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LAST UPDATE | 18 Nov 2024
RTÉ HOSTED ITS largest ever leaders’ debate tonight, with ten TDs taking part in an extended edition of Upfront with Katie Hannon.
Here’s how it played out:
Updates from Daragh Brophy and Jane Matthews (at RTÉ), factchecking by Stephen McDermott.
Good evening and welcome to our live coverage of tonight’s televised leaders’ debate.
This evening’s extended edition of Upfront with Katie Hannon is the first to two debates being hosted by RTÉ.
Leaders of ten parties currently represented in the Dáil will take part.
There’ll be a three-way debate between the leaders of the largest parties – Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and Fine Gael – on Tuesday of next week.
It all kicks off in Montrose tonight at 9.35pm.
If you’re wondering what we’re all doing here at barely gone half seven when I just said the debate is on after half nine…
Well, the various leaders are due to arrive at the RTÉ main entrance over the next hour or so – our Political Correspondent Jane Matthews is there to cover the arrivals (you can follow Jane on X here).
As we wait for the politicians to brave the cameras (and the cold), here’s a reminder of the lineup for tonight’s debate:
The leaders are starting to arrive.
First of the party leaders to arrive in RTÉ for the leaders debate is Independent Ireland’s Michael Collins.
— Jane Matthews (@janeematthews) November 18, 2024
He says his focus in this election is cost of living and calling out and cutting down government waste. @thejournal_ie pic.twitter.com/YijHK6hKvK
And next up is Aontú leader Peadar Toibín.
— Jane Matthews (@janeematthews) November 18, 2024
He’s also focused on government waste in his comments, telling reporters he wants to see it written into the contracts of all senior civil servants that they are responsible for the public purse. pic.twitter.com/6qgRUb8nf7
Jane Matthews reports from RTÉ:
We’ve had five leaders in the door now.
Arriving after Michael Collins and Peader Toibín, Joan Collins (no relation to Michael) of Right to Change said she was hoping her “small intervention” could change the fundamental discussion around things like health and public housing.
Richard Boyd Barrett of Solidarity-People Before Profit said the idea that we will “just have FF and FG forever is demoralising”.
He added:
“I believe things can change, I believe people want them to change … but we need a government that represents the majority of working people and the young and the vulnerable.”
Next to arrive was Labour leader Ivana Bacik, who said that up until now the election has been dominated by a “contrived conflict” between FF and FG. She added that she believes this has been disrespectful to voters and focus should be returned to core issues.
A relaxed-looking Mary Lou McDonald just arrived.
“This evening I will make the case strongly for a new departure in Irish life – a government led by a party other than Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.”
She even spoke a little French on the way in to greet a crew from TV station France 24, who are covering events tonight alongside Irish outlets.
And Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has arrived.
— Jane Matthews (@janeematthews) November 18, 2024
On the criticism of SF not yet publishing its manifesto, she says:
“I think much of that criticism was coming from people who actually were looking to cog our homework and steal our policies.” pic.twitter.com/JV2OjlEYSM
The fallout from yesterday’s Sunday Times story in which farmer Breen White, who was involved in an altercation outside a pub with Fine Gael’s John McGahon, shared pictures of his injuries continued to dominate political headlines earlier on today.
McGahon – a sitting senator – is running for a seat in Louth.
Simon Harris has been defending McGahon’s position on the ticket amid mounting criticism.
Though he was acquitted in a 2022 criminal trial of assault causing harm, McGahon was ordered this summer by the High Court to pay White €39,000 after the Castleblayney man sued the senator for assault and battery.
The jury found White had been assaulted and awarded €60,000, including €10,000 for aggravated damages. It apportioned blame at 65% against McGahon and the other 35% against the farmer.
A video of the incident has been circulated widely on social media.
Taoiseach Simon Harris previously described what happened as “a scuffle” and said McGahon was remorseful.
Answering a question from The Journal’s Christina Finn at an event today, Martin said “it was anything but a scuffle”.
“I presume the Taoiseach hasn’t seen that video, but it was anything but a scuffle, it was vicious,” said Martin.
