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Well that was a very quick couple of hours.
The marquee debate between all seven leaders has left a lot of talking points, but not many clear winners.
The Social Democrats’ Stephen Donnelly will probably be the happiest, although in truth all the smaller parties did well.
There weren’t too many issues for the large parties, although having said that not much happened that will have improved their standing either, something Labour definitely needed to happen.
Here’s the full debate, as and how it happened at the University Concert Hall, Limerick.
Good evening and welcome to TheJournal.ie‘s liveblog of the second leaders’ debate of the 2016 general election.
This time round it’s the turn of RTÉ, who will have seven party leaders present for tonight’s debate in Limerick, moderated by Claire Byrne, which kicks off at 9.35pm.
Cianan Brennan here writing to you from HQ in Dublin. Our Political Editor Hugh O’Connell will be tweeting his analysis from @oconnellhugh and @tj_politics and he’ll have a full round-up after the debate concludes. Aoife Barry will be providing an alternate slant to proceedings from TheJournal.ie‘s main Twitter account @TheJournal_ie, and our scourge of the ill-conceived political statement Dan MacGuill will be on hand with FactChecks throughout the evening.
And if all that’s not enough you can tweet me @ciananbrennan with your thoughts on the night’s action.
Will tonight’s many-leadered debate be a relatively tame affair? Or will we see something akin to the below? Only time will tell.
Leaders have been drifting into the University Concert Hall in Limerick over the last hour or so, with Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin the first to arrive.
Renua’s Lucinda Creighton is also present and correct, and says that her strategy for the evening is to “be myself”. Interesting.
Before we get stuck into the debate proper, we’ll take a brief moment to remember Fianna Fáil councillor Joe Crowley who passed away earlier this evening while canvassing.
RIP.
One party that won’t be taking part this evening is of course the Green Party, who earlier went to the High Court to try and turn tonight’s debate into an eight-way affair.
The party currently have no TDs with RTÉ denying them their application to take part as a result. Their High Court action was earlier rejected.
There’s a lot at stake tonight. Very little movement was seen in the polls following last Thursday’s debate with few if any punches landing on that occasion.
That is a bit of a problem for the government. Fine Gael and Labour would be back in power following the election with each other if they had their preference. Unfortunately if the polls are to be believed the coalition won’t be returned as Labour won’t have enough TDs entering the 32nd Dáil.
One of the biggest problems for the coalition is that in many tight constituencies they are in all likelihood in direct competition with each other which isn’t ideal.
It seemed during Thursday’s debate however that the only coherent united force was still Fine Gael and Labour.
Meanwhile, tonight is the smaller parties’ chance to get stuck into the debate and to create leverage and opportunities for themselves once the election is done.
Or will they take aim at each other? Renua would dearly love to score some points over the Social Democrats you would imagine.
One thing’s for certain, Lucinda Creighton vs Enda Kenny could be one of the highlights of tonight’s debate.
One thing we do know is what order the various leaders will take: from left-to-right it’ll be: Richard Boyd Barrett (People Before Profit), Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin), Micheál Martin (Fianna Fáil), Enda Kenny (Fine Gael), Joan Burton (Labour), Stephen Donnelly (Social Democrats), Lucinda Creighton (Renua).
Are you excited yet?
So, let’s play some debate bingo. Which of these issues/phrases are we going to hear about tonight?
For what it’s worth, our money is on the word recovery being used at least a couple of hundred times this evening. Although probably not by the opposition. Anyone want to keep count?
You have to admit it would make things interesting.
Caption competition time.
What we really want to know is whether the gentleman in the mirror is sporting one of those man-bun things?
Four minutes to go folks!
Will Claire be able to keep a tighter rein on the leaders than Pat Kenny and Colette Fitzpatrick managed last Thursday? There really was a lot of finger-pointing going on that night.
Well, she’s got three more leaders to deal with so she may have her work cut out.
Here we go, the stage is set, let battle commence.
If that’s anything to go by Claire Byrne is going to be jumping on speakers all-evening long, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. She’s just banned the phrase ‘fiscal space’! But Richard Boyd Barrett had already said it so you’re still good if you had it on your bingo card.
Leave the jargon out says Claire.
First question is from on Pierse Duggan who wants to know why we should believe anything our political parties are saying.
Enda is first up. He looks a little… nervous maybe?
“We’re in a much safer position than we were,” says the Taoiseach.
Claire interrupts him mid-sentence. She wants to know about the abolition of USC.
Sound the recovery klaxon! The Taoiseach has just said “we must keep the recovery going” for the first time tonight.
Social Democrats leader Stephen Donnelly is having his introductory spiel now.
He doesn’t want to touch the USC Claire suggests?
“It’s a necessary tax for a stable tax base,” says Stephen.
The economic storm clouds are gathering, we all can see that.
Now Renua’s Lucinda Creighton:
“We’re proposing a flat rate of income tax,” she says.
This has really been a little dull so far.
Fianna Fáil’s leader is up next.
“The fact of the matter is Fine Gael now represent the biggest threat to the economic recovery,” he says.
We want to reduce USC, particularly for those on low incomes.
And now the Tánaiste:
“If there’s anything to be wary of it’s what the people of Fianna Fáil did to the country to wreck it.”
For every €1 of USC reduction we will provide €3 of spending and investment into the public services that people need, and into getting people back to work.
