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TONIGHT, RICHARD BRUTON and Micheal Martin went toe to toe on the RTÉ stage.
Debating the merits of the Seanad, the two were joined by a live audience of campaigners and, for a while, things got feisty.
Miriam O’Callaghan managed to keep them on topic for a while, though.
Here’s how it played out:
To kick us off, here’s what the UPC box has to say we can expect:
Before the real business gets underway, there may be some of you out there a little bit lost on what Friday’s vote actually means. No problem, swing over here and get all the facts.
There are two referendums (yes, referendums) on Friday, of course, but the Seanad is sexier than the court of appeal, it appears.
The Seanad being the more glamorous of any topic is rarefied ground and the upper house is lapping up its moment in the sun.
But will it be a lap of honour?
Miriam O’Callaghan is here in blue and white, while Bruton and Martin both look ready to rumble. Let’s get it on.
In the blue (tied) corner: Richard Bruton urges Ireland to “do more with less”.
We will manage our affairs better with less politicians.
“The Seanad is deeply undemocratic and ineffective,” he says.
He wants a stronger role for committees and Dáil members, as well as outside groups and experts.
He says that Ireland must move into the 21st century.
In the red (tied) corner is Micheal Martin.
The Fianna Fáil leader says that the abolition of the Seanad would give the government more power than it has now.
I’m voting no because a reformed Seanad can give the better expertise that Ireland needs
The only way to force real reform is to vote No on Friday.
RB: We have an obsolete institution in the Seanad. The last time it even delayed legislation was in 1964.
All legislation will go to public hearings. That means that the public shapes the legislation from the get-go.
MM: Removing the Seanad will halve our parliament and take out the opportunity for alternative voices.
The fundamental element of democracy is debate.
Martin says that the Dáil has not lost many bills in 50 years, sparking the first real barbs of the night. Miriam is straight in to separate the two. Feisty opening.
Here’s the scene:
Micheal Martin hits back at the notion that he is arguing for a No vote to get on the TV.
I’ve never had a problem getting on programmes like this.
Once again, Bruton interrupts and Miriam is now exasperated.
“Don’t talk over each, it’s pointless,” she says. She’s right.
RB: The Dáil will now have powers to investigate in the public interest.
Bruton fires the first “financial collapse” shot across Martin’s bows.
Bruton wants to talk about when his opponent was in cabinet, but Miriam is having none of it. She wants to keep it on track.
Micheal Martin was in a government that received a number of reports on Seanad reform, so why is he now arguing for reform from the opposition benches?
“The government chose not to give the people the choice of reform.”
Would a reformed Seanad lead to a situation like the US government shutdown? Micheal Martin says no.
“It would not be comparable.
“When other countries abolished their second houses, it was accompanied by stronger regional assemblies and constitutional change.
“What is happening on Friday is unique in Western Democracy. We are being asked to vote on a change without any constitutional protection.”
Eoin Morris is in the audience, he says that abolishing the Seanad is “an attack on democracy”.
He makes the point that “just because a fire escape is never used, you don’t tear it down.”
Eugene McCormack, another audience member, says that he hopes that this argument will focus the minds of politicians on political reform.
Professor John Crown, who is a senator, says that the Taoiseach should be here.
He says that we are being told “lie after lie after lie” about the Seanad.
The Seanad has made 550 amendments to legislation this term alone. One third of legislation on our books originated in the Seanad.
Why isn’t the Taoiseach here?
Richard Bruton doesn’t think it’s relevant.
It’s not a personality contest. It’s your vote and your Seanad.
Eamon Delaney from One House is in the audience.
He says that the Seanad attendance record is reason enough to abolish it, pointing out that Fianna Fáil’s senators are some of the worst offenders.
However, Micheal Martin says that is “attack politics”.
That’s the kind of debate the Yes campaign has been at. Playing the man, not the ball.
The issue of cost is dominating now. Richard Bruton says that it will be up to the Government to deliver the savings of €20 million that has been a cornerstone of the Yes campaign.
He says that Oireachtas staff can be redeployed under the Haddington Road Agreement.
We would give a right arm for some of the people that could be redeployed.
Matt Carthy, a Sinn Féin councillor, says that the big lie f the campaign is that a No vote would lead to reform, saying that Martin cannot advocate a No vote given his history.
The Seanad has been a plaything for Fianna Fáil. As it stands, it must be abolished.
Joe O’Connor from the Union of Students in Ireland, says that experts are being removed from Oireachtas committees and, as such, the government did not have the “credit worthiness” needed on the Seanad issue.
Michael Martin is in on the attack against the notion of his party using the upper house as a “creche and retirement home”.
“Gerry Adams, as early as last July, said that this was a power grab. He called it a democratic coup d’etat.”
Matt Carthy says that if Micheal Martin wanted to debate the Sinn Féin leader, he should have accepted his offer to debate.
And we’re gone to break for the first time.
Who’s winning? Has your mind been changed? Email paulhosford@thejournal.ie, tweet @PTHosford or @TheJournal_ie
Here’s Richard Bruton’s stack of notes. He came prepared.