Speaking on the way into the debate this evening, McDonald called on Harris to properly address the issue.
“I don’t think thus far he has answered the question as regards Senator John McGahon. And look – all I can tell you is this, if that occurred within my party I would take a decisive action and there would be consequences, and Senator McGahon would not be on the general election ticket.”
Bacik also called on Harris to issue a statement and clarify his position on McGahon.
The Taoiseach will be arriving shortly so we’ll see if he has anything to add to his remarks from earlier today on the campaign trail in Kilkenny.
SocDems deputy leader Cian O’Callaghan is filling in for Holly Cairns tonight, as his party leader is expecting a baby … well, literally any day now.
Cairns is continuing to lead her party’s campaign from West Cork.
O’Callaghan – who’s hoping to retain his seat in a competitive Dublin Bay North constituency this month – said he’s looking forward to the debate and that subsitutions like this should become much more normal in politics when senior party leaders are pregnant.
SocDem’s deputy leader Cian O’Callaghan, who is filling in for party leader Holly Cairns tonight, says he is looking forward to the debate and says this should become much more normal in politics where senior party leaders are pregnant. pic.twitter.com/Mt0gKg9lAm
— Jane Matthews (@janeematthews) November 18, 2024
Harris is continuing to back McGahon to the hilt.
Hitting back at earlier comments from Mary Lou McDonald, he told reporters:
“Her press officer is in prison tonight for being a pedophile, John McGahon was found not guilty by a criminal court.”
The Taoiseach was referring to the jailing earlier this month of former Sinn Féin press officer Michael McMonagle, who was sentenced to nine months in prison for child sex offences.
On her way in, Mary Lou McDonald was asked about John McGahon still being on the FG ticket, her comments were put to Taoiseach Simon Harris who responded: “her press officer is in prison tonight for being a pedophile, John McGahon was found not guilty by a criminal court.” pic.twitter.com/tbNCCi4vKe
— Jane Matthews (@janeematthews) November 18, 2024
Jane Matthews reports from RTÉ:
All the leaders have now arrived.
Greens leader Roderic O’Gorman was also asked about the John McGahon controversy on is way in.
“Probably not, no,” The Dublin West TD said, when asked if McGahon would still be on the ticket if he was in the Green Party.
Last in the door was Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin – he didn’t linger for long but did take the opportunity to have a pop at Sinn Féin for not yet publishing their manifesto (they’re due to do so tomorrow – as are the SocDems).
We mentioned earlier on that McDonald tried out a little French on her way in, by way of greeting a camera crew from France 24.
In case you were wondering what it was she said, according to my newsroom colleague David MacRedmond, it was “autre fois” – so she was essentially saying “here we go again”.
And Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has arrived.
— Jane Matthews (@janeematthews) November 18, 2024
On the criticism of SF not yet publishing its manifesto, she says:
“I think much of that criticism was coming from people who actually were looking to cog our homework and steal our policies.” pic.twitter.com/JV2OjlEYSM
Perhaps grateful not to be in the spotlight himself, RTÉ Director-General Kevin Bakhurst was waiting in the wings to greet the debate participants this evening.
Just a few minutes now till we go live.
With ten politicians – none whom are exactly shrinking violents – in the studio, it could well be a messy affair.
So what’s likely to happen?
Expect Simon Harris to come under continued pressure for his stance on John McGahon; expect Harris, Martin and O’Gorman to back each other up as they defend the government’s record on housing; expect the government party leaders in particular to hammer McDonald for the various controveries her party has been battling in the run up to the campaign; and expect Katie Hannon to do her level best not to blow a fuse keeping them all in check.
See you after the ads.
“We’ll put them through their paces while they try and convince you to trust them with your vote.”
Hannon introduces tonight’s debate.
Hannon explains that the TDs drew lots earlier to decide studio positions in advance of tonight’s debate.
Harris and O’Gorman are closest to the centre – with McDonald and Collins (Joan) at the edges of the lineup.
The John McGahon controversy is our first topic.
