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TWO INDEPENDENT SENATORS have launched a Bill which would mark the biggest reform of the Seanad in modern history – and which would give emigrant Irish citizens the right to vote in its elections.
The proposals from Katherine Zappone and Feargal Quinn would also require the Seanad to retain a gender balance, by ensuring that an equal number of men and women were elected from each of the five vocational panels – which are required to be retained under the current constitution.
The legislation would also impose a pay cut of nearly €20,000 for Seanad members – defining their pay as being half of that for a TD. This would mean the current wage of over €65,000 would fall to €46,336.
Other changes would include extending elections for the university panels – which, again, would require a constitutional referendum to fully abolish – so that graduates of all Irish third-level institutions could take part.
The changes would also allow candidates in Seanad elections to appear on the ballot paper as a result of a popular nomination, signed by 500 citizens. Public petitions, by 1,000 people, could also force items to be added to the Seanad’s agenda for discussion.
Other reforms would give the Seanad powers similar to its US counterpart, the Senate, by scrutinising ministerial appointments to public bodies, and also force the Seanad to approve most statutory instruments – which account for over 80 per cent of all laws enacted in Ireland.
Debate on the Bill is scheduled for Wednesday afternoon, and a vote is likely to be held at the conclusion of the two-hour discussion.
Whether the Bill would pass, if pushed to a vote, is unclear. While both Fine Gael and Labour have asserted their plans to abolish the Seanad, a previous bill from Senator John Crown – which also proposed reforms to the Seanad election process – was met with a warm reception.
On that occasion, the government parties asked Crown not to force a vote – partially to give the parties a chance to consider amendments, but also to avert the prospect of having some FG and Labour senators defy party instructions and vote in its favour.
The only occasions on which the current government has been defeated in a Seanad vote were on matters relating to Seanad reform – when three Labour senators defied the party whip and sided with the opposition when it asked for the Constitutional Convention to consider the issue.
All three of those Senators expressed fundamental problems with plans to reform the Seanad, and a vote – if one was called – could end up causing further embarrassing defeats.
All essential services should remain in public ownership.
What about internet?
Food supply?
Housing?
Electricity, fuel
@Robert O’Rourke: medicine
None of which are already bought and paid for through years of taxation.
@Robert Emmett Birrell:
So the argument is that all essential services that started as state provided services should remain forever in public ownership?
Lets get out on the streets and get our telecoms back. No way, we won’t pay!
For those who vote in favour of privatising our water. I have one word california
@Gagsy 99: Let’s remember that we don’t have broadband in many parts of the country because of the Eircom privatization debacle and so we’re depending on the private sector to provide the infrastructure in remote areas which they won’t do as it’s not profitable. And we’d still be waiting for electricity in the same places had we not established the state owned and run ESB.
Wrdint have broadband in many parts of the country because if one off housing schemes etc.
If people chose to buy or build a house in a remote location for much cheaper than one would Cost in an area with a higher population density then they can’t expect others to pay fir the cost of providing services
Fully agree, anything put in private ownership is asset stripped and end up a mess. Yes Eircom, and look at what was put into private ownership in England. We need to learn not just follow the stupid decisions of others.
@brian magee: So following the logic the more remote houses shouldn’t have an electricity supply then?
And those who get sick can’t expect others to pay for the cost of providing healthcare services?
@Billy Mooney:
Are the 2016 broadband issues really down to the eircom privatization in 1999? Did broadband even exist then?
I agree the state should provide essential services where it is not economical for the private sector to do so but this is far away from retaining all essential services in often inefficient public ownership.
@Gagsy 99: The lack of a national broadband network can be traced directly back to the catastrophic Eircom privatization. It’s the primary why the electricity transmission network wasn’t privaised and is still held in public hands despite the dominant neoliberal dogma. Another example is the current housing crisis is the result of allowing the private sector to determine the supply of accommodation for many decades.
Why do you imagine public ownership is inefficient and private ownership isn’t? And what exactly do we mean by “efficiency” anyhow?
What the private sector is more efficient at is accumulating profit. Commercial enterprise exists solely to make money that is always achieved by increasing prices, diminishing services or exploiting workers more.
