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AS IT HAPPENED: Prime Time Seanad debate

It’s Richard Bruton versus Michael Martin, and it’s live.

TONIGHT, RICHARD BRUTON and Micheal Martin went toe to toe on the RTÉ stage.

Debating the merits of the Seanad, the two were joined by a live audience of campaigners and, for a while, things got feisty.

Miriam O’Callaghan managed to keep them on topic for a while, though.

Here’s how it played out:

To kick us off, here’s what the UPC box has to say we can expect:

Before the real business gets underway, there may be some of you out there a little bit lost on what Friday’s vote actually means. No problem, swing over here and get all the facts.

There are two referendums (yes, referendums) on Friday, of course, but the Seanad is sexier than the court of appeal, it appears.

The Seanad being the more glamorous of any topic is rarefied ground and the upper house is lapping up its moment in the sun.

But will it be a lap of honour?

Miriam O’Callaghan is here in blue and white, while Bruton and Martin both look ready to rumble. Let’s get it on.

A Led-Zeppelin soundtracked package from RTÉ. Tune.

In the blue (tied) corner: Richard Bruton urges Ireland to “do more with less”.

We will manage our affairs better with less politicians.

“The Seanad is deeply undemocratic and ineffective,” he says.

He wants a stronger role for committees and Dáil members, as well as outside groups and experts.

He says that Ireland must move into the 21st century.

In the red (tied) corner is Micheal Martin.

The Fianna Fáil leader says that the abolition of the Seanad would give the government more power than it has now.

I’m voting no because a reformed Seanad can give the better expertise that Ireland needs

The only way to force real reform is to vote No on Friday.

RB: We have an obsolete institution in the Seanad. The last time it even delayed legislation was in 1964.

All legislation will go to public hearings. That means that the public shapes the legislation from the get-go.

MM: Removing the Seanad will halve our parliament and take out the opportunity for alternative voices.

The fundamental element of democracy is debate.

Martin says that the Dáil has not lost many bills in 50 years, sparking the first real barbs of the night. Miriam is straight in to separate the two. Feisty opening.

Here’s the scene:

Micheal Martin hits back at the notion that he is arguing for a No vote to get on the TV.

I’ve never had a problem getting on programmes like this.

Once again, Bruton interrupts and Miriam is now exasperated.

“Don’t talk over each, it’s pointless,” she says. She’s right.

RB: The Dáil will now have powers to investigate in the public interest.

Bruton fires the first “financial collapse” shot across Martin’s bows.

Bruton wants to talk about when his opponent was in cabinet, but Miriam is having none of it. She wants to keep it on track.

Micheal Martin was in a government that received a number of reports on Seanad reform, so why is he now arguing for reform from the opposition benches?

“The government chose not to give the people the choice of reform.”

Would a reformed Seanad lead to a situation like the US government shutdown? Micheal Martin says no.

“It would not be comparable.

“When other countries abolished their second houses, it was accompanied by stronger regional assemblies and constitutional change.

“What is happening on Friday is unique in Western Democracy. We are being asked to vote on a change without any constitutional protection.”

Eoin Morris is in the audience, he says that abolishing the Seanad is “an attack on democracy”.

He makes the point that “just because a fire escape is never used, you don’t tear it down.”

Eugene McCormack, another audience member, says that he hopes that this argument will focus the minds of politicians on political reform.

Professor John Crown, who is a senator, says that the Taoiseach should be here.

He says that we are being told “lie after lie after lie” about the Seanad.

The Seanad has made 550 amendments to legislation this term alone. One third of legislation on our books originated in the Seanad.

Why isn’t the Taoiseach here?

Richard Bruton doesn’t think it’s relevant.

It’s not a personality contest. It’s your vote and your Seanad.

Eamon Delaney from One House is in the audience.

He says that the Seanad attendance record is reason enough to abolish it, pointing out that Fianna Fáil’s senators are some of the worst offenders.

However, Micheal Martin says that is “attack politics”.

That’s the kind of debate the Yes campaign has been at. Playing the man, not the ball.

