime. Stephen Donnelly and Richard Boyd Barrett seemed to have the audience very much on side.

If we’re being honest, there didn’t seem to be that much to choose from between the leaders of the larger parties, apart from perhaps the Labour leader. Joan Burton had a tough night at the office is our feeling.

If one of the fundamentals for the government was to give a boost to the ailing Labour party its hard to see how that boost was provided tonight.

That is perhaps reflected in a Twitter straw poll just carried out by @thejournal_ie:

Our other poll at presents shows the Social Democrats as the best-performing of the smaller parties:

Our final FactCheck for this evening from Dan MacGuill – did 250,000 people leave the country under Fianna Fáil?

factcheck

FACT CHECK: 250,000 people left the country under Fianna Fáil – Enda Kenny

Verdict: Partly TRUE – ignores the fact that Fianna Fáil oversaw significant net inward migration.

Kenny also made this claim last week, although then he framed it solely in terms of youth emigration. We rated that claim only “Partly TRUE”, by the same rationale as this week’s claim.

Here are the facts:

From 2007 to 2010, Fianna Fáil’s last term in office, 236,700 people did leave Ireland. But 380,100 also entered the country.

emigimmig

From 2011-2015, under this government, 419,500 people have emigrated, while 291,800 came in.

So Fianna Fáil oversaw net inward migration of 143,400, while Fine Gael and Labour have overseen net outward migration of 127,700.

We’re going to wrap things up here after a long night of political intrigue.

Hugh has just come up with the nine things you need to know about tonight’s debate if you fancy some more political chat before bed, while a thorough fact check by Dan on tonight’s claims and counter-claims will be up on the site before long.

And that is pretty much that. Thanks everyone for your company this evening, hope you enjoyed the debate. Aaaaannd… sleep.

sleepgif

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322 Comments
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute john healy
    Favourite john healy
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:31 PM

    Credibility now = 0. Well done Stephen..

    413
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    Mute Patches O Houlihan
    Favourite Patches O Houlihan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:51 PM

    The capitalist system is fundamentally based on the exploitation of the majority working class. Therefore any party or Independent which operates under the rules of this system will ultimately be forced to betray the majority of people who voted for them. Hence Donnelly’s acceptance of FF’s 30 pieces of silver.

    135
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    Mute Diarmuid
    Favourite Diarmuid
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:58 PM

    Clever guy, clever move.

    The days of the populist Looney Left are numbered.

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    Mute ktsiwot
    Favourite ktsiwot
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:10 PM

    @john healy:
    It is all about being a minister in the next government. And I bet you the next government will be FF led. It just goes to prove what a shower of Muppet’s the general Irish electorate are, the party that destroyed the country will be back in power within 7-8 years of destroying it.

    153
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    Mute Dick Durkin
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:14 PM

    Politics comes from the words Poly = many and tic= which is a parasite. So many parasites. They even tell you what they are but still people believe in their bull.

    69
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    Mute Patches O Houlihan
    Favourite Patches O Houlihan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:40 PM

    @Diarmuid:
    Ah yes, the “looney left” who loaded a €100+ billion of odious banking debt on to the peoples’ backs and broke the economy. Oh no wait………… That was the entire right wing establishment of FF/Green and FG/Labour . And the “clever guy” has just thrown in his lot with those parasites.

    This is a valuable lesson though for those who have illusions in the bogus “Independents” always ready to prop up the elite . The working class needs a mass party to represent its interests as our establishment political class have protected big capital at great cost to the majority since the foundation of the state.

    82
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    Mute Patrick Gough
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:47 PM

    human nature is the problem. jesus tried to change it. It ended up with the crusades and the inquisition. muhammed tried to change it. ended with Isis. Marx tried to change it. gave us stalin. aaa/pbp are trying to change human nature. good luck with that.

    17
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    Mute Emeralds
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:19 PM

    “That was the entire right wing establishment of FF/Green and FG/Labour”

    No it wasn’t. It was just FF/Green. They were in government, no-one else. And saying that the Green Party is right wing just makes you look even more foolish.

