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THE VISION PAINTED by the world’s leading climate scientists was bleak. The spiralling trajectory of our planet’s climate breakdown outlined in a landmark 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report could only be halted by total systemic change.
Here at home, there was hope we would rise to the challenge. The Greens were elected to a coalition government that showed climate ambition across a string of policies peppering the Programme for Government.
The citizen was outlined as central to the energy revolution, with plans to increase rooftop solar and pay those selling excess electricity back to the national grid.
Thirteen years and several governments later, however, and Ireland is still languishing toward the bottom of the EU solar charts while many European colleagues – both south and north – excelled, offering a streamlined and simplified system of financial, regulatory and administrative support.
We are now staring down the barrel of strict EU legal requirements to put a robust system in place by next summer to support citizens and communities to both produce energy at home for self-consumption and sell it back to the grid at a fair market price.
Plans to achieve the targets are laid out in the Climate Action Plan, with a special multi-agency and department-led working group established last autumn to design policy to achieve the targets and set a lasting solar legacy for Ireland that has the citizen at its core.
Over the past few months, Noteworthy took a deep dive into this space, combing through hundreds of pages of research and policy papers, many released through Access to Information on the Environment (AIE) requests, to piece together the key blockages that stopped us from reaching the heights of our EU neighbours.
We also spoke with energy experts, community groups and citizens seeking to play their climate role, finding that the following unresolved issues have left us facing a ticking clock to meet the upcoming EU deadline:
Noteworthy also analysed dozens of records obtained through AIE requests that give the inside track on the Microgeneration Working Group (MGWG) and the direction in which future policy looks to be heading.
Decades waiting on a revolution
Plans are afoot to set out a long-term strategy to decarbonise our electricity sector – long supplied by imported fossil fuels and indigenous peat. One of the key moves is to ensure that 70% of electricity comes from renewable sources by 2030.
While wind power will play a predominant role – it now accounts for over 30% of annual production – solar will also have its day.
Ground-mounted solar will play a big part, but small-scale rooftop solar will also have a future as the government moves to meet an EU deadline to support energy prosumers – those both producing for self-consumption and selling excess electricity back to the grid – by June 2021.
There is a long way to go to match the solar ambition of many of our European allies set in motion in the mid to late-2000s. While we possess one of the highest rates of private homes suitable for solar in the EU, we have one of the lowest levels in the bloc.
According to ESB Networks, the best available data indicates that there are around 30,000 domestic solar installations – just over 1% of household electricity consumers.
So what allowed other counties to excel, while Ireland languished in the background. While there have been supports for solar via grants and tax incentives, the key factor missing according to many experts who spoke to Noteworthy was a feed-in-tariff.
Financial support for microgeneration
In a nutshell, feed-in-tariffs provide a guaranteed, long-term payment for excess electricity you can’t use at home that is then fed back into the electricity grid for use elsewhere.
It was the most popular microgeneration support mechanism at the height of the EU boom and has been used to support large-scale electricity generation in Ireland.
A more market-based solution where electricity suppliers develop deals for customers was favoured here for small-small solar after the energy regulator, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU), set out the grounds for microgenerators to sell electricity in 2007.
A small payment package was brought in by Electric Ireland, then ESB Customer Supply. Overall, however, suppliers showed little interest and this scheme only attracted around 700 applications.
The system was not changed despite the findings in a detailed 2010 microgeneration report from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) released to Noteworthy that:
“It is not clear that the benefits delivered by small-scale generation technologies are rewarded via market arrangements.”
A recent EU survey of prosumers found that direct compensation was a key factor in deciding to install solar. Saving money on energy bills and benefiting from incentives are “still top drivers in most of the mature markets”, the survey found.
Ireland is no different. A 2018 SEAI survey found that the cost of installation and future financial benefits are key factors considered by potential solar installers.
This is reflected in the uptake of an SEAI pilot grant scheme launched in July 2018 that offers a one-off payment to support purchase of solar panels, covering roughly a quarter of the costs.
The latest data shows increasing public interest, with 71 applicants paid in 2018, rising to 1,827 in 2019 and 1,589 up to the end of July this year.
Feed-in tariff ‘the secret behind German success’
An SEAI review of feed-in-tariff options from January 2011 had already pointed to the important role of tariffs in increasing user interest, such as in Germany, whose system is often cited as the gold standard for a strong solar support model.
In the early 2000s, the Parliament introduced legislation to support renewable energy, including in a 20-year guaranteed solar feed-in-tariff that was the “secret behind the German success”, according to Hans-Josef Fell, the Green politician who crafted the law.
Fell, a former physics teacher, told Noteworthy that this allowed new smaller players to enter the market.
“Ninety-five percent of renewable investment in our state until 2016 was made by decentralised actors, new actors, by the people, by farmers.”
Dr Louise Fitzgerald, an Irish Research Council-funded researcher who has examined German solar policy as part of her work on sustainable energy transitions, said that the long-term nature of the tariff was “important as an enabler of citizen-centred energy transitions”, making solar accessible to people who didn’t have the funds to go it alone.
A key part of any energy transition journey, she said, is to “build pathways through the status quo” and that, in order to do so, “you need a relatively long timeframe” of guaranteed support.
“That was the key to the success of any transition in Germany because when you look at the data, overwhelmingly, the installations of renewable energy in Germany has come from private people, from citizen cooperatives, from smaller enterprises.”
Irish solar pioneers left in the lurch
Apart from the Electric Ireland scheme – due to expire soon – and new Glanbia support for dairy farmers, there are no direct export supports available to small-scale Irish solar installers and, therefore, very little incentive to install panels.
In addition, many homeowners with panels have meters installed with the capacity to measure the electricity exported, but don’t get paid for anything that spills onto the grid.
One of them is Siobhan Kinahan who recently made the decision to install panels and get an electric car with her husband from money left to them by his father after he passed away.
