Updated 8.45am
WARNINGS ARE BEING sounded over the future of some school subjects due to a shortage of teachers.
Fianna Fáil will tonight table a Private Members Bill that asks the Dáil to accept that “a real crisis exists” in the sector.
The party says that the demand for substitute teachers is vastly exceeding supply at both primary and second-level and that there is a major challenge for schools in finding teachers with the right subject mixes.
The party’s Education spokesperson Thomas Byrne says that the issue will have serious ramifications in physics and Irish.
“Ongoing pay inequality has resulted in a recruitment and retention crisis for teachers and there are also major difficulties for schools in securing substitute teachers when required.”
While Byrne claimed that there are just six physics teachers expected to graduate in the next two years, this morning the Department of Education said that there are 21 people training to be physics teachers on a PME course. It said that there are also students training as science teachers on undergraduate courses. Last year, there were 467 students training to be science teachers.
But Byrne said that “the Minister continues to ignore the problem” of teacher numbers and that there is a “massive shortage” with physics teacher numbers.
Byrne’s stance is backed by TUI President Joanne Irwin, who said:
“All education stakeholders now acknowledge that there is an unprecedented crisis in the recruitment and retention of teachers. However, it is regrettable in the extreme, and foolish, that the government is still refusing to acknowledge or commit to the only guaranteed cure.
Over recent months, there have been various suggestions of measures to attract teachers to particular subject areas, many of which would set a dangerous precedent of prioritising particular subjects based on the perceived and short-term needs of industry at a given moment in time. Most of these measures are no more than gimmicks and have not been fully thought out.
“Rather than solving the recruitment and retention crisis, some could exacerbate an already dire situation. What they would cost would be better used in accelerating the process of pay equalisation.
“While there are currently pronounced shortages in the Irish, modern languages, Home Economics and STEM areas, a focus on incentivising specific subject areas would be equivalent to rearranging furniture on the deck of a fast-sinking ship.”
However, despite those claims, Education Minister Richard Bruton will table a counter-motion which aims to welcome government moves in the sector, such as the recruitment of 5,000 extra teachers and the equalisation of pay scales.
A spokesperson for the Department of Education said that teaching was “an attractive career”.
“In general there have been no issues with recruiting extra teachers.
“We have stepped up the recruitment of teachers. Over 5,000 extra teachers (net) have been hired since Minister Bruton was appointed, almost 2,400 in primary schools and just over 2,850 in post primary schools. All of these positions have been filled or will be filled very shortly.
“We have improved conditions for teachers, by reducing the qualifying period for CIDs (contracts of indefinite duration) and by changing how posts are filled in schools thus making it easier for part-time or fixed-term teachers to get permanent, full-time jobs.
“There has been no decrease in numbers graduating from teacher education programmes, the numbers across all programmes – undergraduate and post graduate have remained steady over the past five years.”
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
An attractive career? 5 years in university, degree and masters, with a starting salary of 31,000 doesn’t sound too bad. But after 10 years you’re on 41,000 with little chance of any middle management position. Name me any other profession where a person with a masters and 10 years experience wood be on 41,000.
@Stan Stynes: one where they work more.
The pay is reflective of the hours/days worked I thought? If you deducted 2-3 months pay from people in other industries with the same level of qualifications and experience I doubt you’d end up with much over 41k
@Padraic Burke: way to be specific
@Padraic Burke: Bless your innocence, ignorance is bliss!
@Stan Stynes: biomedical scientist. Hospital lab staff are on ridiculously low salaries too considering the undergrad was 5 now 4 years and the MSc is two years.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: good woman thanks.
@Graham: no need it’s all said there.
@Brian O’Loughlin: Bottom line is simple. Do you think that quality people with a masters will consider a career that pays 41k after 10 years? Now a question. Do you want a quality person teaching your children?
@Brian O’Loughlin: Or should the pay reflect the value of the job. South Korean teachers are paid the same as doctors and Finland pays them 150% of the average graduates salary. Now guess who tends to come out on top in OECD Education rankings.
@Stan Stynes: You forgot a healthy grinds market at your doorstep to increase that salary dramatically , a gold plated pension & superb holidays. This is a big part of the reason people teach in the first place – the lifestyle.
@saitek: also 41k is a decent salary if you live outside the major cities where house prices are lower. Also the work you can pick up at summer school. Also you don’t have to pay child care costs once your child starts school. I always found it amazing that my school teacher friends had their kids in September, just so they don’t waste maternity leave during the summer holidays
@saitek: a couple both teachers…10 years in so early mid thirties…combined income 82k. Look what 195k can buy you.
4 beds 3 bathrooms etc etc
touch.daft.ie/sligo/houses-for-sale/ballymote/ballinacarriga-ballymote-sligo-13046
@Mary Murphy: having said all that…we cannot deny market forces. Most of my career I was in an unpleasant job….but I put up with it because the pay was good. So looks like we need to pay Physics teachers in Dublin a lot more.