    15
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    Mute Patches O Houlihan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:35 PM

    @Emeralds:
    Really? You appear to have forgotten that FG supported the blanket guarantee and both the and Labour eagerly continued the austerity program to pay for the banker’s debts when the entered government in 2011.
    And the Irish Green party are enthusiastic free marketeers with a focus on the environment as evidenced by their support of FF in the coalition government which destroyed the living standards of the majority to save the banking parasites.

    24
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    Mute Patches O Houlihan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:37 PM

    @Patrick Gough:

    The problem is not with human nature. If humanity was a blindly selfish species as capitalist propaganda would have us believe, then we would have been wiped out by more powerful creature eons ago. Mankind has an innate affinity and empathy with fellow humans and we’re an inherently co-operative, social and community based species.

    Rather it’s capitalism which is the great problem of our time as it’s a system which is based on the exploitation of the majority working class in order to enrich the minority capitalist class. Capitalism will not manufacture a single item, provide a single service of employ a single person without the expectation of profit. That profit is generated by the workers in the excess value they create over and above their wages. That is the essence of capitalism and it’s inherently exploitative.

    This model results in a chasm of inequality with abject poverty on one side and obscene wealth on the other. Our politics, media and education systems are designed to obscure this harsh reality while our governments fully support this exploitative socioeconomic system.

    The reality is that there is more than enough real resources (land, energy labour etc) to provide everyone on the planet with proper nutrition, a decent home, healthcare, education, recreation and a job. It’s a political and ideological choice to deny people these basics, not economic misfortune.

    The solution is to manage our economic activity with the objective of meeting human need rather than for the purposes of accumulating obscene profit and hence power into private hands as occurs under capitalism. The choice facing us now is socialism or barbarism represented today by Trump, Le Pen etc etc

    10
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    Mute Willie Murphy
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:37 PM

    Wow… a politician who says 1 thing and does the opposite.. He’ll fit in like a glove.

    388
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    Mute Scarlett Milton
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:17 PM

    @Willie Murphy: ha ha haaaaa,he denied it for the last few years that he was joining FF, JUDAS Donnelly,people you have been had

    103
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    Mute LITTLEONE
    Favourite LITTLEONE
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 3:24 PM

    Has he now left the technical group of social democrats and greens of having no speaking rights in the dail now…

    40
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 3:49 PM

    So Donnelly is joining the most corrupt party in the history of our state to further his political career.

    I sincerely hope that the good people of Wicklow see through this foolish chancer.

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    Mute Joe Mc
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:31 PM

    Bye bye Stephen. You just committed political suicide

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    Mute Tony Skillington
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:07 PM

    100%…just shows how little any of them are to be trusted. Shame on him for selling out to the corrupt ideals of a shower of parasites. Absolutely no time for him anymore…

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    Mute Jonathan Pearson
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:50 PM

    I’m actually gutted to hear this. I always found him to be a great politician and overall an honest man. To see him join a party with dishonesty at its core is saddening.

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:20 PM

    @Jonathan Pearson:
    Well said.
    I too had great respect for Mr Donnelly

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    Mute Lord Clanricarde
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:40 PM

    Ya me too, I liked him and genuinely thought the SocDems could grow. I was hoping for a candidate in my constituency in next election! Now they are a bit of a mess and he’s at FF!

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    Mute Martin Critten
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:24 PM

    Me too, just sent him an email in total disbelief having criticized the old civil war politics.

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    Mute Jim Kirby
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:38 PM

    His comments on FFto date indicate that this conversion eclipses that of St . Paul on the road to Damascus by an Irish mile.

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    Mute Patches O Houlihan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:47 PM

    @Jim Kirby:
    Well that gave me a good laugh :)

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    Mute Tony Byrne
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:45 PM

    Hypocrite, I for one will not be voting for him again.