While receiving financial reward wasn’t a motivational factor for Roscommon-based Kinahan, she said that “one big gripe” she has is the lack of a feed-in-tariff as she often ends up exporting half of what she produces to the grid.
“I wouldn’t look at it as a return on investment but I feel that having gone through the expense and time of putting in a solar system, you should get something back from it,” she said.
Another example of an eco-conscious solar pioneer left out of pocket is Kenneth Keavey of Green Earth Organics who installed a large rooftop solar array in 2018 with support under an organic farming grant scheme.
The vegetable farmer told Noteworthy that it was a “natural progression” to produce clean energy to power the refrigeration system at the farm in Galway.
While easy to install the panels, Keavey raised a “point of contention” with ESB Networks over delays in installing his meter which meant that, for several months, he could not send his export readings to his energy supplier to offset against the farm’s electricity bill.
Despite this bump in the road, Keavey maintained that putting panels on your roof “is a no-brainer” but understands that the absence of a direct payment model will see most farmers staying away.
‘Appetite from farmers’ for action
Despite assurances from politicians and civil servants over the years, James Murphy, renewables chair of the Irish Farmers’ Association (IFA) from 2014 to 2018, told Noteworthy that the government has yet to make any meaningful effort to meet the “appetite from farmers” to install rooftop solar.
The Tipperary farmer said that a feed-in-tariff would “let the steam out of the pressure cooker” that Irish farmers are working in as profit margins shrink in most sectors.
“It wasn’t just about renewable energy production [in other European countries], it was about supporting local communities and farming families, giving them an opportunity.”
There is now installation support for the 17,000 dairy and 2,500 pig and poultry farms dotted across the country under the Targeted Agriculture Modernisation Schemes (TAMS) for farm equipment. Glanbia also recently partnered with SSE Airtricity to offer dairy farmers an annual solar power export rebate.
The TAMS system does not appear to be working well, however, according to minutes of a meeting last November between the Department of Agriculture and the Micro Renewable Energy Federation (MREF) that represents solar manufacturers, suppliers and installers.
MREF pointed to a lack of interest in the scheme due to excessive paperwork and limits on size of the solar panels. TAMS data seen by Noteworthy shows that only 86 solar applications were received in 2019 and 2020, with 20 approved to date.
There are also grant limits under TAMS, with many dairy farmers using their allowance to buy expensive milking equipment, leaving them without enough allowances left to also install solar panels. This has impacted the Glanbia scheme.
The company raised its concerns with the Department at a meeting last July where its proposal for a separate funding pot for solar was refused as the rules for the scheme are set under the EU co-funded Rural Development Programme.
In a statement, the Department said that “the position remains that there is no provision for a separate measure for solar PV” but that changes were made to increase the limit on solar installation sizes for grant support.
Support system still to be decided
A draft discussion paper from the Microgeneration Working Group released to Noteworthy reveals that it is edging toward bringing in some form of support payment for microgeneration on top of market-based export payments for farmers, businesses and homeowners.
The draft from May 2020 concludes that a market payment is “the minimum that must be delivered through the Micro-generation Support Scheme” and that this measure alone is less attractive than the existing pilot SEAI grant scheme. The paper states that market-driven payment alone:
“…represents a low ambition, compliance driven scenario which is likely to substantially reduce the number of new retrofit installations of Solar PV due to the viability gap between the cost of the installation versus the remuneration and own-use retail electricity savings.”
The draft paper outlines a potential payment option for electricity generated by rooftop solar to go on top of the market-driven export payment, concluding that an economic and policy analysis must be carried out “in order to complete this section”.
The Department of Climate Action has since put out a request for tender for this work. It said in a statement that options will then be put forward in a public consultation later this year. It added that a “suitable support payment for excess electricity… will be available to all micro-generators by 2021”.
What is clear for the moment is that a system to record import and export data must be in place by next year in order to comply with EU law. Key to this is a complex €1.2 billion programme to roll out 2.4 million smart meters by 2024.
Meters rolling out slowly
The energy regulator launched the first phase of the smart meter programme in late 2007 and a positive cost-benefit analysis (CBA) in 2011 found that 80% of consumers could be equipped with a new meter by 2020.
Smart meters can communicate information over the 2G network and provide both homeowners and electricity suppliers with granular real-time data on electricity usage every 30 minutes that should ensure accurate market prices for exports.
While the concept is fairly simple, the route to the installation of the first meter is incredible complex and requires interaction with various stakeholders across a range of areas such as procurement, customer engagement and, importantly, information technology as the largest technology project in ESB Network’s history.
It is not surprising, then, that the road has been bumpy and that the programme was delayed in 2016 due to procurement and technical issues.
While the CRU outlined its general concerns to Irish media at the time, a memo to the Department of Climate Action in November 2016 released to Noteworthy reveals the regulator’s concerns in stark terms as it stated that the delay “would be expected to result in sanction / fines being applied”.
Benefits to consumers ‘delayed’ and ‘deferred’
The memo outlines delays in the upgrade of ESB Networks’ sales and information system to make them compatible with smart meters, as well as procurement and technical issues that led the regulator to carry out a “comprehensive re-plan”.
The regulator requested ESB Networks to submit updated plans by May 2016 but did not receive anything until August at which stage it “introduced alternative approaches from those previously agreed and understood within the programme”, the memo states.
“ESBN have proposed a four-year rollout programme for smart meters concluding Q1 2026… [and] a much reduced pre-deployment [of smart meters that] would impact the CBA by delaying the point at which a critical mass of meters was deployed,” the memo reads.
The regulator added that benefits for energy consumers “will be delayed and the opportunity to allow the consumer to boost energy efficiency and save money deferred”.
A second cost-benefit analysis was subsequently carried out in 2017 and a new phased approach agreed that would see the programme pushed back for completion between 2019 and 2024, including a tempered roll out of 250,000 meters by the end of 2020.