Bully during rural electrification people were charged a premium if they were away from others, this was refunded as other houses in the area were built.
Healthcare is a completely different issue and you know it.
I remember waiting 9 years for a phone form tha P&T when I was a kid and we were just off a national road, hardly efficient public services there now was it.
Healthcare isn’t completely different issue. It’s an essential public service as is electricity and now broadband and as such they should always be held in public hands. When the private sector get’s its hands on essential public services then profiteering and exploitation is inevitable as the private enterprise exists solely to accumulate profit.
@Justin McNulty: I remember we bailed out the private sector banks with €100+ billion of the public’s money a few years ago and broke the economy. The banks weren’t too efficient at running their business but they were certainly efficient at looting the public purse.
@Robert O’Rourke: “All essential services should remain in public ownership.”
Why?
@Phil Blanc: Because the private sector exists solely to accumulate profit, not to provide services. Therefore essential services should not be trusted to entities whose only motivation is profit accumulation.
The last few governments have already privatised just about everything that was in public ownership. No reason to think they wouldnt do the same with water.
Should we nationalise tesco dunne etc. good is essential for life Robert.
@Billy Mooney: Don’t forget that much of the rural water infrastructure is also in private hands through group water schemes and consumers still have to pay for it. Many places wouldn’t have piped water only for the schemes.
Too right brian. one off house is a prime example of corruption in local government.
@Justin McNulty: Wasnt that during the period just before privatisation when they were running down P&T?
Well said Mary
Noam Chomsky:
“That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital”
@Chris Kirk: Do you think the rural water schemes will be cheaper when Denis O Brien owns the national water infrastructure?
@Justin McNulty: Exactly. Most people seem to have no memory of how bad most public service delivery is. Even today, we have one of the most centralised and least efficient health services in the world, and a water system which was largely put in by the British and has been deteriorating ever since. Any country which has ever tried centralising food distribution has watched it go horribly wrong and had to turn to markets to fix it. There’s some sort of romantic notion that keeping it all under the same state ownership which has run these services down will somehow magically improve it if only … er … something else happens. And if you suggest that the state has proved itself inept and someone else should be given a go, YOU’RE the dogmatist. Go figure.
@Billy Mooney: “Because the private sector exists solely to accumulate profit, not to provide services.”
How can it accumulate a profit without providing services?
@Ben McArthur:
Everyone provides a service be it good or bad. Its very simple. A barman serves you a pint of Guiness in a pub, that is the service. He charges €50 for the pint. Would you be happy with that service? With privatisation the people dont get any say. I.e put up or shut up and pay your €1000 a year water charges.
@Ben McArthur: Any product or service provided by the private sector is entirely incidental to the quest for profit and it’s the workers who produce those goods and services. For example, the vast finance sector for is now almost entirely parasitic on the productive economy. It’s us the majority working class who provide a service for them to prey on.
@Billy Mooney: “Any product or service provided by the private sector is entirely incidental to the quest for profit and it’s the workers who produce those goods and services”
Sure, and any production by a worker is entirely incidental to his or her quest to get paid. Why do you distinguish between a person selling services for gain and a business selling services for gain?
@Brendan Mason: That is an issue of monopoly, not privatisation. There are few if any examples of any business managing to sustain a monopoly without government support.
If members of a group water scheme don’t like the results, they can ultimately replace the water scheme. We can’t replace Irish Water, instead we’re relying on regulating it, something the Irish state does poorly. That’s its weakness, not whether it is publicly or privately owned. And whether it’s paid for out of general taxation or fees also has nothing to do with whether it is publicly or privately owned.
@Ben McArthur: “Any country which has ever tried centralising food distribution has watched it go horribly wrong and had to turn to markets to fix it. “
You’re aware of course that millions die of malnutrition and starvation annually under the global free market system?
@Ben McArthur:
“Why do you distinguish between a person selling services for gain and a business selling services for gain?”