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    Mute Mr Snuffleupagus
    Favourite Mr Snuffleupagus
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:52 PM

    @Tony Byrne: He’s taking a big political gamble as many of his own constituents won’t vote for him either after this. But there’s no point spending your political career on the opposition benches and that’s what his destiny was up until today. Unlike a lot of TDs he has written his own proposals and budgets. even though I didn’t find any of his ideas particularly ground breaking or impressive, if he wants them enacted, he has to be in government.

    I think he’s been promised a big job in FF, and will sooner or later go back to his constituents and say “look, I can have a bigger impact on the locality as a minister and we need a minister here”. And that will get him considerable voting clout again. People love to have ministers in their locality as they are the ones who can make things happen in an area.

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    Mute LITTLEONE
    Favourite LITTLEONE
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:56 PM

    @Mr Snuffleupagus: if his taking a big political gamble as many of his own constituents won’t vote for him after this and what happens if he fails to get elected Because of this.. no minister will he be , possible not even a TD so what good was his gamble if he is out of the game..

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    Mute LITTLEONE
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:19 PM

    See on Twitter people within his constituency are saying he should resign his seat on principle , . Then bye election would happen and he should re run as a ff TD Because people didn’t give their vote to him and for him to join a party he ran against.. not sure if such thing is possible ….

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    Mute Adrian Henchy
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:48 PM

    Would be more than willing to bet you not only will Stephen Donnelly be elected for Wicklow in the next Election, he will be elected for many elections to come. Just my opinion.

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    Mute LITTLEONE
    Favourite LITTLEONE
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 3:28 PM

    @Adrian Henchy: going by Twitter.. a lot of his constituents are not happy….

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    Mute Blue MARIGOLD
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:38 PM

    Stephen Donnelly has been shown up to be (at best) economical with the truth. He will be a perfect fit for FF. A devious, opportunist of the highest order.

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    Mute Dissisus Corr
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:50 PM

    Well im v/sorry to hear this Stephen. But you lied when asked about joining ff . I have lost all faith in you as a person of integrity “shame on me” but you have to live with that . Ah well i live in hope of an truthful politician representing de people of Ireland. But your now in good company

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    Mute Mr Snuffleupagus
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:54 PM

    @Dissisus Corr: Lied, or changed his mind? Maybe he got an offer he couldn’t refuse and some promises from MM that will benefit his constituency?

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    Mute Tony Doyle
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:17 PM

    @Dissisus Corr: hopefully the god people of Wicklow will have the final (right) say…#sodisappointedinstephend

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    Mute watersedge
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:37 PM

    Beware of Cone Heads. They can’t be trusted.

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:34 PM

    FF hiring mercenaries, must be planning for fight.

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:55 PM

    I’d never presume to tell anybody how to vote, but based on this evidence it generally seems a vote for an independent is a wasted one, they never act in the national interests, only their own. We need a unified approach to rebuilding the country after FF’s mess.

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    Mute Pa Cantillon
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:32 PM

    Yuck

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    Mute William Clay
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:50 PM

    Another sellout.

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    Mute 3monkey
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:44 PM

    Goodbye Stephen.

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    Mute LITTLEONE
    Favourite LITTLEONE
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:40 PM

    So going by his tweets above. He once said ff and fg are the same. So now his joining up with ff who are in bed with fg and basically the one party. Talk about a u turn Stephen.. disappointed .
    So what you now are all for these parties….

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    Mute Paul
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:39 PM

    All the fools here and elsewhere telling me he is a great Td and so on, only out for himself!

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    Mute gowfc@yahoo.com W
    Favourite gowfc@yahoo.com W
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:33 PM

    This guy knoes how to party! He seems to be doing the rounds. And while I do still admire him – he seems articulate and aware – for the life of me I cannot understand why he would join a party that wrecked the economy just a few short years ago.

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    Mute james r
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:58 PM

    No surprises here folks the mans a leech just like the rest of ff

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    Mute John Somers
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:41 PM

    Jaysus if I was one of his constituents I’d be pretty livid. What a fukcing turncoat. He’s probably paying attention to the polls and thinking of the quickest way to get his nose to the trough. Hope his constituents see through him and give him the well deserved boot in the next election.