And here’s Gerry Adams to land the first zinger of the evening – he’s just described Enda, Joan and Micheál as the “Three Amigos”.
He reckons that Fine Gael have been “magicking up figures”.
Gerry has also gone for the jugular with a discussion of Fine Gael’s miscalculations of the infamous fiscal space.
But he didn’t use the phrase “fiscal space”. Devious.
Enda is not to bothered about this, and in rejoinder goes after Micheál Martin again, this time on the subject of mass emigration following the crash.
There really are a lot of people on this stage, but everyone is being quite courteous at present and letting everyone else talk.
They may have to split into smaller groups and have conversations among themselves at this rate – we’ve only got an hour and a half after all.
Just as we say it, the Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin leaders have turned on each other.
It’s one round of applause each as they discuss the Sinn Féin leader’s alleged IRA connections, and Gerry counters that Micheál’s party ruined the economy.
A second question from the audience. The gentleman asking it (whose name we missed, sorry), wants to know what the various parties will do should they come to power to stimulate business and employment in rural areas.
In response, Joan Burton says that her party has reopened the Garda college in Templemore.
Stephen Donnelly up now.
“Irish businesses can’t access the kind of funding they need,” he says.
What you do is reduce the cost of living. We have some of the highest insurance costs, childcare costs in the world.
Donnelly seems quite keen on pushing his economic ideas in a calm, considered way tonight. He needs a crash course in finger-pointing so he does.
Lucinda Creighton has the floor.
She’s talking about the situation with social insurance for SMEs and the self-employed.
“They don’t have the same advantages as PRSI workers,” she says.
And a second one for you:
“Labour pledged to reduce student fees, then increased them” – Micheál Martin.
Verdict: TRUE.
In 2011, Ruairi Quinn signed a pledge to reverse a Fianna Fáil-imposed increase in the student contribution charge, then €1,500.
After becoming Education Minister, Quinn and his successor Jan O Sullivan oversaw annual €250 increases in the charge, to its current level of €3,000.
For more detail, check out this article.
Time for our first FactCheck of the evening, which concerns the Tánaiste’s claims re Garda numbers.
FACT CHECK:
There are already 1,150 extra Gardaí on the streets since Templemore was re-opened -Joan Burton
Verdict: FALSE
The Tánaiste made a similar claim in last week’s debate, but the numbers simply do not add up.
In answer to a parliamentary question earlier this month, Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald stated that, since the re-opening of Templemore Garda training college in 2014, 550 new Garda trainees had been recruited.
She added that 296 of those 550 recruits were now stationed throughout the country.
Last year’s budget provided for the additional recruitment of 600 trainees by the end of 2016, but that recruitment has not actually taken place.
So the Labour leader’s claim that there are “already 1,100 new Gardaí on the streets” really ought to be “We now have 296 new Gardaí, 254 recruits in training, and an additional 600 expected to enter training by the beginning of 2017.”
Richard Boyd Barrett is up and he gets the first round of applause offered in anger.
Joan counters to not great effect.
Stephen Donnelly is now hitting out at the “faux outrage” being expressed on stage and around the country for nurses, doctors and guards.
“Compare that with the red carpet rolled out for Donald Trump buying a golf course by our Minister for Finance,” he says.
“I didn’t meet Donald Trump myself,” sniffs Enda.
Gerry Adams and the Taoiseach are now having words. Unfortunately for the Sinn Féin leader he doesn’t quite get his point across after tripping over his words and Claire steps in to take another question from the audience.
This one comes from Sharon who wants to know what’s going on at Ennis hospital.
In response, Micheál and Enda clash over broken promises when it comes to health services. There’s a bit of back and forth between the two. Enda thinks Micheál is “talking rubbish”.
Lucinda Creighton takes up the reins.
“There are so many layers of bureaucracy and middle management in our health service,” she says.
“But health stumps everybody?” says Claire.
“I disagree, we have to change strategy,” Lucinda replies.
Change the approach, bring the parties together, create consensus, and let’s have a 20-year vision, not a five-year one.
Cue applause.
Time for another FactCheck from Dan. This one concerns whether or not Micheál Martin denied that Ireland needed a bailout in 2010.
FACT CHECK:
In 2010, Micheál Martin said Ireland wouldn’t need an EU bailout – Kenny.
Verdict: TRUE
In a September 28 interview with Bloomberg News, Martin stated:
“By and large we are very confident we’ll come out of this. Clearly it’s challenging and so on, but there’s no necessity for the triggering of such a mechanism.”
It could just be us, but it feels that the the three leaders of the smaller parties are making their points far more effectively than the four mains, who seem more concerned with scoring points against each other.
Richard Boyd Barrett is up now – he’s enthusing about the National Health Service in the UK, though he acknowledges that the NHS isn’t a perfect system.
“You close down or downgrade the local A&E services and within a year you have chaos,”he says.
We warned Minister Varadkar about this.
It’s another round of applause for RBB.
“I’d be the first to admit that we haven’t achieved all that we wished to do,” says the Taoiseach in response.
“Are we citizens with rights, or do we not have rights,” says Gerry Adams.
What Richard just described happened in my constituency too.
FactCheck number four – did Micheál Martin cut 3,000 Garda positions?
FACT CHECK:
Micheál Martin cut 3,000 Garda positions – Gerry Adams.
