All nations suffered terribly at the hands of others over the course of history; whether it was invaders from overseas, their own kings or raiders from the next village.

Through Ireland’s highly exaggerated ’800 Years Of Oppression’ what was going on elsewhere in Europe, let alone within England itself?

Jake that was the most ridiculous comment of the week….. Well done

We could have our first foreign James Bond character

@Cal Mooney Tell me what today’s English population did to today’s Scottish population or explain how suffering that occurred hundreds of years ago is relevant to the question of whether or not Scotland today benefits from its union with England, Wales and NI today. Then perhaps your comment will make some kind of sense.

Sober up, Race….

Should independence be an end goal in and of itself? Is there no room for pragmatism in relation to a decision that will impact the lives of millions of people in and outside of Scotland?

It’s very easy to take an idealistic position from the side-lines isn’t it?

You mean “be given the opportunity to vote again”. You don’t have to change your vote just because you have the chance to.

Jake, Scotland is a net contributor to the UK treasury. They put in more money than they get out and yet they are massively under-represented in the Houses of Parliament. If you include oil, an independent Scotland would have a larger GDP per capita than the rest of the UK. Without oil, it’s almost identical anyway. They would also have a very low debt burden per capita once adjusted if they got independence.
The numbers would obviously be rattled once they got independence and they would suffer a bit of a slump for a few years. But your view of Scotland as a destitute economic wasteland being propped up by the generous taxpayers of South East England just isn’t accurate.
They are more than capable of looking after themselves.

Facts, not sideline sentiment. In the long run it makes democratic and economic sense for Scotland to become independent. Even outside of the whole pro independence romance story.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/public-spending-per-head-in-scotland-revealed-1-3197170

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-24866266

Please, read these and then come back to me with a more educated opinion. The better together campaign is s***ing itself for a reason, they are now losing and the UK will suffer far more than Scotland.

I am too lazy to read all that. Instead I will take your word for it and present it as fact in the next article :-D

How about making them pay the poll tax a year before bringing it into England? That modern enough for you Jake?

Don’t take my word for it. Have a read. Educate yourself a bit before assuming that the argument for independence is purely one from the heart. There are very pragmatic reasons to go it alone.

I didn’t realise that there were five million people living in Offally….where do they keep them all.??

And Joe – be like us? Bankrupt.

“These are facts and not scaremongering.”

Those are not facts I’m afraid.

Alistair Darling already conceded in the last debate against Alex Salmond that Scotland can indeed keep the pound. Although to be completely honest, the issue of currency is a huge red herring. The idea of being able to elect a Government that actually represents the people of Scotland trumps trivial issues like currency in the long-term. There are an array of currency options available to Scotland upon independence.

“An independent Scotland can’t keep the pound, it can’t join the EU without accepting the Euro”

Wrong again. The fiscal commission categorically stated that Scotland cannot be forced to use the Euro as a requirement for EU accession. It is voluntary. (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00414291.pdf – Scroll down to paragraph 7.37)

You’re just rehashing the same old trivial nonsense from the no side.

We are bankrupt because we elected politician parties who believed in deregulating financial institutions, trusting that these financial institutions would create vast wealth, and all would be well.

We were not alone in this stupidity, but there were other nations who elected governments who insisted upon retaining control of these greedy institutions aware that they were only seeking short term profit, and who cared little for the future consequences of their actions upon wider society.

These nations did not suffer as we have, and hopefully Scottish voters will have learned from their own experiences, and not elect leaders who will seek to return to failed economic policies.

I hope we have as well, but the opinion polls suggest otherwise.

Seán is right. Scotland will never be forced to join the euro. Denmark and the UK have opt-outs, and are the only Member States to have them. Yet despite not having an opt-out, Sweden still has the krona.

Certain criteria have to be fulfilled by a state, and as soon as all of those criteria are fulfilled, that state is obliged to join the euro. Much of the criteria relates to inflation and balancing the books, but the key factor is joining the European Exchange Rate Mechanism to stabilise the exchange rates. Once you’re in the mechanism and meet the other criteria, that’s it, time for the changeover. But the loophole lies in the fact that joining the ERM is completely voluntary. Sweden has not joined it, and as a result, 12 years after the launch of the euro, still works without consequence and completely legally using its own currency.

Poland is another example. It has been meeting all of the criteria for the last three/four years, but has not been obliged to join the euro as they did not join ERM yet, as they want to keep the zloty until the euro stabilises.

Saying that Scotland will have to join the euro and be financially governed from Brussels and Frankfurt is yet more scaremongering by the No side. Fear is all they have to get people to say No. Go for it, Scotland!!

Scotland cant use the currency of the UK. It can use the pound without the permission of the bank of England but then they have no lender of last resort and no control or influence on their own monetary policy.

The conditions for joining the EU is too join the Euro when they meet the conditions. The UK and Denmark have exemptions and the EU has been very clear that nobody else is getting an exemption.

If Scotland wants to join the EU after leaving the UK then they have to commit to joining the Euro. They don’t have to actually join the Euro, they can intentionally miss the requirements for as long as they want.

But an independent Scotland cannot join the EU without legally committing to joining the Euro.

That assuming that Spain would allow them in which is somewhat doubtful. They don’t care what happens to Scotland it’s not their problem. They just dont want to see the split up of Spain into a number of countries.

Why do you have to buck the trend in ABSOLUTELY EVERY article David?!