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    Mute Douvan
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:01 PM

    I voted for him in the last election but no more. What a sellout !!

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    Mute Seán J. Troy
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:09 PM

    Hope he gets booted out. Such a shitebag.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:30 PM

    so stephen was being mean to ff all this time because deep down he really liked them,good man stephen now theyll ruin u from within although youve just made a good start at it yourself

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    Mute jimmypnufc
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:38 PM

    Just another parasitic career politician

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    Mute Liam Flag
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:34 PM

    Absolutely disgusted I voted for him in 2011. Even more upsetting are the FF supportive messages in the comments section here!

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    Mute For Connolly
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:31 PM

    Its going to be interesting to see what he polls like in the next election. Nobody voted for Fianna Fails Stephen Donnelly last time round, after all.

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    Mute Ben McArthur
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 6:06 PM

    @For Connolly: Don’t be coy, Jammin. You used to tell us that Donnelly was the best politician in the Dail. Do you still think so?

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    Mute Ian James Burgess
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:52 PM

    More proof ,if it were even needed that you can’t believe a word out of a politican’s mouth.

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    Mute Michael Clinton
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:39 PM

    I have to laugh at the comments here saying he is this, that & the other. He is a career politician that couldn’t give a toss about you,me or anyone else but himself and the trough that is the taxpayer. They will swear on their kids lives that they will do everything but once in office they will do nothing , not even 10% of what they promise. I wouldn’t trust one as far as I could throw a ton of steel and believe one less. People say I am cynical but I have yet to be proven wrong. These people are career wasters that wouldn’t know a days work if it bit them on the arse.

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    Mute Nollaig Kelly
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:38 PM

    Another one who speaks with forked tongue

    Well done on losing your support

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    Mute @mdmak33
    Favourite @mdmak33
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:31 PM

    All about the money,thinks FF will be in government .

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    Mute David Clarke
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:47 PM

    Sad to hear this hope he loses next time out

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    Mute Brendan Glynn
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:56 PM

    If it wasn’t for FF’S mess he probably wouldn’t a TD to-day now he’s TC (turncoat ) He does not now represent the people who voted for him In principle he should go back to people and then he’ll find out if is to be a true ‘soldier of destiny’??

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    Mute Padraig Corcoran
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:41 PM

    As least Trump is doing what he said he would do. Let’s take to the streets in protest!!!

    23
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    Mute Joan Doran Kennedy
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:25 PM

    The Irish electorate deserve everything they get, populist politics live on!

    23
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    Mute Patrick Gough
    Favourite Patrick Gough
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:34 PM

    This is irish politics. sinn fein moving left and right at the same time. what next aaa/pbp uniting with rena?

    16
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    Mute Pa Cantillon
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:44 PM

    @Patrick Gough:Wha?

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    Mute ray.farrelly
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:58 PM

    Patrick Gough.do try an stay on topic this has nothing to do with Sinn Fein. You government mouthpiece.

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    Mute Patrick Gough
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:53 PM

    I’m not a government mouthpiece

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    Mute Reg
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:58 PM

    There’s a lot of disappointed people about. It was coming. You were had.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/stephen-donnelly-fianna-fail-independent-td-eamon-gilmore-1219708-Dec2013/

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    Mute Patrick Gough
    Favourite Patrick Gough
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:51 PM

    It’s politics. The word politics comes from the Greek poly= many tics= blood sucking parasite

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    Mute Todd Hebert
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:28 PM

    WTF is *ANYONE* a member of as political party? WTF does anyone vote for party candidates? Every elected official who is a member of *ANY* party should be voted out of office and an independent voted in! Party politics is, by nature, not in the interest of those being governed, but it’s in the interest of the party that is in power. This nonsense adjust be ended!

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    Mute Ollie Golden
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:40 PM

    Fantastic addition one of the outstanding TD’s in the Dáil

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    Mute For Connolly
    Favourite For Connolly
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:45 PM

    @Ollie Golden: I don’t remember you referring to him as outstanding when he referred to FFs, your partys, incompetence ollie.