Harris is asked whether he had seen the video of the altercation McGahon was involved in when he described what happened as a “scuffle”.
The Fine Gael leader said he had not, then again backed McGahon position on the ticket.
It’s at least the third time today Harris has had to face media questions on the issue - on the way into the debate he took the opportunity to take a swipe at Sinn Féin as he said McGahon had been democratically selected to contest the election for his party.
Prospective coalition partnerships have dominated the first fifteen minutes of the debate – no big surprises from any of the TDs on the stage.
The further-left leaders like Joan Collins and Richard Boyd Barrett said there’s no way they’d prop up a FF-FG government.
Harris and Martin, in turn, ruled out working with Sinn Féin.
Our FactCheck Editor Stephen McDermott is on duty tonight to assess the TDs’ claims and help separate the fact from the fiction.
He writes:
“The first big claim of the night comes from Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin, who said that Sinn Féin opposed Ireland’s entry into European Union and has opposed every European treaty since.
“While he’s correct to say Sinn Féin opposed entry into the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1973 and five subsequent treaties voted on in the Republic of Ireland, it does not account for Sinn Féin’s campaigning on the Brexit referendum in the UK in 2016, when the party called for Britain to remain in the EU.”
While there were no major surprises in any of the contributions on prospective coalition partners, this answer from Labour’s Ivana Bacik has provoked some chatter on X.
The Dublin TD appeared to indicate she might not be able to get along with any of the three big parties…
"We have significant policy differences in Labour with the three biggest parties."
— Upfront with Katie Hannon (@RTEUpfront) November 18, 2024
Labour's Ivana Bacik says she will first speak to centre-left parties about potential coalitions.#rteupfront | @RTENews pic.twitter.com/yevejDitFQ
Independent Ireland’s Michael Collins however said he wouldn’t rule out – or in – anybody.
Not that they put it in quite the same terms, O’Callaghan of the SocDems and O’Gorman of the Greens pretty much said the same thing.
"I can see huge differences between me and certain parties, but at the same time I'm not going to rule out, or rule in, who we're going to go with..."
— Upfront with Katie Hannon (@RTEUpfront) November 18, 2024
Independent Ireland's Michael Collins on involvement in a future coalition.#rteupfront | @RTENews pic.twitter.com/Iqv9oodB6Y
The Leinster House bike shed and the National Children’s Hospital being debated now.
Simon Harris decides to take issue with the host’s statement that he had “signed the contract” for the hospital in a slightly bizarre detour as the segment started – saying it was a government decision.
Peader Toibín of Aontú makes several interruptions to take the Taoiseach to task over the delays in the hospital’s construction in particular.
Harris says, essentially, that the hospital will be worth it once it eventually opens … and the debate moves on.
A very brief segment on the various controversies faced by McDonald and Sinn Féin … McDonald reiterates her position and then the apology she gave in the Dáil earlier this month.
Harris interjects – but a further effort to join in from O’Gorman is ruled out as Hannon needs to move on with the programme.
The limitations of this ten-way format are really beginning to show … TDs are given only short answers on whether the country needs a statutory Covid inquiry, with Toibín hurried to a conclusion when he raises issues in nursing homes.
The debate is getting more than a little frustrating.
“I’m so close to flicking back over to I’m a Celeb,” is the take of one of our reporters (who shall remain nameless).
(Don’t worry, they’re not on the clock at the moment)
Our FactCheck Editor Stephen McDermott has been examining some of Harris’s claims about the children’s hospital:
“There were a couple of claims from Simon Harris about the National Children’s Hospital – including that he wasn’t born when it was first discussed, that the Government were told that changing or stopping the project would have been more expensive, and that the total cost of the hospital will be the equivalent of six months of the Pandemic Unemployment payment.
“The consolidation of Ireland’s three children’s hospitals into one facility was first proposed by the Faculty of Paediatrics at the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland in 1993 – seven years after Simon Harris was born.