A heavily redacted version of ESB Group’s 2018 Risk Plan released to Noteworthy also outlines the ESB’s own concerns about the “reputational and financial risk” resulting from the potential failure to meet the 250,000 target by 2020.
The programme appears to largely back on track, however, and installations under the new phased approach did begin as planned in late 2019.
In June, the ESB board expressed satisfaction with progress to date. A recent internal audit report also found that there is “a robust and effective planning process in place” with a well-defined project structure, roles and responsibilities.
Despite this progress, the programme hit another roadblock recently, one that has affected us all, as Covid-19 halted installations between March and May this year.
An internal ESB email from 5 June 2020 released to Noteworthy states that installations have restarted in select parts of countries Cork, Dublin, Laois and Meath. The email states that 51,549 meters were installed by the end of May.
In an update to the ESB Board in June 2020, ESB Networks indicated that it will be liable to a penalty of €7.5m if less than 150,000 meters are installed by the end of 2020.
It said in a statement that it forecasts 200,000 meters will be installed by the end of the year. It added that it is confident that it can “absorb the shortfall over the remaining phases of the programme without affecting the overall timeline”.
Planning permission blocking progress
Many experts told Noteworthy that outdated planning regulations are another key blockage to rooftop solar.
While permission is largely not required in more mature European markets, Irish homeowners need planning where panels take up more than 12 square meters or 50% of the roof area. This essentially limits households to seven panels.
A recent analysis by the SEAI found that this only meets 35% of the average home’s electricity demand and even less in the home of the future with heat pumps and electric vehicles.
Any step above this threshold opens citizens up to the potential for legal action, as was the case with Asia Pasinska, who moved from Poland 20 years ago with dreams of a self-sufficient life in the countryside.
For now, the mother-of-three is living in a house in Gouldavoher Estate in Limerick that she bought in 2016 with plans to turn it into an energy efficient home.
The key component to her eco-friendly model, she told Noteworthy, were the 21 second-hand solar panels installed on her rooftop in May 2017.
Within a month, however, her plans hit a major snag after a neighbour complained and asked Limerick County Council to investigate if Pasinska was in breach of planning regulations. What followed over the next 16 months, Pasinska claimed, was like a “psychological war”.
‘I felt like a criminal’
Documents released to Noteworthy by Limerick County Council show various warning and enforcement notices, a series of back and forth emails with the Council in a bid to resolve the matter, a failed bid for retention permission and the removal of 14 panels that ended up sitting in her attic or under the back shed.
The case proceeded to Limerick District Court in September 2018 after she refused an offer from the Council to drop the case if she paid certain legal fees. In a statement, the Council said it is “normal procedure” to offer to withdraw a case where there is compliance with the enforcement notice and once legal costs are paid.
While she lost the case, she appealed her failed bid for planning retention to An Bord Pleanála. The planning authority decided in July 2019 that the 21 panel set-up was “in accordance with the proper planning and sustainable development of the area”.
While all 21 panels are now back in place, Pasinska said she “felt like a criminal” during the process, leaving her feeling “very low” at times. She ended up €7,000 out of pocket including a payment of €550 to the Council for legal fees, as well as the cost of installing a gas boiler against her environmental ethos.
“It’s a perfect example where the Irish law didn’t move fast enough with the development of technology. It’s just sad that it takes individuals like myself to question why there’s so many walls and hoops to hop over.”
Pasinska said she was buoyed by support from environmental groups, including Friends of the Earth, whose Deputy Director Kate Ruddock told Noteworthy that the planning system also disadvantages schools and community centres that need permission to install even one panel.
Ruddock worked with five schools last year to install solar panels and the cost of planning permission, she said, added around €2,500 to the final project costs for each school. “That’s a huge amount of cost and delay for anybody.”
The Department of Housing was tasked with re-examining the regulations by the end of 2019, with delays frustrating Ruddock who has been calling for change for years.
Waiting for action
Letters released to Noteworthy also point to growing frustration from the solar microgeneration industry group MREF. In August 2018, the group told the then Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy that the regulations impose an “unnecessary bureaucratic and cost burden on homeowners”.
In another letter in October 2018 to the then Minister of State for Housing and Urban Development Damien English, the group said that the Department’s reasoning for the current regulations are “totally inadequate”.
With little progress over the next year, the group told Minister English in September 2019 that its “members are very concerned at the lack of progress”.
“Our information is telling us that little or no work has being done on this issue to date,” the group said in the letter, to which Minister English informed the group in October 2019 that the matter was “being treated with the utmost urgency”.
Despite the assurances, notes from a meeting of the Microgeneration Working Group that same month reveal that the Department was clear that the end of year deadline would be “very challenging to achieve”.
While the draft regulations are not available, notes from the working group indicate that the Department will scrap the current limits for households and allow larger installations based on the size of the individual roof itself.
The Department also confirmed at the working group’s meeting in December that it intends to remove the need for planning for industrial and agricultural buildings – both currently need planning for solar over 50 square metres – as well as schools, community buildings and apartments, so long as the panel array is under 300 square metres.
Glint and glare bring new delays
The finalisation of the regulations, however, is currently held up over concerns with the potential impact of glint and glare from solar panels on aviation safety.
The Department has held discussions with the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) which proposed that local authorities develop safeguarding maps around airports and aerodromes within which anyone looking to put up panels would need to submit a glint and glare assessment.
The Department said that this would be “excessive”, according to notes from an internal meeting, with an exclusion zone based on plane approach and departure paths deemed a “more effective and reasonable” solution.
The IAA told Noteworthy it has “no specific or overriding concerns” with the Department’s proposed changes to planning rules for solar. It added that it continues to engage with the Department to “facilitate the most pragmatic and efficient solution to allowing these exemptions be operated with no detrimental impact on aviation safety”.