David is correct. All this Separatist flag waving and chest beating will soon subside when it’s realised that Scotland will have no central bank, no control over a foreign (GBP) currency and will have to wait at least 5 years for admission to the EU, whereupon they will have to adopt the Euro.
Scotland already has its own church, laws, legal system and everything else. The SNP have been in power for years and nothing has changed for the better. To suggest that post 18th September everything will be suddenly better is Socialist faery stories. There are many questions still unanswered, currency being only one.
The Separatists logic seems to be an independent Scotland, may be a mess, but a homegrown mess they can be proud of. At least if they don’t blame the English and admit responsibility for any hiccups that would be something.

“whereupon they will have to adopt the Euro”

It’s already been outlined that this is not the case. No country will ever have to join the euro. We have 28 countries in the EU, 18 (soon to be 19) of whom have adopted the euro, yet only two have opt-outs.

Explain how, despite the compulsion to join the eurozone that you speak of, the six countries with no opt-out are still all able to use their own currency in place of the euro. Alternatively, kindly stop with the false information.

*seven countries

Clearly, I’m not good at counting today.

It hasn’t changed for the better because Scottish taxes aren’t exclusively used in Scotland. They’re pooled into the UK coffers and they get less back than they put in because it has to pay for Westminster’s follies.

Because the countries who haven’t joined the Euro yet are still legally obliged to join the Euro when they meet the conditions. Eastern European countries still have issues with inflation and monetary policy but eventually when they meet the convergence criteria they have to adopt the Euro.

Nobody is saying Scotland ever has to adopt the Euro, they can legally sign a contract where they say they will and then intentionally miss the criteria.

The issue is they can’t sign a contract saying they are keeping the pound with the UK (if the UK allows it somehow) and then also sign a contract saying they will join the Euro.

Scotland can issue its own currency at parity to the pound like Ireland did and then join the EU saying they will join the Euro but never do so. That’s legal and workable. Though there are risks for the Scottish financial sector and of devaluation like Ireland.

But it’s a fiction that they could ever keep the pound and join the EU.

From the EU’s own website:
“Ten new Member States joined the European Union on 1 May 2004. Two more, Bulgaria and Romania, acceded on 1 January 2007. However, they did not introduce the single currency straight away: the new Member States must first show that they are ready to adopt the euro and meet the “convergence criteria”. As soon as these conditions are met, the new Member States will be required to introduce the euro.”
Membership criteria – Who can join?
The ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.

In regards to taxation Scotland ‘got’ £16.5bn more in UK public spending in 2009-10 than it contributed to total UK revenues – or a ‘subsidy’ of around £3,150 per head.

David, stop scaremongering of course Scotland can have the pound because they own it the same as England. When the UK removes it’s arsenal of nuclear weapons Scotland can decide for itself if it wants to remain with Nato. The Uk is a member of the Treaty organisation, it certainly doesn’t decide who is in or out. The same goes for the Eu where Scotland is presently represented in Europe as part of the UK they will remain in even if the rest of the UK decides to leave.

Chris, wrong. GBP is the currency of the UK. Scotland could continue to use it, (or USD Yen or Roubles) but they certainly won’t own it. They would have no control over what would be a foreign currency regulated by the Bank of England. Scotland as a new country would have to seek admission to the EU – already that’s stated to take about 5 years and not a certainty.
You (and the Yes campaign) need to distinguish what you’d like to happen given best case scenario with what the actualities are.
It may be a case of after legal negotiations Scotland is left with egg on its face and the rUK saying “I told you so”. But at least they’ll be “free” to ponder their situation.

The Queen doesn’t need to worry because the Scots will scrap the bedroom tax. She might have to declare her passport though and register as an immigrant.

Donegal is north of Ireland.

I’d be interested to see what would happen if the English were allowed to vote on their own independence.

Not really Emily. The British love their Queen – and the status quo would be maintained.

If Donegal declare UDI they will be called the Real Northern Ireland

Wales is no more a country in the UK than Cork in Ireland, it is a part of England in reality and its residents bar some small pockets in the North all see themselves as basically English.

Absolute rubbish roc.

Rochelle, you don’t know many welsh people so you? They have managed to keep their native tongue alice and have over 90% fluency rates, they are just as proud of their independent nation as te Scots

Never knew the welsh language was called “alice” … I live and learn .

Could be a total fukip if Nigel Farage gets any more power!

Our bankruptcy was caused by us, the voters. Don’t blame the people that we, ourselves, elected.

Independence is not the only goal. Here, if it wasn’t deemed so important, so many lives would not have been lost/ruined.

We are a laughing stock of a country. Corrupt politicians/Haughey +; Paedophile clerics/Fortune+;Banksters/Fingleton+

The Wikileaks told us of the real USA view of Ireland. Soooo right!!

Off to mass now, then to watch GAA…..

Yes, we just continue to live in the past. And we didn’t even notice that our clergy, politicians and bankers were vile and corrupt.

But, our independence is so right and important!!!

And also, we didn’t actually go bankrupt.

Keep living the lie, Connors….

While I don’t like almost any of gravels posts I have to say I agree with most of what is has written , we are a soft touch as a country , every single leader of this country since the state murdered its way to power in the civil war has striped the people of the natural resources ,that includes the people themselves through immigration , and sold them off to finance the corrupt “elite interests “.
And we let them do it to us everytime and then cry foul , it was our ancestors who marched their pregnant daughters into the work house and then licked the alter rails , we are as much to blame for the situation we are in its time to grow up and take back our sovereignty and act for the next generation , however we did not bankrupt ourselves we were fed money the same a junky is fed a drug and was then taken away from us and then sold at an inflated price as per the plan ..this pattern is as old as time

Michael Fagan??

Who he?

There was a fishmonger …. And no one could save her