Verdict: FALSE, but a butchered version of last week’s claim, that 3,500 Garda positions were lost between FF and FG/Labour. We rated that claim Half-TRUE, because it ignored parallel recruitment of new Gardaí.
The governments didn’t “get rid” of the positions, but from 2007-2015, there were a total of 3,577 departures from An Garda Síochána, most of which came from voluntary retirement.
So Adams is correct in stating the combined number of Gardaí who left the force during the tenures of the last Fianna Fáil-led government, and the outgoing Fine Gael/Labour one.
However, this obviously doesn’t take into account recruitment.
During Fianna Fáil’s time in government from 1997 to 2011, there was a net gain of 2,926 in Garda strength. During the tenure of Fine Gael and Labour since 2011, there has been a net loss of 1,078.
Joan thinks Stephen Donnelly is speaking in “management consultant talk”.
I can actually hear a stack of reports forming now,” she says. Zing
I would defy anyone to tell me that our A&E services are entirely bad.
“Remember Róisín Shortall Joan?” says Micheál.
She chose to leave the Labour Party because James Reilly wanted to look after people in his own constituency.
“All we’re hearing now…” begins Joan in response.
“All we’re hearing now is nothing,” says an impatient Claire. The audience love that.
Moving on…
Joan and Claire are now on a proper collision course.
“Would you mind answering the question Joan?” Claire says after something of a laborious Burton monologue.
Scenes reminiscent of Mary Lou McDonald to the Tánaiste at Dáil question time.
We’re now over an hour into the debate. Who on earth is winning?
Answer: no-one seems to know. Claire is doing a good job though.
We’re onto rent allowance now.
Time for another FactCheck – has the government really put “tens of millions” into rent supplement? This one isn’t good reading for Joan, who isn’t having a great debate tonight at all.
FACT CHECK:
The government has “put tens of millions extra into rent supplement” – Joan Burton.
Verdict: Very FALSE.
Total spending on rent supplement dropped by 40% from 2011 to 2015.
The number of individuals on rent supplement also dropped 36.7% during the same period.
“There are mums and dads who are tonight putting their kids to bed in the back of cars,” says Stephen Donnelly.
Donnelly wants a new housing agency.
Claire wants to know what the Taoiseach makes of the housing and homelessness problem.
“We have two kinds of homelessness in this country. We’ve the rough sleepers, who are on the streets and if they want a bed they can have one, that’s no problem,” says the Taoiseach.
He doesn’t say who the other kind of homeless person in Ireland is though.
FACT CHECK:
There were 3,000 ghost estates when government came into power, there are now 600 – Enda Kenny.
Verdict: Almost entirely TRUE.
The number of unfinished housing developments going into 2010 was 2,846.
The number going into this year was 668.
Well holy God – we’re an hour and a half in and we’ve just hit our first commercial break.
Tiiiiiimmeee for another FactCheck: this concerns a statement Gerry Adams just made about Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael’s respective records on health workers and beds.
FACT CHECK:
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael lost 7,500 health workers and 1,600 beds – Gerry Adams
Verdict: Almost entirely TRUE
From 2008-2014, acute beds dropped by 1,643, from 12,123 to 10,480.
From 2008-2015, the number of staff in the health service dropped by 7,377, from 110,903 to 103,526.
This may be the highlight of the night so far, Claire Byrne dealing a spectacular smackdown to the Taoiseach and Tánaiste who had started talking as one:
We’re back from the commercial break, and now we’re onto rural crime. What do the seven leaders plan to do about it, an audience member asks.
“I represent a rural constituency, and people are afraid they’re going to be burgled in their homes,” says Gerry Adams. He wants to reinstate rural Garda stations.
Lucinda speaks of her “Three Strikes and Out” rule – ie a life sentence for someone convicted three times.
“This is about serious criminals being taken off our streets,” she says, her strongest speech of the evening.
We make no apologies for saying so.
“Stephen Donnelly – you’re not really interested in crime are you,” asks Claire.
“We most certainly are Claire,” replies Donnelly, keen as they come.
But first things first we have to acknowledge that we have a first-rate police force.
“We need more gardaí, that’s what the force is saying,” says Donnelly, much of whose rhetoric this evening has concerned talking to “the people” and seeing what they need.
“We’re going to have endless amounts of guards if we continue as we are this evening,” snaps back Claire.
FACT CHECK: Government has closed 139 Garda stations – Gerry Adams.
Verdict: TRUE.
Last week, Adams claimed 140 had been closed, and we corrected it. Someone at Sinn Féin HQ obviously reads the FactCheck.
39 Garda stations were closed in 2012, and 100 closed in 2013. For a list of 37 of the 39 closed in 2012, click here. For a list of the 100 stations closed in 2013, click here.
Crime was always going to be a central part of this debate given the recent spate of brutal gangland killings.
What does Richard Boyd Barrett think?
“I’m interested in trying to deal with crime, by taking young people away from crime, by giving young people options,” he says.
“What about crimes that are happening tonight?” says Claire. She isn’t letting this go and she has Boyd Barrett backed into a corner, the least comfortable he’s looked all night.
“This is taxpayer’s money you’re talking about here,” she persists.
This is something we missed, and boy is it worth seeing:
If you can’t view the video click here
We’re onto our final question, and this one concerns 1916. 1916 klaxon!