Barrister Anne Fitzpatrick is in the audience voting No.
She says for two reasons: “What next? And why the rush?”
“We are being asked to change our constitution when there is no proven Dáil reform in place.
We could have had this debate when we’d seen whether the Seanad was fit for purpose.
Independent Tullamore councillor Sean O’Brien does not like the Seanad, not one bit.
“I don’t care if it is €20 million, €6 million or 1 million it is too much.
It is a nursery for budding politicians and nursing home for failed politicians.
Glenna Lynch from Democracy Matters says that the “dishonest and cynical posters around are the wrapping paper around a hand grenade that is being dropped on the constitution”.
She finishes “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
Martina Devlin of One House says that reform is “an alluring concept” but simply won’t happen.
Richard Bruton says that the No campaign has “50 shades” of what they want the Seanad to be.
He says that the No campaign wants the Seanad to remain undemocratic.
This, via @gavreilly, is what Fianna Fáil had to say about the Seanad in 2011:
Micheal Martin denies that the very existence of the Seanad “shames” the country.
The two are talking over each other again and Miriam is deeply, deeply unimpressed.
Miriam asks Richard Bruton is he just looking to abolish the Seanad because it is a “nuisance”.
He says no and that the chamber is built to be controlled by the Government.
“But you also control the Dáil,” says Martin, to chuckles from the audience.
Fergal Reid says:
If that’s what you’re into, Fergal…
Bruton maintains that committees and public hearings would allow experts more access to shaping legislation.
If you are having a debate on harbours, you want an expert on harbours, not a professor of poetry.
Patricia McKenna, the former Green Party MEP, is here for Democracy Matters.
She says that there will be no protection from Europe without the Seanad.
Blair Horan of One House says that universal suffrage is not an answer for the Seanad.
Sarah Jane Hennelly is a No voter who is not affiliated to any party.
She says that the cost argument is a “red herring”.
Labour councillor Tom Kelleher says that most people have no vote in the Seanad elections, but he has six.
Showoff.
Martin says that Fine Gael have scrubbed any record of a 2009 speech that Enda Kenny gave in favour of the Seanad.
Bruton says that the abolition of the Seanad is a “compelling case”.
It is an institution that has served politicians not the public.
Martin urges people “not to shut down a platform for alternative and contrarian voices”.
With that, we’ve run out of time.
Miriam O’Callaghan urges voters to exercise their rights on Friday.
So, who scored more points?
So, what’s the general consensus?
On the debate, it seems fairly mixed, but Taoiseach Enda Kenny has come in for some criticism on Twitter for his no-show.
However, writer Colm Tobin has another theory.
Commenter Tigerisinthezoo has a somewhat unscientific method for determining a winner:
And, with that, it is time to retire the live blog.
Tomorrow, TV3′s Vincent Browne will host his own debate, though the participants are yet to be confirmed.
Then, on Friday, comes the real business, as the country goes to the polls on two referendums.
Thanks for being with us this evening, good night.
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After watching this omni-shambles, I’ve changed my mind entirely. It’s time to sell off RTE.
If thst lad thinks any money saved will go towards the nurses in tullamore hes living in cloud cuckoo land…hes the typical parish pump voter
As much as I hate ff with every ounce of my being, I hate fg even more. That bloody coward didn’t have the cajones and the bottle to stand up tonight. I hope bruton gets his a** handed to him. I hate fg for their lies, fir their love affair with europe, for consistently screwing us all up
Leslie it’s not the job of the taoiseach of our country to bow to the demands of the media and boost rte ratings. If Enda did debate it would give Michael Martin the chance to look all statesmanlike and he doesn’t deserve that.
Fair play to Enda for not being dictated to. He doesn’t have to be there and is showing good leadership by rising above a media inspired frenzy. Well done Enda.
Would you ever stop. Put cameron put obama in his position they would be out there every chance they got
Kenny showing good leadership by hiding? Pray tell what planet you are from sir?
All hail Caesar Kenny!
Et tu, Bruton ! (If only)
I’ll get me coat :/
are you for real….. Enda did not miss an apportunity to be seen by media at Croke Park for the last few weeks, both men and womens finals. Of course his louting at the mens SHF was stage managed by his people asking for his section of the stadium pexilated to avoid the terrible moment from a few weeks before when he was booed by fans. Stage management and spin is all he has. He ceertainly has no substance. As for his cringe worthy pictures of him acting the Dick behind the two women at the ladies final this weekend, it was worse than is dog being patted by Angela pic.
don’t vote when you’re angry
you will regret it
substance ?
he spoke out against the vatican about sex abuse and cover ups
something gerry adams can’t do ever again
Bruton still coming out with that 20 million lie. Unbelievable.
Fair play to Anne, the barrister, she gave it to Bruton and it’s true, what’s the rush?
Michael are you a member of FF? You are doing a great job of cheerleading.
I wonder if he has a Seanad vote.