@Mary Murphy: 41K is not alot compared to what these people could make in other professions with similar qualifications. The is not an abstract point. I think arts in NUIG last year was down from around 410 out of a possible 600 max when I did the leaving to around 260 out of a max of 640 now. Quality of people going into teaching has greatly reduced as has the numbers. I have a Masters and live down the country and am on alot more than 41K as is everyone else I know with similar qualifications….. except teachers, the majority of which as still looking for permanent work in their 30s….. and making do with a few hours here and there…
@Stan Stynes: get over the Masters thing they mean nothing. Plenty people with Masters working in rubbish jobs. If these teachers had a proper brain they wouldn’t have done an “intelligent” Masters degrees then work in teaching. Surely they’d analyse before doing and see it’s if no benefit financially. So don’t mosn about known knowns.
@Michael Carty: I need to get me to the countryside and marry a culchie with a masters. Let’s say we both make 60k each imagine the house (mortgage)we could get for 420k. Way better than a 3 bed semi in Dublin suburbs
@Mary Murphy: Thats why I commute to the big smoke every day and dont complain. Its the choice I made. Some other friends of mine prefer to be n Dublin with mad rents……Not me
@Mary Murphy: which is why many teachers are looking to get out of Dublin. New teachers salaries aren’t sustainable to living in Dublin or urban areas NQTs salaries aren’t matching with inflation and inflated rent.
@6ljJQRRU: *than
@Stan Stynes: 42k for 7months work per annum. Equivalent to nearly 80k a year
@Brian O’Loughlin: three months summer holidays, two weeks at Christmas, three mid term breaks and circa 6 HR days. No chance of being sacked.
@Michael Carty: physics teacher don’t need a master’s and generally have a pass degree or 2;2. Basically useless in industry.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: nope – then. than is a completely different word! Hope you’re not one of these people who don’t know the difference between then and than and then (correct) decide to give out incorrectly about it!.
@Al Coholic: they need their masters in education, still a masters, just not an industry relevant one.
@Brendan Gordon: bullshite course
@Al Coholic: Afraid they do need a Masters in Education if they want to teach, as do all new teachers. All teachers need a base degree and a Masters in Education
This headline is simply UNTRUE! They are not accounting for students studying concurrent science education in dcu and UL. But there is a shortage of teachers, which could be easily fixed by paying them properly! At the moment, there is money and adventure to be had abroad! The will to fix it isn’t there. And before anyone mentions holidays, the dail are just back from theirs!
Why work in an industry where there is over reliance on short term contracts or substitute work. TDs having their teaching jobs held open for decades. It needs fixing.
Well if they made teaching a viable career path then there’d be no problem, eh…
8 years teaching, in a shortage area, 2 Masters degrees and no permanency, only a 15 hour a week contract and having to change school every year. So I joined the private sector – permanent after 6 months, regular wages, 90% less stress. It’s a no-brainer. It’s sad because I loved teaching and was actually good at it but the system wore me out.
The usual ‘chip on the shoulder’, ‘I was in a classroom twenty years ago’ experts will be out with glib remarks on holidays and doing nothing. If that was the case would there be shortages? If it’s so easy why are people turning away from the profession?
There will be no comments from them on how to get people into the job, like bringing back roles of responsibility and qualification bonuses. That’s just to even compete with other countries. If people want motivated, knowledgeable people to work in an area where there is growing behaviour, SEN and mental health issues, along with subject challenges, then pay and conditions need to be improved. Education is how we improve this country and motivated educators and role models are needed now more than ever.
Research and industry tend to have better prospects for carving out careers, while for school teachers it’s been going downhill. It needs a rethink.
Universities, research institutions and tech businesses should work together with schools and have their workers earn teaching qualifications so they can teach one or two days a week.
It’ll allow workers to get out of the rut and do something else part of the time, and the institutions to see to it that they have future employees. Knowledge needs to be passed on, so it’d be win-win.
Pay peanuts, get monkies, but it seems even the monkies aren’t interested in these terms and conditions
@Michael Carty: recruit the leftovers the private don’t want deserve peanuts
@Al Coholic: Your logic is deeply flawed and shows a lack of understanding. Most teachers prefer a department paid post with all the benefits they have over a private sector teaching post
@Michael Carty: your understanding of my post is deeply flawed. I meant most couldn’t cut it in any private sector role
Lots of teachers have gone abroad. Better pay ,much less tax.Yet we have some TD,s wanting to increase paye.
Will those qualifying physics teachers be guaranteed permanent jobs, probably not. In UK I think there is a scholarship to attract physics and chemistry graduates into teaching, you got your teacher training paid
There is no doubt that the drop in males entering the profession has lead to the drop In a spread of teachers across disciplines.