Not really, it’s a sneaky way for this fellow to ask will Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil get into bed together in the next government. Now that’s a question.
Enda isn’t biting though. “We want the stability of returning the government that is in office, that is Fine Gael and Labour,” he says.
Fianna Fáil, they ruined our economy says Enda, they are not credible in government, and they don’t deserve to be in government.
“So you will absolutely not be going into government with Fianna Fáil?” asks Claire.
“Absolutely not, absolutely not,” shouts Enda.
Now then, that sounds pretty definitive. So if not Fianna Fáil, who is it going to be?
“The civil war was a long, long time ago,” Micheál offers helpfully.
“THANK YOU GENTLEMEN,” Claire roars when the two party leaders won’t stop bickering.
It’s all chat now about who’ll be in government and who won’t be. The key difference really between this one and the last debate in that no one present then wants to go into power with anyone else, apart from Fine Gael and Labour naturally. This time round there are people from parties who have their options open.
“We will only enter government if we see big changes when it comes to politics and accountability in this country,” says Lucinda Creighton.
“So you’re open to offers then,” clarifies Claire.
Gerry raises his hand. He wants to talk.
“And sure why wouldn’t you,” says Claire.
“I want the three amigos here to ride off into the sunset,” says Gerry with a big grin.
Three Amigos klaxon! It might catch on you know.
“Let’s get this crowd out,” Gerry finishes.
Richard Boyd Barrett denies that a vote for him is a vote for opposition.
“We deserve another term to continue our work,” claims Joan.
“Stephen Donnelly, who will you go into government with,” asks Claire world-wearily.
“I think Claire, that a vote for Labour – they are the only European left-wing party advocating a vote for a conservative, right-wing government,” the Social Democrat replies.
“We won’t be anyone’s mudguard in government I can promise you that,” he adds.
Here’s the second to last of our FactChecks for the evening for you to digest in the post-debate afterglow.
FACT CHECK: 300,000 jobs were lost under Fianna Fáil – Enda Kenny
Mostly TRUE but depends on what measure you use.
Net job losses from 2007-2011 were 437,202.
The number of persons employed dropped by 268,800 from 2007-2011.
For more details, check out this article.
It’s final message time – where did those two hours go?
The Taoiseach recovers his composure and says “it’s time to keep this recovery going”.
Lucinda Creighton says that Renua plan “to keep our promises and tell the truth”.
“We want to build a stronger, fairer and more prosperous Ireland. If you want more than what the establishment has to offer, please vote for the Social Democrats. Every vote matters,” says Stephen Donnelly, who has been one of the stars of the show tonight.
The Eighth Amendment makes its first entry via Richard Boyd Barrett who says he wants it repealed.
“Compre Labour’s vision of hope and optimism, and then contrast with the opposition’s ideas based on despair,” says Joan.
“Tá sé in am vótáil d’Shinn Féin,” says Gerry Adams (I think, apologies if I have got this wrong).
And suddenly it’s over. Claire wishes us all a fond farewell, and cut to credits. That was a very swift couple of hours indeed.
David McCullagh is up next on RTÉ One to discuss the fallout from tonight’s debate.
So what do we make of all that then?
On reflection it seemed quite a messy affair, which was perhaps predictable given the sheer number of voices on stage.
If you think of what was truly memorable from tonight, the kind of thing that might swing an election, there wasn’t all that much to choose from.
There was no over-riding gaffe, and most of the squabbling ended with just one winner – Claire Byrne.
Perhaps Lucinda Creighton’s ultra-strong push of her party’s policy on crime. Stephen Donnelly and Richard Boyd Barrett seemed to have the audience very much on side.
If we’re being honest, there didn’t seem to be that much to choose from between the leaders of the larger parties, apart from perhaps the Labour leader. Joan Burton had a tough night at the office is our feeling.
If one of the fundamentals for the government was to give a boost to the ailing Labour party its hard to see how that boost was provided tonight.
That is perhaps reflected in a Twitter straw poll just carried out by @thejournal_ie:
Our other poll at presents shows the Social Democrats as the best-performing of the smaller parties:
Our final FactCheck for this evening from Dan MacGuill – did 250,000 people leave the country under Fianna Fáil?
FACT CHECK: 250,000 people left the country under Fianna Fáil – Enda Kenny
Verdict: Partly TRUE – ignores the fact that Fianna Fáil oversaw significant net inward migration.
Kenny also made this claim last week, although then he framed it solely in terms of youth emigration. We rated that claim only “Partly TRUE”, by the same rationale as this week’s claim.
Here are the facts:
From 2007 to 2010, Fianna Fáil’s last term in office, 236,700 people did leave Ireland. But 380,100 also entered the country.
From 2011-2015, under this government, 419,500 people have emigrated, while 291,800 came in.
So Fianna Fáil oversaw net inward migration of 143,400, while Fine Gael and Labour have overseen net outward migration of 127,700.
We’re going to wrap things up here after a long night of political intrigue.
Hugh has just come up with the nine things you need to know about tonight’s debate if you fancy some more political chat before bed, while a thorough fact check by Dan on tonight’s claims and counter-claims will be up on the site before long.
And that is pretty much that. Thanks everyone for your company this evening, hope you enjoyed the debate. Aaaaannd… sleep.
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Give the house parties a miss till the bank holiday weekend in October. Come on people, get it together and stay apart.