The Department put out a call for tender in August for guidance maps to identify areas close to airports and aerodromes where planning exemptions may not apply. It told Noteworthy that the regulations will “be ready in the coming months” but did not give a specific deadline.
Limits on the grid
Many people who spoke to Noteworthy have also pointed a finger of blame at ESB Networks for a perceived hesitancy to expand limits on microgeneration.
To be classed as a microgenerator, those on a residential connection can install a solar system with a maximum output of 6kW (around 20 panels). Those on a three-phase connection such as some farms and large businesses, can go up to to 11kW (around 45 panels).
This is relatively low compared to many EU countries with higher capacity caps closer to 50kW and up to 100kW in some cases. This limitation is important as, once you fall under microgeneration, you pass through a more streamlined connection process with no fees.
Anything above 11kW and you need to fill in a more complicated form, pay an application fee of over €750, and grid connections are capped at 30 offers per year.
While ESB Networks told Noteworthy that it has never refused a microgeneration connection, the SEAI deemed the limit to be “insufficient” at the MGWG meeting in January 2020.
This problem was highlighted back in January 2013, with the SEAI’s report on a series of microgeneration trials finding barriers “for small-scale generation projects which fall outside of the planning exemptions and ESB Networks’ micro-generation connection process”.
Change appears to be on the way, with the MGWG agreeing in December 2019 to a microgeneration definition that would see non-domestic limits increased to 50kW, while household limits will likely remain at 6KW, above the average household’s needs.
According to a May 2020 draft Working Group discussion paper, consumers acting together and renewable energy communities will also fall under the 50kW upper limit.
ESB Networks was not originally in favour of such changes, voicing concern at the working group’s meeting in September 2019 that increasing the definitions “would be a significant change” with potential impacts on the grid.
It told Noteworthy that it is fully committed to “actively supporting all Irish homes, communities and businesses in their choices and activities at this time of fundamental change in the energy sector”.
Technical concerns over solar
While changes to planning rules are more straightforward policy decisions, any change to export limits have technical ramifications and experts agree that ESB Networks have genuine concerns over the potential impact of lots of small solar installations connecting to the grid.
The electricity grid needs to maintain a balance between supply and demand of power at all times and this is challenged by renewable energy that does not provide the consistent and stable supply that traditional large fossil fuel power stations can.
The problem is compounded by our very high proportion of connections to one-off rural homes, a fairly unique problem in Europe.
While Ireland has received international praise for the grid’s ability to handle large quantities of wind power, there are still issues with rooftop solar that can experience sudden spikes in production that can fluctuate wildly over the space of a few seconds.
This can then send excess power out to the grid in a short period of time and cause voltage problems and the overloading of transformers, at which point protection mechanisms will kick in and people can get disconnected.
While agreeing that too much solar in the wrong place can cause grid issues, Technological University Dublin energy researcher Rene Peeren doesn’t agree with ESB Networks’ favoured solution to create a system where people are incentivised to focus on self-consumption.
In a March 2019 draft of its position on possible microgeneration supports, ESB Networks noted its preference that any financial incentives for exports over and above market value are “not excessive”.
Setting financial support too high, it said, could lead to “excessively rapid deployment” and people “installing oversized solar installations” to avail of the export tariff. Such issues, it said, “might require ESB Networks to place constraints on growth for technical reasons”.
Alternative solutions for the future
Peeren told Noteworthy that there is a better solution largely neglected in policy until recently – the creation of localised, digital smart grids where any electricity generated in that area is also traded and consumed locally.
The Dutch researcher was involved in a testbed pilot in Tallaght that won best research project at the SEAI Energy Awards in 2018 and aims to demonstrate that electricity demand and supply can be handled at the community level, create prosumers and build energy democracy.
By controlling supply and demand in a localised market, the system should manage the grid disturbances flagged by ESB Networks, he said, an idea echoed by chartered power engineer Dudley Stewart who runs MPOWER, the lead company on the Tallaght project.
Stewart pioneered this local grid idea and has pushed for policy support for over a decade, telling Noteworthy that ESB Networks’ “worst nightmares are coming” unless the grid system is redesigned in a way so that disturbances are diffused locally.
“[Generated electricity] goes to a central point owned and managed by a bunch of people who have established themselves together to have personal energy security and a clear view of what energy is going to cost them over time, while bolstering the system and getting paid for that and reversing climate change.”
Stewart is also involved in projects in Limerick and on the Aran Islands that Dara Ó Maoildhia of the Aran Islands Energy Cooperative said “ties the knot” in its goal to shed the islands’ reliance on mainland electricity supply from a subsea cable.
There are significant inefficiencies in the supply from the cable and more worrying, Ó Maoildhia said, is the potential repeat of the 2016 power outage during the height of the economically vital August tourist season after the cable was cut.
“So right there’s a really clear warning of what can happen,” he said, pointing to the importance of a resilient electricity system for the islands where there are already a number of solar panels installed.
Solar power, he said, has a “spearheading role” in the islands’ energy future, due to high community acceptance, ease of installation, and because solar produces more electricity during the summer when the islands face the energy-draining touristic season.
Lack of research funding
Peeren is hopeful that results from these projects will emerge in the next three years, revolutionise a smart localised grid system and allow for greater solar energy penetration.
While buoyed by the prospects, he expressed disappointment that the government has been slow to ramp up research despite findings over a decade ago that grid issues could be mitigated by clustering local generation to form a smart grid.
Solar was also left out of the final technology list in a major 2008 study to measure the ability of the grid to absorb large amounts of renewables as it was deemed too expensive at the time.
Dr Shafi Khadem of the International Energy Research Centre (IERC) in Cork is another disappointed researcher, pointing to a 2017 European Commission study that found Ireland was spending below the EU average for research and development on smart grids.
