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British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly

Government indicates Seanad will be reformed if abolition is rejected

The government has said that those who want the Seanad reformed “have the opportunity to vote no” in the October referendum.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS indicated that the Seanad will be reformed in the event that the referendum to abolish it is rejected by the electorate in October.

Asked if the current government would reform the Seanad in the event of a No vote in October, a government spokesperson told TheJournal.ie: “Clearly, people who decide they would rather see the Seanad reformed than abolished have the opportunity to vote no.”

The debate on the future of the upper house kicked off this week after the Taoiseach Enda Kenny confirmed the government’s intention to hold a referendum on whether or not to abolish the Seanad later this year.

The proposed 32nd amendment to the Constitution will be supplemented with planned changes to Dáil procedures including more sitting days and more committee scrutiny of legislation.

Those advocating retention of the Seanad argue that it is in need of reform rather than abolition with two senators, Feargal Quinn and Katherine Zappone, having already launched a Bill which would significantly alter the make-up and functions of the upper house.

Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland on Thursday Agriculture Minister Simon Coveney gave a strong indication that reform of the Seanad would happen in the event of a no vote in the referendum.

“If the people in their wisdom decide that they want a reformed Seanad and they want to retain it well then of course it’s their right to make that decision,” Coveney said.

‘Commit to reform’

On foot of this TheJournal.ie asked the government if this means that if the referendum is rejected by the Irish people then the Seanad will be reformed by the current government.

In response, a spokesperson said: “As the Taoiseach stated yesterday the Government is of the view that Ireland simply has too many politicians for its size and the Seanad is no longer relevant or needed.

The Government is putting a referendum to the people, as committed to in the Programme for Government. The Government has made clear that the referendum will be a yes or no question on the abolition of the Seanad. Clearly, people who decide they would rather see the Seanad reformed than abolished have the opportunity to vote no.

Democracy Matters, a group campaigning for a No vote in the referendum, has now called on the government to commit to reform of the Seanad if the referendum is rejected.

Barrister and former Fianna Fáil election candidate, Noel Whelan, said: ”We [Democracy Matters] would of course encourage those in favour of reform of the Seanad to vote no to the referendum and thereby in favour of retaining it.

“We call on government to commit to reforming the Seanad along the lines of the Quinn/Zappone bill when the referendum is defeated.”

The Quinn/Zappone Bill would put in place elections to the Seanad on a one person-one vote basis, gender equality among members and a number of additional functions and powers including the ability to scrutinise ministerial appointments and statutory instruments.

Speaking about the Bill, Coveney said on Morning Ireland last Thursday: “If we were going to reform the Seanad I think that Katherine’s [Zappone] Bill is a pretty good place to start if that was the choice that we were going to make.”

Read: Enda tells government parties: You must support Seanad abolition

Explainer: What else will change if we scrap the Seanad?

McDowell: There are no muppets in the Seanad, but there are clowns in the Dáil

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36 Comments
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    Mute AggressiveSecularist
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    Jun 8th 2013, 8:03 AM

    Reform the seanad. Make it more democratic. Get rid of government appointed wasters and university appointed elitists. But to abolish it would give more power to the muppets in the dail. We certainly don’t need that.

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    Mute Adam Power
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    Jun 8th 2013, 8:14 AM

    I’d only support a reformed Seanad if it’s democratically elected

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    Mute little willy
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:50 AM

    Adam – if it is “democratically elected”, it’ll only be a copy of the Dail

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    Mute little willy
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:51 AM

    Aggressive secularist – the whole idea of the Senate was to bring in experts

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    Mute Adam Power
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:05 AM

    Not if you stage the elections a few years apart, I want the thing scrapped but if the No vote wins then I’d prefer us citizens picking its members & not the Government and other institutions.

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    Mute gerbreen
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:46 AM

    So much reform is required that perhaps it should be designed from scratch. A reformed Seanad would need to remove party politics from it completely (civil war politics still alive and well), a member of previous 3 Dail administration should not be allowed into the Seanad and likewise a member of the Seanad cannot run in the next GE.