@Twitruser2020:
The data doesn’t agree with Dr Glynn
Deaths continue to be low for months now and ICU admissions are on the floor. Sweden has one of lowest infection rates in Europe, no masks everything remained open, people haven’t being robbed of their way of life and their livelihoods.
@Twitruser2020: might all well party now. Halloween will be canceled by these psychopaths
@Seamus Hughes: but thousands of people have been robbed of their lives.
@Damian Mac An Bháird: Wait till devil’s night it will be some Friday to have some fun. Plus you can party the whole week as the bank holiday is early. Hold till then!
@Seamus Hughes: how would you compare our current status versus that of the UK? Considering the UK have the highest number of deaths in Europe. Sweden have a much higher death rate than Ireland. Ireland currently stands at 366.95 deaths per million, while Sweden is 573.79 per million! So what our government is asking isn’t a huge ask, nor is it difficult to follow! https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
@Twitruser2020: i will. I’ll b a good boy for the psychopaths
@Damian Mac An Bháird: So please explain how these medical professionals are psychopaths? I know we all have fatigue in relation to this covid-19 poop but they are just trying to save the vulnerable. I wouldn’t call them psycho I would call it empathic. Its not all about you, the greater good is what is required. Even if this policy saves one life isn’t that better. Just think about it.
@Seamus Hughes: I said it on another post, tis a bit sciencey and factsy that. He didn’t leave any room for hysteria, emotion and hyperbole.
We really need to start asking questions about these very blunt statistics we’re are presented with ad nauseam with absolutely no investigation or alternative views presented or permitted. Our loved ones are dying alone and afraid in nursing homes or in hospitals, there is untold suffering for those with other serious and life threatening diseases, the economy… well wait for that.
We cant afford another 6 months of these draconian restrictions, and even if we do, what then?
@Twitruser2020: No. Because isolation kills people too. So the one Covid death will be negated multiple times by the deaths caused by the loneliness suffered. Nevermind the hundreds of thousands on waiting lists or thousands of undiagnosed cancer cases caused by this policy.
@Monster Munch: agree 100%
@Seamus Hughes: go get the facts on Sweden – death rate 578 deaths per million (5846 deaths in total) Ireland 360 deaths per million (1781 deaths in total). Ireland and Sweden had the same rates in May but our actions stopped deaths. If Ireland had Sweden’s death rates we would have an extra 218 deaths per million (over 1000 extra deaths).
Everything did not stay open as before, social distancing and table service applied in bars and cafes and they were closed if they broke those rules. Over 90% reduction in journeys and public transport use. 20% of adult Swedes opt to weak masks. Case rate low as they stopped community testing and tracing for a period.
@Seamus Hughes: Sweden?? No, I don’t think so. Three times as many deaths and cases as us and this with a much lower population density. Four people died there yesterday alone. No thanks.
@Twitruser2020: Or until your government says so. 1984
@GrumpyAulFella: On a per capita basis they have about 1100 more deaths than us. However they did not stop screening for cancer or create the biggest waiting list in their history (not including the undiagnosed cancers). If just .18 percent on our waiting list die cos their treatment got delayed, we’ve saved no lives.
@Stephen Doyle:
Disgraceful comment
@Seamus Hughes: Yet there were calls for the Doctor in question to resign, after thousands died in care homes. They are the fifth highest death rate per capita in Europe. 5 times higher than Denmark and 10 times higher than Norway and Finland.
@Niall Ó Cofaigh: Sweden did not classify covid deaths if there was any other cause, whereas our figures include probable and with covid.
Normalising our data to Sweden’s reduces the deaths per million to close to 100 for Ireland.
@Monster Munch: cancer screening is open here, certainly for cervical anyway. Haven’t checked others. Per capita, last week, Sweden’s fatality rate was double ours. Their capital city’s population is much smaller than ours. Their population density is one third of ours. They have restrictions, secondary schools closed and universities closed, gatherings limited to 50 people, unnecessary travel banned. They postponed 10s of thousands of medical procedures as their health system began to collapse. Still they have 3 times the number of deaths. No thanks.
@Seamus Hughes: twice our population, 3 times our deaths….no thanks
@GrumpyAulFella: They have 1.8m over 65s we have 600k. Direct correlation there?
@Vladimir Macro: Thought you were moving to Sweden.
@Seamus Hughes: I’ll never understand people defending Sweden when they have a sparser population with a higher death rate. And to those saying we should party like its 2019, that will just make a lockdown inevitable on Halloween! So just do as you are told, we aren’t doing this for fun.
@Twitruser2020: no. Its live versus lives. That debate isn’t even being had.
@Monster Munch: not sure but wouldn’t Denmark and Norway share those over 65 stats? I’d expect that Scandinavian countries would be about 20% yet Denmark and Norway fatality rates are nothing like Sweden’s so I think we can conclude that the Swedish model is very questionable.
@GrumpyAulFella: They do. Yet Sweden fared worse than the other Scandinavian countries
@Seamus Hughes: ssshhh!! You’re not allowed say Sweden!!!
I think the point that’s being missed about Sweden is that they accepted that their would be a certain level of death, but it wouldn’t be the 60000 that the “experts” predicted, and that they would do there best to protect the vulnerable, something nearly every country in Europe failed in.