“In terms of the possible savings of stopping the project, a report by PwC in 2019 did find that there would be no cost savings in terms of stopping the project (though it should be noted then that costs were expected to be €1.7 billion, when they are now more than €2.2 billion).
“And the cost of six months’ worth of the Pandemic Unemployment Payment? The overall cost of the PUP between March 2020 and March 2024 was €9.2 billion, so six months of that would cost 2.3 billion (so in and around the current projected cost of the hospital).
Here’s a clip from a few minutes ago of McDonald taking on the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael leaders over the price of fuel.
The exchange is indicative of how this debate has been going whenever the leaders of the three main parties are featured – Martin and Harris appear to be largely singing from the same hymn sheet, as they team up to tackle McDonald.
If Martin and Harris were hoping to put some distance between each others’ positions tonight, they’ve done little on that front so far – the fact that they’re set up right next to each other on the stage isn’t helping too much either.
"The outgoing government have put 12 euros on the tank of fuel..." says Mary Lou McDonald.
— Upfront with Katie Hannon (@RTEUpfront) November 18, 2024
"You're not proposing to reverse it, are you? You have baked in using the carbon tax in your budgetary plans..." responds Simon Harris.#rteupfront | @RTENews pic.twitter.com/jdRZxMEhEi
We’re about to come back from the ad break
If you’re just tuning in, this tweet pretty much sums up the night so far.
Literally the whole country right now - #RTEUpfront pic.twitter.com/fxwhSdcMbx
— Róisín Loughrey (@roisinloughrey) November 18, 2024
A few more claims from the last 20 minutes or so being examined here by Stephen:
“Micheál Martin said that inflation went as high as 10%. However, the CSO’s Consumer Price Index peaked at 9.1% in August 2022 (which was a 38-year high), before gradually falling again.
“In fairness to Martin, the EU’s Harmonised Index of Consumer Prices had inflation at 9.6% in July 2022, which I suppose you could round up to 10%…”.
“At one point, People Before Profit’s Richard Boyd-Barrett claimed that the ESB posted a billion Euro in profits in the first half of this year. However, the Business Post reported in September that operating profits at ESB group were actually €446 million for the first six months to June 2024.”
If you’ve been wondering what the chances were of Harris and Martin being allocated podiums next to each other … Virgin Media’s Gavan Reilly has done the maths.
There was about a 1-in-6 chance of Martin and Harris being allocated podiums beside each other, and a 2.2% chance of them being right beside Katie
— Gavan Reilly (@gavreilly) November 18, 2024
The parties have been digging into their established positions on green issues over the last few minutes.
"Why don't we tax the big polluters, the corporate polluters?"
— Upfront with Katie Hannon (@RTEUpfront) November 18, 2024
"It's not either-or, Richard..."
Ivana Bacik and Richard Boy Barrett clash over the carbon tax. pic.twitter.com/l5yZPBYEaF
Stephen has been factchecking a claim by O’Callaghan, of the SocDems, on the Climate Action Plan:
“O’Callaghan said a few minutes ago that if every step in the plan was implemented, Ireland still wouldn’t meet its emission target reductions – saying they would only add up to a 29% reduction in emissions when we need to meet a 51% reduction.
“Those figures are correct, and come from projections calculated by the Environmental Protection Agency.”
A segment on the Occupied Territories Bills ends with McDonald and Boyd Barrett locking horns with Martin and Harris over the government’s lack of progress on the bill.
Introducing the issue, Hannon had asked for answers from each leader on whether they would back progressing the bill in its current form.
Joan Collins, Cian O’Callaghan and Michael Collins all answered in the affirmative – as did the rest of the panel. Martin and Harris offered a number of qualifications but said they would back it (Martin reiterated that the bill needed to be as robust as possible so it can withstand challenge).
Boyd Barrett accused the Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil leaders of “speaking out of both sides of your mouths” on the issue.
“You had five years to pass it and you didn’t,” he said.
You had a year of genocide and you didn’t pass it … The doublespeak of this coalition … is shocking.