I doubt pay is the reason that only six people are training to be physics teachers! out of my kids ty class of 30, only one wants to study physics in 5th year. one! It’s the subject that the problem or rather the way it’s being taught. There’s no life in any of those science teacher sure, in my experience. They’d hardly inspire anyone to the field.
@Missyb211: Suppose its the same for Irish, French, English and Maths is it?
@Missyb211: yeah that’s just in that school, we have great interest in physics in our school, and probably many others. I am a Home Economics teachers and it’s far from true to say there is little interest. We have huge uptake of it and the same in many other schools.
@Breda Jennings:
Home Ec is my son’s favorite subject in 5th year
@Missyb211: The problem isn’t with how physics is taught, it’s how maths and science is treated right down to primary level by teachers and parents, combined with a lack of integration of real computer science. Kids who want to do physics have the fear of god put into them about how difficult it’s going to be.
@Brendan Gordon: Spot on.
@Brendan Gordon: You’re right but it’s a combination of all these things. I only picked on one but I could write an essay.
There was a good article in The Examiner recently about the concept of allowing foreign nationals with teaching degrees to be allowed to upskill/teach in schools in Ireland. Physics is Physics and why not have someone from another country who is legally resident in the country teach these courses? Could be a viable option…
Bruton is the biggest codologist in the government after that eejit Ross. He wants Ireland to have the best education system in Europe in 2025 yet won’t accept that there is a chronic lack of teachers in the country due to unequal pay so teachers are leaving in their droves. He says this week that there isn’t a severe shortage yet last week he said that he wants teachers to come home and fill positions. He’s a flip flopping chameleon of the highest order wrapped up in a suit!
At the ASTI conference In Wexford 2014 I told then minister for Education that he was destroying education with his cuts and the changes teachers were being asked to deal with in working conditions.For students too he was proposing no exam for the Junior cycle.I told him he was destroying the futures of young people.His cuts to counselling I told him were putting the lives of young people at risk.I told him he was the worst education minister there ever was.Minister Quinn’s changes increased bookwork and unnecessary paper work preventing teachers from actually teaching .Thats where it stands to day.With the large pay cuts teaching took a huge hit.Yes I was a person who shouted my disgruntlement at Ruairi Quinn while he spoke.It was the only way I could get my message across to him
@Live at Oriel: I want to make it clear that along with a group of guidance counsellors I had tried to meet him about the cuts.He would not do so.I did what I had to do in Wexford as I had to get my misgivings across to him and it was the only way.Teachers are under enormous pressure these days and it’s not surprising young graduates won’t enter the profession while at the other end older teachers are taking early retirement .Of course it’s not all Ruairi Quinn’s fault but his term as minister still haunts education
Gerry Malone Dundalk
It is the same for all STEM subjects and will only get worse in the future. 95% of people that want to be a teacher are doing it for the handiness and will “teach” English and Religion or CSPE or some other tripe like that – these technical subjects are dying a slow, painful death.
Teach physics through the medium of Xbox games animation design – kids aren’t that excited by bunsen burners, ice and weighing scales these days.
@alphanautica: Animation is maths more than physics and game physics itself is a horrible fudge. Also both topics are mid to late stage university classes. School is for dealing with fundamentals.
And the second law of thermodynamics rears it’s beautiful head.
If our incompetent teacher politicians went back to what they were trained to do, it might solve the problem and free up space in the dail for more competent and qualified people to do better jobs in running the country properly.
Their college qualifications prepared them for teaching, not politics, and I doubt very much these courses covered things like economics finance and management, which is probably why we currently have the gombeen politics.
Supply and demand.If you are good at maths and physics then there are plenty of interesting and lucrative career options that you can go into – researcher, engineer, computer programmer etc, not necessarily true for someone with a History or English degree Therefore pay physics teachers more – or any other teacher with skills in short supply. Of course the teacher unions won’t allow that.
When you cut peoples pay they will leave and go where the pay is better Where is Eddie Hobbs when you need him
Experimental physics is fine and really entertaining for students when it comes to engineering however the celebrity theorists following from the late 17th century Royal Society tried to incorporate astronomy into experimental science as the ‘universal theory of gravitation’ which in turn forms the basis of the laws of nature/physics/motion/ gravity and things like that.
Technically and historically it is really a bright shining lie as it tries to impose analogies like a falling apple at an experimental level to large scale motions like the orbital motion of the planets -
“Rule III. The qualities of bodies, which admit neither [intensification] nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.” Newton
I flicked though the channels last night and found a programme from a celebrity theorist called ‘The Grand Design’ where he announced via the ‘laws of nature’ that there is no God, there was a beginning to Time, that space is finite and he basically threw the kitchen sink at creation before he went on to denounce those things that are Eternal and Infinite. Who would want to teach a topic with such anti-inspirational and anti-intellectual junk ?.
No shortage of religion teachers though.
“A brief history of Crime”?
have your say