We pretended we could save everyone, and are still trying to in some sort of saving face effort…
The scoreboards tell one story, but the reality is the swedes are coming out for the 2nd half flying fit, with the wind at their backs, playing downhill, and everyone on the opposing side know it.
@Daire Kennedy: We never pretended we could save everyone. We did what we did to prevent our already poor health care system from being overburdened, and with the numbers being reported from Italy and Spain at the time, I don’t blame them. Taking those same figures from Spain and Italy, the Swedish government had no issue taking the route they did and were quite willing to sacrifice their vunerable for their economy. They must have been expecting 10,000s of deaths when they decided o the route they took. Either that or they did not take it seriously.
@Twitruser2020: It’s not house parties you need to worry about, looking at the green near my house.
@Joe_X: looks to me like they had a balanced approach, hoping they could protect the vulnerable while keeping the country running, time will tell if they got it right…
I doubt taking the action they did, they expected 10000s of deaths, whatever figure that is.
“We did what we did to…”, Why are we still doing it? That would’ve been a very reasonable response for 2 or 4, or even 6 wks into March, but we’re still pretending we can stop this from spreading, and that it’s a deadly virus going to kill 30000 people, when there is clear evidence it is not.
We have wasted a summer when the virus is at its weakest building up a decent level of immunity, and could be going through the same come January, while the swedes will be saunaing and skinny dipping together without a care in the world!!
@Niall Ó Cofaigh: Still spreading BS about Sweden’s death rate I see. According to the CSO, 92% of all deaths are over 65 yr olds. Sweden has three times the number of over 65’s as Ireland. Compare by age group (over and under 65) and you’ll find that Ireland and Sweden have very similar death rates.
@Paul Cunningham: They don’t have a sparser population and they don’t have a much higher death rate. Take the tin foil hat off and check your facts.
Next 3 weeks are crucial. Same shpeel for 6 months.
@Monster Munch: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/draconian-restrictions-around-covid-19-condemned-by-hse-doctor-1.4352701?mode=amp
‘Much less severe’ than the flu says this doctor.
@Monster Munch: He’s wrong. The vast majority of his colleagues would tell you that.
@ihcalaM: But you are not a doctor so you have no grounds to say that he is wrong.
That is your opinion based on the coolaid that you have been drinking.
Another scaremongerer, dismissing a medical professional, how refreshing!!!
@ihcalaM: He’s talking about the course for the average person. More often than not people that test positive for Covid feel absolutely fine. Where the flu absolutely knocks it out of you for about 10 days.
@Monster Munch: I wonder what the long term impacts are on the organs of those who have had Covid. Any idea? As one of the 470,000 asthmatics in this country I don’t think I would like to contract it thanks. I’m not even frail but my respiratory system would really struggle and I’d be concerned about the longer term impact of it on my body.
@GrumpyAulFella: I don’t know is the honest answer. Someone needs to research that and give more information re who is at risk and why. But I’d prefer to be worried about than to stress about having a lump I couldn’t get checked because screening is on hold.
@Monster Munch: screening is back underway though I think. I just checked cervical screening and it’s back so not really getting the point. I’ve been in 3 times since Mar for respiratory checks and no problems. It’s bound to take a while to fire up in full during a global health pandemic.
@GrumpyAulFella: The point is it should never have been stopped for an illness with a fatality rate of .3%. Sorry to hear about your own troubles. Hope they clear up etc. But I honestly think, if we keep this out of nursing homes, we’ll avoid major problems.
@ed o brien: or dismissing 1 medical ‘professional’ because all his peers say otherwise.Another ignoramus dismissing thousands of medical professionals. How predictable!!!
@Monster Munch: the fatality rate is just under 6%. Higher if you remove those cases that are asymptomatic and would only have been tested because they were close contacts (SARS-COV-2 vs CoViD-19)
@GrumpyAulFella: You, my friend, are very intelligent.
Same ole same ole. We have been spun this (next 3 weeks line) now for way too long .Government have egg all over their faces now because they would not open the pubs in July when the cases were in the low 20s every day day and now they are in the 200s and they will open them because they have no other choice. Watch all the spin coming down the tracks about saving the economy.
PUP well down on its peak which means people are back in work and kids all back in school which means more interaction and more cases.
Stay away from older or vulnerable people and we wont have as many deaths.
Curve flattened weeks/months ago.
Just more rhetoric from the establishment because they are have under invested in our health system for decades.
Its a casedemic now. Why have the deaths almost stopped? Asking for a friend.
@Colum Cusack: and why are our kids being forced to wear masks when there’s hardly anyone even sick from it also asking for a friend
@Colum Cusack: Because people it kills in any great numbers are the very frail. Same with lots of other things we didn’t lose our mind over. 16 or 17 deaths from about 5000 cases in last 2 months…
@Colum Cusack: stopped? There are still over 5,000 deaths a day. Just look at the bigger picture. We have almost no deaths now because of the actions we took. Ironically for all the “we have almost no deaths so open up everything” people are actually proving that keeping things closed has kept the covid-19 death rate lower than countries like the UK, Sweden, France and Spain and Italy. We do have to open slowly and carefully but put the brakes on until we are sure our last actions does not start seeing an increase in serious cases. Our flattened case curve is flat no more.