The worker always earns their wages through their own labour. The capitalist earns his profit through the labour of others. The profit is achieved by always paying the workers less than the value of the goods and services they produce. So the profit is in effect the surplus value which the workers have made over and above their wages. That profit is maximized by paying labour as little as possible and working people as hard as possible. This is the class divide and why the interests of the classes are always opposing.
@Ben McArthur:
Get rid of it. The country managed without it for 100 years. We are paying enough taxes. CAR TAX the most expensive in Europe. Credit card tax @€30, Vat at 23%, Tolls on our roads, High Insurance costs particularly motor insurance, that criminal and illegal VRT charge, USC and property charges, Bin charges, (government had to postpone by-weight bin charges as the vulture bin companies wanted the sun moon and stars), Bank charges, (Amazing the banks were able to turn to profit within 3 years of the crash, very easy,) The price of medical services (Dentist, Doctor, Chemists, Hospital care) is the most expensive in the world bar the USA.
If we continue, Ireland will become the 51st American state.
@Thomas Maher: I hear it’s sunny this time of year. What’s your point?
@Billy Mooney:
You forgot something. The capitalist can charge what he/she likes, the worker has to accept what he/she is offered by the capitalist. you don’t have to go to far to experience it. Think of $KY, annual increase every year (soccer players $350000 a week, Waine Rooney, Rupert Murdoch). Poor old worker €400 a week or less, (been told “you’re lucky to have a job, I can replace you tomorrow get on with it”)
Can we have a Fact check on the numbers of TDs elected on anti water charges manifesto, circa 90/99.. Then cross check this against those who vote for or against this bill.
@Billy Mooney: You’re aware that the free market system you despise has lifted billions of people out of extreme poverty in the last two generation? And that you’re far more likely to go hungry in one of your Marxist paradises?
@Ben McArthur: Any advances made by humanity are in spite of the capitalist system, not as a result of it.
You’re aware of course that capitalism has produced the extreme inequality where the 62 richest individuals on the planet now hold the same wealth as 3500 million people, the poorest half of the globe’s population many of whom starve to death or survive in abject poverty?
And that most of the poorest nations on the planet operate under capitalism? These would include DRC, Liberia, Eritrea, Burundi CAR, Uganda and Bangladesh etc.etc? All abjectly poor with their people starving to death under the capitalist system.
Of course. Capitalism can never produce anything positive, and when it does then it’s not capitalist. Socialism is always positive, and when it isn’t then it’s not socialist. We all understand your circular logic. It bears no resemblance to the real world, though.
@Ben McArthur: It’s not complicated Ben. Capitalism is a system of productive activity where the overriding objective is the accumulation of profit. That profit is achieved by exploiting the workforce and any products and services produced are entirely incidental to that relentless quest for profit. Capitalism cannot resolve the myriad problems facing humanity as it’s the cause of most of them.
It can’t even attempt to address the existential threat of climate change as there is no profit to be made from doing so as even the riches capitalist on the planet understands.
“Bill Gates: Only Socialism Can Save the Climate, ‘The Private Sector is Inept’.”
http://usuncut.com/climate/bill-gates-only-socialism-can-save-us-from-climate-change/
The capitalists profit is manifested primarily in the form of money and it’s crucial to understand that there can never be a shortage of money at a macro level. It’s also important to differentiate between money and real wealth/ resources. Money is how we measure wealth and also a claim on society’s resources. Our fiat currency money is created (and deleted) at will on the computer keyboards of the world’s commercial and central banks. At a macro level there can never be a shortage of a fiat floating currency like the Euro, sterling dollar etc.
In contrast to the instant availability of money, the real wealth of goods and services that we all depend on is created by the labour and skill of the working class from the raw material of the planet. Everything from the food in our bellies to the clothes on our backs right up to the most sophisticated technology is made by the workers.
Money is a claim on that real wealth produced by the working class and this is where money derives it’s power. The capitalist system peddles the illusion that there is a shortage of money (balance the books, reduce the deficit, live within your means etc) in order to oppress and control the working class who are the real creators of wealth.
And the working class has produced more than enough real resources to provide everyone on the planet with proper nutrition, a decent home, healthcare, education, recreation and a job. It’s a political and ideological choice to deny people these basics.