Khadem currently has a leading role in an EU project to examine countries where research has been historically low for smart grid and community-led renewables. Ireland is on the list.
While the project reports that we are progressing in areas such as electricity markets and flexible generation, the analysis states that Ireland “should take care” in certain areas including energy communities, grid digitalisation and non-wind generation.
“From the Irish point of view, I would say the policy or regulation is still not that supportive in this space… Ireland is far behind in this area. It’s really frustrating.”
You only have to look at Northern Ireland, Khadem said, where policy is more supportive for consumers to become prosumers. “They’re doing a lot. And we’re just sitting and watching.”
The Department of Climate Action said there is already significant research ongoing, including from the SEAI and EirGrid, as well as a climate commitment in the Programme for Government for a “transformational programme of research and development”.
Despite the policy pitfalls and ongoing delays in some key areas, public interest in solar continues to grow, as seen in the uptake of the SEAI pilot grant scheme.
Smart meter installations appear to be back on track and, earlier this week, the ESB secured a €150 million loan from the European Investment Bank to support the roll-out.
Documents from the Microgeneration Working Group show that, despite some significant policy kinks still to work out, there is an ambition to create space for homeowners, farmers and community groups to power a cleaner future for Ireland.
While rooftop solar is unlikely to reach the heights of wind power, various experts told Noteworthy that it can play a significant role in both keeping the lights on and ensuring a role for citizens in our renewable energy transformation.
“We have to get rid of the mindset that simply because it’s called microgeneration, it can only play a small role. It can play a very big role,” said TU Dublin’s Peeren, but, he added, only so long as we avoid the mistakes of the past and get the policy right this time around.
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This investigation was carried out by Niall Sargent of Noteworthy. It was proposed and funded by you, our readers.
Noteworthy is the investigative journalism platform from TheJournal.ie. You can support our work by helping to fund one of our other investigation proposals or submitting an idea for a story. Click here to find out more >>
We also have a number of environmental investigation proposals, some of which are almost funded which you can view here.
Russia will be getting jitters now. They took a gamble on crimea it arguably paid off. They did not get up from the table and called the west over eastern Ukraine with a weak hand.
Went spectacularly wrong for vlad. It’s a train crash still happening.
The reason why support is so high is because the Russian government has done a fantastic job in convincing the Russian people that it’s entirely the West’s fault. Putin has convinced the Russian people that the US has been aggressively targeting Russia for no reason when the truth is the US is only acting thanks to Putin’s constant land-grabs in post-Soviet states.
“Putin’s constant land-grabs in post-Soviet states” or in as seen in Russia as protecting russian/prorussian citizens interests. What about the US and israel?
Surprise, another Putinist uses the trademark whataboutery move.
The topic of discussion here is Russian aggression in the Ukraine, the US and Israel has absolutely no bearing on the subject. Discuss it to your hearts content on articles about the US and Israel.
The simple fact is Russia has been incredible heavy-handed in post-Soviet states since the collapse of the USSR and is aggressively attempting to incorporate various separatist states along its border in direct conflict with international law.
Jason Culligan. Israel certainly dose have bearing on this topic.
How many US Senators in Congress also hold dual citizenship with Israel? To many for comfort, we saw all this with the cheer leading on Gaza, sending cops to Israel for police training etc.
This Battle in Ukraine is about the expansion of Zi0 US Empire, the feathering of its nest ant all costs even if it drags Europe into a nuclear war. The Israel Regime is ruthless and they are pulling the strings behind this battle as well as on the other front in Syria.
Frank, your unfounded paranoia never ceases to amaze.
Can’t agree with you there Jason, all the land grabs have been by the EU, US and NATO, grabs now becoming more military with the seizure of Ukraine by a coup. Putin seems to be correct about the warlike intentions of NATO and its partners.
Jason Culligan _ Speaking of Rothschild who is paying the wages of these wars is not being paranoid.
Frank, tell us how many senators have dual citizenship with Israel?
Declan Noonan ..At least 29 are Israel dual citizen, no other country would allow this
It also dose not include the pull that the US receives from outside, those that cherry pick politicians and win elections.
And a little yeast certainly works through the whole batch of dough
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/dualcitizensushouse25oct14.shtml
Gerard, claiming that the only one grabbing land is the West is by far one of the most historically ignorant comments I’ve seen on the topic to date. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia has a long list of invasions, military interventions and violent suppression of dissent.
Jason, it is somewhat petulant calling someone’s comment ignorant while ignoring the fact that a cursory look at the situation shows land grabs and despotism is almost the sole reserve of the west and its friends.
Gerard, you do realise that Russia forcefully occupied Eastern Europe for nearly 60 years right? You also realise that Russia has been led by outright dictators or presidents with extreme levels of power for the entirety of the existence of a Russian state and that they have an incredibly long track record of outward aggression.
Pick up a history book.
As do the Americans, British,French etc etc.
Jason, Russia did not forcefully occupy eastern Europe for 60 years, that is like saying America forcefully occupied western Europe for 60 years. I fully realize that America has outwardly spread extreme right wing death systems all over the world, pick up a history book and start with Chilie
You ignore history to promote your insane desire to promote the death coult of America .
Gerard. Budapest in 56 ring any bells or Prague in 68.
Viet Nam, Guatamala, Chille Etc. Etc. You don’t make a good argument Mick.
Well done Ukraine. In spite of continuous criticism over the years of an ineffective foreign policy, Obama has really showed his teeth here. America and Europe working together have proved they still have great power.
Putin was assured by his advisers earlier in the year that they had enough foreign reserves to withstand a standoff with the West. Coupled with the truly dramatic fall in oil prices, America nearing self sufficiency, Russia is now reeling and the rouble has collapsed. Russia will keep Crimea but eastern Ukraine is a grab too far. Keep up the pressure.
Not to mention the winter has been fierce mild.. :)
Obama has really showed his teeth here? Are you kidding? 4,700 people are dead and the Russians annexed Crimea.