Harris, responding, insisted that “this country is united on the issue of Palestine” before McDonald accused him of “bottling it” by not being stronger on the issue of Palestine with US President Joe Biden during his recent visit to Washington.
"No sanctions..." laments Mary Lou McDonald, on the issue of Israel and Palestine.
— Upfront with Katie Hannon (@RTEUpfront) November 18, 2024
"You're more interested in exploiting the issue for political gain..." says Micheál Martin.
"You're trying to divide this country," Simon Harris says of the SF leader.#rteupfront | @RTENews pic.twitter.com/8hj04cJX7O
Our FactCheck department (well, still just Stevie this evening) has been taking a look at McDonald’s claim on carbon tax earlier on:
“The Sinn Féin leader said that despite an annual €7.50 hike in the tax since 2021, petrol and diesel consumption have gone up.
“The EPA’s annual report on emissions for 2023 (the last year for which data is available) show that although total use of petrol increased by 6.6% last year – but that diesel consumption fell by 1.2%.
“Petrol and diesel usage both increased year-on-year in 2022, though this can partly be attributed to greater movement coming out of the Covid pandemic.
“Curiously, McDonald;s claim in this instance was more nuanced than her claim to the Irish Farmers’ Association last week that the carbon tax had not led to a reduction in emissions at all (a claim The Journal fact-checked and rated false).”
"The outgoing government have put 12 euros on the tank of fuel..." says Mary Lou McDonald.
— RTÉ One (@RTEOne) November 18, 2024
"You're not proposing to reverse it, are you? You have baked in using the carbon tax in your budgetary plans..." responds Simon Harris.#rteupfront | @RTENews pic.twitter.com/ygzV6lTkU3
Amid criticism from the opposition party leaders on solutions to the housing crisis, Simon Harris defended plans to boost supports for first-time buyers.
Fine Gael’s pledged last week to hike Help to Buy grants by a third to €40,000 and to expand the First Homes shared equity scheme to second-hand property. Fianna Fáil has also said it wants to “protect and extend” Help to Buy.
The proposals have come in for criticism from some housing market analysts, with Lorcan Sir of TU Dublin calling them “classic auction politics”.
More bad tempered scenes as Harris and McDonald argued over Sinn Féin’s housing plans – the pair were talking over each other as Hannon attempted to move the programme on and cut to a break.
It was, arguably, an odd move to leave housing until this late into the debate when most of the country is, frankly, asleep (it is, after all, Monday 18 November – peak ‘school night’ surely?).
Micheál Martin responds to criticism from Cian O'Callaghan of the Social Democrats and others on Fianna Fail's housing record.
— Upfront with Katie Hannon (@RTEUpfront) November 18, 2024
"What we need in housing is more supply," he says.
"They're building stuff nobody can afford," says Richard Boyd Barrett.#rteupfront | @RTENews pic.twitter.com/BJtgezRWan
Immigration being dealt with now (surely we must be in the final stretch of the show – we’re at least ten minutes over the listed time at this stage?)
Roderic O’Gorman defends the government’s handling of the issue, and in particular the decision to extend benefits to Ukrainians after the outbreak of the war in 2022.
Mary Lou McDonald says the international protection system in particular is too slow and that there’s been “chaos” in government on the issue.
Hannon gives each of the TDs a chance to sum up their arguments.
Joan Collins of Right to Change calls for voters to back a left-led government.
O’Callaghan says the SocDems’s coalition red line issues include housing and childcare.
Michael Collins of Independent Ireland asks voters to back his candidates and says they represent “a real break from the past”.
Micheál Martin says voters can rely on Fianna Fáil amid turbulent times and promises action on housing.
Simon Harris says that he’s shown the energy and focus he’d bring to a new government over his, so far, seven months as Taoiseach.
Roderic O’Gorman says the Green Party has delivered in government and that Ireland is now a “climate leader”.
Peadar Toibín notes that Aontú was the only party to stand against the government’s “failed referendums” and calls on voters to concentrate their votes on his candidates.
Labour’s Ivana Bacik calls for voters to back a “fairer, more equal Ireland” and says Labour would raise wages and deliver a public childcare system.