So following the logic, society as a whole has no requirement for and can no longer sustain a system of productive activity with the sole purpose of accumulating money. The money is instantly available at a government/central bank level and is just a tool to measure and allocate the real resources that society has produced collectively. Instead the focus of productive activity should be to meet human need rather than to generate profit for private capital owners. This is the sustainable future for humanity and it’s called socialism.
@Billy Mooney: well he could certainly improve it by taking out the lime scale, costing us a fortune in softener salt.
@Gagsy 99: You need water, it’s life and was here before any of us. It belongs to Nature, not capitalists fat pigs that suck you dry of your income for their profits. Water belongs to us all, we should keep it that way and not hand it over to corporate vultures. We should keep it public, pay an annual charge(250) for its maintenance and be more responsible with it in future.
@Ben McArthur: A bit like the Irish tax payer being told they have to pick up the tab because of poor capitalist decisions by private banks?
Be funny to see how FF will side step supporting this ☺
Gotta be careful Micheal , election looming ….
There is a albeit whitewash report coming. That’s the out. MN knows tge IW is the price of his becoming Taoiseach. He won’t waste credits on this vote.
@Willy: Why should they side step it, it was leader Brian Cowen who proposed it in the first place.
@Chris Kirk: What’s done is done Chris ! Why is the issue even under scrutiny would be my question ? FG can work for or against people & above poll figures show exactly what FG thinks of the People & humanity in general judging by Pics from Saudi of Enda toadying up to to worlds worst abusers of Human Rights ?
Water is new Oil & Gold combined & the Nestlé’s & Unilevers of the World know that & Enda does also & would engage in any skullduggery to deprive Irish Citizens the rights to our greatest national asset !
Not to mention that there is a De Facto scheme going on behind the scenes.
Veolia (International) Ireland are being given 20 year leases to “manage” Irelands waters. Plan was they would ‘clean’ the water and sell on to Irish Water who would bill you.
(Google Srowland treatment plant)
Much the same as the ESB here generates electricity, and then it’s sold to you via multiple providers. This allegedly ‘keeps the cost down’ —- Said the politician as he could lie straight in bed.
Only water that Cowen g.it should be e ear allowed near are The Lakes of Pontchartrain. And only then to drown him in them.
@Chris Kirk:
He was agreeing to have another drink. (in a boozed state, as usual)
There is no doubt that FG want to privatize IW. Otherwise why have they voted against previous motions on this.
Rosa, it’s what FF want too, make no mistake
But FF are power hungry and know the price.
Pretty obvious how this poll will go.
Got to the that sweet click money
@Anto Curran: FF we are watching. Will you stand by your election promises or screw over everyone that voted for you.
Without a doubt the most defining and important week in this governments term.
Yes. Look at what happened in Flint, Michigan where there was less poisoning
Lead poisoning
Yes – absolutely.
As for Fianna Fail, they are all over the place – but started the traitorous path to recharging again for water services.
They just want the people to forget about all that while they twist and turn, say one thing – then do another…
See: http://www.unitedpeople.ie/fianna-fail-playing-both-sides-re-water-recharging/
unitedpeople sinn fein did exactly the same as ff.
@Patrick Gough: They didn’t actually, and are the only party on the island with a proven record of blocking water charges.
Funny how any article on Irish water brings out the government defenders in numbers. Listen, nod, repeat.
The issue should be NO WATER TAX which means no water revenue which in turn means public ownership.
We don’t want capitalists with a monopoly on an essential service ripping us off.
@Moorooka Mick:
Who says it has to be a monopoly?
@Gagsy 99: Redacted is a monopoly. He doesn’t do sharing is caring.
The 8% is from that little squirt Alan Kelly and his brother
All you have to do is look at the UK where they sold off all the water authorities. Be under no illusion folks the exact same thing will happen here.Stay strong this battle to pay for water is only the first step to making rich people in this country even richer.
@Gary Heslin: You mean the bit where they inherited a crumbling water and sewage system and invested tens of billions putting it back together so that it’s now vastly improved? There are good reasons to prefer public ownership but that’s just about the strangest example you could choose.