Cian, plays by Obama have pretty much written off any chance of a military invasion of Eastern Ukraine by the Russians. Not only would such a move cripple the Russian economy for the next decade, it would lead to the complete political isolation of Russia and could even lead to direct small-scale confrontation with the much larger and more capable NATO forces building up in Europe.
the US and EU have played their cards well.
Jason Culligan _The US and EU have played their cards well to provoke war..
Cian 4700 peopl Dead an Ukraine killed most of them.
Cian 4700 people Dead an Ukraine has killed most of them.
Isaac, any proof that the majority of the dead were killed by the Ukrainian forces?
Jason. You should know by now the Putinistas don’t do proof, provable fact or even truth.
Are the Rebels shelling there own strongholds Jason? Are they shelling themselves?
You Think Ukraine are using Nerf guns?
Isaac, the rebels also have access to mortars, howitzers and MLRS’. There’s a vast record of cities, towns, villages and fortified positions held by the Ukrainian military which have come under long-range attacks and these have caused a lot of casualties.
The way you’re talking, it sounds like you’re convinced only people in rebel-held territory are dying.
Jason, the vast majority of people being killed are in rebel held areas. This is a fact. There are hundreds of videos on Youtube showing peoples houses as ruins in the aftermath of a Ukrainian shelling and the rebels showing up with the fire brigades to help them.
I also talk to people daily who are in Donetsk and they tell me whats going on. These people are not rebels by the way, but trust me they are much more afraid of the Ukrainian army .
They run to the rebel groups for protection, food and shelter.
This is ethnic cleansing to make Russian Ukrianians a tiny minority in the new Ukraine, as opposed to almost half the population as it stands now.
There has been a lot of US intervention and investment in this Ukrainian coup – Joe Bidens son wants his payback.
The Western citizens fall for the “Putin is evil” as their opinion is moulded by the feeder news agencies.
Putin is just misunderstood…..
Sort of like Stalin
Joe Bidens son is director of a company that will Frack for Oil in East Ukriane. After those inconvenient Russian speaking Ukrainians have been cleansed from the land by constant Ukrainian shelling.
Well done people, you have been fooled.
Correction – Frack for gas.
Ukraine is the iconic mascot for standing up to bullies
Now if the Russian people could stand up to bully Vlad, the world would be a better place.
Most dont even see the corrupt side of him because their media paints him as a god and they ignore western media
Rose tinted glasses there Liam.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who had to leave their homes in East Ukraine because of Ukrainian Shelling.
Shannon, I would be interested to know how you know that Russians ignore western media? Do you know any Russians, Have you been to Russia or Ukraine? Do you know the demographics of English speakers there and the statistics of how many of them watch Western news?
No?.. Though not.
Your Armchair diagnosis of all Russians is pathetic. Believe it or not, Russians are human beings many of which are very open minded and they don’t like the way their country is headed.
Armchair diagnosis. …. Nice one but he is saying what the western people and the Western governments believe and know.
Russians don’t listen to much else only state media all controlled by kremlin.
You just have to look at RT to see its a propaganda machine for those of lower intellectual abilities in the west. Vast majority of course don’t buy into it
Charles again. I know plenty of Russians in Russia and Ukraine and they all watch western news. So your wrong there.
But hey you enjoy your vitriolic hatred of Russian people there Charles.
What happened to you ? A beautiful Russian woman shunned you for a real man?
By the way Charles how do you know all Russians are lazy and don’t want to work Like you stated in the comment the Journal (Rightly) deleted?
The world is a stage. It’s the west causing tension. I honestly think Russia wants to be left alone and the west isn’t happy because Russia won’t play by the rules the way they want, and I’m not on about Crimea.
What are you on about then?
This is exactly what he is on about.
The USSR used Eastern Europe as a buffer between itself and the European continent that had invaded it repeatedly in previous centuries.
When it collapsed Russia was given assurances that NATO would not seek to expand to the borders of Russia.
These promises have been torn up with the acceptance for membership of Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and NATO are still in Afghanistan.
Russian intervention in Ukraine is a big ‘back off!!’ to the west.
To ignore it would be dangerous.
Is it any coincidence that the price of oil is as low as it is?
I think not.
Gumbridge. One question for you.
Why did all those former Warsaw Pact countries join NATO as fast as they possibly could?
Nobody forced them to join.
Mick Jordan_ I guess it was a case of the grass being greener on the other side.
They will soon learn their “mistake” once the jack boot takes over … again.
“When it collapsed Russia was given assurances that NATO would not seek to expand to the borders of Russia.”
That’s only partially true, the US assured Russia that NATO would not actively seek to incorporate former Warsaw Pact members into NATO. It was clear to all involved that former Warsaw Pact members would be accepted into NATO should they decide to apply for membership of their own free will without coercion by NATO.
Russian intervention in the Ukraine was not a warning to the west, it was an open admission of defeat. The Russians knew the Ukraine was slipping from their grasp and made a desperate land-grab to maintain control of Sevastopol.
Poland and the baltics in particular were poor choices to admit to the EU and NATO, since the Russian people have always seen these as their turf to do with as they wish.
Catch 22 I think, Most Ukrainians as a whole wants to be sided with the west and wants the Russians out and every nation is free to decide on their own policies and align to whomever they want to be aligned with, but Russian has a history with Ukraine that only these two can understand. I don;t think there is a right move on this one because both sides have a valid point
Juan. Yes history there. But Ukrainians are smart and educated. They have western TV and the Internet. It’s either earn 300pm and know the Russian puppet government is raping them
Or…
Move into Europe and in less then one generation have a massively improved quality of life. No brainer
Charles Here is a surprise. Russians and Ukrainians are ethnically the same people. They watch largely the same TV, Listen to the same popular music, read the same magazines and have the same kids cartoons and TV sitcoms.