Funny how you assume that because I agree with Micheál Martin I must be a member of FF. Bruton was there because Enda wasn’t man enough. Enda said in the Dáil that he didn’t want to attend because he would show up Micheál Martin, well the only one he showed up was himself because by failing to attend clearly showed that he would not have been capable of showing him up and the country would then see just how weak he really was.
A leader should lead!!!!! Not give orders and hide away like some coward…..
Enda wants our Constitution pulled apart yet refuses to debate the issue…
Away with him and his motley crew!!!
MB, I fully agree, I think Anne Fitzpatrick was the most convincing speaker. So much advertising for a yes vote tells me their argument is so weak it has to be pushed and pushed on the electorate.
I’m voting No because I’m not prepared to let them keep sliding more and more of our democracy off the side of the table.
I have been helped by Senators on an issue when no other politician would give me the time of day. I make this post with total sincerity and with no political allegiance.
Helped how? That’s is exactly why we should get rid, clientism has to end.
Second that
It was no clientism. It was genuine help to ordinary people. I refer to my final sentence on my previous post.
Dermot Michael is entitled to his opinion look at FG TDs they are afraid to open their mouths if they say the wrong thing they are thrown out of the party Kenny and co are dictators
Sean, of course Michael is entitled to his view. My point about the FG rebels is that ALL parties enforce the whip and the punishment is always the same, expulsion from the party. FG are no different in this regard except the numbers were bigger than usual.
Watch the body language of Bruton, it’s clear I would suggest that he is telling lies about the figures…
We don’t need Fine Gael holding all the power
Bruton reminds me of Colin Powell when he was lying about the WMD. Same cringing body language.
obama is worse than bush
bush didn’t have “racism” to hide behind
It’s such a pity FG are in power for life and we don’t have elections.
This vote is not just about abolishing the Seanad, it takes away power, please vote no
IF A YES VOTE WINS – Key POINTS
==================
1 . Laws will be made if passed by the Dáil and the president. No amendments or changes can be offered up by anyone else. *** Do you want the current Government to have this power?
2. By voting to abolish the Séanad, you also could take away the President’s power to refer Money Bills(laws relating to public finances, ie. matters relating to TAXATION) to the supreme court for a decision on whether or not they are consitutional. **More Power to Government**
3. The constitution currently provides the option for the president to refer bills to the people. If a yes vote is gained, THIS OPTION WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE CONSTITUTION.
** More power for Government**
4. Currently, Ireland may adopt and implement certain EU laws and decisions and certain amendments to EU treaties ONLY if this is approved in advance by BOTH the Dáil and the Seanad.
IF A YES VOTE IS GAINED – ONLY THE APPROVAL OF THE DÁIL WILL BE REQUIRED FOR PASSING EU LAWS AND DECISIONS. **More power to Government and EU** ?
5. Currently Oireachtas has the power to pass laws for the purpose of securing
public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or armed
rebellion. These laws may not be challenged in the Courts on the basis
that they are unconstitutional.
IF A YES VOTE IS PASSED – The Dáil alone will have the power to pass national emergency laws
and to decide a national emergency exists **YES more power the Government.
6. Currently, Judges of the Supreme Court and the High Court may be removed from office
for stated misbehaviour or incapacity only if a simple majority of the members
present and voting in each of the Dáil and Seanad pass resolutions to that effect.
IF A YES VOTE IS PASSED – The Dáil alone decides the above.
Can someone who is going to vote yes please tell me if I’m wrong on any of the above?
It’s is like this already because the government has an automatic majority in the senate due to the Taoiseach’s appointments. We are never going to get reform so it is best to get rid. Do you have a senate vote?
Apologies Luke, but its currently a 50/50 split. The government does not have an automatic majority.
What are you on about? Check your facts please. Of the 60 seats there is 19 from FG, 11 from labour and 13 independents of which 6 are nominated by the Taoiseach. That’s sounds like a majority to me.
Also, I take it you have a Senate vote.
Martin just praised those in the Seanad for bringing the issue of contraception to the fore, yet time after time after time , FF voted against the introduction of contraception. It only was made legal thanks to Coalition govts. Having the balls to push it through. FF voted against present contraception legislation.
Well said. And FF also campaigned against divorce in 1986.
And although FF decriminalised homosexuality, they only did so when forced to by the European Courts.
Yup. The point was that these views got an opportunity to be aired in the Seanad and not the mainstream Dail. FF at the time was representative of the views of the people at the time. No need for historical revisionism.
Most ppl wouldn’t have noticed that.
that’s like saying
ohh kennedy so much for black people
as if they wouldn’t be allowed vote today
if it wasn’t for that two faced cu**
The point is sean, FF opposed every bit of legislation brought in when they were the opposition, no matter what the merits of that legislation. They opposed the original Anglo irish agreement agreed with Fitzgerald/Thatcher, they opposed the introduction of freely available contraception even when that legislation had public support.
Funny he won’t debate,feeling guilty I hope..must be terrible been the most hated man in Ireland :)
Aren’t you a lovely person
I’m honest
You’re an idiot.