It should be up to the people to make changes and decisions on a referendum . Water is our public source and was fraudulently privatised.
@hw007: well except it wasn’t privatised.
No government would privatise it, it would be political suicide
@hw007: No it wasn’t privatised. The minister for local government holds 100% of Irish Water’s shares
@Tony Stack: The only thing politically suicidal in this country is the abortion issue.It’s the only thing that scares the political class.They have learned through experience that they can get away with just about everything else.
Why is YES only 86%?
@Brendan Mason: Because it’s just a fact of life that there not all people are mindless automatons who blindly follow everything that the AAA/PBP say. The other 14% did enough research to form their own opinion.
@_doesnotcompute:
Who was in government when the crash took place? it wasn’t Sinn Fein, it wasn’t AAA/PBP, it wasnt any left wing party. it is right wing parties the destroy this country. FF had this country for 14 years, need to jog your memory a bit. They lied their way through for 14 years, stating that people should commit suicide because the economy is overheating. ” GET ON THAT PROPERTY LADDER ” I heard that for 14 years and were are paying for it since. Looking forward to BUST part 2. Its coming your way. Extreme CAPITALISM does not work. There has to be a balance.
@_doesnotcompute: The other 14% swallowed the propaganda you mean……
And protected by the Constitution
Wad going to say everyone should post this poll link to fg hq but then I doubt anyone would read it..
Just look at refuse / waste collection to see what happens when you privatise anything , any attempt to privatise water in this country would spark an uprising and destabilise the entire country no government wants that !
@Mrs M:
My refuse collection is going just grand – reasonable price for a good service in a competitive market.
remain in public ownership but at least run it properly and dont waste our taxes!
Obviously public ownership is essential to ensure we control how our water is paid for. To also ensure that we remain the only country in the OECD with zero water poverty. I would also suggest people look into the fact that there is zero evidence of environmental benefits for using water meters.
Mick Nestlé enjoy your share dividends at the expense of the irish people.
The function of local government is to provide local services. It is not there to facilitate profit making by private operations, at the expense of the local population. This should include water and waste services as well as housing.
@Peter Maxwell: So you don’t mind paying for water services so long as they are provided by a local government body?
We must fight with all our might to prevent our water from being privatised.
The hospitals are being run into the ground to strengthen the case to privatise them too.
The homeless crisis is also manufactured to strengthen the case for building ‘units’ by greedy capatialists .
Why would anyone in their right mind sanction payments of €1000 per week (4K per month ) for a room in a hotel when there are so many boarded up properties around the country that could be totally renovated for an average cost of €30, 000.
People are dying unnecessarily on our streets. The mental health services budget was drastically cut in the reverent budget. Wake up everyone before it’s too late.
Everything is being set up to be privatised. It’s up to us not to let it happen.
561 have voted no. Lets assume 61 people pressed the NO button by accident, therefore 500 have voted NO. If all of FF+FG+LAB+Endapendents vote for privatization that is 105 votes, that leaves 395, how about greedy landlords, developers, and above all our friend DOB. That may not make uo the 395 remaining NO votes. That proves to me there is enough vulture capitalism in this country to go around and around. RIP OF IRELAND IS ALIVE AND WELL.
This issue not gone away and is still to be addressed, whatever side of the argument you are on it needs to be finalised once and for all.
Is Denis in that 8% that voted No
It should be in the ownership of whoever can run it in the most cost effective way while giving value for money.
Does that add up to Public ownership?
@Damocles: Don’t be talking sense. You’re supposed to vote this one emotionally.
It can still be done, the public can own it but outsource its operation and maintenance to a private company, much like the luas
@brian magee: ” You’re supposed to vote this one emotionally.”
Emotionally I like to see companies that aren’t wasteful particularly when I’m a customer of their services.
It turns out though many people see public ownership as being more important than effective service.
I think that’s a bit sad.
Brian magee…precisely, public ownership operations contracted out to best…not just cheapest, or “Irish” contractor. Of course, there would have to be a parallel law enacted prohibiting the import, production, sale, handling or use of brown envelopes in Ireland.
There, two problems sorted.