I know this because I have been to both countries many times.
The Irish and English are same in many ways. Same language watch same shows. So they can come here and take us over no problem? ?:) cop on
Oh I’ve been there too many times mate.
” So they can come here and take us over no problem? ?:) cop on”
I never said this Charles.
You keep making assertions that Ukrainians are somehow enlightened and the Russians are a lazy bunch of ignorant subhumans.
I am pointing out that the Ukrainians and the Russians are the same people and are as good or bad as each other.
Your the racist Charles.
Obama and america are just useing nato to continually poke russia and putin with a stick till they get a war to make the rich more rich. Its just revenge for russia backing Syria against the usa.
NATO was originally set up as a defense force created to defend Western Europe from Communism and future wars, all this has completely changed and it has now become a bloodthirsty EXPANSIONIST offensive force that creates wars by proxy to push its greedy imperialist agendas.
David WW3 won’t make anyone rich. It will make us dead though.
It will certainly make the elitist’s rich and those that are pushing the buttons, they can sit in their arm chairs the far side of the Atlantic and watch Europe burn.
No doubt when it is over the usual US Contractors Halliburton & KBR. They reaped alone $138bn from Iraq war
Frank, the only thing they’ll see in their armchairs is the flash of of a nuclear explosion, anyone pushing buttons will annihilate mankind, at least modern civilization
Man, there were a lot of misinformed comments before frank at 38 mins, and some others came up. A few pointers for the misinformed. Do you know the Good ol USA spent 5 billion to overthrow the democratically elected government in Ukraine. Do you know the coup in February was openly led by nazi elements, who now have control. Do you know the Ukraine is a busted flush that will go down the tubes next may when Russia calls in the billions they are owed from ukraine. Do you know it would be gone down the tubes already except its on life support with billions of US and EU taxpayers so called loans but in reality donations, now think about it YOUR USC, PROPERTY TAX, WATER CHARGES etc being funnelled to a coup government led by fascist thugs by the same EU that’s ducking your country dry. Now why do you think they want to get into NATO ASAP?????
I think you are massively misinformed. But you already know that and I’m not biting :)
Your wrong but happy trolling xxxx
Charles Mcdonald What Denis Maher said is 100% true. The USA will make it back with Ukraine’s valuable resources.
Ukraine was once known as the “bread basket” of Europe, this will no doubt become the GMO trash can of Europe. .
The US is spending just as much again in its attempt to overthrow Syria’s legitimate Government.by backing head hacking militants.
Stupid dangerous act. The West needs to make it clear to the Ukraine that it will not back its I’ll conceived provocation and that it expects it to engage meaningfully with Russia.
What ill-conceived provocation? A sovereign nation is free to align itself with whatever alliance it so chooses. The Russians have already forcefully occupied and seized Ukrainian territory and it is perfectly understandable that the Ukraine would turn to Russia’s traditional opponent for future protection.
Jason Culligan You seem to have a short memory. Isn’t the Good old USA currently running amok tearing Russia’s ally Syria to shreds as we speak?
I also see USA meddling in CUBA, is this an attack on Russia from another front? How long will it be before an embassy is set up as a CIA headquarters. It won’t be long before Cuba will be run amok with terrorists.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/12/23/us-cuba-deal-new-front-for-russia-war-analyst.html
Charles Mcdonald
Everyone loved Obama in America at one time.
Everyone Loved Adolf Hitler in Germany at one time.
And the Godwin Award goes to…
Ww3 is building… Ah sure look when isint it…
If NATO is stupid enough to accept them then we have WW3
They are stupid and they want WW3.
# North American Terrorist Organisation,
Frank, you claimed before that we would have WW3 if the US dared to get involved in Syria. There are currently US Air Force and US Navy aircraft bombing Syria on a daily basis yet I haven’t seen your predicted WW3 materialise.
Mick, nobody doubts they were corrupt, the point is they were democratically elected and were overthrown, plain and simple. And yes he did flee to Russia after the false flag attack by hired mercenaries shot on maidan protesters & security forces. In respect of your so called fascist element there is nothing so called about it they openly wear nazi insignia, also they don’t care about how many % they got in an election they have control of the military now, that’s all any self respecting fascist needs. 20 years mick, make that 10, mostly going to the coffers of various “coloured revolutions” I suppose the yat’s our man comment victoria nuland was found on a recording saying before he was installed too those pesky Russians must be very sneaky the way they can get top level US government officials to say things like that to suit their propaganda as you allege.
There’s a reply button for a reason.
You’re spouting rhetoric which was basically debunked in the first couple of weeks of the Ukrainian Crisis. Would it hurt to do even a quick google search before you spout incredibly out-of-date non-arguments?
Like I said Denis. At least try and add some factual truth to your arguments. But you did a least drop the stupid 5 Billion argument. And you say you don’t care about what % the Right Wing parties got in the elections but yet your entire “Nazis” argument is about who has control of the government. So you attempt to completely dismiss the centrist make up of the Ukrainian Government and attempt (badly if I might add) portray the Russian version of the Ukrainian Government as a bunch of Extreme Right Wing Nationalists intent on exterminating the ethnic Russian population in the East of Ukraine. When the actual facts show the complete opposit of the propaganda you are attempting to push.
jason you can google right sector, Svoboda and Asov battalion right now if you want to see pictures of the far right militias in Ukraine.
They are not invisible, they are right there in the open ,shelling Eastern Ukrainians daily.
Also it’s blatantly obvious that Mick Jordan and Jason Culligan are the same person.
They just so happen to have the same opinion, reply to the same comments every time, and never address each other directly. (Sure why would you talk to yourself)
Nice try there Isaac. But Jason and I are completely different people. As a many on here know. Better luck next time.