@endas an ar@e. I suppose its always handy to blame someone else for your problems.
Power grab by FG. Vote no. Protect OUR democracy.
Power grab by Sinn Fein. Vote No, protect democracy.
Your a looser
Blame for what?usual fg bull make something up,your a fool
The biggest loser tonight was Enda Kenny he has been found out.
we blamed the brits
then we blamed FF
then we blamed cowen
now we blame enda
and next year we will blame.. ? ? ?
The Germans?
It’s “you’re” aswell. Learn to spell.
Enda must be wetting himself laughing at Richard Brutons performance. A lamb to the slaughter.
Martin should rile Bruton more about Kenny’s absence. It’ll fluster him eventually.
Enda is the exact same as cowen
he gets paid whether we like it or not
some people like him
some hate him
he …does …not …care
I never thought I’d say it but ‘I couldn’t agree more with you Mehole Martin’
Its a big NO vote from me after that.
Great stuff!
Micheál Martin has checked the figures and is showing up Fine Gael, it’s clear why Enda Kenny was afraid to show up because he would choke on the lies
Gerry Adams didn’t show up for some mysterious reason
oh yeahhhh RTE never invited him
maybe he was ashamed of himself tonight
perhaps he felt like he was in no position to pontificate about right and wrong tonight
for some mysterious reason
Amadán
Why cant we not reform the Seanad AND the Dáil ?? they are on about the Seanad being elitist and undemocratic? They are saying the people don’t vote people into the Seanad, why cant we reform and give all the people a vote and not just abolish it?
Because if we make it democratic and give everyone a vote we politicise it, get more politicians and if we do that we just have a second dail anyway which either backs the government and its status quo, or they back the opposition and then we’re in U.S territory of stalemate and lame duck government.
Having less discussion really worked in 2008, we need politicians to be accountable on issues as they evolve not just every five years when they pay us lip service with a manifesto they intend to ignore. Had we had discussion on the banking fiasco who knows where we might be today but I do know that saving 4 million a year or even 20 if you believe Bruton will do little or nothing for this economy, having a second house which is also accountable and may make some politicians feel uneasy at the questions it asks just might, if the issues of 2008 had been discussed in such a situation and had resulted in stalemate would we be in a worse position today
elitist ?
telling a woman she is talking through her fanny
writing letters seeking clemency for a peado
if that is the ‘elite’ i would rather be common anyday
That’s because she was and continues to talk through it, what a stupid woman
‘writing letters seeking clemency for a peado’
if enda kenny or any other hetereo person in the seanad or dail did that ? ? ?
And now Brutals saying everything should be referred to public hearings! Jesus wept – where’s the saving there Dick? Who will be appointed to the committees needed for that to take place. Oh yeah I forgot – your pals. Unqualified numptys who’ll blindly do your bidding. What a shameless chancer you are.
Listen to the warnings about unelected “experts” involved in legislating… Frightening!
Paul, better than elected place-men with little, or no, real world experience just pushing the party line, wouldn’t you say ?
I would completely disagree Joseph,
When a Taoiseach invites his best buds to sit in Cabinet and “chip in” I’d say whatever happens in parliament would be irrelevant. Remember, we are supposed to elect our representation.
“I’ll let you in.”
WHY is Miriam O’Callaghan on the stage? Why is she standing between them?
Because she is standing between two little boys that are trying to insult the Irish people!! Simple !
can we abolish miriam o’callaghan? think of the savings, financial and otherwise
In fairness… Bruton came across as more credible.
And I am glad that Kenny was not confronted with Martin.
Kenny has his qualities bu het has not got the skills in confrontation.
Great debate.
Personally I’d disagree, I thought Bruton seemed smug and arrogant which overshadowed his credibility, very much “above the people”. For all his failings, Martin seems to connect with people more…
the irish people deserve to be insulted
we used to be drunks
now we’re drunks looking for a handout
speak for ur self
your *
Well that looked a clear win for the NOs. Quite simply put by that barrister lady anne Fitz……? What’s the rush?
Enda, Enda, Enda! Have you learnt nothing from the Cowen era?
I’m not a FG lover. But Christ give up about Kenny. I think it’d refreshing to see others be in these debates. Kenny is obviously a manager of people.
if u were the barca manager would you want to take penalties in a football match when uve asked Messi to practice them all season.
Politics has changed and those banging on about Kenny are judging politics on personality and not substance and we know where that took us before
Good point Tiger however if he is serious about reform he should be in front of the people to sell the idea. He makes himself seen at the announcement of the new jobs being created in the “years to come” or maybe he is genuinely not comfortable with the lies.
Yea he still has no backbone
No, Tiger, I think it’s important to call Kenny on his failure to show up and stand up for what he claims is important. It’s not about personality; it’s about the fact that he is the leader of the country, and doesn’t have the cojones to stand over his proposal. That makes one ask a lot of questions.
Why should he – there are other people much better in the party to do that. Just don’t think all this Kenny thing is progressive. Look at the bigger picture rather then a debate on tv.