@Colum Cusack: Funny thing is, the cases started rising 10 weeks ago slowly, the hospital admissions have started rising about 6 weeks ago slowly. The ICU numbers have started rising slowly over the last 2 weeks or so…slowly. we had 3 deaths since the etart of the month…..I hope they stopped and not follow the trends of the other 3….slowly.
Just a thought… most of our deaths have been elderly or vulnerable people. Is it possible that the death rate is low now because these groups of people are actually sticking to government guidelines and are more vigilant than the rest of us. I know my elderly parents are. At present it is mostly under 45s and kids that are contracting it and that is why the deaths are low… Again, just a thought!
The Department of Health has hired a PR company “Teneo” to convey their covid “message “ better.
We need more permanent beds in hospitals, not spin doctors hired ahead of Monday’s announcements for 6 months ( that’s March 2021).
They have no intention of giving up the “special powers” on November 9th. I dread what further restrictions will be applied to people & business & the amount of manipulation they will apply to the messaging to get people to “beg” for more restrictions.
@Isabel Oliveira: AK 47 Alan Kelly brother from Labours xame company that was advising on the privatisation of our water.
@Isabel Oliveira: are these measures unique to Ireland? Just curious.
@Isabel Oliveira: It’s not ridiculous to suggest that the recent surge in cases may be due in part to the infantile and downright insulting tones coming from Glynn and Donnelly.
Grown-up messaging, albeit delivered by spinners, may have a positive effect on buy-in by the public at large and, more pointedly, by younger people.
Just a thought from someone who is tired of being addressed as though I was an imbecile.
78 out of 100,000 isn’t very many.
@Jim Lingk: How many is? People that could have lived another 10/20/30 + years had their lives cut short because of this virus, I’d bet if you or someone you know got sick from it you’d have a very different opinion. A bit of respect for the families of those who lost their battle with this virus wouldn’t go astray.
@Rachel O’ Meara: vast majority of people were in nursing homes. So very unlikely they had anything like another 10 years. Of course it’s sad for families but much sadder for all the other deaths which will be caused by governments over reaction with missed diagnosis and mental health issues.
@james foley: average age of the people that died was 84 with majority having underlining health problems, life expectancy in Ireland is 82, it’s sad, but say you’re right.
@james foley: Doesn’t matter if the elderly had even one more week left, the circumstances they died in not being allowed to have a family member in to hold their hand while they struggled to take their last breath, a final I love you mum/dad/aunt/uncle/friend etc. It doesn’t matter they deserved so much more and the final insult is fools like you saying ah shur they were going to die at some stage anyway. Clearly you have no respect for other people and no respect for life in general. If you were struggling to breath and death was a certainty wouldn’t you at least want your loved ones there in your final moments to comfort you? Grow up, they might just be numbers to you but they represent real lives that people lost to this virus.
@Rachel O’ Meara: plenty of people I know had it. How many people per 100, 000 get cancer? How many of them will die because everything is stopped due to a virus that is killing literally 1′s of people per week.
The difference between 10 in 100,000 and 50 in 100,000 and 200 in 100,000 is statistically irrelevant. In virtually no other field would decisions hinge on such tiny fractions and they are going to propose opening and closing areas based on it.
Wake up.
@james foley: Can I ask, but where are ye getting this information on missed diagnoses? I have had several hospital appoinments during the year, couple of them during the lock down. And actually spent a couple days in hospital during the lockdown and not a Coronavirus reason either. The only appoinment I missed was one I myself put off for a couple months because I didn’t want to add to an already heavily burdened system at the height of it. My mother in her 80′s has had several appoinments during the lock down not missed any. Is it just hearsay your going on? Is there a link I can look at so I can judge for myself?
Kildare was locked down but Dublin get an appeal. Come on govt show some leadership .
@Sean Nihill: have you looked at the ratio of cases:population in Kildare vs Dublin? No comparison! Kildare has a population of 220,000, Dublin 1,300,000.
@Helen Farrell: Kildare, Offaly and Laois were locked down at rates of 82, 80 and 69 per 100,000. Dublin is currently at 73 so it’s well within range of a very similar ratio at which other counties were locked down on.
@Helen Farrell: or have You looked at population density between the 2 counties. Dublin is 10 times that of kildare. Lock it down
@Sean Nihill: Watch “The Hunger Games” and consider yourself lucky..
@Helen Farrell: approximatly 1/4 of the country’s population resides in Dublin, yet in terms of cases, both daily and historically, approximatly 1/2 of all cases are detected there.
Open up everything again, rugby, football, shows, pubs etc, then we might have somewhere to go for fun, but instead there keeping us all locked up ! What do they expect any chance of meeting up with people, we Will jump at it .
And the Irish independent is reporting that the limits on people in our houses will be a maximum of 6 to 10 for the next 7 months no matter how low the cases are.
This is probably also going to apply to travel and hence the comment that we will be “allowed “to travel home for Christmas.
That’s why the government hired a PR firm . Beware of what’s coming as it’s far worse than the pandemic. The government is ready to carry on with draconian & dystopian legislation.
@Isabel Oliveira: let’s hope they do continue to lockdown, and sensibly, as the transmission rate increases. 5,000 cases in Spain alone yesterday, 30,000 deaths in 7 months averaging about 1,000 a week. I think think these restrictions will be unique to Ireland. In fact we know that they won’t.