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    Mute howya
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    Jun 8th 2013, 7:46 AM

    Sounds like the government have already accepted that the No vote will win and are lining up plan B.

    Makes you wonder why they even bother with the referendum – maybe a distraction from the real job of running the country.

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    Mute little willy
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:52 AM

    Not going by the latest poll

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    Mute pipkelly98
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    Jun 8th 2013, 7:51 AM

    I would rather the government go than the Seanad a referendum is a waste of money when Kenny will do what he wants anyway.

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    Mute Robin Pickering
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:21 AM

    The problem with the Seanad as it stands is that it’s undemocratic. Most people don’t get to vote and the Taoiseach appoints whomever he wants, etc. The concern I’d have with making it democratically elected would be that it just becomes a carbon copy of the Dail, which would be pointless.

    Here’s an idea, give various bodies the opportunity to appoint their own Senator. For example, the Taoiseach and leader of the largest opposition party get a nomination each. The medical council get one. The law society get one. The trades unions get one. There’re enough of these organisations to ensure that the Seanad would be filled with experts in their fields. A group of intelligent people, mostly unencumbered by political affiliations making common-sense decisions on behalf of the people. The organisations themselves can decide how their nominees are selected or removed and how often. The Seanad need never be dissolved. Let the Seanad then appoint Senators to Oireachtas committees. Remove any power the Dail might have over the Seanad. Make the people responsible for it.

    I love it when a plan comes together.

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    Mute Niall H
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:33 AM

    So now the Taoiseach appoints all senators? Maybe do some research before you post next time? It’s not hard to find

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    Mute Robin Pickering
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:45 AM

    Read my post again Niall.

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    Mute Fuh Qiu
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    Jun 8th 2013, 12:16 PM

    I don’t like organisations getting votes. The medical council, the unions etc are not citizens so they shouldn’t get a vote. However, having a representative of the country’s doctors voted for by doctors would achieve the same kind of expertise and representation. Coming up to election time there should be a list of constituencies, voters indicate the one that best describes them and that’s the one they’ll be voting for. All the doctors indicate that they’re doctors and then vote for the doctors’ senator, likewise the farmers, construction workers, retail etc.

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    Mute Robin Pickering
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    Jun 8th 2013, 12:23 PM

    Good point Fuh, but then anyone could join any constituency. Union members are citizens, just like doctors. Let them vote through their unions. The point would be to have a proscribed list of organisations, the members of which decide their nomination. What we want is a way of preventing political parties gaining nominations.

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    Mute Fuh Qiu
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    Jun 8th 2013, 12:50 PM

    True, but it could include some verificaron eg voting for the medical senator, you have to be a member of the medical council to be a doctor, bring that id, or register in some other way. Safe pass could probably work as builder id. It could get complicated when you get to retail and other sections that are less regulated but everyone would still get only one vote, and within reason most would want their vote to reflect their interests.
    I just don’t like the bearded ones getting input into the democratic process, especially when not everyone is in a union, and we’d all turn off once they stated talking.

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    Mute Yvonne O Brien
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    Jun 8th 2013, 2:17 PM

    I think this is a great idea but it worries me that there are people like you and I who believe in these things and have great ideas like yours but we don’t know how to get heard. There a kids sitting their exams now who have ideas and things that could at least put us on the right track but we don’t get to have a say.

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    Mute Niall H
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:44 AM

    This is like a comedy sketch. So the people want to decide but when a referendum is called it’s suddenly a waste of money. We want a democratically voted senate but then its a carbon copy of the dail and we dont want that. We want to get rid of it because its costing so much and doing so little but then we are handing more power to the dail and we don’t want that do we. And comment of the day…..even if we vote to abolish it, Kenny will do what he wants anyway. Comical! I for one am delighted to afforded the opportunity to vote in what could be one of our countries biggest constitutional changes to date.