And Kenny has been out – same as Adams and the rest. It’s just petty in my opinion
But this is not about a one off TV debate. He has spoken to numerous media outlets. This demand to see him on TV is petty and narrow minded. I don’t like FG but I’d rather the debate be about substance rather then personalities.
Guys this is a game of chess. FF did it before and FG are doing it now. Suck it up FF.
The TV debate is where most people engage with this debate, Tiger. We hear bits and pieces on the media, but the tv debate has become a major forum for debate in recent years. And for the leader of the government which has introduced this proposal to refuse to debate it is very bad. And to send in his own version of Colin Powell further weakens his case.
I repeat, it’s NOT about personalities. It’s about roles. Kenny’s role is leader of the country, his role is to stand over his proposal.
If it’s not about personalities why so fixed up with the Leader. In present day business u take ur lead from the qualified spokesperson. Would it have been better if Kenny came into studio and said he stands over this proposal and will ask my key spokesperson on this issue to speak to you on it
This happens in every company throughout the world. This all boils down to personalities. It should be about substance and by saying u need to see ur leader stand over this only confirms that opinion. U should be ur own person and ur choice should be based more the a face on a TV Debate
Afraid Enda doesn’t have the gravitas, the competence or the leadership qualities to lead a Boy Scouts Patrol and he is surrounded by equals and that’s being nice. Minister Bruton waffled about dysfunctional regulatory authorities; a bit rich from a man that has been largely responsible for regulatory failure [Competition Authority] and to lessor extent Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. Minister Bruton presides over the theft of more than €2,400 per year from each household in the State through criminal cartel behaviour. Forget about FF, we have dealt with them for the minute, its these new kids on the block we have to worry about – chancers.
Being a leader is a ROLE. Not a personality. With the role of leader comes responsibility, and the duty of showing leadership. He IS the qualified spokesman, not some dogsbody he sent who clearly was uncomfortable with what he was saying.
No substance with Kenny, that’s the problem. It’s just yes Ms. Merkel, how high should I jump and then please Ms. Merkel, can you get Time magazine to portray me as a magnificent Statesman.
Whats this role? He is entitied to change the preconceived role of taoiseach. God it needs freshness.
Id prefer this style. And as a SF supporter I’d prefer Doherty speaking on finance and Mary Lou on affairs rather then Adams. Just being honest.
The role, Tiger, is one of LEADER. The leader is the one who shows leadership, and who stands over what he believes, not sends a subordinate out to do his dirty work.
Richard Bruton is no more an expert on this issue than anyone else, and was clearly floundering.
You’re a SF supporter? Hmm. A bit rich, a SF supporter talking about democratic poltics.
But he has stated he stands over it. Why u want to see him on TV. It’s black & white.
Tiger, I want to hear his arguments as to WHY he stands over it, and I want to hear him defend himself in a debate. Surely that’s not too much to ask?
I know your style of politics is the obey the great leader and accept what he says, but that’s not the way democracy works. In democratic parties and systems, leaders have to account for their actions and opinions.
Grainne you can’t get all u want. That is being spoilt. He has made numerous statements on this matter to the media and is out and about daily meeting people.
Ur desire to see a TV debate cement ur views is sad and clearly not aligned to my views where opinion is formulated over a period of time and brings in all manners of communications. It’s quite outdated when u look at international politics and recent trends in Germany, USA & Australia.
To take the football analogy, the manager has to field questions about his tactics. Kenny, as manager, is not fielding questions about his tactics. He has also singularly failed to explain to me why I should vote in favour of his proposal to abolish the Seanad.
Especially when he admitted in the Dail a few weeks ago that HE decided that the Seanad be abolished, not his party, but HE. This was confirmed by Leo the Lion on the Vincent Browne show when he said that the party was told ‘albeit after the event’ that this was the policy. then Enda expects the party to sell HIS decision. surely HIS decision should have been defended by HIMSELF. He is no leader.
the irish like blaming people
they were looking forward to attacking Enda but he never gave them the chance
Sorry, I had to leave the debate early to get some sleep as I have an early start thanks to the construction industry not sticking to payment terms. There is legislation that Fergal Quinn is trying to get through the Dail but after many many years and the fall of many many companies it is still not brought into law fully. Is that a plus or a minus for the Seanad.
After sleeping on the debate I’m sliding towards a no vote I think now.
It has nothing to do with backbone…he is not capable of debating and has no confidence in his ability to debate…
@Keith – a manager only talks game strategy after match is played
Tiger blueshirt
Did Martin just call Miriam, Mary?
In fairness she called him Minister twice lol
My god Fine Gael disgust me almost as much as anybody who voted for them.
Also, anybody who quotes best practice and expert advice is just creating excuses in advance of failure. This debate is two top parties bitching more than it is a debate about the seanad.
Well luckily they wouldn’t care what you think.
You wouldn’t have felt the need to respond if that was true.
Just thought I’d point it out.
Richard Brutal looks shaken – he’s lying again. Angry little cretin that he is. He’s deluded & frankly dangerous.