    Hypocracy much?

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    Mute Garreth Byrne
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:43 PM

    Irish politics is still more about personalities than about policies. It is more about spin than about substance. It is more about promise than about product. It is more about talk than about action. Irish political philosophy is an oxymoron. Still and all I wouldn’t choose to live in the current political realities of USA or North Korea.

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    Mute Val Martin
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 7:00 PM

    @Garreth Byrne: You can’t do anything with the Irish. Stay at home on poling day. You are only encouraging them

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    Mute Rossa O Brien
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 3:49 PM

    What a toaster

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    Mute alphanautica
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:08 PM

    Good to see him join a party that has some hope of governing: takes courage to have actual responsibility rather than mouthing off from the sidelines.

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    Mute Eugene Comaskey
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:54 PM

    Ah, this is a good decision by an intelligent man.He has always been a bright, straight talking member of Parliament. He can see that FF is the correct place to be, especially now with a lot to them other malcontents getting itchy.

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    Mute Richard Parker
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:07 PM

    @Eugene Comaskey: I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion that Fianna Fáil is the correct place to be for a ‘bright, straight talking member of parliament’? Because as far as I see, Donnelly would literally be the first…

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    Mute Eugene Comaskey
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:47 PM

    @Richard Parker; Ah yes, He recognised the party that is making the most progress. He has made a good decision to get away from those malcontents. He was never one to just knock for the sake. Of knocking like them gang, he will do well.

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    Mute Shane Murphy
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:40 PM

    Seems to me he sees the importance of a strong voice to deal with Brexit and Fine Gael have not stepped up to the mark.
    He ain’t gonna be heard as an independent so in one sense I actually admire him
    He’s not stupid my any means and is willing to perhaps sacrifice his career by joining fine fail to make sure we are not screwed over by brexit

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    Mute LITTLEONE
    Favourite LITTLEONE
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 12:45 PM

    @Shane Murphy: by joining fine fail you think he his willing to sacrifice his career to make sure we are not screwed over by brexit. Don’t think joining the fine fail who happily screwed over the country and people it represents time and again is going to do much… He has just happily joined the screw over parties willingly…

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:10 PM

    Shane, or he’s making a play for the golden ticket, maybe the real reason he didn’t sit on the banking inquiry is because he had always planned to enlist, destinies child.

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    Mute Liam John Bradshaw
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:29 PM

    Sure the Dogs on the street knew it! Best of luck to him, I’m in his constituency. FF will benefit with his joining the party!

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    Mute Val Martin
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 6:51 PM

    I cant bear to watch politicians on TV. Stay at home and don’t vote

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    Mute Myles Fleming
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 8:59 PM

    The logic of Ireland knows no bounds. Fu(k/ng unbelievable.

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    Mute Patrick James Walsh
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 1:17 PM

    it seems stephen has disappointed some of his supporters and friends in the media this morning, a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth here and elsewhere, not to mention semi-hysterical hissy fits, lmao! for the rest of us though….

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    Mute Patrick Gough
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:38 PM

    He’s a politician. what do you expect. He wants power. he’s not a natural hurled on the ditch.

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    Mute Michael Wynne
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 10:31 PM

    I HAD a lot of respect for independent Stephen Donnelly and for a “Social Democrat” to jump to Fianna Fáil is beyond belief…But Gilmore was spot on in fairness to him. I just hope the people of Wicklow and East Carlow let this guy know their feelings over this because I doubt very much if he ran under the Fianna Fáil banner at the last General Election that he would be currently employed as TD for the region!

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    Mute Trevor Beale
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 2:03 PM

    If his vote means removing Harris and doyle from government people will still probably choose him at the ballot box.

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    Mute Dave O'Hanlon
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    Feb 2nd 2017, 9:14 PM

    And I thought the world couldnt get any more grim,Eamon Gilmore has been proved right!!!

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