The issue of cost is dominating now. Richard Bruton says that it will be up to the Government to deliver the savings of €20 million that has been a cornerstone of the Yes campaign.

He says that Oireachtas staff can be redeployed under the Haddington Road Agreement.

We would give a right arm for some of the people that could be redeployed.

Martin fires back that “nobody in officialdom has endorsed that figure”.

Matt Carthy, a Sinn Féin councillor, says that the big lie f the campaign is that a No vote would lead to reform, saying that Martin cannot advocate a No vote given his history.

The Seanad has been a plaything for Fianna Fáil. As it stands, it must be abolished.

Joe O’Connor from the Union of Students in Ireland, says that experts are being removed from Oireachtas committees and, as such, the government did not have the “credit worthiness” needed on the Seanad issue.

Michael Martin is in on the attack against the notion of his party using the upper house as a “creche and retirement home”.

“Gerry Adams, as early as last July, said that this was a power grab. He called it a democratic coup d’etat.”

Matt Carthy says that if Micheal Martin wanted to debate the Sinn Féin leader, he should have accepted his offer to debate.

And we’re gone to break for the first time.

Who’s winning? Has your mind been changed? Email paulhosford@thejournal.ie, tweet @PTHosford or @TheJournal_ie

Here’s Richard Bruton’s stack of notes. He came prepared.

And we’re back.

Barrister Anne Fitzpatrick is in the audience voting No.

She says for two reasons: “What next? And why the rush?”

“We are being asked to change our constitution when there is no proven Dáil reform in place.

We could have had this debate when we’d seen whether the Seanad was fit for purpose.

Independent Tullamore councillor Sean O’Brien does not like the Seanad, not one bit.

“I don’t care if it is €20 million, €6 million or 1 million it is too much.

It is a nursery for budding politicians and nursing home for failed politicians.

Glenna Lynch from Democracy Matters says that the “dishonest and cynical posters around are the wrapping paper around a hand grenade that is being dropped on the constitution”.

She finishes “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

Martina Devlin of One House says that reform is “an alluring concept” but simply won’t happen.

Richard Bruton says that the No campaign has “50 shades” of what they want the Seanad to be.

He says that the No campaign wants the Seanad to remain undemocratic.

This, via @gavreilly, is what Fianna Fáil had to say about the Seanad in 2011:

Micheal Martin denies that the very existence of the Seanad “shames” the country.

The two are talking over each other again and Miriam is deeply, deeply unimpressed.

Miriam asks Richard Bruton is he just looking to abolish the Seanad because it is a “nuisance”.

He says no and that the chamber is built to be controlled by the Government.

“But you also control the Dáil,” says Martin, to chuckles from the audience.

Fergal Reid says:

If that’s what you’re into, Fergal…

Bruton maintains that committees and public hearings would allow experts more access to shaping legislation.

If you are having a debate on harbours, you want an expert on harbours, not a professor of poetry.

Patricia McKenna, the former Green Party MEP, is here for Democracy Matters.

She says that there will be no protection from Europe without the Seanad.

Blair Horan of One House says that universal suffrage is not an answer for the Seanad.

Sarah Jane Hennelly is a No voter who is not affiliated to any party.

She says that the cost argument is a “red herring”.

Labour councillor Tom Kelleher says that most people have no vote in the Seanad elections, but he has six.

Showoff.

Martin says that Fine Gael have scrubbed any record of a 2009 speech that Enda Kenny gave in favour of the Seanad.

Bruton says that the abolition of the Seanad is a “compelling case”.

It is an institution that has served politicians not the public.

Martin urges people “not to shut down a platform for alternative and contrarian voices”.

With that, we’ve run out of time.

Miriam O’Callaghan urges voters to exercise their rights on Friday.

So, who scored more points?

So, what’s the general consensus?

On the debate, it seems fairly mixed, but Taoiseach Enda Kenny has come in for some criticism on Twitter for his no-show.

However, writer Colm Tobin has another theory.

Commenter Tigerisinthezoo has a somewhat unscientific method for determining a winner:

And, with that, it is time to retire the live blog.