John Crown just made some great points there..
He’s a decent skin, no bull with him
Shame he doesn’t focus on his Seanad job and show up for votes.
Why is it that the ones shouting for a yes vote are taking cheap shots at those voting NO, maybe it’s because they can’t admit that the truth is coming out
Well Michael do you have a senate vote? That’s a fair question
No I don’t. You don’t need a senate vote to see that Bruton was taking cheap shots.
Definitely No side won that debate…Well done…Total Lies from the Government….and then they want Total Power as well. VOTE NO on Friday!
At the end of the day Enda Kenny is not taking part what does that say about our democracy ?
Nothing
Briton keeps going back to how the last government acted and all that, this is about the future not the past. We can’t change what’s already happened.
Fair play to Micheál Martin for bringing up the fact that when the Fine Gael TDs voted against the government they were flung out.
That’s called the party whip system: it’s also operated by Fianna Fáil, There were several independent Fianna Fáil tD’s in HHS last Dail.
In the last Dail even
“That’s called the party whip system”.
Correct. And while that system is still in place there needs to be a reformed second house with the power to keep check of the person holding the whip i.e. enda the europhile.
Miriam O’Callaghan should not be chairing this debate she is Fianna Fail born and breed
And showing it.
In fairness no difference between FF & FG different cheeks of the same arse.
Miriam is a lightweight interviewer. Best suited to light entertainment, and even then all her questions are scripted and she sticks to the script.
I agree totally with you on Miriam. I used to be a fan but I’ve realised lately how lightweight she is and as for sticking to the script- yesterday morning she stated that Paul Brady was born in Strabane county Down! She was obviously reading it from a script and for an intelligent woman she didn’t even notice the mistake. She has deteriorated in her serious questioning since she became more involved in light entertainment. She’s falling between the two now.
Almost all political interviewers have preprepared questions at hand, but they can deviate in an ad lib manner and head down a different route if the debate.or conversation is flowing. She can’t do that, and she never could.
and if she was angry
angry enough to be patriotic
and vote SF a party that shook hands with garda killers
that would be OK yeah ?
Just watched Primetime…. I now convinced more than ever to vote NO….. Why??? Cause I think FG/LABOUR are railroading the people into making a decision which will remove vital section of our constitution based on financial savings…. I really hope that the people of this country are not gullible and can see this for what it really is….. A GRAB FOR MORE POWER…. It’s sickening that Kenny hasn’t the balls he was born with to debate this issue…. Does he expect the electorate to not question this
Which of these two liars am I going to believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The liar that isn’t from FF
would you rather listen to the leader of SF
who was ‘never a member’ of the IRA and whose brother abused his own daughter
I don’t know about Michael Collins being a langer, but Micheal Martin definitely is. He and his party had years in power to change the Seanad, they didn’t. Then there’s the fact that he was complicit in all the FF policies that ruined this country.
Mistakes were made but people have learnt from them, the electorate also played a very large part in blowing the boom.
Well, at least, Dermot, he admits that they should have.
As someone said on the show: a deathbed conversion.
michael collins is the exact same as bobby sands
he died for nothing
he died so people would get sick and tired and leave the country
Sinn Fein want to abolish the Seanad – incredible really given their long history of putting guns literally to people’s heads to get a vote. Their a joke. FG are a joke as are Labour & FF but the jokes on all of us. Vote No – vote for reform & vote for an alternative to all the lousy lowlifes that pass themselves off as our leaders when the time comes.
We aren’t being offered an alternative.
Once a No vote id given then we canstart to explore the options for reform and after they are teased out have them approved by the people.
17 years it took Gerry Adams to say sorry to jerry mccabes family,, and he only said that because donoghue was murdered. in my heart and soul i know if that guard wasn’t murdered the mccabe family would still be waiting
Bruton looks like Gollum. We likes it. No we wants to keep it. No we must kill it. Precious…
Miriam is just terrible. Truly terrible.
We can all agree on that. Not able to chair a debate.
please don’t forget
she was the only TV presenter that stood up to martin mcguinness during the presidential debates
nobody else,, not even vincent browne did that
and he threatened her as a result
Enda is a coward what is the rush to do this I smell some FG sneaky shi* in the background.
Taking people’s attention away from the budget
Agreed Citizen, it is absolutely a grab for power. The governments contention that there will be a saving of 20 million and the accusation of the Seanad being elitist and totally ineffective is a complete smoke screen of what they are really trying to do. Like you I hope, in fact I know, the Irish voters are smart enough to see thru this. We are, in effect, being asked to vote blind, to remove sections of our Constitution based on, as one speaker said on Primetime, an IOU that we can cash in down the line. To be honest, I don’t think either Richard Bruton or Micheal Martin put forward any compelling arguments on either side but I was much more convinced by the NO campaigners in the audience.
Can we really allow ourselves to trust and allow our government to sway us into making a decision when out Taoiseach, our so called leader, is too much of a coward to go on TV to debate the issue. Is he afraid that the the overhead camera will show up Angela Merkel’s thumb prints on the top of his head ???