Richard Boyd Barrett says ordinary working people are under pressure and calls on voters to back an alternative to Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.
Mary Lou McDonald says the election is “the opportunity of a lifetime” and that housing is their number one priority. The party, she said, is ready to implement its plans on day one.
And that’s it.
Upfront will be debating immigration next week, Hannon tells viewers as she signs off.
Martin, Harris and McDonald will debate each other on Prime Time tomorrow week.
Some last quickfire points from Stevie on factchecking duty, before I also sign off:
“Two claims on the Government’s housing record from Aontú’s Peadar Tóibín, both of which can be found from data collated in Census 2022.
“He said that 500,000 adults are living with their parents, which is correct – and an understatement: according to the CSO, 522,486 adults aged 18 years and over were living with their parents on Census night, up by 63,612 from the last Census in 2016.
“Tóibín also said that there are 100,000 empty homes in the State. According to the 2022 census, there were 163,433 vacant homes in Ireland, excluding holiday homes – so another understatement by Tóibín.”
“Earlier, People Before Profit’s Richard Boyd-Barrett claimed that public transport was now free in 100 countries in the world. This isn’t the case – while public transport is free in places like Luxembourg, Malta and Talinn (the capital of Estonia), it’s likely that he mis-spoke and that he meant 100 cities in the world.
“And a final one on housing – Micheál Martin claimed that the Government has exceeded its targets under Housing For All. Although the Government exceeded its targets in 2022 and 2023, the first two years of the housing plan, it fell short of its targets for social and afforadble housing in both years, and only reached its targets because the private market (which the Government does not control) made up the balance.”
And that’s it from this liveblog – we’ll have more coverage of the debate on the main site shortly!
Good night.
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Monsters in the making….
Is could have been another James bulger case
Lucky escape from these demons !
Name and shame them .. Never mind this protecting them malarkey .. If they want to do an adult crime then they should do adult time
They aren’t adults though. Do you not see how that works?
A cautionary tale of the demonic temptations that lurk on the internet. Evil ideas and suggestions can easily attack the minds of young and old people.
Porn is not to blame for bad behaviour. The science shows porn is NOT harmful. If you’re of the feminist persuasion and believe it’s derogatory etc. then fair enough but the facts are… Michael Castleman M.A. Michael Castleman M.A. All About Sex Does Pornography Cause Social Harm? Porn causes no measurable social harm. Posted Apr 27, 2009 Many people feel offended by pornography. Those who find it odious have every right to their opinion. But some porn-haters declare that X-rated material does more than just disgust them. They contend that it contributes to significant social harm. In The Porn Trap (2008), psychotherapists Wendy and Larry Maltz assert that it’s a significant factor in sexual irresponsibility and divorce. Advertisement The late feminist activist, Andrea Dworkin, argued that by depicting women as men’s willing sexual playthings, porn contributes to rape. Her disciple, Robert Jensen, writes: “pornography alone doesn’t make men rape…[but] it may activate coercive tendencies.” And porn critic Diana Russell argues that porn undermines men’s inhibitions against rape and spurs some to commit it. Strong accusations. But are they true? The advent of Internet porn provides surprising answers. The Internet became a major force in everyday life in the late 1990s. Before then, porn was available in adult stores, through X-rated video rentals, and on some newsstands. But with the arrival of the Internet, porn availability exploded. It was just a click away 24-7 for free in tens of millions of homes and offices. In 1997, 16 percent of American adults used the Internet regularly. By 2005, the figure had quadrupled to 65 percent. The Internet has also made porn much more available to impressionable kids. How many kids, ages 10 to 17, have viewed Internet porn? According to a recent report in the journal Pediatrics, 42 percent. Advertisement If porn is a significant contributor to social harm, we would expect to see substantial increases in sexual irresponsibility, divorce, and rape since the late 1990s when the Internet suddenly made X-rated material much more available to those who might instigate sexual mayhem, overwhelmingly men. Guess what. Since the arrival of Internet porn: * Sexual irresponsibility has declined. Standard measures include rates of abortion and sexually transmitted infections. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), since 1990, the nation’s abortion rate has fallen 41 percent. The syphilis rate has plummeted 74 percent. And the gonorrhea rate has plunged 57 percent. * Teen sex has declined. The CDC says that since 1991, the proportion of teens who have had intercourse has decreased 7 percent. Teen condom use has increased 16 percent. And the teen birth rate has fallen 33 percent. * Divorce has declined. Since 1990, the divorce rate has decreased 23 percent. * Rape has declined. According to the Justice Department’s National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1995, the sexual assault rate has fallen 44 percent. Taken from Psychology Today 2009
Genuinely did not mean to post that whole thing. Point still stands.