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    Mute little willy
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:48 AM

    I have lost count of the number of governments who say they will “reform the senate”

    A properly reformed senate would be a thorn in the side of the government. QED, they will never reform it

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    Mute richard ferris
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    Jun 8th 2013, 8:02 AM

    Put your house in a No vote..

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    Mute Shane A Murray
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    Jun 8th 2013, 8:27 AM

    You have given me a good laugh this morning Richard.

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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:51 AM

    How about changing the referendum to yes, no, reform? That way the voters could indicate what they want.

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    Mute little willy
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:53 AM

    You cant have 3 choices in a referendum. You can only have YES or NO.

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    Mute Robin Pickering
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:03 AM

    You could have 3 choices if you wanted to. It’s not that hard.

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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:09 AM

    Why not? it’s not rocket science for feck sake!!

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    Mute little willy
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:14 AM

    But what if you end up with each choice getting a third of the vote?

    A third aint a majority of the people

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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:34 AM

    What happens if the vote is 50% yes and 50% no? A little bit of thinking out side of the box.

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    Mute Rob Murray
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    Jun 8th 2013, 10:38 AM

    If it’s a multi-option vote then it’s called a preferendum rather than a referendum, and I think that the constitution cannot be changed using this type of vote.
    There’s nothing stopping them from having two ballot papers though if they want. One with the reform choice / choices, one with the disband referendum.

    Of course Kenny could just pass Sen. Crown’s bill through the dail, making reforms and cut the future wage bill by half in one quick step. Senator Crown donates his Seanad pay to a cancer research fund anyways.

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    Mute Ignoreland
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    Jun 8th 2013, 4:40 PM

    A multi-choice won’t work unless you insist that a successful option gets at least >50% of the vote.
    If you have a first past the post option then you could have say 45% voting to abolish it, 40% to keep it the way it is and 15% for reform. In that scenario, the abolish group would win, even though 55% of people didn’t vote for abolition.

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    Mute brian magee
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    Jun 8th 2013, 9:21 AM

    I say get rid of it.

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    Mute Irish Mule
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    Jun 8th 2013, 11:15 AM

    We don’t have lords and ladies in this country so why still have a second house like the uk. If people still want to pay their tax money for a talking shop/gentle men’s club for failed politicians like bacik and co then fire away but i think it’s obscene to spend 20 million on this rubbish. Just some perspective the running cost of this garbage would get the tax payer at least 1000 Garda patrol cars fully kitted out and they would last at least five years a piece. Now I know I’d rather have gardai with a faster response time if i rang them than fund an elitist talking shop.

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    Mute Adam Hurley
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    Jun 8th 2013, 12:21 PM

    I want to see a reformed Seanad but I’m annoyed at the Democracy Matters people. A lot of them aren’t the people that I want to represent my views.

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    Mute Alan Hall
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    Jun 8th 2013, 12:06 PM

    Why don’t we take the 8.5 million euro (a year) we Pay to have these guys sit around chatting and maybe just maybe put it back into the public domain where the money might be put to good use like more nurses, more guards, more paramedics? Or maybe do something for the homeless like provide more sheltered accommodation or even a big street party on a national level to thank everyone for helping bale the country out of a mess that most of us didn’t create but still paying for?

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    Mute Michael Scanlon
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    Jun 11th 2013, 8:33 PM

    This is the only sincable answer I have seen appoint somebody like an ombudsman free up the money for the Guards and the emergency services

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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Jun 8th 2013, 3:20 PM

    Would prefer to see the senate kept and the Dail cut from 166 TD’s to 100. Also remove the special advisor’s as well. That would mean real savings.

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    Mute steve white
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    Jun 8th 2013, 4:02 PM

    details then …

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    Mute Aindriú de Domhain
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    Jun 8th 2013, 2:00 PM

    Hmmm, interesting. Are they preparing for a no vote in the referendum? This could be dangerous for the govt even if they accept reforming the seanad. The electorate may take the chance to kick them, esp if things continue as they are.

    Reform it, and give us all a vote.

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