Celtic just beaten ,Not happy :(
Hardly a surprise
Bruton beaten. Quite pleased.
My vote has changed to NO.
This government is looking for more power and while the Seanad is currently broken, it should be reformed, not removed.
Anyone else think this referendum is taking the heat away from the budget in a few weeks!!
Gar, you say it should be reformed, how so? Reform is an easy line to throw out, be more specific!?!
Absolutely spot on Gar. They must think we are all gob shites if they think we can’t see this.
Was hoping for an empty FG chair, a la Clint Eastwood.
oh yeah clint was wrong
and obama is loved by everybody in america
and that’s why the government has shut down obviously : )
The people of Ireland need to put political affiliations, the past and local politics aside and realise what this means to our rights as citizens.. If we abolish the one safe guard we have, although it might not be used often enough, we leave ourselves in a situation where the people we elect are in a position to do, say and act as they please, in our name without an active way of deterring it (the president doesn’t have enough power or the judiciary) I will be voting no simply because these people are supposed to represent me.. With the two houses their doing a piss poor job, with only one house it can’t get any better.. We rightly distrust our political system so why give them the tools to be more untrustworthy. Regardless of Enda, Martin, Eamon, Gerry or whoever… This is a bad choice for democracy as a whole… Rant over
Sometimes a rant isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It can be very frustrating when you are trying to get through to people who just don’t get it. Unfortunately the big problem is getting folk to.listen. If the Seanad is abolished I believe we will all regret it in a very short time.
Jeeze, the thought of Enda and his cronies having free reign!
Martin to win in third round
This better be good missing first episode of homeland.
You didn’t miss much, very messy. Saw the end of this just as messy
It’s on channel 4 on Sunday night
BTW…real democracy is ensured by going out to vote on Friday……!!
Hope the turnout is decent…though after the dreadful turnout for the children’s referendum ( following all the abuse of children over the years in this country!!)….I doubt it!
Richard Bruton outnumbered two to one Miriam O’Callaghan should leave the stage
Liam Adams exposed as long as nobody mentioned his brothers activities
when gerry adams was interviewed by miriam
he acted like the waiter in fawlty towers — “i knowww nnootthhiinnggggg ”
Gerry Adams should leave the dail
if he has any, even a little respect for the victims
Well were you more impressed by the NO or YES side?
Red thumbs for NO, Green for YES.
Richard Bruton was terrible.
That young Martin fella has some fresh ideas, pity he wasn’t around a few years ago might’ve made some reforms and saved us from the crisis…… oh wait…
Ff are full of fresh ideas when sucking on an empty teat……
:-D
Nice one “My Views”….
Re the terror about loosing our “democracy”….
The government is formed by the majority vote…that’s democracy.
In Ireland that government have the majority in the Dail and the Senad…so what passes the Dail…passes the Senad….!
Senad will always be a stamping house as all…such as it has ever been!!
LOL…I thought at one stage Michael Martin was suggesting government by consensus!!…CJ would be turning in his plot at that one!!
WE decide on the fate of our governemnt every 5(ish) years….THATS democracy!
Get rid of the Senad….it achieves nothing!
but think about all the inspiring people that came out of the seanad
mary robinson
and david norris
there that’s 2 people
Anytime I look at Michael Martin I think “Rats From The Flats”
Anytime i look at Sinn Fein I think “Human Sewage”
What rock do you live under
the same rock SF were hiding under when the queen visited
Jesus , my children could hold a better argument ,
Mine do …
Does anyone know is there a debate re the court of criminal appeal. It hasn’t been discussed. Very hard to vote with so little debate about it.
You are correct Tiger. My understanding of it, if it is passed, is that it is just going to be another gravy train for our greedy solicitors, barristers and judges to ride on. I can almost hear the sound of them rubbing their hands in glee in anticipation of the extra dosh that’s likely to be available. Perhaps this is an over simplification of it but if somebody can put forward a credible argument for it then I am prepared to listen.
If the Court of Appeal referendum is passed it will fast track repossessions for the banks. The delay in appeals being heard in the Supreme Court is a the only hope a lot of families have of spending more time in their own homes!
VOTE NO and NO
My barrister girlfriend tells me there is no such consensus among her colleagues, nor such sinister hand-wringing at the prospect of it passing. She believes it is totally unnecessary. The supreme court IS the court of appeals. There is a huge delay in hearing cases, yes, but more sittings and qualified judges are needed, not a whole new court.
Pretty poor debate. Not sure either of them are going to change any minds…
I’d give miriam a lash
A teach her a lesson one.
Paul
Can I ask you..do you guys work from home or do you do this stuff in the office?
Cheers
Hi Tigers,
I am safely ensconced in the office: https://twitter.com/PTHosford/status/385130127652564993
Paul
Appreciate the reply. Just was thinking that with all things modern some of these things would be done remotely.
Oh you’re one of those foodie snobs Paul, bet you washed it all down with a bottle of Luco, posh
It was a can of Coke.