@Isabel Oliveira: Hopefully the incompetence of our elected officials will shine through as usual and they will back track very quickly. Only few weeks ago we were being told pubs might not open till next year. Never forget these lads are just self serving and only looking to the next election they only see us as votes and nothing else. I can’t see many people actually adhering to the restrictions for 7 months (especially at Xmas) apart from the hard core bed wetters, but unfortunately they seem to shout the loudest.
@Thornto84: i hope you’re correct . I put on RTE Radio and the new advert for restricting your social contacts and your house visits is on , “ assume everybody is infected “ one of the lines . the talk show was about the same topic in total “Univision “ mode. It only teaches people to be afraid of other people & become utterly paranoid. As you correctly say, those petrified by this constant unhealthy fear inducing message hammered into our brains 24/7, shout the loudest.
Feels like the cases are going up in Dublin and it’s not being recorded as it’s mainly young people with moderate symptoms.
@RogersRabbit: That comment makes absolutely no sense, feels like cases are going up in dublin? That’s exactly what’s happening and you also think they are not being recorded? If they are not recorded how in the name of god are we getting new figures every evening?.
@Olivia Smith: An increase in cases outside of what is being reported. But due to the younger demographic who handle it better, the number of cases is underreported. Thanks.
Why isn’t that important “R” number being mentioned now, there was a time we knew the “R” numbers practically everyday? Is it so low hat it doesn’t matter, and yet numbers are climbing? Rather confused by all this!
@Freda Hanratty: it’s in the article I think. It says 1.4.
Dr Glynn says that cases in Dublin will double in a fortnight.
Which cases?
Those hospitalised?
Those admitted to ICU?
Active cases?
Or just those who return a positive test result?
The first two, hospitalisations and ICU cases have remained at a steadily low level since June, despite the increase in reported numbers over the last six weeks.
NPHET have refused to release the figures of active cases since the end of June, so nobody but them can tell if they double.
The numbers of positive test results has increased internationally at the same time as here, and there is growing uncertainty as to what they represent without corresponding increases in hospitalisations and deaths.
Dr Glynn and NPHET need to provide a lot more clarity.
Every 3 weeks he says the next 3 weeks are crucial!
Why are we seeing more cases on the increase
Reasons are. House parties . large groups socialising outside . no face masks . no social distancing. shoppers not wearing masks they think their immune to this virus or mabe just not bothered. Groups of 4 and 5 shopping together last night in Tesco . So irresponsible people will keep the cases increasing while the rest of us try and avoid it . Solution is supermarkets / shops.
. No Mask no entry. No group outing s just for groceries . Full stop.
@patrick hughes: more testing. You forgot that. More children getting tested. Hospital admissions and deaths are both low. Get real
@Jim Lingk: Hospital admissions have been on a steady rise over the last 6/7 weeks. A slow rise I admit, but then the daily newly confirmed cases have been slowly but steadily rising over the last 10 weeks, since the largest lifting of restrictions 11 weeks ago one follows the other.
@Joe_X: yes and the numbers are still tiny. As are the deaths. No deaths at all for nearly a month, then one from June that they forgot to reports, then 3 thay ronan Glynn doesn’t know when they death occurred. It’s a shambles and they need some advice to counter the nonsense coming from NPHET.
@Jim Lingk: we also had miniscule numbers of cases detected for nearly a couple of weeks both before and after the lifting of restrictions on June 29th. Now look where we are. Everything is happening much more slowly than the first time round. I hope the deaths have stopped, but I think it’s more likely, its just a slow increase we are going to see, like the other 3 indicators.
They be ridin’
@Maalouf: Away.
How come Kildare,Laoise & Offaly were served with a shut down, but oh no not Dublin
@Mary Garry: Crazy thing is, us Dubs didnt think it was fair that those counties were locked down due to outbreaks in meat factories, but the old GAA attitude against Dublin is shining brightly outside of the Pale.
Ask yourself though, how many people commute to Dublin for work, hospital appointments etc. Tens of thousands!!
And then they go back home to whatever county they came from.
Take off your county Jersey and see this as a national issue.
As always the sceptics and deniers, almost none of whom have any medical or scientific qualifications, dominate these threads, but the silent majority are just getting on with it.
@Patrick O’Donnell,Irish: Empty vessels make most noise, the same in any situation really.
@Patrick O’Donnell,Irish: I think the silent majority on the Journal don’t agree with the skeptics but only marginally (as evidenced by polls) but outside of journal and internet, the majority of people are either very skeptical of measures or willing to take the risk of life without measures
@Patrick O’Donnell,Irish: how right u are, there is a lot of people on here who seem-to know all the Medical & Scientific Knowledge about the virus more than the WHO or Dr Glynn & all his staff, they should have these jobs _ they would have it sorted in a few day, maybe we should start a petition
@Craig Halpatranags: I almost feel the opposite, as a very noisy minority constantly barrage their poorly constructed opinions about what should be done rather than take advice from the actual medical professionals. We aren’t doing this for fun.
Ronan Glynn is a disgrace to this country.
@Jim Lingk: cop on ,such a statement to make just shows how much u know !
Dubliners, please stay home and try to resist the urge to go the pubs when they open lol!
Swedish people are good at doing their civic duty when asked, unlike a lot of our countrymen
Tone deaf.
And women. Can’t be that good if they have 3 times the amount of cases and deaths than we do.
have your say