@ TG My short post doesn’t specify porn, but mentions ‘evil ideas and suggestions’ on the internet as luring young and old people into temptation. A schoolgirl in rural Ireland a couple of years ago was hurtfully ‘trolled’ on a chat site and took her own life.
Porn is an interesting topic, suited to a different thread perhaps.
Conor, that is just excusing what they did. That child had a very narrow escape. Would you be so quick to pass it off as youthful confusion if the child had not been rescued safely? Would torture, rape or possibly murder also be explained away? Their plan was evil and depraved and some day these teens will be adults. Where is the magic light bulb that will suddenly turn on revealing to them the horror of what they were planning to do?
Those girls were 13 and 14 and knew better , James Bulgers murderes were only 10 and able to plot and plan what they did . That child was blessed and those girls should be locked up for ever
Gareth, maybe read up about Mary Bell – well before ‘evil internet’
In fairness Mary Bell was subjected to some pretty harmful things growing up.
They should never be allowed have kids or be around kids its sick – no matter what age you are to want to hurt a child – evil monsters !!!
Control your mind (brain) or it will control you!!! There is a perfect example!!
Jesus, it’s Jamie Bulger all over again. That child could have met a frightening end..
I did realise kidnapping was frowned upon by 13 Vincent, hence I’m not the topic of a journal article. These kids will be punished and re educated, clearly necessary. But they’re not demons. Or monsters. Or even evil. That sort of rhetoric leads to dehumanisation, something we’re all accusing them of. You need a clear head to deal with the situation, not a pitch fork. It’s an emotive subject and clearly I won’t be winning this one. Online commentary is fun but perhaps not the arena for debating key aspects of psychology and rehabilitation! After all these kids ARE going to get out.
I wonder if these girls parents are being investigated in some way? That these girls were going to abuse a child they way they had been?
They’re 13 yrs old. Not evil. Just totally confused, misled kids. You’d never suspect two young girls though. Anyone’s capable of going completely wrong I suppose.
We’re the two boys involved in the Jamie Bulger case just confused? No, I don’t think so. This is no different just because they were girls. The things they were researching before hand does not suggest they just wanted to mind her and play with her. They wanted to hurt her. That’s some form of evil.
Did you not no by 13 or 14 it was wrong to go out and try kidnap toddlers?
See that’s just the thing isn’t it, nobody would suspect two young girls. But psychosis knows no gender. Nobody would have suspected two young boys either before the Jamie Bulger case.
Conor
So what age is it exactly that evil kicks in at
At Jeanniejampots, yes the two ten year olds that killed little Jamie Bolger were deeply confused. That’s exactly what they were. What else is there?! Exorcism?! They are 10 year old children, completely incapable of making rational decisions on life and death. That part of the brain doesn’t even begin to develop until late teens, getting more robust in your 20′s. Hence you recruit young kids to fight wars (or believe in religion) not older more rational people. It’s why rational societies have different and far tougher penalties for adults.
One of the Jamie Bulger killers was arrested for having child pornography recently. Some people are broken from the start and it isnt all nurture issues. I wouldnt call it evil but plain dangerous.
Confused? In 2010 Venables clearly still very confused about right and wrong, was sent back to prison charged with downloading child pornography depicting children as young as two years og age being raped by adults. Well he certainly is a reformed character.
have your say