I don’t forget my roots.
As long as it wasn’t a line of Coke.
Richard Bruton is an excellent debater.
A master debater?
we simply have an obsolete institution in the seanad
it’s elected by just 1% of the population
the vast majority of people have no say
its powers are extremely limited
it was never the watchdog that people sometimes expect
the truth is
the last time it even delayed the legislation was in 1964
a watchdog that only barks once in every 50 years
is not a very effective watchdog
VOTE NO
Martin the alter boy of politics, NOT, what a bluffer, lacks credibility, the guy has some neck but i guess that was never in short in ff circles
were my ears working when brutal said a government stands on its pledges?
not this one!
THE IMPORTANCE OF VOTING ON OCTOBER 4TH
Next Friday we must ALL get out and vote NO and NO. The proposed new ‘Court of Appeal’ could also be called the ‘Mortgage Court’. At present the delay in hearing appeals to the Supreme Court means that hard up families can stay in their homes a little longer. The new ‘Court of Appeal’ will simply fast-track repossessions on behalf of the bailed out banks!
As far as the ‘Seanad’ referendum is concerned this is a total power grab by our corrupt regime. With FG and SF now in the courtship stage of their blossoming relationship, he and his newly intended coalition partners Sinn Fein will replace the Seanad with their chosen few who will sit on Dail and Oireachtas committees, aided by their sub-committees and advisors which will probably cost a lot more than any saving made by the abolition of the Seanad! This would be the ultimate ‘jobs for the boys’ scam ever pulled and it would probably give them a better sense of achievement than robbing let’s say £26.5m from a bank! If FG and their newly betrothed succeed in their mission they’ll deserve great credit for successfully pulling the wool over the Irish electorates’ eyes again! And boy will our Enda get a few more pats on the head from Angela!
We cannot and must not let this corrupt regime remove the watchdog that is the Seanad. They are simply diluting our democracy where the Irish people will be completely removed from any decision making with the regime being accountable to nobody but themselves. A man from Angela’s part of the world called ‘Hitler’ did something similar in Germany in 1934 when as Chancellor he abolished the Presidency and seized complete control….What Chancellor Kenny is doing now might be far removed from the days of Hitler, but if you look closely enough you might even see some similarities! Look even closer and you might even see similarities between Enda’s regime and the ‘Vichy’ government in France who collaborated with their German masters keeping them happy by inflicting pain, suffering and death on their own people. As they say ‘POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY’!
Enda and the regime have made their move. It’s our move next Friday!
Ken, The government is asking us, the citizens of Ireland if we would like to keep or scrap the Seanad, as everyone accepts how useless it currently is!
How can you compare him to Hitler as a result of giving that option???
The government are advocating a YES vote to abolishing the Seanad, the’re not asking if we would like to retain it or not! At best this a diversionary stunt, but like a lot of people I’m convinced that it’s nothing short of a power grab. As they say, ‘If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it a duck’. Same applies with this!
So how are we saving €20m if we are redeploying the senad staff under the Haddington road agreement? Sounds like more lies to me
This is far more entertaining than anything I have watched tonight
The more I think about it the more uneasy I become.I am voting No.More power to an already over – centralised government is not good for Democracy and not good for me, the citizen.
Its gone to an ad, who is winning?
Miriam.
For me I don’t think there was any real winner from the debate. There was no moment or big truth revealed that could have swung it.
If the question is whether or not to change your system of government, and theres no real winners from the debate of that vital question, surely the prudent thing to do is leave well enough alone until there is a convincing argument?
What was clear from last nights debate was how little there is between FF & FG ideology.
Also the fact that Sinn Fein were not invited when they have lead the Yes Campaign on the street shows the Political bias of our State Broadcaster!
Is Kenny like DeVelera
oh you mean he does all the talking and lets some langer do all the dirty work (and get killed)
We need a system that allows the public to vote on each issue as it arises on a weekly basis.Real democracy.They tried it once with the e voting system for elections,but I’m sure a similar system could be built now for a fraction of the cost,and very functional too.Then the elected politicians could come up with the future proposed legislation,and the people of Ireland could all vote on the proposals regularly.Maybe,you would not need politicians at all then,and you could let the top civil servants come up with the proposals for the people to vote on.Ah,that would be too honest,sure it would never work in Ireland I suppose!
That wasn’t ‘the writer Colm Toibin’ but someone called ‘Colm Tobin’ tweeting that last comment!
Hi I was in the audience of prime time tonight and really wanted to speak but I didn’t get a chance to speak. Any opinions or recommendations? I am undecided and not attached to any political party.
Siobhan,
If the yes side haven’t convinced you to make such drastic changes to the constitution, why would you vote yes?
They want the Seanad abolished, but they cannot give a convincing reason why.
If you are in any doubt, vote no. Let them come up with valid convincing reasons to vote yes.
If it’s undemocratic, let them make it more democratic. Don’t let them throw the baby out with the bath water.
is it fun ?
browne *
after watching the vincent browe seanad debate,, i think we should keep the senate
have your say