Tomorrow, TV3′s Vincent Browne will host his own debate, though the participants are yet to be confirmed.

Then, on Friday, comes the real business, as the country goes to the polls on two referendums.

Thanks for being with us this evening, good night.

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224 Comments
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    Mute Patrick McConville
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:03 PM

    Enjoy Summer Outdoors? Good luck with a fearful, incompetent, under the cosh of NEPHET government, a dreadful Dublin City council and a media that just loves a crowd of “revellers” to wag the finger at. How far we’ve fallen from our self congratulatory liberalism, and how fast…..

    545
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    Mute Alan Biddulph
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:09 PM

    @Patrick McConville: Get of the stage Patrick you drama queen, they don’t all have to gargle on a postage stamp in the middle of town. I remember Paddy’s day in around 2002 when gardai on horse back ran people out of the park, mostly teenagers like myself all drinking and enjoying the weather. There’s loads of other places to go.

    295
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    Mute Special_Ed
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:11 PM

    @Alan Biddulph:
    Is that you Tony?

    169
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    Mute Jason Shortt
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:13 PM

    @Alan Biddulph: people, including teenagers, should be able to use any public space that they want, so long as they’re not damaging the place. These a are ‘public’ spaces ffs!

    144
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    Mute Patrick McConville
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:19 PM

    @Alan Biddulph: If the Garda and DCC did their job, this wouldn’t have happened. In Paris, alcohol was banned from parks with checks on the gates to ensure the frigging things stay open for everyone. Yes, alcohol is a problem. Hammer and nut is NOT the solution. Another example of zero nuance, zero ideas, path of least resistance. Are we a society or not? Pulling out the shame hose on the people when you couldn’t be ar-sed doesn’t build citizenship. Looks like a response though. Muppets.

    71
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    Mute Alan Biddulph
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:19 PM

    @Jason Shortt: Nothing against it at all, I’m delighted to see a bit of life in the city but I’m afraid it going to prolong the agony for the rest of us waiting for pre covid freedom to come back.

    56
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    Mute Jason Shortt
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:22 PM

    @Alan Biddulph: cowering from NPHET and the government got us nowhere. Isn’t it time we said enough of this bloody nonsense?

    79
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    Mute Alan Biddulph
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:38 PM

    @Jason Shortt: Yea I agree, it feels like forever.

    27
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    Mute Terry Tibbs
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:07 PM

    How about dealing with the trouble makers and let the normals enjoy the park.

    277
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    Mute Martin Galvin
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:22 PM

    @Terry Tibbs: All the oul ones forget their youth very quick, and think they own the place …. If they abhor all the activity outside, what they should be doing is getting back into their cocoons until they get the booster jab ….

    77
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    Mute Maria
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:54 PM

    @Martin Galvin: I walked through the park today and I saw 4 men urinating in public and a young girl of no more than 16 vomiting. This was at 3pm with lots of kids around having finished school. I have no issue with the park being open but the mess / smell / behaviour was not great with kids around. I can understand why they closed early

    167
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    Mute Diar O Doc
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:21 PM

    All thats needed is some proactive, positive policing in the city centre. Visible garda on foot interacting with people and making it known they have to behave themselves. Everything the Garda do is reactive, as if they’re surprised by everything that happens, everytime it happens. Reform and rethinking of approach badly needed in our policing community.

    218
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    Mute Jason Shortt
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:26 PM

    @Diar O Doc: well said.

    44
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    Mute Pol Mlp
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:03 PM

    Back in my day..underage drinking was done in bushes or woods…these kids are fairly brazen arnt they?

    268
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    Mute IAmTheTruth
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:09 PM

    @Pol Mlp: wont find many woods in the city centre tbf

    81
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    Mute Patrick McConville
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:57 PM

    @Pol Mlp: Yes, and kissing was done in corners, gays were just going through ‘a phase’ and mother’s lived with their babies in homes. Jesus flipping wept…

    72
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    Mute Stuart Doherty
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    Jun 4th 2021, 7:40 AM

    @Patrick McConville: so you’re rationale is that openly urinating in public and puking your guts up in full view of everyone is a sign of us moving with the times and should be celebrated as progression as a nation..? Jesus and a few other lads would most definitely be weeping…

    48
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    Mute Gavin Linden
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:10 PM

    Going to be an interesting weekend nation wide.