No Damocles, it should be in the stewardship of whoever …… .
Ownership means it can be passed along to new owners . Good or bad.
@Damocles: I disagree…
I should be owned by the state and should be licenced to an operator who can run it in the most cost effective way while giving value for money while meeting whatever contractual obligations we require of them.
Phil Blanc. It should be owned by the people for people end of.
@Damocles: So handing it over to a tax isle billionaire will make it better? Public ownership is the only way that many people wont be exploited by greedy billionaires.If we had got proper govt instead of quangos, corruption and jobs for the boys we already would have had an effective service.
@Phil Blanc: Problem there is that currently ireland is supposedly a soveregn state what happens if kenny has his way and we become a fully integrated part of eu who owns the water then ????
@Peter donnelly: What are you on about? we already are a fully integrated member of the EU.
8% of people think it SHOULD be privatised????? Worse still 3% of people DON’T KNOW one way or the other?!?!
And yet we mock Trump supporters!
No, I’d rather if Nestle took it over.
Bull Mick. Should be thick Mick.
Obviously Ray doesn’t get sarcasm……
Obviously Brian doesn’t get humour….
I get it, but what you posted wasn’t humour !!
It was to me.
@ray.farrelly: stop digging ray
All I know Ben Mc Arthur is almost 55% of my pay packet goes to the government each month.I think I have more than paid to have water on tap.(excuse the pun)
Not sure that’s a pun Gary…
Who are these 8% against
Stupid question really, but will our wishes be respected and rights?
The taxpayer will have given close to €3 billion to Irish Water by end of 2016 Information from the P.A.C ,Some 30% of the local property tax revenue collected in 2014 was also diverted to Irish Water, as it is part of the local government fund The semi-state body received a subvention of €439 million in 2014 and is expected to receive €399 million and €479 million in 2015 and 2016 respectively. ,We pay for water many times
For water:Public ownership run efficiently by a semi state with reasonable salaries, financed by a generous fixed water charge based on occupancy numbers.
Ruairi why base it on occupancy levels? No incentive for reducing consumption and the lad living on his own with a 50m pool is paying the same as the lad living on his own without a bath tub
Well add a swimming pool charge. UK has shown charges don’t reduce consumption. All the billing system does is add massive overheads. Better to put that money into fixes the pre meter leaks and new infrastructure.
5m on postage. 5m to administer and 80 out of the budgetted 160m on a bribe and no accountability as usual.
@lavbeer: Use electronic means of communication only, like Revenue do. There 5m million saved. Boom. Job done.
Definitely, hopefully that will stop some of the bleating and enable a proper stand alone charging structure to be put in place.
@KerryBlueMike: The taxpayer will have given close to €3 billion to Irish Water by end of 2016 Information from the P.A.C ,Some 30% of the local property tax revenue collected in 2014 was also diverted to Irish Water, as it is part of the local government fundThe semi-state body received a subvention of €439 million in 2014 and is expected to receive €399 million and €479 million in 2015 and 2016 respectively. ,We pay for water many times ,https://youtu.be/jGhdjNX50-8 .You must be a special kind of stupid to want people to pay again ,
Water is the stuff of life. We were told for years that VAT and tax increases were necessary to ensure the provision of safe drinkable water in a country where the stuff falls from the skies most days of the year and surrounds us ever more so now that the ice caps are melting. For years under a different form of foreign domination we sang “Only the rivers run free”. It is ironic indeed that nearly a century after independence not even that is true to say nowadays. The IMF and World Bank in ever benighted third world country that’s had to call them in have made water privatisation a requirement of any assistance they might give. The horror stories from South America are salutary reading in this context. Privatisation means social goods are turned to private profit and those who can’t pay can’t play. Fine if the things being so privatised are matters of personal choice.. Water is not. Add in one corrupt SOB with a major party in his pocket after he bailed them out for millions who now has our water in his sights, having stolen another major asset of the Irish people through bribing and corrupting a scu.mba.g Tipp politician. Disaster.
Difficult one
The IMF wants to sell that asset as well as the HSE as well?
Yes. But if the TISA agreement comes into force we could be forced to privatise it.
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