I could just as easily claim that Glen, Frank, Horgay and Isaac are all the same person as you all seem to have the same opinion. If you even bothered to look deeper you’d see that myself and Mick have even disagreed with one another in discussions on topics not relating to the Ukraine.
As for the right-wing parties, nobody is denying that they have had a presence during this conflict. What is funny though is that you seem to completely ignore the fact that there are extreme right-wing elements fighting for the “rebels” as well. You also funnily don’t touch on the fact that all leaders of the “separatists” bar one just so happen to be Russian citizens and most have past Russian Army/KGB/FSB experience.
No frank is not Glen.
But I feel b lowe/horgay is Glen
So Jason when someone replied to Mick but forgot to use the reply button why would you reply with a smart comment ” There’s a reply button for a reason.?” and then respond to the question, posed to Mick.
Sure your not Mick now?
That’s your evidence, one off-the-cuff remark to someone who’s lack of understanding of how the Journal comments section works?
I could have sworn that a public forum is there for the explicit purpose of public discussions. I’m amazed that, under your bizarre interpretation of this system, questions addressed to one poster are the exclusive property of that one person to answer and the answering of said question by another poster is proof of a double account.
Come back when you have some actual proof rather than some tenuous and baseless accusations.
The heat has been turned up a notch on the Cold War
And the heat won’t be coming from Putin’s gas.
The table has turned, might have been a millimetrically premeditated tactic or an improvised consequence of Putin’s act, but either way, I don’t think Russia can’t use gas as a weapon any longer, their economy is being hit really hard, the Rubel lost half its value, they need that gas pipe on more than never, which means the Ukrainians and Europe have secured supply and Russia lost its leverage. Brilliant, touché!
The winter has also been remarkably mild for most of Europe meaning a shut-off of supply wouldn’t be as dramatic either. For the time being all Russia can do is huff and puff.
Does anybody still believe that the “western” economic model is still the only game in town?
Look at laws being passed on a daily basis in the EU to suppress its citizens.
Spain’s gagging laws are only the start.
What other game is there? ? Solalism? ? Yeah its working a charm for north Korea.
Or communism under lenonism or marxisim lol worked out well for good auld ussr.
Capitalism works. Reward those who take a chance in business. It will always be the way because the majority want it that way. The left are normally full of dole ridden wasters.
My oh my Charles, I suppose you must keep up with current affairs by reading the Sun.
Most them on here do.
Wasn’t it the SUN that accused Putin of downing MH17 before the smoke cleared from the crash site.
Denis. Your 5 Billion story have been debunked so many times now its become a joke. The 5 billion Dollars you talk of was give to all the Ukrainian Governments over the past 20+ years.
The so called Nazi elements you claim that are now in charge of Ukraine got less that 3% of the vote in the parliamentary elections and made up of less than a few thousand that were involved in the Maidan protests. And as a coup. What coup? The members of the democratically elected parliament (including the former presidents own party) voted to impeach him on corruption charges. But he resigned and fled to Russia with the billions he stole before the impeachment proceedings were completed. So as he resigned there could nother have been a coup.
So if you are going to try and spout Russian propaganda at least try and make it look factual with some actual truth.
A touch of bitterness their Isaac. Is it because you are watching your beloved New Russian Empire collapsing before your eyes?
Isaac, what about those who have fled Westwards due to the constant shelling by “separatists” and the fear of an outright invasion by Russia? What about those who fled Crimea when the Russian army jackbooted in and took control?
I can also use loaded questions and hyperbole.
I do not love any Russian Empire. But I do not hate Russian people or Ukrainian people. There a kids being killed here.
The difference between me and you is that I do not see things in black and white as you do.
I am not stuck in some 50′s US anti commie propaganda mind space as you are.
You see Russians as the bogey man out to get Uncle Sam. I see Russians as human beings, as I do Ukrainians. And both governments are using them against each other as pawns for some globalists political gains.
Isaac. If you want the fighting to stop then demand the the Russian military withdraw from all Ukrainian territory, that the Russians stop arming the terrorists and that the terrorists themselves surrender unconditionally to the legitimately elected government of Ukraine.
Agreed Mick. Also, the Ukrainians should stop shelling their own people and start to arrest and disarm Asov battalion and other right wing militias.
Jason life in Crimea is very good now I can assure you. The Tartars have their language recognised for the first time, their holy days are now Crimea wide holidays, the pensions and welfare has doubled, the salary of many has increased significantly.
I know many people there, including Tartars and Ukrainians who are much better off financially and socially.
Ukraine never gave a rats ass about Tartars or Crimea. It has not had any infrastructure investment since the 80′s. Now Russia is giving it the investment and upgrades it needs.
Some people fled due to paranoia and because some also had something to hide from the government ( crimes, terrorist associations etc).
A few hundred fled Crimea and 1 person was shot during the stand off.
700 thousand fled to Russia from East Ukraine.
About 30K fled to Kiev from East Ukraine.
About 50K fled to Crimea from East Ukraine.
Now ask yourself, why do the vast majority of people feel safer in Russia? Maybe they are running from the Ukrainian artillery thats leveling houses
Isaac. The Asov battalion wouldn’t exist without the Russian invasion. And if the Russians withdrew and the terrorists unconditionally surrendered the Asov battalion would no longer have any reason to continue.
And as for your claim that the Ukrainians are unilaterally shelling civilians can we have some independent verifiable proof of that claim?
Wrong Mick, the Far right groups including Asov have been well known trouble makers in Ukraine for years and years.
They worship their hero, the SS Nazi Banderos who turned on his own people and fought alongside hilter massacring Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians alike.
But sure you continue to defend them.
Issac you really are desperate to the “Ukrainian Nazis” story. Yet you ignore the many many Russian Nazis fighting along side the Ukrainian terrorists.
Why west wants Putin gone: “protect the interests of the native people of the Russian Federation, 1st & foremost.”
Putin- Immigration Issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ5MhU0lIeQ
have your say