    149
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    Mute Ray Browne
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:12 PM

    Why are the Garda so passive,just arrest people and have zero tolerance otherwise no deterrent!

    130
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    Mute Jason Shortt
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:20 PM

    @Ray Browne: yep, let’s start arresting people for the crime of ‘gathering in a park’. They were told to enjoy ‘an outdoor summer’. Guess what, it’s summer. At least half the people in this country have lost their grip on reality.

    170
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    Mute Eamonn Martin
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:46 PM

    @Ray Browne: Excellent idea. Maybe if people are caught having fun twice, we could make them wear a badge so all the righteous can stay away. What do you think about the star of David.

    74
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    Mute Bluechip78
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:58 PM

    @Jason Shortt: He didn’t say to arrest people for gathering in the park. But if you’re drinking while not being of the legal age, being abusive or causing a disturbance then why shouldn’t you be arrested

    79
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    Mute Jason Shortt
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:11 PM

    @Bluechip78: he didn’t specify what he thinks people should be arrested for. There is not even any mention of people ‘being abusive’, or of anyone ‘causing a disturbance’ in this article (unless you mean the two people who were seen moving a temporary fence earlier in the day). And ARREST young people for having drink – are you effing serious?

    17
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    Mute Sue OB
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:42 PM

    @Jason Shortt: yes enjoy an out door summer responsibly, gardaí were called to the park because of under age drinking, id**ts also pulling fencing from bandstand. Dont blame them closing park if this was the carry on early in the day. Things would have gotten worse as the more alcohol was takent

    39
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    Mute Jason Shortt
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:57 PM

    @Sue OB: according to the article, it wasn’t “early in the day’. It closes at 9 and they closed it an hour early. There was mention of just 2 people moving a temporary fence earlier in the day. The article says that the park was closed due to large numbers of people ‘gathering’ in it. Public spaces are owned by the public. The gardai have no business telling people they can’t enjoy public spaces.

    20
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    Mute GClare
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    Jun 4th 2021, 2:52 AM

    @Jason Shortt: they can if they are drinking in public, whatever the age. 2 people moved the fence and plenty more bundled in, people need to decide if they want to protect historical structures or not

    18
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    Mute Drunk in Dublin
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    Jun 4th 2021, 7:41 AM

    @Eamonn Martin: you’re sick

    2
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    Mute Patrick FitzGerald
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:16 PM

    “Donoghue said there was a disconnect between the elected councillors’ wishes for how to create an outdoor summer, and those of unelected decision makers.”

    Says it all. There needs to be a root and branch reform to make the council executives entirely subservient to the wishes of the elected councilors.

    70
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    Mute #FreePalestine
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:27 PM

    @Patrick FitzGerald: Yes I have a serious issue with the undemocratic nature of council executives.

    45
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    Mute Virgil
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:40 PM

    Is it true that only 0.1 % of Covid is spread outdoors? If so, what’s the fuss about ?

    61
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    Mute Kevin Thompson
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    Jun 4th 2021, 5:54 AM

    @Virgil: if the public measures are taken ie masks, social distancing etc. You are 20 times less likely to catch Covid outdoors compared to indoors. If you are standing inches apart instead of 2 metres and wearing no masks that number of 20 comes way down.
    The 0.1% relates to group outbreaks and not one to one transmission. Also there is around 20% community transmission ( unknown source of transmission) in this country.

    11
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    Mute Kevin Thompson
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    Jun 4th 2021, 5:57 AM

    @Virgil: also some people get buses to and from these places so there is also a greater transmission risk there.

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    Mute El_Duderino
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    Jun 4th 2021, 7:48 AM

    @Kevin Thompson: Exactly, the buses and Luas and the Dart would be packed to the doors after people are finished drinking in town.

    5
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    Mute Nick Caffrey
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:59 PM

    My understanding of democracy, from this response to the article, is that everyone must be allowed to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want, and that the authorities who are charged with maintaining the democracy must not do anything to hinder anyone.
    I’m an alien from another planet and this seems illogical.

    53
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    Mute Drunk in Dublin
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    Jun 4th 2021, 7:44 AM

    @Nick Caffrey: the lack of social responsibility these days is shocking.

    21
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    Mute Johnny G
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:44 PM

    Absolute joke, close off the area where people can breathe and enjoy themselves after a prolonged lockdown… Shame on our city officials

    61
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    Mute Gavin Mckenna
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 11:46 PM

    @Johnny G: Ah Johnny….missing the point here its the vandalism that’s the issue along with p!ssing and vomiting in bushes nowt to do with breathing ir outdoors. Nice try though.

    61
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    Mute Gavin Mckenna
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 11:44 PM

    Whatever about outdoors on Sth Williams Street etc no issues for me, however it’s the ripping down fences around a 100 yr old stand in Stephens Green and then swinging from the roof… Just pure brazen.

    52
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    Mute Mick.
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 11:14 PM

    If we want to control unruly crowds in the city then we have to take the restraints off the Gardai. Let them act like the Guardia Civil in Spain or the Gendarmerie in France when dealing with mobs.

    40
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    Mute Special_Ed
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:07 PM

    C’mon folks, we’re all in this together…. I’m sick of people saying the CSO Statistics for all cause death and hospital occupancy fail to demonstrate that 2020 was anything odd. In terms of both numbers, for the past 20 years(I know I’m currently on a connected device where I can verify this for myself within 5 mins…. but). We need to trust RTE… “Do your part”…. “Hold Firm” n’ all that.

    35
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    Mute andrew
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:06 PM

    Can’t people go outside and not gather in football team size groups.

    33
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    Mute Big Tel
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:47 PM

    @andrew: Considering football teams have indeed been allowed gather outside for a month now, this could be the stup1dest comment I’ve read on The Journal for some time. Quite an achievement.

    17
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    Mute Nick Caffrey
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 10:53 PM

    @Big Tel: Now, what is it that sarcasm is supposed to be…. I forget…

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    Mute El_Duderino
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    Jun 4th 2021, 7:49 AM

    @andrew: Football teams wouldn’t be so bad. That’s only 11 people. Football supporter crowd size is the problem. That’s hundreds and thousands of people

    3
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    Mute Verners Tess
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 11:25 PM

    According to a New York Times article on May 11th, the US CDC have said no recorded case of Covid from outside transmission worldwide

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html

    I would love to know if NPHET and the all knowing Tony would think of this?

    28
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    Mute Colin Heffernan
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 11:47 PM

    Don’t you mean St Stephen’s Green? What’s the agenda with dropping the Saint reference? Where’s Stephen’s Green? Beside Stephen’s House? Which Stephen? So many questions…..

    17
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    Mute JustMeHere
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    Jun 4th 2021, 12:43 AM

    @Colin Heffernan: Wow. Get a life Colin.

    32
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    Mute Colin Heffernan
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    Jun 4th 2021, 12:07 PM

    @JustMeHere: Wow? Do you normally get so excited when someone points out a glaring error? Wow indeed! You must be one of those anti Christians?

    3
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    Mute Phylly Lane
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    Jun 4th 2021, 12:08 AM

    People who grew up in the surrounding areas always just called it the Green.

    14
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    Mute Colin Heffernan
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    Jun 4th 2021, 12:17 PM

    @Phylly Lane: That’s because your personal context is local, there is no other Green, only St Stephen’s. The Journal is a National and even International news media. If there was a murder in Eyre’s Square, and Galway people only referred to it as ‘The Square’, and The Journal reported a story about a body being discovered in The Square, no one outside Galway reading this would understand where this murder took place. Hope you understand that. Take care and God bless.

    4
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    Mute Jon Kelly
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    Jun 3rd 2021, 9:17 PM

    Ah! Leave it out!

    11
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